 Okay. Well, welcome everybody to our second virtual ways to means committee meeting. We're going to spend the morning talking about education finance and I also have a conversation in the morning. Is that getting out from everybody. Everybody. Okay, so we're going to have a brief conversation about provider tax as well because the Senate acted on that yesterday. That's part of the bill that's coming over and I just want to be sure the committee gets briefed on what's in the Senate bill. And if people just remind people that the house is going to be in session at one o'clock so we'll be finished in plenty of time for people to listen in on that. I'm going to choose to, I'm going to. So any, anything anybody wants to check in on before whoops I just got bumped out, wants to check in on before we get started we're going to start with Mark and we've got Mark Doug Farnham Karen horn and school boards Association and Superintendents Association all lined up to testify. Raise your hand. Anyone. Okay, Mark, I think it's, it's to you. Okay, good morning everybody. I sent social earlier this morning I sent her an education fund outlook. And I also sent an issue brief that sort of outlines the issues. So if you want me to start with the education fund outlook and walk you through that. Yes, why don't you start there and then we'll go to the issue brief because the issue brief is overwhelming. So we'll start with smaller. Whoops. So, all right. I'm not sure if you're looking at it or not but I will assume everybody can see it. So if you take a look at that sheet, and you look at the middle column that should look familiar to everybody. That's that's what we've been using prior prior to this recess of the legislature. And if you take a look at that you can if you go all the way down to the bottom you can see online 27. There's a 36.4 million dollar stabilization reserve. That's a full 5% reserve. And then if you go down to line 31, you can see the 12.9 million dollar surplus that we were anticipating to have available at the close of 2020. So that that's where we were, we were prior to this COVID-19 forecast. So if you then move to the right hand most column, you can see that the only change that we've made there is into the revenues and appropriations is that on line nine, you see a $40 million reduction in education fund sources. That $40 million is the midpoint of the current estimate we have for loss of non property tax revenues which is 35 to $45 million. We're assuming here that we're going to collect all of the education property tax that we have booked on here. So you can see online 10 that total revenue total education fund sources dropped by 40 million to 1.7 billion dollars roughly 1.671 million. And if you got to line 21, you can see that our total uses has been unchanged. So all the action on the balance sheet is taking place on the bottom sections. If you look online 22 you can see we went from a 15.5 million dollar operating deficit to a 55.5 million dollar operating deficit. The amount that we had to transfer from the stabilization reserve to balance the fund to make the 5%, the full 5% reserve goes from 0.7 up to 27.8 taken out of there. And so if you go to line 27, you can see that the current year stabilization reserve has dropped from 36.4, which is a full 5% reserve to 9.3 million dollars, which is a 1.3% reserve. And keep in mind that that's the midpoint of the estimate so it could be based, you know, assuming this, this estimate range is valid, could be up to $5 million more than that in there or $5 million less. If you then jump down all the way to line 31, you can see that the surplus that we were anticipating in FY20 is now assumed to be used to support education fund in 2020. And, you know, if you want to, if you want to just figure out how this works, you can think that 12.9 plus the 27.1 million dollar additional transfer out of the stabilization reserve equals $40 million, which is the amount we needed to cover up on line nine. So, let me see if there's questions. Anyone. Not sanny. One minute here. I've got Robin. Yeah. Go ahead Robin. Sorry just quickly, I just realized we're talking about this current fiscal year. Yes, that's right. So, you know, we have we have information. We have some estimates for what the impact is going to be in 2020 that 35 to $45 million of loss of basically sales tax monies because of decreased demand and that kind of thing. We did not do an FY21 outlook at this point because the revenue loss in FY21 at this point is completely speculative. And I think that's indicated that he thinks it's going to be much more severe than what we're seeing right now for 2020. And that may right now we're only showing a revenue downgrade for non property tax revenues. And we're assuming that we'll be able to collect all of the education tax revenues that we've built for in 2020. That's a fairly safe assumption because most of that money's already been collected. Right. When we get to 2020 2021, then I have a lot much less confidence that we're going to be able to collect all the education property tax money that we built for, because lots of income do layoffs, business losses and everything like that may make it hard for people to make those, make those tax payments in a right. So we're talking about a pretty dramatic drop for the rest of this fiscal year which ends June 30 and not leaving us very much to start the next fiscal year. That's a reserve of we'll have a reserve of 9.3 million if this is how we go. That's correct. We start next year with $9.3 million, which is only a 1.3% reserve. Right. No surplus, no other money. And, and again, there's, there's, you know, we don't know what the revenue situation is going to be. Right, of course. Thank you. I just wanted to make sure I understood the right. Let me see if there's other question. Mark, I'm going to quickly ask you one, the 40 million estimate of the loss of revenue. Does that assume that the sales tax money that's being collections that are being delayed all come in? It does. And so that's another wrinkle. The administration has proposed delaying delaying the collection of the meals and rooms tax as well. Until until June 25. So on this sheet, I'm assuming that even if it's delayed will eventually collect all that money, but that's a risk. We're going to be asking businesses to make four monthly payments on June 25. If they haven't been able to make the first three monthly payments. And it's there that they won't have the money available and they, they could use, even though they're trustee taxes, I believe that there's no requirement that they be segregated or anything. So it's possible that some of those monies could be used to, you know, for payroll, keeping businesses afloat that kind of thing. So there's a risk there. I think Grant Graham can talk, talk about that issue too. And it's not just rooms and meals, it's the sales tax as well, which is larger, right. I wasn't aware of that. I thought it was only the meals and rooms tax. Okay, well changing things are changing fast. So it was both. So we'll find out. Okay. All right. Other questions anyone has remark on the balance sheet. I don't see any. So go ahead and go to the other document. I realized this is a dense document and there's a lot in here, but maybe if I walk you through the points on the summary, and I could answer any questions as I go through that with that, with that work. That's, that sounds fine. And I want to ask people. Excuse me, does everybody have it up on a separate screen or do you need it on the screen as well. I don't know how to ask that question of everyone. But, and go ahead. Okay, so I'm starting at the top on your summary on page one. Non property tax revenues for FY 2020 are now expected to fall between from 35 to 45 million below the forecast. That's the number we just looked at on the balance sheet. In terms of education property taxes, municipalities have already collected. Most of the tax due for 2020. That's about $125 million still outstanding we think that's not that number is not it's a big number but it's not that concerning I don't think I mean even if 1% of that money was not collected. It would be like a one and a quarter million dollar hit on the education fund so it's not huge. I think the bigger concern is that there are a large number of municipalities that haven't collected at all and I think you will see when we get to the next page that there are only two towns that only have two payments. So they have only one half of their education tax liability still outstanding. No, so 62 communities may have it may be an issue for those communities. School districts will need to either reallocate existing funds use reserves or run deficits to cover the cost of any COVID-19 related spending in the current school year. You know budgets are fixed and unless unless schools receive some money from some other additional sources they're going to have to live with what they have. However, I don't think that the services that school districts are currently providing the COVID-19 related