 Hey everybody, tonight we're debating critical race theory and we're starting right now. With Vosh's opening statement, thanks so much for being with us Vosh, the floor is all yours. Hi, I'm Vosh. Okay, so critical race theory is a subject that many people are discussing right now. It is certainly a hot topic and the frustration that I have is that usually when we talk about critical race theory, we do so in the context of what's being taught to our kids, like in school. Now critical race theory really isn't being taught to people outside of a collegiate level. Sometimes it's even a post-grad thing and sociology, criminal justice studies and in legal studies, which has a different definition for critical race theory because this is a fairly esoteric, you know, academic theory. Usually when conservatives talk about critical race theory, they're referring to something else, something they don't like about anti-racist theory or something that I guess they would have called anti or like reverse racist a couple of years ago. Actually I think that's a good one. I feel like I've noticed that quite a bit actually. A couple of years ago, like, oh, this thing is reverse racist and now it's, oh, well this is what happens when critical race theory, you know, infiltrates the minds of our youth or whatever. Anyway, the feeling that I get when talking about these issues is that nobody's working with the same set of definitions. So instead of fixating on the esoteric terminology of varying use and very, very limited application, maybe we should just focus on the very specific ideas that we do or don't like because it's entirely possible to end up agreeing about some of them. I know there are elements of left-leaning anti-racism that I think are highly counterproductive. I see them all the time. I responded to them. I just responded to one on TikTok literally yesterday. I know this happens. Maybe it would be better to focus on those elements, the sub points rather than the terminology itself. So those are my thoughts, I think. Thank you very much. And we will kick it over to Kenden. We were thrilled to have you, Kenden. I want to let you know, folks, if it's your first time here at Modern Aid Debate, we are a neutral platform hosting debates on science, religion, and politics, and we hope you feel welcome no matter what walk of life you were from. With that, Kenden, thanks for being with us. The floor is all yours. Thank you very much, James. Yes, my name is Kenden Farr. I am TikTok Famous, which is probably the worst kind of Famous. Just before I carry on, I want to thank two people for making this conversation. Well, in addition to James and Bosch for actually being here and James for organizing it. There's Steve Ophilius, who's probably in the chat somewhere, who planted the seed of this conversation. And my friend Stephen Ryan, who runs a YouTube channel called Cider & Port, who kind of made sure that this happened. So thank you very much. Go, Jackie Mell. He's all right, really. Yes, so I appreciate Bosch's candor, and I appreciate Bosch's generosity when it comes to the actual terms. Because, to be quite honest, he's right in that sense, the critical race theory. Maybe I'm not talking about critical race theory. Maybe that's not what I'm actually objecting to. I think we ought to define what I'm not debating before we move on to what I'm actually contesting. So racism exists. There is a legacy of racism, and it can affect populations in the Western world and all Western countries to this day. So I believe that people who don't look like me suffer it more than I do. So I'm not contesting that at all. The problem is not the problem. It's the solution that troubles me. Critical race theory, as I have read about it and as I've seen it implemented discussed by TikTok, YouTube and other platforms, strikes me as collectivist and authoritarian. It ignores individual circumstances. As someone who's a mild conservative, which in American terms makes me a liberal, I find critical race theory not so much appalling, but terrifying. There is something about it that scares me. I'm not entirely certain what it is about. I think it's because it is collectivist that ignores the individual and suggests that all discrepancies between racial groups are entirely the product of systemic racism, at least again, this is how I've heard about it. And I find that sort of thing creepy, the herding of human beings creepy. I'm prepared to go a little deeper into that, but as an opening statement, that's the best I've got, James. So I'll just throw it back over to you. You got it. Thanks very much, Ken and for that opening. And before we go into open dialogue, folks, want to let you know, if you haven't subscribed yet, we have many more juicy debates coming up. So hit that subscribe button right now as we have a, for example, folks, bottom right of your screen tomorrow, JF and Alex Stein will collide on whether or not the police are systematically racist. So that should be a juicy debate. You don't want to miss it. So do hit that subscribe button as well as that notification bell as well. And so with that, thanks, gentlemen. The floor is all yours. Okay. All right, I'm really, really happy that we don't have to spend a bunch of time arguing the nuances of the extent to which CRT means any of this. Unfortunately, the fault is kind of on everyone's side because left-leaning people will also say, oh, they don't teach CRT in schools. This is what CRT is. And then the list out something that has nothing to do with CRT, which is incredibly frustrating for me. But I feel like we can leave all that aside and just talk about the underlying ideas. So you talk about what's, I