 Hi, I'm Rusty Komori, and this is Beyond the Lines on Think Tech, Hawaii. I was the head coach of the Punahou Boys varsity tennis team for 22 years, and we were fortunate to win 22 consecutive state championships. My book Beyond the Lines is about leadership, creating a superior culture of excellence, and finding greatness, which is what this show is all about. My special guest today is a man of great character, a former highly respected judge known for being tough but fair on crime, and a candidate for Honolulu prosecutor. He is Judge Steve Aum, and today we are going beyond the courtroom. Hey, Judge Steve, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me, Rusty. It's great to be here. I know you grew up in Manoa and Kaimuki. Tell me about what schools and sports you played in. Well, both of my parents were professors at UH, so my brother Robbie and I went to the lab school from preschool on, and then I went for two years to the University of Hawaii, then went to transfer to the University of Oregon, which was a good move. I met my wife, Hounani, you know, 74 Kamehameha graduate, and then we took turns going to law school and then came back here for me with the idea of becoming a prosecutor. Judge Steve, what's the first job you ever had that you got paid money for? Dole Canary. After my sophomore year in high school, I joined, I think, the other 10,000 high school students and going to Dole Canary. And I still remember the first thing I ever bought was a clock radio from Shirokia with my first paycheck. Did you, I heard that you were a taxi driver as well, too. Later on, I drove a cab for Charlie's. Wow. And in high school, I played every sport that University Lab school had virtually. And then after I graduated from high school that summer, I was working nights at Dole. I needed a sport, so I went down to Kalakaua Wreck to learn how to fight. And I did some amateur boxing from there. Ironically, the first time I went to Oahu Prison was for a fight. Wow. You mentioned your wife, Haunani. Can you tell me more about your wife and your son? Right. My wife, Haunani, she joined the prosecutor's office as well. And she was there for nine years. She was then an administrative prosecutor with DCCA. She then became an administrative law judge. And she did that for a decade. So we've had shared interest during that time. Our son, Chris, is now living in the Washington, DC area. He's a writer. That's what's in his heart. And he's very good. I think he'd make a great lawyer, but he has no interest in that as far as we can tell. And Judge Steve, what is your connection to President Bill Clinton? Well, I was a division head at the Honolulu Prosecutor's Office. And the recommendation for who to be the United States attorney comes from the senior senators. And Senator Inouye was interested in a lot of things, but law enforcement wasn't at the top of the list. And so they looked around for a couple of years. And then he asked the Hoy State Bar Association, who would you recommend? They recommended me. And so I didn't know Clinton. I wasn't involved in politics. I was a local guy working at the training police officers, training deputy prosecutors. And the last case I did at the Honolulu Prosecutor's Office was the murder of a police officer. So I then got tapped to be the United States attorney. And the police were thrilled. Wow, that's interesting to see how that all started. And then in 2001, you became a judge. And you quickly had a great reputation of being tough but fair on crime. Can you tell me more about how you were tough on crime? Well, I think part of it was I was the first career prosecutor to be appointed to circuit court in Honolulu. And I had really, you know, it's tempting to work for a few years at the prosecutor's office and then go out and make more money as a defense attorney or in private practice. But my heart was in it. My commitment was in it. So I was a felony team captain. I was head of district and family court. And then when I became US attorney, I was tough but fair there too. So when I became a judge, I had support from the defense bar. I had support from the prosecution. And on the bench, the truly violent and dangerous, the ones who absolutely won't stop stealing, should be sent to prison at sentencing. But fortunately, that's only about 30% or 35% of the defendants at sentencing. That means the vast majority, 65%, 70%, can and should be placed on probation. And we have good strategies to do that. And I was a real proponent of treating people that are appropriate for it compassionately and help them deal with their drug and alcohol and mental health problems. So that's where the balance comes in, doing both sides. Yeah, balance is key. And you also founded the HOPE probation. Can you tell me about that too? Well, the very first week on the criminal calendar, I took Marine Milk's place. And I would see these motions to revoke probation, because most people get placed on probation at sentencing. And we have really good probation officers. They're all social workers from UAH. They really care. But they didn't have any mechanism to have any quick responses if guys screwed up on probation. And so I thought to myself, there's got to be a better way to do it. And I thought, how did my wife and I raise our son, who was 15 at the time, but when he was a little kid? And how were we raised? And if your parents love you, they care about you. But if you do something wrong, they do something about it immediately. And that's how you tie together our bad choice of behavior with a consequence. So I thought if we could give a swift, certain, consistent, and proportionate jail sanction, usually very short, a couple of days, then this might help our defendants succeed. So I worked with Shirley Noye at the probation department, and then all of the criminal justice partners to create hope probation. That's such a great program that you did. It's so necessary. And I want to ask you, Judge Steve, about your thoughts on how some prisoners are being released from prison because of the coronavirus. And then as soon as they get out, they're committing crimes. Well, I think nationally, prisons really became a hotspot in many communities. So the Supreme Court, other people, the public defenders