services are going to have a huge impact and there may be federal money available for school meals and the administration's indicated they'll be some money available for childcare services that are provided to essential employees and that kind of thing. I don't think that's a huge problem. Fourth bullet is the education fund as we saw is going to run a significant operating deficit in 2020. The projected 12.9 surf plus we were carrying it's gone and most of the stabilization reserve is going to be depleted. So we're going to be starting FY 21 in kind of a weak position. One bit of good news is I learned this morning that depending on federal COVID-19 stimulus package that was agreed to last night I think includes $30 billion for schools. So Vermont's share of that additional state age be available in the current fiscal year to offset some of the issues we've identified here. So Vermont usually receives the minimum payment on distributions and if that if that happens I think we could receive up to $60 million but that's that's so that's not in the bank yet that's that we haven't seen the language. And we don't know if there's any restrictions on how the money can be used or how much each state will actually receive. So moving on to the task that I think you're mainly going to be talking about this morning. I'm sorry. What was that. George. I'm sorry but Mark did you say if we got the minimum amount from the feds, it would be 16 or 60 which did you 6060 60. Thank you. Okay. Moving on then that setting education tax rate parameters the yields, the non homestead property tax rate in FY 2020. Prior to adjournment this session is going to be problematic given the level of uncertainty that we were in right now. There are default parameters in law that were put in place I think two years ago that would set the yields and the non homestead property tax rates at the level they were in FY 2020. There's also been some discussion about setting the yields and non homestead property tax rates at the December one levels, but that's that's something we can discuss further. Part of the reason we can't do much on FY 21 at this point is the COVID-19 related revenue losses are expected to be significantly higher in FY 21. And that applies not only to the non homestead property taxes that were that we're losing this year, but also there's a risk that we won't collect all the education property taxes that we bill for. And reliable estimates are not yet available Tom Covets working on this. They're looking at epidemiological models to try to get a sense of what we're facing over the next few weeks and hopefully we'll have better information on FY 21 soon. Then some other wrinkles in here and you know voter voters have already gone out and approved budgets that are going to increase total education spending in FY 21 by $73 million. And I'm not sure what we can do about that at that point. I mean those those towns we have to revote budgets or I'm not sure what but we know that this may be a significant increased demand for revenue if the school budgets have been approved so far. So I'm not going to stand voters defeated nine school budgets in March, five school districts I think have not yet voted and are planning to vote in April or May, when and how these votes are going to take place and now I'm certain I just read in for month this morning that South Burlington proposed the revoter on their minds so it's going to be a little bit uncertainty around that for towns as well. So these next couple of points are important. The property tax credit for FY 21 is going to be based on calendar year 19 income. So there's going to be no additional property tax assistance available for taxpayers that had COVID-19 related losses of income due to layoffs or business closures. The other side of that and this this is getting far out there but I'll just point it out that means that we're going to get a significant bump in the property tax credit and FY 22, because the FY 22 adjustment will be based on calendar year 2020 income and we're expecting those incomes to fall significantly. And then the last point is that moving the filing deadline from the property tax for the property tax credit and the home or home or declaration as well to July 15 creates a potential problem from municipalities to issue timely education property tax bills in FY 2021. I think the tax department thinks they have a handle on this and I know Doug Farms on this call so he may want to weigh in on that but that's an issue that we flag. Can I interrupt with a question there. We've talked about the fact that they may not be able to get the education bills out timely but the bills are combined still so municipalities are going to have trouble with their own bills as well. But you know that raises another another detail I mean under current law municipalities are on the hook to remit the education property tax revenues that they collect to the state. So if a taxpayer is unable to pay their property tax bill in a timely fashion, the municipality is going to lose the municipal property tax collection but they're also going to have to come up with the money unless something changes and remit the education tax revenue to the municipality's administer the property tax when people don't pay they have the you know they have the authority to go out and put tax means on that kind of thing. So the taxes very much administered locally. So that that's going to that could potentially create another problem for municipalities cash flow problem on top of it. Is it is it possible legal for a municipality to bill separately if they wanted to so they could bill for their own municipal tax on time. I don't know the answer to that off the top of my head I think we have to check. Thanks. So that's a summary of what's in the memo. I go into a lot more detail on other things for people who are concerned about their individual towns and how much property tax they collected now I know that Chloe is working on a document that basically that she provided that chart that's on page two. So we have we have a good idea of who has outstanding liabilities at this point. So, I'm scrolling through this memo there's a phenomenal amount of information in here. And I don't know if people had a chance to take it in before we met. Any questions from anybody. Anybody got a question. Mark are you are you thinking you should go through the rest of your memo or switch to Doug Farnham at this place and combat to the other information. When we've taken in. I mean, if there's no questions that I mean the summary basically is a summary of what's in the rest of it. There's more detail in there and some, you know, information about how we came up with the numbers but I think that what I've gone through so far is probably okay for now. Move on to Doug. Yeah. Yeah, it's a phenomenal amount of work to put all that together. Thank you both you and Chloe. All right, we're going to switch to Doug Farnham. Doug Farnham for you. I'm doing well. Just did just out of habit Doug Farnham deputy commissioner for tax for the record. Right. I think we're streaming so we're probably okay there but. Thank you. I appreciate it and you're not on video right. We have I am not not using video at the moment no I don't care. Okay, good. So go ahead. All right, I don't have a great deal of prepared material I didn't share a document for today. But was hoping to, you know, provide the committee with answers to any questions they might have I know there are a couple of issues during Mr. Perrault's presentation that I could start with as well. One thing I would say is that the issue of whether or not municipalities can now bill separately. I would say that under at least my reading and it would be much better to have, you know, ledged councils interpretation of this but under my reading of 5402 B2. The changes that were made two years ago to the tax billing template. They changed it so that it now says that the education tax may be billed on the same sheet with municipal. I would interpret that to mean that if the towns chose to bill separately for municipal they now have the option where they did not in the past that that depending on how things happen that may be helpful. Right, I think that I at least think that would give them the option to send their own bills to collect the municipal portion. If the homestead is not information is just not complete and not available for them to do a proper billing of that tax. Okay, thank you. To speak to the, the delays, the deferrals, basically the blanket forgiveness of penalty and interest recently announced by Commissioner Bolio. I would say that at this point, our main intention at the department was to relieve some stress and let people know that, you know, the upcoming due date for this month, you know, that actually was today. And for next month on April 25 that they did not have to make those due dates and fear penalty and interest if they missed those due dates. I think as things settled down hopefully there is some settling over the next couple of months will definitely