guess, essentially equality versus equity here. I think that's one of the big lines that a lot of people take disagreement on. So with regards to this, the line that I usually hear is like, okay, so we acknowledge that there are biases between the outcomes of groups in our society because at least in part due to racism. We know, of course, the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow has had some effect on average income and education and blah. We can agree on that. But then the subsequent statement is, well, is it entirely attributable to that? And then obviously you get into questions of genetics or there are other factors or culture, individual responsibility. So the question I have then, I guess, I would ask you is, if you did not have any broader social biases against one of two groups. What would explain disparate outcomes amongst averages between those groups? Obviously individuals will always vary. But like if there was no systemic racism, what could explain black people on average having lower social outcomes than white people? Well, it depends because I mean, I will answer the question, but it's a bit of a long one. You must have heard that in the UK there was a report published by the Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities that was commissioned by Boris Johnson, led by a chap called Tony Sewell, who's a black British Caribbean guy, to talk about that, to answer that very question. Is racism the number one cause for discrepancies between racial groups? And he identified that in, because the thing is, the problem I've got with this conversation in particular, Varsh, is that it's very much an American conversation. But a lot of these ideas are being imperfectly transposed to other countries, particularly English speaking ones like Britain, of course, and Ireland and other places, which also have the history of racism, but it's not American racism. It's not slavery, Jim Crow, that sort of thing. And so a lot of this stuff doesn't quite translate. So for example, you say black, but again, the question then becomes, what do you mean by black? So Tony Dr. Sewell in his report, and in conversation with people discussing the report, said black Caribbean's, or back from the Caribbean or part of Caribbean descent, have starkly different academic results from black Africans who live in Britain. Now, obviously, again, this is not a universal constant. It's not like one group is always failing, one group is always successful. But you can see that on average, they tend to do better. Black Africans tend to perform better academically than black Caribbean's. And his argument wasn't, this doesn't, what this proves is that there is a cultural distinction between African communities in Britain and Caribbean communities in Britain. Again, not universal constants. You can't be generic about this. That's where it all goes wrong. But it could be parenting style. It could be social pressures, depending. It could be class. It could be cultural expectations. All of these little, well, I say little things are massive, aren't they? I mean, just talk to a sociologist. These are huge. But all of these factors can also have a bearing on performance for minority groups in, say, white, I don't like the phrase white majority, but we'll have to use it, white majority countries. So all of these little things, because, as I say, I'm sure we're going to agree on this. Race isn't real. It's not a real, it's a social construct. It's not, it's not a thing. So you can't say, well, it's down to the genes or something, because that's just pseudo-intellectual, anti-scientific horseshoots. But there are social and cultural factors, such as the ones I've mentioned, have a massive impact on outcomes, on, you know, professional and academic. Sorry, I'll stop rambling now, I'll let you respond. No, not at all. So it's true that the legacy of racism is very different between America and the UK. I'm obviously rather limited to the examples that I have with regards to America. I mean, the UK, of course, in England, it had slavery as well. I know that there are laws and they abolished it earlier and stuff. So there's always going to be some degree of variance there. So it's interesting to me, you brought up the Caribbean immigrants, because we also have something like that here in America. See, when we're talking about African immigrant groups here in America, they actually outperform American natives, just people who have been born here in America, in almost every metric across the board, like Nigerian immigrants, for example. Their IQ, their income, their educational attainment, insane compared to ours, just absolutely up there. And the reason for that is because the process of immigration selects for a different set of qualifiers. Usually, all the poorest and least educated people in Nigeria probably can't afford to move to the United States. Whereas if you're born here in America, black, white, Asian, whatever, you could be from any socioeconomic class. The wealthiest Asians in our country are first or second generation immigrants from Asia. The poorest ones came here back in the 1800s. So there are always a ton of like... It feels, it's very granular, because the more you look into the subdivisions between these groups, the more individual reasons you find for over or underperformance by some social metrics. But the question, I mean, if we isolate everything down fundamentally, let's say we're talking about just natives, do you mind if I use America just because I'm more familiar with it? Yeah, I expected you to, to be honest with me. Gotcha. You know how we are. Well, no, I mean, you are American, you understand your culture