here, were really worried about that happening here. Even though we have a very low infection rate as a state, they were worried about that. So they asked the folks to get involved in doing that. I was really happy that the initial request was just to release people categorically. And that request has turned down. And the special master said, no, it should be a case-by-case basis. And many people got released just because that's the way jails work. People finished their short sentences there. And just so people understand, jail is pretrial confinement, or a place where people do time as a violation of probation. That's OCCC. Prison is multiple-year sentences. So some people were getting released anyway. I think the Honolulu Police Department did a great job of trying to issue citations rather than arrests when they could. Delayed arrests on some other cases so the inflow into the jail was greatly reduced. Then through this process, the prosecution and defense could decide could they agree on releasing some people. And if they couldn't, then it went before a judge to make that call. So it was a combination of factors that did it. But I don't think anyone in the business was surprised that when you release some guys who are in jail, some of them are going to commit crimes. I was concerned when hope people were released, because hope is a model where you have a consequence for every violation. And they need to have that consequence to keep learning about it. That you're an adult, your actions are going to have consequences. So the other thing I think the public doesn't quite realize is people are not really being supervised these days. There are no in-person interviews. If people are released, there's no drug testing going on. I'm happy to see that they've taken a pause now. They've taken a break. Supreme Court says this experiment, this part of it is over, and we can try to carry on. I think we also should be looking at the Department of Public Safety to do social distancing inside, do testing of every prisoner and every guard and every civilian employee. So we can find out for sure what the situation is. Judge Steve, what are your thoughts about how the Black Lives movement will change the criminal justice system? Well, I think it'll probably change it more depending on the city and depending on the culture of the police department, because nobody's perfect. We have a very big police department. I think it's 2,000 uniforms. But the culture is not killing Black people here. And the police officer would be the first to tell you that. Every once in a while, you're going to get a police officer in that bigger group who behaves inappropriately, criminally, and they should be prosecuted. And when I was the United States Attorney, we did that. We prosecuted police officers for corruption. We prosecuted a police officer for brutality, for beating up prisoners. And he went away to federal prison for more than five years. And it's the sergeants at HPD that really are the backbone and the ones that set the tone on the street. So I think our police department, for all the problems you're going to have with that bigger unit, does a good job overall. And they don't have that culture. At the same time, if there are inappropriate things done and you see it in the paper every once in a while, those folks need to be prosecuted and they need to have consequences for it so the public can be reassured that whether it's a police officer or a prosecutor or anybody else, if they break the law, they're going to be held accountable. Yeah, accountability is key. And now that you're a candidate for Honolulu prosecutor, what will you do to restore trust in the prosecutor's office? Well, I think you've hit the nail on the head that this campaign is all about restoring trust to the prosecutor's office. I don't think the public has trust there. I don't think the police department does. And part of it will be creating a culture of doing justice, not winning cases. And there's the great US Supreme Court case, Berger versus the United States, that when I was a supervisor of the district and family court division, where people first come into the office, I would hand that out to all the deputies. We would discuss that these aren't words only. The defense attorney's job, and there's several running for prosecutor, their job is to help their individual client. It's not to reform the system. It's not to try to change. Their job is to help their client. And if I was charged with the crime, I would really want to have somebody devoted solely to helping my case. The prosecutors are in a different position. As this case said, you're to strike hard blows but not foul ones. So you've got to create that culture. At the same time, you've got to train the deputies to be ethical and effective trial attorneys. I did that when I was head of district court. I will do that again if I get in. So the deputies are trained. They've got to be encouraged. I've got a whole raft of people volunteering to come back to the office and help do training if I win. And then they'll be more confident and they can create plea agreements from a position of strength. And at the same time, it's meeting with all the other law enforcement partners to say I'm here to partner with you. Nobody, my parents taught me to treat everybody with courtesy and respect. But also nobody does anything by themselves. It's always working with others. And if you have the right leadership, if you have a spirit of collaboration and you work hard, you can get almost anything accomplished. So I will be a prosecutor who wants to work with the attorney general's office, work with the US attorney's office, work with the courts in trying to make Honolulu the safest place it can be and to treat people fairly. Yeah, and I like that you also in your campaign, you're making a commitment to really put dangerous offenders in prison. That's so necessary. I mean, just for public safety, right? It is. And unfortunately, over the years, the prosecutors have had a knee jerk approach in court of asking for prison for everybody. And that's crying wolf. And the judges do not pay attention as much because it's the same story every time. Or the deputy prosecutor to come into the back in chambers with the