be considering messaging on encouraging especially larger filers to continue remitting people that we believe have the capacity to continue remitting and filing, encouraging them to do so. And in our hope is that we would have those catch up periods before the end of the fiscal year. But I think that also depends on how how this crisis continues to play out, whether or not additional deferrals would be granted or not. So I think that's still something we have to keep an eye on and monitor closely. I had thought that this applied to sales tax as well as rooms and meals. Am I wrong about that? You are not incorrect madam chair it does apply to both sales tax and to meals and rooms tax. And of course the major exposure to the Ed fund is from the sales tax which is roughly 30 million a month at this time of year. Right, so that's a that's a very big impact in fiscal 20 and in fiscal 21, if they're there, if they never pay, if it turns out that they can't pay for whatever. Alright, thanks. Go ahead. So I think the major impacts of the delay of the federal income tax filing and for the income taxes, and the way that flows through to the homestead declarations. Of course, the department will not have a complete file of homestead declarations. We don't anticipate having a complete file before the 15th of July. And then of course we would need time to process but what I can say is that in the in the short term what we're what we'd be focusing on is during the filing season we transmit homestead declarations to the towns on a weekly basis. And we would be continuing to transmit those so we'd be monitoring to see which towns are coming close to having the historical amount of homestead declarations filed. If this if this pandemic, if we do manage to get an under control and things start to normalize in May and June. And I think it might be appropriate for us to start encouraging more people to file their homestead declarations, even though the due date is on July 15th, getting some messaging out letting them know it would, it would be very helpful if they could file early. I think it's a little bit premature for that type of messaging at this point, but I think that's a message we definitely want to have on the board and ready to go out. And that might help mitigate the impact of this where if we're able to get towns substantially complete, then we might be able to get close to that traditional July one calendar. And we could even consider, you know, messaging that's targeted or focused on those towns that that bill early and have traditionally relied on that July billing to start the cash flow starting in August. That would help us, you know, if we're not just blanketing the whole state but if we're focusing on those towns and letting you know they can help their town out by filing that declaration. We might be able to move the process along without any legal changes, but just a little bit of outreach and education on our end. You know how many homestead declarations have already been filed. The last I looked it was right around 70,000. Sorry, I know my keyboard's loud I was just going to type in to look it up but it's right around 70,000 so it most likely hasn't shifted much off that number out of a total of 170,000. And then 100, 120,000 of those have the additional layer of the property tax credit. The homestead declaration is of course important because mostly important for people avoiding the penalty of filing late. And for towns where the homestead rate is significantly different. But in my opinion at least for most people the property tax credit claim is the more financially substantive impact. And that's the document that makes sure we have those in and processed and of course they have more errors and more issues that we have to work through. Let me pause for a second and see if members have questions. Anyone want to get clarification from Doug. Go ahead. I see unmuted. Jim, can you start over. So filing for homestead declaration is July 15, which is the same as filing our income taxes. There's a question that's came up locally about filing for income sensitivity is the drop dead date for that still in September. Right, so the dates in law for that. The date for the drop dead date for that is still at this point, October 15. Okay. Thank you. That's the clarification. Thank you. Okay. Let me see if there's anyone else. The question. No. I think Mark wanted to say something. Oh, I'm sorry. Mark, go ahead. Do you mind if I address a question to Doug? Of course not. Okay. So I was unaware that the sales tax on collections were also going to be deferred. And I just note that the last payment to the school districts for the fiscal year is due on April 30. And that payment includes not only the education payment, but also one third of the categorical aid that goes out to schools for special education, transportation, small schools, that kind of thing. And I'm wondering if delaying the collection dates for the sales and use and the meals and rooms tax until June is going to create a cash flow problem for the Education Fund. Doug, you want to weigh in? Are you there, Doug? muted. Sorry. Unmute you. Okay. There we go. Now we're unmuted. Sorry. I haven't been involved in the cash flow discussions. I think that's an excellent question. And I can make sure that primarily AOE. Agency of Education monitors the cash flow. And I think that's a great question to raise, Mark. What, one thing we, I did say, you know, sales tax is $30 million. But the majority of that sales tax is raised through larger sellers. And many of those are actually not experiencing a downtick in business, particularly in the remote sales sector. So we will be running an analysis on the sales tax returns as soon as they're through our system. And trying to get a picture of, okay, what exactly did this deferral? How much money did it actually shift? In our analysis, to this point, we've been doing worst case, you know, assuming that no one's going to pay and everyone's going to shift it back. But I think from March, we, we already got about half of the $30 million. From people that had, had already seen it. We already got about half of the $30 million. From people that had had already filed early. So it won't cost us the full amount of revenue that we would expect and we're going to try to refine that as quickly as possible. And then make sure that AOE has that for the cash flow and impact analysis, I think that particularly if the decision to defer causes a cash flow issue, I think our next step at the tax department would be to reach out to particularly larger vendors, larger businesses that we believe should still have the capacity to file and remit those taxes and encourage them to do so. Or the commissioner actually does have the discretion to remove the forgiveness for those particular tax payers, because it could have been structured as a, you know, a capped deferral. But and I guess I would say we can make adjustments as necessary. Anybody want to jump in? Any hands raised? So, Doug, I'm just going to underscore a concern that I think many of us have is that this is not just a cash flow question. But if businesses are asked to pay three months when they can't pay two or four months when they can't pay two, we also have a potentially large loss of revenue, which is basically just going to flow to property tax payers. So I want to underscore that concern. I think that's a very legitimate concern, Madam Chair. And I think that the risk of not just a portion of the deferred revenue going into default, essentially, I think that it would be very fair to quantify that as part of a physical analysis going forward that that while we felt like the deferral was the right thing to do to help from honors through this crisis. It does add an increased layer of risk on the financial end for the state. Anyone else want to jump in? Anything else you want to add, Doug? I would just add that in particular with the billing in July and August, we're going to be continuing discussions with the League of Cities and Towns. We're very sensitive to doing everything we can to limit the disruptions to the towns because of all of the other impacts the towns are likely to face. So I think we'll be continuing to come up with strategies from my initial take is that we should have the discretion to mitigate the situation without asking for something in a bill. So I'm very hopeful that we'll be able to minimize the impact of the calendar shifts to the towns. And at this point, we don't have a request for any particular new authority or anything as far as that July and August billing goes. Can you tell me what you mean by mitigate the effects? I don't know what you're talking about. What you might be talking about. Can you be more clear? So traditionally, and we do still have in law that we have to transmit the property tax credit claims by July 1st. So we will comply with that. We'll transmit everyone who has filed and is timely. Well, is actually ahead of the due date at that point. Is part of our essential services plan will be