better than mine, just as I understand mine better than yours. I mean, I figured all of your examples are going to be American just because how could they be anything else? I mean, that's fair enough. And this, let's face it, critical race theory comes from Harvard from the 1970s. So it's going to, ultimately, it's an American thing. So carry on, yeah. I'm glad this conversation is a testament to the triumph of multiculturalism, then. Here in America, with regards to like the disparities between racial groups. So we have to like isolate a variable. Let's take native white people and native black people. The black people, the history can be traced back hundreds of years, almost certainly, for white people, let's say at least 100 years past. So we're talking like people who would never consider themselves anything but American, many, many differences in terms of average IQ, educational attainment, blah, blah. Now, many of these things can be directly attributed to racism, right? You know, there are biases in the criminal justice system, the way cops treat X and Y, stuff like that. And then you have redlining, you know, where are these families growing up where a lot of black families are growing up in neighborhoods that have way lower housing values. And since most schools get funded by property taxes, if the houses are cheap, so are the schools. And if you go back further than that, let's say you isolate those variables, right, and you find black families and white families born in the same neighborhoods in areas with very low latent levels of racism who have never interacted with the criminal justice system. There still tend to be disparities. And sometimes then people talk about like culture there, you know. But then the question is like, where does culture come from? You know, it comes from environment or genetics, right? And I don't think black people are like genetically predisposed to a different type of culture. So it seems like, right, a lot of black culture, I'm speaking very generally here, seems like there's an aversion to the police, that there seems to be some glorification of like gang culture or criminality and like gangster rap, for example. You could argue like white boys from the suburbs consume this music more than almost any other group. But in terms of what we associate it with, there's definitely like a connection there. And a lot of that comes from like historically anti-systemic and anti-cop attitudes in the black community, which were especially when these songs came out super justified. So it feels like when people make the equality versus equity argument, if you go back far enough, there's almost always an excuse for a disparity and it almost always does come down to racism between racial groups, obviously. If it was between gendered groups, then I would say, otherwise I'd say it comes down to some kind of, well, it's either biological or conditional, right? And that to address that, if one were to, you would arrive at a world where on average, black Americans, white Americans, Asians, whatever would perform almost identically in every major social way, not between individuals, but as populations that would be almost identical. And I think that's what people mean when they talk about like, you called it collectivism. It's not the idea that everyone has to be the same. It's the idea that absent these barriers, there really wouldn't be a reason for like, there to be these big differences between racial groups, you know? Well, yes, but I see your point, but I would raise you this question with regard to differences between racial groups in terms of our cultural impact. One, you actually have hit a point that I want to make with regards to this. You talk about sort of like gang culture, hip hop, subculture, anti-cop, anti-government, anti-white sentiment from hip hop and things like that. A lot of that stuff is poisonous to young minds. If you're born into an environment whereby you are convinced that you cannot possibly succeed because you're the wrong color, or you just don't have the same life chance as anyone else, there's almost an incentive not to try. I should come clean on this one. I used to be a teacher, I'm a qualified high school teacher and I don't do that anymore because I recovered my sanity and I was trained to encourage everybody. And one of the things that you're trained as a teacher to notice and to deal with is self doubt, the lack of self-belief in students. Now, that doesn't mean that, you know, that people are children, that's not where we're going. But there's a kind of mentality, there's a victim mentality. That's a phrase that I hear an awful lot now. Victim mentality going around, which is propagated by certain cultural and social forces that needs to be defeated. One of the reasons, and again, I'm speaking only for the UK, I can't speak for America. And then again, we're speaking in general terms anyway, so you're gonna find exception for this. British Africans come to Britain, I mean, or Africans come to Britain and become British or they are born and raised in Britain. They come to Britain with hope, with expectation, with ambition. And they don't all come across as middle-class people. I know a lot of, I mean, you probably know this, our NHS is propped up by foreign medical staff, for example. Most of the people, it seems like half the people who work for the NHS were not born and raised in this country. But they come over, you know, they work manual jobs, they do office work. I work with a lot of Nigerians in my place of work, for example. But they come to Britain with a sense of hope, a sense of optimism. So even if I don't succeed my children or my grandchildren