defense attorney and say, well, you know our office, I got to ask for prison out there, but I think the guy should be put on probation. Well, what I'm gonna talk to the deputies about is let's identify who are the bad guys, who are the dangerous, violent ones, the ones who won't stop stealing. And then you go all to the map to try to get them in prison. But if somebody is appropriate for probation, ask for probation, that's the right thing to do. Don't worry about CYA, you know, identify it and then talk to your supervisor if you're not sure. You will have more credibility with the judges. And then maybe they'll listen to you more about that because those people should be in prison. Not everybody should get a chance at probation at sentencing. Some people should go to prison right away. Judge Steve, you're also making a commitment to reduce crime in local communities. And I know Chu Lan and Lieutenant Governor Josh Green will absolutely love you for that, right? Absolutely. One of the programs I was most pleased in doing was the Weed and Seed program in Kalihi Palama in Chinatown. And we went and asked the community, what are your biggest crime problems? And they said, we are the experts. I said, yeah, but I live in Kamaki, I don't live in Kalihi. And so they told us what the big crimes were and we addressed those. And they said, you know, I wish we had things for kids to do after school. I wish we had a Head Start program and other things. So I'm really pleased. I was able to take a leadership role in that, but we worked with the prosecutors, we worked with the police department, federal agencies. And together, this whole effort, we reduced crime by 70% in Kalihi Palama in Chinatown over three years. That's from like 7,600 misdemeanors down to 2,400, from 3,000 felonies down to 750. That changed the character of the neighborhood. When we started, local people were afraid to park their cars in Chinatown and go walk. After three years later, they were confident in doing that and a lot of restaurants and bars and hipster joints could open up because the neighborhood was safe now. If I get elected, I will bring that back there. And like we did before, expanded to Kakako and Alamoana. And then I'm thinking Waikiki would be next. After that, it would be working with whatever community on the island wanted to try that strategy. Because it takes work, it takes coordination and but I think it's a great way to try to reduce crime and get the businesses and residents involved as well. No, that's hugely significant. And you've already proved that you're capable and able to do it. And we just need that done in every community. And I wanna ask you, Judge Steve, this is the first time that you're campaigning. And how do you like campaigning and meeting a lot of your supporters and new people? Well, it is something new. And as a former judge, as a United States attorney, I tended to avoid social media. There was Ben Villaflor when I went to fight at Kalakaua Wreck, we're the same age. He was a pro, I was an amateur. So, but we became friends. He's the Sergeant in Arms at the Senate, the State Senate these days, and has been for a long time. But the whole thing that I really enjoyed about campaigning is meeting people. There you see a coffee hour and people get to ask me questions. What about this? What about that? And because I've been involved in the criminal justice system for 31 years, it's given me a much better unique perspective. Because I have to say, if you've only worked at the prosecutor's office, you tend to view things, you see only meet police officers and victims. When you're a defense attorney for years, you're focusing on the defendant. As a judge, I was able to see the whole picture and realize both roles are important. They're very difficult. They're very different. But we need the whole system to work. And this campaign has been great to meet people from all over the island, hear what their concerns are. A lot of them know me from being a judge or a part of the U.S. attorney. So it's great to reconnect with some of it. And with other ones, it's great just to try to explain how the system works and answer their questions and tell them what I plan to do. Having that, seeing the big picture and having the awareness about all of that is so key. And what endorsements have you received so far, Judge Steve? Well, right off the bat, it started with the Chopo, the police union. And they recognized that, I've been there before, I've been a proven leader, I'm gonna be able to hit the ground running on the first day in office. And then after that, the masons, the laborers, the iron workers, the bricklayers, the teamsters, the ILWU, they recognized, as one of them said, you're the only administrator in the group. Running that office, it's got more than 200 employees, there are 105 lawyers, it's the second largest law firm in the state. You've gotta be able to lead. And I did more than, I did 26 jury trials and I was at the prosecutor's office, including five murder cases. I presided at over 200 jury trials as a judge. So I have the chops to be able to talk to them about it and do training in trial advocacy and in ethics. And I think the combination of it is good. And so I've been in competition with my opponents to get these union endorsements and I'm really happy to see so many of them are lining up behind me because they know I can get the job done. I've got the leadership background and I'm willing to do the tough, make the tough decisions and doing it. It's like for Schopel, I had convicted people that were in the police department because they did wrong and the police officers have no problem with that because they don't want bad guys in the department too. And if a person like beats up a prisoner, he should be prosecuted but he also puts every other officer in the area in the difficult situation because they could get prosecuted for not doing something about it. So running a clean department, having the police department lead, Sue Ballard's doing a good job. They're 99% of the police officers are good. We've got to prosecute or kick out the ones that are not. I totally agree with you. And I want to ask you another important question, Judge Steve, how did you like reading my books? They were