continuing. We've set up examiners to be able to function remotely. So we'll have a good portion of our staff working remotely processing homes and declarations and property tax credit claims from home. And we'll continue to get those through so that we won't run into a situation where we get to July and our staff has been working remotely and we have a huge backlog. That's what we're, we're working actively to avoid that we have more than half the department working remote right now. So we're going to make sure that we have those credit claims and those homes and declarations. Processed so that even if we do get to the July 15th timeline, we don't do date, we don't have a deadline and we're hopeful, hopeful that we'll be public processing a small number at that point. I did just pull the most recent figure is 78,000 homes and declarations as of last night. So as we get closer to May and June, if, if things are starting to level out a bit on the coronavirus, we would message, you know, encourage people to file those forms so that we can get the property tax bills going. And as we get closer to July, we would likely focus additional messaging on those 70 approximately 70 towns that bill in July, and do our best to help them help the residents of those towns get the paperwork in so that those towns can bill. It's something we don't have absolute control over but I think that we can. I think that we can get very close to the mark without any changes in law. And I think that any changes in law in this area would be very disruptive, I think in the long term and, and wouldn't really gain us very much from what we're able to do on our own. Thank you. Let me see if there's questions. I don't think so. Deb, thank you very much. And we're going to hear from the league I don't know if you, I know you've been in conversation with them but you're welcome obviously to listen in if that would be helpful so Janet, I don't think that Karen has called in yet. I know that Jeff is on So is Susa Galski from the school boards association so why don't we move to her. Is Sue on now. Yeah, was anyway. I'm not seeing her on my list. He's at the bottom and she's muted. There she goes. I'm muted. I just unmuted myself thank you. All right, welcome. Thank you very much. Good morning everyone. This is my first time testifying to your committee on the new wish executive director for the Vermont school boards association. I don't have prepared material to give you this morning, but just wanted to give you just a brief update on on what's happening at on our end. I would just say that Vermont's education community is sharply focused on the urgent issues that are posed by this pandemic, and it's really an all hands on deck situation with very long hours and new issues that are coming up by the hour. The information that was presented by Mark Peral is obviously very concerning the VSBA is working to support school boards in their role in responding to the coronavirus and making sure that they are staying connected with their superintendent. Is their chief executive officer of their district and is is the designated person in the chain of command to really make the most urgent decisions that need to be made at this time. So if you, I think Jeff Francis will be able to fill you in on a few more operational questions. I would just say that the three areas that are being focused on right now are school meals which many are being delivered by school bus or at designated locations childcare for essentially employees and then transitioning to some type of online or remote learning or or paper packets for students. So if there are any questions that you have I'm happy to answer them, or happy to gather any information for you that you think will be helpful to your committee. Great. Let me excuse me. Let me see if anyone has questions. Pardon me. I don't see anyone with their hand raised except Robin. There she is. Okay, go ahead Robin. Thanks, I guess I have to wave bigger. Well, I slide by so just so I slide them across the top here. And if I am at the other end I don't see you. I have my gallery view so I see everybody. So, I learned last night that my school district is having a very difficult time standing up childcare for essential workers the other school districts in Addison County are set up but Addison Central has not been able to because the private childcare organizations all said they would not be able to help out. Is this are you finding this around the state or is this just us or what what happens when they can't set up some childcare. Well, I think it definitely is variable from district to district. And I know I listened in on two superintendents who are testifying to the Senate Ed committee yesterday, and they were both working through the situation and able to do it. But there was concern about the sustainability of of it because of less people being able to provide the care due to concerns for their own health or actually the fear that some people will be sick and not be able to provide the care. And Jeff testifies he may be able to give you a little bit more information. Okay, so people are actually allowed to opt out of providing this I guess I didn't that didn't strike home till last night. I would take a look at the AOE guidance I don't. I can't tell you right now that they're able to opt out of doing that. Thank you. Let me see if there's other questions. I'll sit here a little hidden for me but okay. All right. Thank you very much. It's nice to meet you in this kind of odd way but but I appreciate you're being available and will continue to welcome your input if you have other things that you want to share with us. So I'm going to move I guess to Jeff Francis. Now, I still don't see whether Karen is on but let's talk with Jeff anyway. Good morning. Morning Jeff. Thank you for allowing us to participate this morning. I can follow up on what Sue Seglowski said a little bit. I think it's fair to say that since the couple of days before the decision was made to close schools. All educators and particularly the folks that I work with the superintendents and their staffs have been going long hours at high rates of speed in order to try to contend with all the changes and I know that you all have a full appreciation for that because you're both participating in it and witnessing it. I have started to pay attention to the type of information that Mark provided, although I will say that I found his briefing extraordinarily useful to contextualize where we are right now and where we will be headed. Although that briefing papers marked draft, I do intend to send that out to superintendents today because I think as they contend with the core services that Sue Seglowski spoke of, which are maintenance of learning childcare and I do have information on that providing meals and I would and I would add a fourth, even though it's not among the formal order from the governor. And that is trying to stay on top of the tremendous array of information and more specifically the changes to that information that are affecting what school districts do on a daily basis. So, your colleagues in the House Education Committee are going to talk Friday afternoon with six superintendents from around the state, in order to get an update on how things are going in terms of the immediate application and the four areas of focus that they're organizing their testimony into are, as I said, a continuity of learning, providing food services, which has been a I would say, societally a gratifying process to watch because the schools who are adept at providing food have figured out all forms of creative ways to continue to do so through this period of crisis. The third is childcare and as representative shoe asked, that is a lot less consistent to place from place to place. And the reason is because, although school districts work with kids, they, they, in many instances are not in the childcare business so I think that the administration correctly recognize that if we're going to continue to provide supports for essential workers, you needed to combine forces between the private childcare providers and the public schools, because on a region-to-region basis, the delivery of those services play out or are provided differently. What we're seeing is that as the realities and perceptions of the crisis magnify, it's harder and harder to get people to come to work understandably. So in guidance that Secretary French just sent out moments ago, he talks about the fact that childcare for essential persons is an essential service under the addendum that was issued by the governor yesterday, but he acknowledges in that communication that the stay-at-home order significantly disrupts the ability to operate these services. So the order that came or the clarification that came from Secretary French just moments ago includes this phrase, school districts may continue to operate these programs on a basis based on community need. So there is an evenness around the state. I think that it's a challenge that many, many people are constructively engaged