will, and that sort of idea, that sort of belief, even if it's misplaced, when transmitted is socially constructive and individually beneficial. But if that's missing for whatever reason, and again, we could talk about historical, racial abuse and things like that, that can have massive outcomes. But that's a trick, you know, massive negative outcomes. But that I would argue is something that, it's not the system that's at fault there. There's like a subcultural or a social issue there that needs to be tweaked, but the system itself is innocent, at least to that extent, in that regard. If you wanna come back on that, you can do, but there we are. Well, with respects to that, so setting aside, so the victim culture mentality, like the idea that an expectation that the system is biased against you keeps people from trying as hard as they can, we can set that to the side. That argument, its existence, doesn't disprove the existence of the thing they're complaining about, right? I mean, you could potentially say the system is quite racist against you, but you must push forward in spite of that. You mustn't let that get you down. So would you argue then, you acknowledge there are these biases, these systemic problems, the issue is the way people respond to it often leads to the perpetuation of those problems, maybe? Yes, the only thing is, is again, when we talk about systemic issues, we have to bear in mind that, because I reject the idea that the West is run, is governed by white supremacy. That's another argument I've heard, and I'm not comfortable with it at all. Again, if I'm wrong, I will concede that point, but I'm not comfortable with the idea that the Western world is run for whites and whites only. I just don't buy it. When you talk about systemic issues, I mean, we've already mentioned it today, you're American, I'm British, two separate systems. Yes, we have a shared history because one country spawned the other. So yeah, then of course we had to get connected. Was it two people divided by a common language, as George Bernard Shaw once put it? But yeah, the job is, I don't know what system you're referring to, because America, as I say, has got its own unique history, the United States has its own unique history of racist abuse, and Britain has too. I mean, I say this to people, my grandfather, who died when I was 10, Good riddance, bastard, he used to say, I'm not racially prejudiced, I hate all the bastards equally. He never met a black person he liked, really. He had no time for them at all. And when he died, I was actually quite relieved because he was a thug, and that man spent most of his life as a constable in the London Met. He was a police officer. So when people talk to me about racist cops in the UK, and these are all in America, I go, yeah, I can well believe it. I can well believe it because my grandfather was one of them. They always say that too, don't they? I hate everyone equally thing. They never really do, do they? They say that a lot, but they never really do. They might hate everybody, well, they might hate everybody, but they have something that they hate more. They have favorite pets. A little bit of playing in favor. Yes, I mean, they're all kind of shifty, but that one there, he's definitely, yeah, exactly. So when people talk about like, racist in the police, I can totally buy it. I mean, and as I say, and I have, I don't know any stories. I don't know if my grandfather got up to anything. Frankly, I don't want to know. But yeah, so when people say things like that, I can believe it. But again, we're talking about two separate systems. Well, you know, but the trouble is with critical race theory, again, how it's described and implemented is that it's used universally as though there were no differences between the United States and the United Kingdom. In fact, I've mentioned this too, because I mean, this is how serious that I take this topic. My place of work, I work for a bank in the UK. My place of work is introducing critical race theory into its diversity and inclusion training and I've written letters to a couple of people who are running it, who are like chief operations officers and things like that saying, I'm not saying you can't do this. I'm just saying that I have my doubts because a lot of this stuff is American and it just doesn't translate. So again, I'm still wondering where to point this. So feel free to wind me back in there. Right, so to this point, there are a couple of things that I've written down here. So there are a couple of preconditions that we have to set before we can really talk about like the fundamentals in this issue. Obviously I'm not as familiar with the particulars of racism in the UK, though I imagine that many of them are fundamentally similar because most of when people talk about white supremacy, they're not actually referring to, well, you said the West isn't governed by white supremacy, which is a statement that I think a person could write an entire book proving or disproving if they wanted to. I think when we talk about systemic racism or white supremacy, I try not to talk about intent necessarily because while it is certainly the case that there are men like your grandfather or, hey, like my grandfather on my father's side, not the living one, thank God, or many other men who I know and have known or read about, there are plenty of racist people out there, certainly. But one of the components of white supremacy is the complete absence of necessary intent. So for example, like we've talked about this, history has effects on the present. If black people were slaves for the first 200 years of this country's existence and then were second class