great. At times I thought we have a mind meld on this. It really was funny because a lot of it is leading by example, treating everybody the right way, being as open and honest as you can about decision making, giving people a chance to prove themselves and testing them. I mean, this is a tough business. People joined the prosecutor's office after watching CSI or all of these one hour TV programs and they don't understand what being a prosecutor is all about. When I was a judge, I would encourage people, if they wanted to go into litigation, join the public defenders or the prosecutor's office, they'll be in court every day and then they can see whether they like it or not. And a few went to civil and about half of the others went to the prosecutors and the defense. And your books talk about leadership, but it's leading by example, it's giving people a chance, it's being honest with them, it's giving them feedback, whether they want to hear it or not, but it's also encouraging them and stressing the good parts of what they're doing and trying to teach by example and teach by catching them doing good things. And I've done all these things with, and I've tried to do that in every job I've had and I think I've gotten better at it by learning from mistakes over the years. Yeah, it's about making a positive impact and choosing better choices and creating that superior culture of excellence. And I liked when I talked with you the other month about, and we could talk on and on for hours and hours because you have that superior culture of excellence. And I wanna ask you, Judge Steve, what's a big challenge that you dealt with in the past that you overcame? Well, I think as, when you're trying new initiatives, that's always gonna be a challenge because change is the hardest thing for people. It gets them out of their comfort zone and in government especially, if you keep doing the same thing, you're never gonna, you know, you're never gonna get blamed, but you're never gonna change the system. So I think we have to use our positions to try to make life better for people. And so, we didn't see it originally, they were saying, oh my goodness, you know, Khalid, Mom and Chad, and I'm, you're never gonna change that. And I was convinced we would. When it came to hope probation, it was trying to get people to do things the new way. Hope is a lot harder than regular probation. But because on regular probation, what most people don't realize is because they're the only sanction they can give on regular probation really is revoking probation and send somebody to prison for five or 10 years. They tend to give people a lot of chances in hope they get a sanction every single time and learn from it. And I was the rare judge that I'd actually, you know, look at research, look at data, and I think criminal justice decision making should be based on research and data and not on anecdote or hearsay or the dreaded, we've always done it this way. And so, you know, as somebody told me, when you start a thing like this and you're leading it, you're gonna be the guy with the arrows in your back because some other people aren't gonna like doing something new. But the beauty is we have great research from, this is a part from all the anecdotal stuff where people are, so many people's lives have been helped. But we have research from Pepperdine UCLA and NYU showing tremendous success for hope probation. And as a nice addition, we asked them, how did native Hawaiians do in hope? And on regular probation, the failure rate is 26% fail at probation and go to state prison for several years. In hope, it's only 15%. And since in hope, the hope judge supervises more than 2,000 felons at a time, that means hundreds of native Hawaiians have succeeded on probation and not gone to prison because they were in hope, which makes me tremendously happy and satisfied that when we bring everybody together and we work hard and we ignore the naysayers, we can get almost anything done. Yeah, no, that's so good. I loved when I looked into the whole probation and everything that you, how you started it and the impact that it's having. And I wanna ask you, Judge Steve, what do you feel the best leaders do? Well, I think they respect their employees. They're willing to take a chance. They set out their vision for what they wanna do and they talk to their employees or the people that are working with them about why they each are important to getting that job done and getting to the point. And so my parents teaching me about treating people with courtesy and respect that really comes into it here. When I was head of district court, a woman came up to me and she, one of the clerical persons and she said, another clerk is teasing me every day about my accent. And she said, I'm Filipino, I have an accent. And she said, this is making life horrible here at work. And so I met with that other clerk as well as the head of the clerical section and we talked about it. And I told her, this is cruel, it's inappropriate, it stops today. And that woman stopped me in the parking lot of the funeral a few months ago and reminded me of that and said, it did stop the very next day and never came back. Well, that's the kind of thing a leader has to do. You have to care about your people, you have to take care of them and you have to bring them along and encourage them. So we're all going in the same direction and we're part of something bigger than ourselves that does good. And the Honolulu CrossFit here can do a lot of good if it's run right and you have the right leadership. I totally agree with you. And Judge Steve, I want to thank you so much for joining me on the show today and sharing your insights. I mean, you truly are a great leader and a man of fantastic character. Well, thank you very much for having me. It's been a pleasure and keep writing some books. Thank you, Judge Steve. Okay, take care. I'll see you on the campaign trail maybe. And thank you for watching Beyond the Lines on Think Tech Hawaii. For more information, please visit RustyKamori.com and my books are available on Amazon and Barnes & Noble. I hope that Judge Steve and I will inspire you to create your own superior culture of excellence and to find your greatness and help others find theirs. Aloha.