in, but it's going to continue to be a big challenge as we all work together to navigate this. And the fourth category that these superintendents are organizing their comments around goes to what they refer to as other stressors. And the other stressors provision includes topics like how to contend, and some of these I'm going to just say are, I think in the total scope of the challenge, they're not all created equally. One of the things they cite, which the General Assembly is already trying to respond to, is how school boards govern through this period, the fact that many school employment situations and circumstances and requirements are contractual by nature. So there's a major workforce, all of whom are affected by this, the outbreak in different ways, employee anxiety, as a lot of responsibility has fallen on the school system. So I won't persist in that explanation, but as you can imagine, I'm sure, since the governor proclaimed the first emergency, it's been really rapid response, rapid change, trying to get organized and contend with a multitude of issues that school districts have not had experience contending with before. The fact that they operated a school systems gave them some contextual expertise in terms of how to work with systems and personnel. But this as you know is something that they haven't experienced. So, you know, I, as you know, we're going to go through a period of transition I think that as folks get organized, even as demands increase and change. I think it's appropriate that that school leaders in particular work with the sources of information that they have like the General Assembly, and get ready for the, for the days ahead. So in some general comments I can answer any questions. I could also talk about some of the cost stressors that that schools are experiencing, but I'm not sure that you need to use your committee's time to do that although I do have a lot of anecdotal information that I've collected about what superintendents in particular are thinking about. I'm going to just see if there's questions about what you've said so far I think I might like to spend a couple minutes on the cost stress stressors because those are all things that affect the revenue that's needed but Before I look around for questions. I just want to acknowledge what you said about schools being on the front line here and how amazingly quickly you've had to adapt and improvise and of aid and everything else with probably one of the most next to health care at the moment the most important government function that we've got. And I've got grandkids who are affected by this I know we all have family members who are and it's a it's a really major undertaking. Let me see if I've got questions from anyone. Here I got Jim Maslin there. Go ahead Jim. Yeah. You're aware I'm sure and I'm just adding a little comment that some kids are very good auditory learners others more kinesthetic others more visual. And I commend you for anything any of the schools can do to try to adapt to different students different learning styles. Yeah, my response to that is, you know, as your chair representative Ansel pointed out. The folks that are I mean I can't tell you how impressed I am with everybody who's working in the education system so I'm closely connected to 52 superintendents. And I start to get email communications at 530 in the morning, and it's going to 1130 at night. I'm doing my best to be very, very responsive to all of them but you know they all operate in different ways and, and they are they have turned into this and extraordinary ways. I'll leave it there. I also am starting to see examples of work that is reflective of the importance of continuity of learning that is illustrative of the fact that that many, many teachers have a really close connection to their classrooms and their kids. So these folks are true public servants, and they're doing a lot their level best at a time when quite frankly they're many of them are frightened. So that's a story I think that will be told in the future with regard to the particular learning style question. Principles Association, and there's an association of curriculum leaders in addition to the NEA, I think are going to start to roll out more useful approaches in terms of staying connected with kids in what now appears to be a more prolonged period of learning So there's great reasons to celebrate the contributions of educators and families with regard to these kids. That stated, there are also tremendous areas of concern right so not every child in this state comes from a healthy home background. The socio economic disparities in the state are stark. The ability to convey learning when kids are not in school in some ways is relying on technological capacity. So I won't persist here but you know if you if you just took a step back and said, how complex can this be. I think that we all of us including myself probably have a tendency to understate the complexity of it. Let's see if there's other questions. Thank you. Yeah. I'm getting a feedback again. So I think I should ask if we could, I don't know how long a break a 10 minute break is that right. Is that what you think Karen is trying to call in right now, if we could just give her a moment. Oh okay, you don't want you don't didn't want to do a pause then you want to do the you want to switch to Karen. If she can make it in what do you think. That's fine. Yeah. Jeff, I want to thank you. And I expect will probably be needing to talk to you again. I really, I want you to convey the appreciation that we have to the folks that you work with. Well, likewise back to you and if it, if you if you want me at some point to talk about the observations from the field in terms of the concerns of observations they have about the those cost stressors. Yeah, I think I think I would probably like to reschedule that I'm going to get crushed for time because of no problem that we're going to be on the floor but let me to join you. I'm going to stand by and listen. Great. Thank you. Okay. So we're going to try to get Karen and it looks like Joey has a question. Joey. Go ahead. Can you hear me. Yeah. I just was actually wanted to ask Rob and how she gets to the gallery where she sees everybody. How do we do that. Well, on mine, it's the upper right hand corner. If you move your mouse around. And I've been the right hand corner mine says speaker view now but if because that's because I'm on gallery but there's like nine dots. Okay, I don't know. I don't have that. Well, we'll have so she'll give you a call and see if you can. All right, thank you. I didn't mean to interrupt, but I thought that I so dearly want to see all those beautiful faces of the ways and means committee. Yours might be on the bottom to not every computer set up. Yeah, I sort of looked I've sort of looked around. Thanks, Rob. We are going to get better every time. Yes. And Janet, did I were you. Were we going to have some sort of tutorial in remote voting. Yes, we were. The moment waiting. Because we need to. I've got a few. It's joey's. It's me. Sorry. Joey, if you. Newt. Yes. Okay. All right. I am on mute. Okay. Okay. Good. All right. We were going to do the training. We decide they're not ready to do it. And it has to do with the remote voting that the, is going to be the subject of the discussion at one o'clock on the floor. So, so we, we will get to that. Sorry. I mentioned it yesterday and forgot to say it wasn't going to happen today. Janet. Karen is on now. Okay. Okay. Let me see if I can find you on my list here, but. Welcome to the committee. We're glad you were able to get through to us. And thank you. Ready to, ready to listen. Okay. Thank you. Can you hear me? Yes, I can. Okay. Very good. Okay. Okay. So thank you very much for, for taking the time. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the updated memo. Just, I think about an hour ago. From the school yard. Thank goodness for school yards and hotspots. And so the, the, it sort of goes through what kind of reduced revenues. Towns are anticipating. What our increased needs are. And then what to do. So I'd like to go through those if I can. That'd be great. Thank you. Okay. So, uh, cities and towns are expecting reduced revenues. Um, from more than the normal number of requests for abatement of property taxes and fees. So the fees would be fees to our wastewater, um, water supply, any of those kinds of things that are user fee based. Um, and, uh, the argument, um, would generally be hardship or that taxes are quote, manifestly and just in the face, unjust in the face of this recession, the upcoming recession. Um, they're expecting late payment of tax and fees in addition to tax and fees. They're expecting increased delinquencies on property tax payments. Um, and fees again. And then, um, there, there's the possibility that properties would meet. Sort of your general under normal circumstances, qualifications for tax sale. And the town's going to have to address that. And we anticipate that select boards will need to modify their general policy on tax sales in this situation. And even after, probably after the emergency declaration is over, because there is going to be a tail on people's inability to pay. And, and then we, uh, expect that there will be a lot more grievances of property values. Again, based on reductions due to a likely recession. Um, Towns and cities. Um, there are also anticipating significantly reduced revenues from local option taxes, which is the same situation that, that you had presented to you yesterday, um, regarding the states, uh, sales, meals and rooms, alcohol taxes. Um, we have heard from small businesses that they're going to need to choose between making payroll or paying, um, sales, meals, rooms and alcohol taxes for the previous month. That would be February. And then when they choose payroll, this is not necessarily a municipal issue, but something that we're hearing about at the local level. But when they choose to pay payroll, um, they'll be in arrears on taxes that are payable to the state. Um, are you still hearing me? Yes, I do. Okay. Okay. Okay. I'm just checking. Um, if you want to pause, why don't you've got another couple of paragraphs. Why don't I pause there and see if there's questions. Okay. So you go ahead and finish this, this section. Oh, okay. Sorry. So, um, then towns and cities, um, uh, As I mentioned, increase will. Expect increased grievances of property values. Um, when the property market takes a downturn, um, that might be happening already. I'm not really sure. Um, generally speaking under ordinary circumstances, hearings for grievances need to be held by June 19th in towns of fewer than 5,000 population. And by July 9th for towns of more than 5,000 population. Um, I think those are some deadlines that are likely to move. Um, and then as a result of, um, Severely reduced revenues, towns and cities are going to need to borrow likely in anticipation of taxes. And that is designed to be short term borrowing. But it may be necessary to borrow for an extended period of time. And towns will need to repay those loans with interest. Again, having pretty significant ramifications for the municipal budget. Uh, we hear from the bond bank Michael gone that, um, municipal capital markets are shut down and that banks are really the only option for towns to borrow right now. And they're also the only option for anybody else who wants to borrow. So, um, I'm not sure a what kind of lines of credit might be out there or how long they might be available for. Uh, we understand again from Michael gone that, um, right now the Vermont banks say that they're in fairly good shape, but we kind of anticipate that they'll be in good shape until they aren't. Um, And, and also we're not really sure what the total municipal need might be for short term financing. Uh, we are working with Michael and with state treasurer, Beth Pierce, to try and get a better fix on that. We're going to be querying towns about what they think. But of course it's just going to be an estimate, um, because really no, no one knows what the full impact. Um, will be or how long this. Situation is going to last. It could be quite some time. So I will pause there. Good. I'm just scrolling through to see whether people have questions. Um, anyone. Jump in. No, I think no questions at the moment, Karen. So why don't you continue? Okay. So I, um, The next section has to do with increase needs and just to sort of give the committee a picture of what we are looking at. Um, cities and towns are obligated to continue to provide water and wastewater services, despite non payment of bills. Uh, that was re emphasized in the bill that the Senate passed yesterday. I think it was just yesterday. These days are long. Um, Law enforcement presence is recommended to be highly visible in communities for those towns that have law enforcement. Um, Or that are, uh, Working with the sheriff's department that that's kind of a recommendation from the public safety, um, Department at the state. Uh, And then emergency medical services, as I'm sure you all are very well aware are incredibly stressed right now. Uh, Costs will likely increase in order to provide protective equipment, provide timely response to calls. We hope that we can keep that up. And to, um, Assure that staffing sufficient when the need. Is there. Uh, we are enacting mutual aid agreements between towns. Most of our towns are. Ensured by the VLCT property and casually liability insurance fund. And so, uh, it would be very easy for a mutual aid agreement to be. Uh, Signed amongst all of those communities and. And insurance would not be a problem. Or we do have a sample mutual aid agreement that is on our website that is written fairly broadly. So that any town, um, Whether in or not in passive would be able to, uh, Have assurance that there would be coverage when that was necessary. And then, um, We're being asked. Well, towns are being asked what they're doing currently around Landlord and tenant issues. It's interesting that this was a big issue in the legislature. Um, just a couple of weeks ago around rental housing and, um, Town health officers and, and what, um, They were being able to do. I think town health officers and Municipal boards of health are also going to be asked to address a number of issues related to the whole, um, Public health crisis that we've got going on now. And we sort of don't know exactly what all that will look like. And then, um, we just have your ordinary business needs that need to Be net, uh, as well as payments for outstanding bonds that they Already have lease payments, matching funds for grants and, And things like things like that. So I just, I did just kind of want to give you a picture of what It's looking like at the local level right now. I don't know if there are questions about that. Let me go look and see. Um, I don't see anybody, but I'm going to scroll down here. Nope. Okay. Go ahead. All right. So, um, you've heard about some of these statutory issues already from Commissioner Bolio, um, And, um, Mark Pearl. Steve Klein and Graham. Uh, Firstly, as a result of the filing deadlines for income taxes, Moving to July 15th, the filing deadline for homestead declarations is Also moved to July 15th. Uh, we have about 70 towns that have filing deadlines. Remaining for this current year. So we have, um, Some towns have like a May one or June one payment on the last Installment of their, uh, property taxes. And as you discussed yesterday, Um, I don't know if you've heard about that. Um, I don't know if I, if a town got, If the town's payment date, for instance, Was October one or November one. They're in good shape. But if they had installments that are extending. April, May, June. There's going to be problems with that. And then, um, For the new fiscal year. Ordinarily the tax department sends out the grand list and, Um, and tax rates, uh, July one, And then not even going to be getting the homestead filings until July 15th. So that sort of bumps everything. And a lot of towns actually have their first installment payment in July. So that, that whole timeline is going to need to be Massaged. Um, And towns are going to need some authority, Um, to do that. Um, Which I think they may have maybe. Have in the, um, Senate bill that was passed yesterday. We need to look a little more closely at that. But I do think that is something they'll be able to do. In any case, it's going to, um, It's just going to sort of compound the issue of, uh, Reduced revenues overall when you're, um, you know, And then the town has to borrow again longer in order to, um, Make up the difference. Yeah, Borrowing unit. Yeah. Just a couple questions. Um, what, uh, What is it in the Senate bill that you were referring to? Um, But you thought was in there. I didn't follow what you were. Oh, I'm sorry. So there is a section in the Senate bill. section in the Senate bill. I don't have it right in front of me right now, but that allows municipalities to move deadlines for things during this particular crisis. And it talks about licenses, permits, and I forget what the third word is, but I will send you that language to take a look at it. It's not, it's very general language. It's not specific to financial issues. Okay. And it also says that municipalities may move those deadlines for only municipal matters, right? So if it's a state deadline for a permit or whatever, we have no ability to address that. It's just for municipal. So. And then my other question, I don't know if you heard me asking Mark earlier, or Doug, I guess it was, if the, if we're late, you know, if we don't have the information together to do the Education Tax Billing until, I don't know, July, August, whatever, is it possible? I think it's legal, but I don't know if it's functionally possible for the municipality to issue a tax bill for the municipal tax on your, you know, early enough, so at least your cash flow on the municipal tax isn't affected. Is that something that you're looking at? The thing that we've talked about and has been suggested to us by a few towns, and I think that that would