citizens for the next 120, they are not going to have the same time to build the generational wealth that say the white counterparts might have. It's a mathematical certainty. Even if they had signed in the Civil Rights Act, even if they had somehow psychically obliterated racism from the lines of every American, but kept all the economic systems intact as they were, black people would still be massively behind because only then would they suddenly have the ability to do all these things that white families have been using to compound wealth and power for hundreds of years prior. So one of the issues is that it feels like we're shadow boxing against an invisible enemy, like a ghost of the past, because when we talk about like, well, why are black people this way in say Detroit or Chicago? Well, a lot of it is just because of redlining, but it's not because anyone today is necessarily keeping their foot down on the scales. It's an active effort to address preexisting biases. And that's one of the reasons why this equity thing keeps coming up. If you have a race where one person got to start 20 seconds earlier, you can remove any possible restriction from the second participant in that race, they will still never catch up, assuming nothing horrible happens to the first one. Some effort has to be made to even out the game to make things fair, which is one of the reasons why I'm a big fan of reparations. Again, this is very much a country-specific thing, but here in the United States, a lot of social damage is done from the disparity between black and white people, not just from black people being poor, but from the fact that there's a dissonance socially between those two groups. It leads to a lot of social infighting, a lot of bitterness and resentment. It leads to certain parts of our cities being underkempt, certain parts of our educational systems underfunded. And it means that there's going to be a permanent racial bias to the workplace distribution in these cities, because I mean, if all the worst schools are in black neighborhoods and the best ones are in white neighborhoods, black families have less money than white families on average, of course the white people are going to get the tech job education. It has nothing to do with any individual teacher being racist, they could be totally, they could have affirmative action programs if they wanted. It wouldn't change all the underlying mathematics. So what critical race theory, you said it came from Harvard and that's right, it was originally a legal study which rejected the notion that there was racial ambivalence in the practice and the execution of law. And one of the fundamental presuppositions that legal scholars had relied on beforehand was the idea that unless laws were specifically targeting people based on race, there wasn't really a racial component to them, they were neutral or ambivalent beforehand. But there's an example I'd like to provide if I may, before I hand things off to you again. In North Carolina, there was a voter identification law that was proposed past and then challenged by the state supreme court. And it was a set of laws that were designed to ban the use of certain types of identification while voting and made adjustments to all of the parameters surrounding voting, how much time you had to do it, like how many weeks beforehand you could do mail-in voting. And there was nothing racial about this law, mind. It never mentioned white or black people at all. But it was found by the state supreme court upon challenge that all of the changes that were made specifically targeted the types of ID that black people were most likely to use, specifically targeted the types of parameters that black people were disproportionately likely to use. The supreme court ended up deciding that the state legislators had targeted black people with, and this is their words, surgical precision without ever mentioning race. And this is one of these shadows that I feel like we have to fight against because it's entirely possible to create, promote and perpetuate a racial bias without ever actually mentioning race. So you have to go beyond that. You have to do something a little bit more systemic, assuming, and I see the trepidation there, assuming you don't do so in a way which cripples or harms or otherwise disadvantages people who are already in the majority group because I wouldn't, it's not about breaking one kneecap to match the pace of the second runner. It's about setting things in motion to undo historical biases. Well, that's a great phrase that you've just used but it's not about breaking one kneecap to reduce the running speed of the first person. That's absolutely true. You talk about, I mean, I'm gonna pick this up because I think in actual fact, we're actually closely aligned on this. I mean, I'm genuinely surprised by this. It's actually quite scary. We talk about generational wealth. I agree that if you've been a slave, if your people have been slaves for 200 years and then being pressed for 100 years, et cetera, et cetera, you don't have the time to create generational wealth and pass it down. But I would argue that certainly in the UK, and I'm guessing it's true in the United States as well because it's all about money in your bubble, that most pink people have not had the ability to generate great wealth and pass it down to their children and their grandchildren. Most people in the West, certainly in the UK and I'm guessing in the US are living what you would say, as you would say paycheck to paycheck, we'd say payslip because we're foreign and weird. But again, so there's no real wealth to pass down. In fact, one study, I forget where it was from, said that if you do create great wealth, your family creates great wealth, most of it will be lost within three generations. So the idea that, you know, if you make a lot of money, they say in the early 1800s, it will somehow be transmitted down through the ages to 2021. Numbers don't add up on that one. So generational wealth, I think, yes, I can imagine that it's true for some people but it's not, again, for all whites. Just isn't, I would suggest. Lack of bias in law. That's where you say critical race theory came from. Again, I believe it. But of course, people are flawed. People have, what do they say? Is it unconscious bias? Is the phrase that goes around a lot that needs to be checked? That's why you have professional oversight committees to make sure that this sort of thing doesn't happen. You talk about the voter ID law in North Carolina. Now that is specific and I can't challenge that particular example because I don't know anything about it. But you say that we should, you say that it has a racist impact even though race is never explicitly mentioned. And so you say that we ought to do something systemic to fix it. I'm not sure that you can. And the reason is because I'm always concerned with the, I'm always concerned with the impact and how it is received, how your solution is received by the wider population because we're drifting, I think, into the realm of quotas. You know, you might have heard, it's certainly in the UK, employers now have to employ, I think it's at least 20% BAME, Black Asian Minority Ethnic Employees and things like that. Things like this to try and deal with bias in human resources departments and things like that. This not only creates resentment, I'm not sure it actually fixes the problem at all. Like if you're a racist and you are a hardcore racist, you really don't like people who don't look like you. Being surrounded by people who don't look like you isn't necessarily gonna cure you of your racism, but more importantly, while it might benefit those individual people who've got a job, which is good for them, they've got income, et cetera, et cetera, does it actually do anything to deal with the wider, as you would put it, the wider systemic issues that affect different minority groups? I would argue not much if anything at all. So yeah, I mean, I don't know what you're supposed, I'm gonna just drop that there and hope that you could do something with it. But I mean, as I say, I don't think that the trouble with critical race theories I don't think it actually works. I don't think it's gonna have the positive impact that the theorists, the fans of the theory are seeking, truthfully. So with regards to critical race theory, I mean, it's really just a lens of analysis more so than it is a set of prescriptions. So I don't know if it relates to the solutions one would find, but you mentioned the voter ID law and for me, the solution to that would be fairly simple, universal identification system in America that's handed out for free to everyone. Most other countries, most Western democracies have this. America doesn't, for some reason, meaning that ID requirements change depending on the state, their accessibility, the time it takes to actually get them, all of them can vary, but I wouldn't have a problem with voter ID laws if free voter education was passed out to everyone. Likewise, there are changes that we can make to the funding of school districts. The fact that schools are funded based on the property taxes of the houses in that district, that perpetuates a lot of problems because I mean, if you live in a super wealthy neighborhood, your school does not need like that much, it just doesn't. It's not contributing to the education. Past a certain point, you're just buying, I know this, I grew up in Beverly Hills. We had a brand new science. I've never heard of that place. Yes, we had a brand new science building and then they built the new football thing and our gym had a basketball court that turned into a pool because the floor opened like the Red Sea. It was, and we're, I'm only right next to Koreatown. There are kids who had to grow up in the Los Angeles school district and their schools were just these, I mean, I don't wanna be too evocative or anything, but the distribution of wealth as it stands right now was entirely superfluous in my neighborhood and it was very destructive to the lives of many other people, stuff like that. Now, I guess you could, maybe this is handicapping the wealthy a little bit. I guess I would say it's to an acceptable extent, but what most people talk about, when they talk about addressing these biases, affirmative action, I'm not actually a tremendous fan of it, mostly because in America, affirmative action, mostly benefits white women. That just seems to be the group that overwhelmingly and disproportionately benefits. And as a crowd misogynist, yeah, it's just not a group that I want, benefit, that was a joke, I'm sorry. When it comes to addressing these solutions, right, we need to find ways not to kick resources from one can to another, but to find ways to unite everyone around a solution that everyone benefits from equally. I think that a universal light de-system is good for that. I think that public transportation in large cities is also good for that because it makes it way, way, way, way easier to get around if you can't afford to own a car, which in America costs about 9,000 a year on average to own between payments to the lease, to gas, to damage, to insurance. There are so many ways that you can infrastructurally build our society up. And by doing so, you raise the floor, you raise the minimum level. And these aren't necessarily racially