make sense. I'm not sure if that, I'm not sure if the law allows for that right now. We think it does. Yeah, we think it does. Yeah, we're not sure what we think it does. If it doesn't, we can make it possible. And then the question is whether you can functionally do it. But it would be if you don't, you don't need to have your municipal tax slowed down by the fact that we're slow. Right, right. Well, that would be, I mean, that would be awesome. And, and so then the question that I need to put out to the, to the towns is, is it, is it feasible? I think it is. But I mean, I'm just saying that right now. But seems to me that it would be, but you'd be sending out an extra set of tax bills. But in the long, which might also be confusing to, to people who think that they're paying their, you know, their property tax. But I think those are issues that can be surmounted. Okay, thank you. Other questions? Can any members have? I'm going to look through the list here. See if anybody's raising their hand. Yep. That's what I see. Okay, go ahead, Karen. Okay. So the next thing that I have in that memo, and just before I got on the phone, I was corrected by a couple of towns. The statute requires towns and cities turn over one half the education property tax to the agency, well, to the state, June 1 and half December 1. So I should know this. Mark me knew this, but towns send their education dollars, which are not the full vote that goes to a school, but they send their education tax dollars to the school, not to the state. Right? Want to jump in? Oops, you're muted. Anyway. Oh, is that okay? So yeah, can you repeat the question? I'm sorry. So I was told by a couple of towns just before I got on the call that they actually send their education property taxes directly to the school, to their school. They don't send them to the state. Yeah, it's actually the towns that are only are able to raise less than their school spends. We'll raise the money back it and then send it to their school districts on three dates that are set forth in law. The only towns that make a payment directly into the education funds, as I know, are those towns that raise more on their homestead and non homestead property tax than their school spend. Okay, so do they I should know this. I'm sorry to take your time right now, but do those schools that pay more than their school budget, do they send to their school and to the state? Yes, I believe so. Yeah, they'll send what their schools need from the education payment. And then the remainder goes back to the education fund and those two payments. I think those two payments differ from the other ones because towns that were able to raise more money are able to bank that money and use over cash flow and collect interest on it and that kind of things. And that was put in when x 61st passed, I think. Okay, thank you. So in any case, there are penalties for not sending your education property tax dollars where they need to go on time. And that's a considerable concern for municipalities right now because they're not going to be able to make up the difference if they're if they're receiving, you know, less money from in property taxes overall. So that's an issue. And then if towns stabilize taxes right now, they're they need to make the education fund whole. And again, that would be really difficult for towns to do. And that's why you actually don't see a lot of general generally don't see a lot of tax stabilization on the part of towns or property taxes all together. So then I want to stop there. I'm a pause and see if people have questions. No, I don't think so. Go ahead. Okay. So then just a couple of thoughts with respect to bonding. Towns and cities, there were quite a few of them that did pass bond farts on town meeting day, which amazingly is only a couple of weeks ago. And that those are mostly for infrastructure projects of wastewater upgrades, water supply, those kinds of things. They do so they receive the authority to borrow on town meeting day, they're not obligated to actually go out and do the borrowing within any specific period of time. And in fact, right now, I don't think they'd be able to, but neither would they want to because the markets are so volatile. And again, the revenues are sort of uncertain. The municipal revenues to pay back those bonds. So I think that even if your town did pass a bond on town meeting day, no action is going to be taken for quite some time. And then what to do and these are just some thoughts. And one that I did not put in there was what you mentioned, Madam Chair, about billing separately for municipal and education taxes. We do think there needs to, we need to somehow figure out what to do about Homestead filings in July 15th. Commissioner of Bolio. And I sort of discussed last evening, whether a public outreach campaign asking people to file if they were able, file their Homestead Declaration if they were able, would help with some of that issue. Another possibility might be if you are not changing your status from last year's Homestead Declaration that you might in this year might not need to file again. I guess there have been some difficulties with that in the past that the commissioner could discuss with the committee, but that might be be a way to get most of the Homestead status before the July 15th deadline. And then so one suggestion also, because we asked, we're thinking that towns will get asked to abate both school taxes and the municipal taxes. And one suggestion is that if towns were allowed to do that, they would only be allowed to abate an education tax in the same proportion and for the same period of time as the municipal tax. And that's just a thought at this point. I know it's pretty radical, but we'd be sort of interested in what the committee thought about that idea. And then making sure that if education property taxes are not paid due to delinquencies, the law emphasizes that the town isn't obligated to make the education fund whole. I think that the statute says, I should say I'm not a lawyer, but I've got back up in the office. I think that the statute says that if there's nonpayment of taxes, municipalities put the dollars into the municipal tax first and the education tax second. But again, I would defer to mark on or whoever on on that front in terms of what it says now. And then finally, I give you the link to our frequently asked questions on financial issues during COVID-19. We just put this particular document up on our website yesterday. And then we do have a page on our website for COVID-19 issues. And we've got frequently asked questions about a number of different aspects of this whole situation, open meeting, public records, human resources, and those kinds of things. And if you're curious, feel free to go there and look those up. Karen. Thank you. Abby Shepard just sent me an email basically agreeing with Doug Farnham about the the legality of having the towns do separate bills. And I forwarded it to you, Karen, so that you can look at it. Oh, excellent. Thank you. You know, I see this is not not simple, but it might be something that would be useful. So opportunity discussion. Let me see if there's questions from anybody on the committee. No, no questions. Okay. So Karen, thank you. I know towns are having to deal with a tremendous amount. I've heard from online my towns about the challenges and appreciate how hard this is and how much people are working to try to keep things functioning. Thank you. Well, thank you very much. I will stay on the call, but I'll mute myself. Okay. I think as exciting as it may be, we may be shifting to provider tax. So, so. Oh, okay. Never mind then. If you want. But let me let me check with Sorcia and see where things are. So what I'd like to do is stop the live stream. Everybody can stay on the call and then mute your video and your sound and then we'll return. I don't know Janet and 1145 with the provider tax or 1140. So, so Jan is here. Are we waiting for her? Are we? I don't have any of the documents. Okay. Okay. So I need a moment to get set up. We will do a pause. Don't hang up, please, because it takes a while to get people back on. So just mute, stop your video and mute and we'll be back. And how long, Sorcia? 1140. 