targeted programs either. I'm not saying like we go to every city and like every black person gets a $10,000 check. I'm saying that in neighborhoods which we have ignored for so long, you don't just give black people something but you fix the things that have kept them from getting it for themselves. Because I do believe in individual attainment as long as we live in an economy where people's success is determined in large part by their access to these resources, we should make sure everyone has equal access to those resources. And I believe that if you do that, you get equity in the end. That if you have a country where everyone, regardless of race or whatever, where they are all basically equidistant to the necessary social resources to achieve prosperity, you would get basically the same outcomes across populations ideally. And the last thing I'll say is this, with regards to white people also experiencing poverty, it seems to me like a lot of your criticisms of what I guess gets referred to as critical race theory, you're almost advocating for third wave feminist intersectionality, which I think is extraordinarily based because it's something that I support. Your argument is that it is myopic and limiting to only think of social problems at the racial intersection because there are many poor white people. And going further than that, there are ways in which people are disadvantaged along other lines that they may not necessarily, like for example, all the ways in which men get fucked over in modern society that like feminists and not to talk about, these are things that intersectionally can be addressed, the recognition that we're all a product of all of these combining and intersecting social issues that describe not us as people, people are too complicated for that, but they describe a lot of the issues that we face. I'm autistic, for example, and I'm sure you can tell with my phenomenal candor here, but there are some issues there with regards to how I like deal with things, but they're like directly affected by the fact that I'm a dude as well, if I was a woman to be totally different. And to talk about autism as something that would only affect like guys, like maybe there are women who would disagree with that, or if I were to talk about it in ways that would only necessarily affect like young people, as opposed to people like myself in my late 20s, then you would miss out on that element as well. It's all about understanding the ways in which these things interact. And I think if you agree with that, if you agree that's something worth taking into consideration, you would probably agree with me on almost all of my social prescriptions. Well, I mean, this is the thing, I mean, I obviously market myself as a conservative, I obviously market myself as a conservative because in British terms I am, I'm a card carrying member of the conservative party, I have voted conservative, but in American terms, people call me referred to me as a dirty liberal because a lot of my positions are very much liberal minded, like for example, gay marriage, gay adoption, and things like that, I don't support these things. One nation conservatism as advocated by Benjamin Disraeli back in the 19th century stipulates that the government should be responsible for getting the basics at the beginning and then getting out of the way of human beings. So you, you, Vosh or James, who's moderating and sitting there quietly, keeping to himself, you obviously, you need to know the basics, you need to be able to read, write and count, you need to be able to prepare the basics and then the government steps out of the way. And then if James is lazy or if James is not as talented as Vosh or whatever, then he achieves the less than Vosh. But the difference is, is that it's your personal attributes or your personal industry that determines your success in the world. So, but the thing about America, and this is something, again, that I genuinely did not know. I was like, the fact that your schools are funded by property taxes is ridiculous. I mean, in the UK, it doesn't work like that. Every single child in the state system receives through the school, because it's not directly, of course, a certain amount of several thousand pounds every year that covers things like textbooks, teaching equipment, that sort of thing, maintenance of the school to make sure that every child, regardless of background, if they go to a state school, they're covered. Now, obviously, if you go to a private school, you do what you like, the funding situation is different. But the British culture very much is based on the idea that we look after you at the beginning. We make sure that everyone gets the same start and then we step out of the way to let you succeed and fail as you see fit. So the American system, as far as I can tell, for example, your public transport system, do you have one? Or lack thereof, yeah. Or lack thereof, yeah. I mean, I live in Manchester in northwest England, which has the busiest bus network in Europe and you don't need a car. Owning a car is actually a disadvantage because you can't park the bastard. You can't drive anywhere because the roads are chocker. So you have to go and take the bus or the tram or something like that to go to work. And it works, and as you've pointed out, you save a fortune on car maintenance because you don't need to make any debt of vehicle. And you can still get to work at the same time it would take you to, if you drove a car. So things like that I actually agree with. I forgot what the next bit was. You said something about blast, my mind's falling apart. You said something else and I forgot. That doesn't help. Blast. What