1140. Okay. Thank you. See you on a minute. This afternoon about or tonight or whenever tomorrow, as soon as we can about what we're doing and how to call in. So if we could go ahead and get started. Jen or Nolan, I'm not sure which of you wants to, we're only looking at the provider tax unless there's other tax issues in the bill, but that's the one that I'm most focused on. Okay. Hi, this is Jen. I think I'm unmuted. So yes, I think the main question that affects this committee is the provider tax, which is now section two. And I'm just trying to think of the differences from what you sent over. Well, understand that the committee never really had the provider tax in front of it, because that happened if you remember sort of last minute in another bill. So if you could, I think we got briefed, but we didn't really do a lot of work on it. That's right. Okay. Good point. Remind us the status of the bill. So it's sure. Okay. Thanks. Sure. So the overall idea behind a lot of what's in each 742 is giving flexibility to the administration to respond to issues that may come up around the, well, in dealing with COVID-19. And so this piece of it was to give some flexibility to changes to the provider tax provisions that apply to different classes of healthcare providers, so that they might not have to pay the full amount or they might get to pay on a different schedule than normal in order to provide them and ensure that they have additional cash flow that they may need. So when we had briefly looked at the language, remember it was that we were all together, there was language that would allow originally would allow the Secretary of Human Services to wave, modify or postpone all or a prorated portion of provider taxes and your committee broke out and treated a little bit differently, the hospital piece than the other providers. So you had no waiver authority on the provider tax for hospitals, but modification authority for hospitals and then the wave modify or postpone for the others. And then I think after we talked about it in committee, some additional work was done that would add in some approval processes for the Joint Fiscal Committee. So it would require the Secretary if the Secretary proposed to take some action on the provider tax to provide to the Joint Fiscal Committee, the Secretary's rationale for exercising that authority, including the balance between the fiscal impact of the proposed action on the state budget and the needs of the specific class or classes of providers for which he was changing the provider tax, and then also provide to the Joint Fiscal Committee a plan for mitigating the fiscal impact to the state. And then if the Joint Fiscal Committee approved that plan for mitigating the fiscal impact to the state, then the Secretary could take the action on the provider tax unless some part of the mitigation plan required approval of the emergency board, and then it would have to go through before the Secretary could take that action. So that is the language that was sent over from the House, and there were a couple of changes made on the Senate side and what the Senate passed. The first being that this language would apply this authority to make changes in the provider tax would apply not only during a declared state of emergency as a result of COVID-19, but also for a period of six months following the termination of the state of emergency so that flexibility would last longer. And then the other change was to take out specific reference to postponing payment of the provider tax in looking more at the language. We realized that the it's really the Diva Commissioner who sets the schedule and who has existed authority to variations from the payment schedule and to waive late fees. If somebody pays if a provider pays their tax late, so between the ability to modify the payment schedule and to waive late fees, it seemed that the commissioner already had the authority to postpone payments or allow postponement of payments, but not to waive or waive payment or modify the amount. So what came over from the Senate then would say during a declared state of emergency as a result of COVID-19 and for six months after the Secretary of Human Services may modify payment of all or prorated portion of the hospital provider tax and may waive or modify payment of all or prorated portion of the other provider taxes. If two conditions were met, we no longer needed to say if there was a state of emergency declared because there has been one. So the condition is necessary to preserve the ability of the providers to continue offering necessary health care services and the Secretary has obtained the approval of the Joint Fiscal Committee and the Emergency Board as set forth in subsections B and C, which is the part that says get approval for the mitigation plan and if it requires any of it requires the board authority or e-board approval, then get the e-boards approval as well. Okay. Let me see if there's questions. Anyone have questions about this? Jen, this is going to be on the floor in the house. Yes, that's my understanding. This is part of H742, which is one of the two bills that is or is the main emergency response bill for COVID-19. Okay. And the committee members want to ask anything or Nolan, did you have anything that you wanted to weigh in on? It's amazing how much has changed between today and when we first looked at this. Let me see if anybody has got a question. Can people hear me? Yeah, I can. The only thing I would add to that is just in my fiscal note that I wrote is that, you know, there's only a fiscal impact to the extent that the governor actually implements this. And some quick facts that I threw in here is that the hospital provider tax averages roughly 12 and a half million dollars per month in revenue. The other provider tax revenues raise approximately 1.85 million. Combine the provider taxes represent 24% of the state dollars used to draw a federal match. So I just want to throw those numbers out there. Oh, and total provider tax is roughly $170 million a year in state dollars. It seems like what we're doing is we're giving the administration flexibility to maximize dollars while minimizing impact, which makes sense to me, given where we are and how much we're depending on our health care providers at the moment. Anyone have a question? Yeah, okay. Great. Jen, Nolan, thank you. There's nothing else in the bill that we should be worried about. Janet, Peter has a question. Oh, okay, Peter. Guys, please use your raise hand symbol. Go ahead, Peter. You're not, you need to unmute. Okay, you're good. You hear me now? Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay, sorry. Just as I recall, when we were talking about this earlier, the important element in choosing what to forgive, what to postpone really revolved around what was needed to satisfy and maximize the match from the federal government. And I assume that is still an element in choosing what to forego, what to postpone amongst the provider taxes. Right. So the conditions that are required in order to waive or waive or modify payment is that that the, well, sorry, I should I should say more of the rationale if the secretary proposes to waive or modify the they have to provide the rationale for exercising the authority and that rationale has to include the balance between the fiscal impact of the proposed action on the state budget and the needs of the providers and also include a mitigation plan for mitigating the fiscal impact to the state. So if there is a way, for example, to make up some of the provider to foregone provider tax revenue through additional federal funding, that might be part of the mitigation plan and it might also affect that balance in the rationale between the fiscal impact and the needs of the providers. So I think it allows it allows the secretary to look more holistically at what's going on both inside the providers who are responsible for paying the provider tax and also what is available to the state in funding from other sources. Thank you. Anyone else have a question? Get around. I don't see one. Jen, I can't remember if I got the answer from you or not. There's nothing else in the bill that we that concerns us particularly other than maybe some license fees. Yeah, actually, for the license fees, the only thing would just be that it's not changing any existing license fees for professionals. It just allows people coming in from elsewhere or who are retirees returning to the workforce to have temporary licenses without a fee. So it's nothing less than we would have expected. Right. There's also stuff in the transportation that postpones fees as well. That there is actually a very significant, you mean the DMV fees, those are huge. Section 36. We have not looked at those. I don't think we're going to change them at this stage, frankly. I understand the governor's already doing it. Exactly. That's what I understand. All right. Pardon me. So I think we'll thank you both very much and I think we'll close this meeting down for those who weren't yet back on the call. We're going to meet at 10 tomorrow morning. Same routine and we'll have information out to you before then if there are people that you want to hear from either from the earlier discussions, today's discussion, or some other issue that you that has come up that you'd like some information on. Please let Sorcha and me know and we will get people scheduled. I hope to have a little more information about the federal legislation tomorrow. I think that would be that would certainly be helpful and maybe a little bit reassuring, I hope. So it's certainly in the in the education area it is. So please do keep in touch. We do. We are on the floor one o'clock and whatever form that takes. I don't know exactly what that's going to look like. I'm not there. I'm home as you can tell. So thank you everybody. Have a good day. Be safe.