was the next bit? Well, let's just say you agreed with that then, you know, for the sake of charity. Well, no, I mean, well, I'm not gonna say I agree with Vosh and absolutely everything. King of the lefties. No, no, no, no, that's not gonna happen. Kind of you, thank you. Well, no, it wouldn't be, no, it wouldn't be King. I'm guessing you're not a royalist. So you'd be like a chief citizen of the lefties. No, I'll take it. I'll take it. Thank you. I'm very flattered. But no, but no, there are little bits and pieces like that. But oh, what was I going to say? You said something about poor whites and I can't remember what it was. Could you remember? Can you remind me? I think you're advocating for intersectionality. It may well be the case here in America, black people are poor on average than white people, but it's not like white people as a group are doing phenomenally, you know? Cause there's certainly not. People are struggling all around. So it's not just then about black issues versus white issues. It's about which issues make the most people, put the most people in the worst position they can be right now. And what do you do to solve them in a way that addresses the root, the cause, rather than just like pastes over a certain group's expression of that problem, you know? Just giving money away. Does not fix any of these issues? No, it doesn't. And when you talked about reparations as well, obviously, if your idea of reparations is a handout, then I don't support it cause handouts don't solve anything. Cause once you spend the money, it's gone. But if you invest the money, if you invest reparation money in something that could benefit lots of people, people who are disadvantaged, that's fine. The problem is, and you've just stumbled on it, the point I was going to make about it, is that as you've said, it is myopic to look at these issues as a purely racial one because of course there are, there might be black people living in shacks wherever in the country, but they're also, but most of the people who live in shacks in your country are pink and they also suffer disadvantage. So the way that critical race theory or whatever it is, I mean, maybe it's not critical race theory, maybe it's a bastard form of it. The way it's used in pop culture, the way it's discussed online, et cetera, et cetera, it stokes up ethnic and racial resentment. So that's why I object to it, at least as it's propagated because it creates more problems than it solves and it exacerbates the existing problem. I've heard, I'm sure you've been on TikTok, you've been on YouTube, you've seen creators black and white, mainly non-white actually, who are basically espousing a form of ethno-nationalism, this kind of, you know, sort of like a kind of pan-African universal blackness that transcends the white man's borders. And I get a lot of this on TikTok and I've responded to a lot of TikTok videos, I think at least I have, I've at least commented on them, where they say things like, you know, if you're a black person and you date a white person, you're betraying your race and all this bullshit. And I say, if I said that about whites, you'd call me a Nazi. I mean, with good cause. I mean, what, and yeah, it's given a pass because well, isn't Jim Crow and slavery awful? Yeah, Jim Crow and slavery were awful, but that's no excuse for whatever this toxic nonsense is, but that's what you're getting. I mean, you've had the misfortune of interviewing possibly Britain's worst export, Carl Benjamin, AKA Sargon of the Cat, you know, Britain's first finest twat, you know, I mean, I thought Piz Morgan was terrible, but Jesus. You've had, and again, I mean, don't get me wrong, I mean, I shouldn't confess this maybe. He soft pedals a lot of stuff. I mean, superficially, right? These things say things like, I believe in democracy. I'm a free speech absolutist. So am I. I'm a free speech absolutist. I think everyone's- But when you talk to him for a bit, it starts coming out though, this is like- I actually owe you a favor because I was a subscriber to his YouTube channel and I agreed with a lot of the superficial stuff, like people should be allowed to speak their minds. Yeah, yeah, they should, that's right. They should be allowed, you know, democracy should be upheld. Yeah, that's absolutely fine. But then you start digging into it. And when you've interviewed him a couple of times and you go, yeah, actually there's more going on here, isn't there? There's a subtext that I didn't notice. Pardon my interruption, but just because Sargon's not here, I'm happy to set you guys up, but just because he's not here to defend himself, I do want to redirect more back to him. Oh yeah. Fair enough, I will stop. The point I'm making is, is that if you get black nationalists, if you get black racists, anti-white black racists, right, you are going to get a white response. And it's a response to this kind of thing. Now, I guys, again, I can't speak for America, I'm not going to, that's your shop, right? I can speak for Britain and I can sort of flirt with the wider European continent. You must have noticed this from across the pond because you've got fingers in various pies. You know that not only is Britain drifting to the right, which mild conservatism obviously I'm in favor of, because that's basically like classical liberalism now, but you go on the continent, it's a shit show. You've got Le Front National in France, Alternative of a Deutschland in Germany, Golden Dawn, whatever that is in Greek. The fascists are gaining Italy and Spain and Portugal. There's a kind of weird hard right renaissance. And it's tapping into white resentment or kind of backlash against poorly handled, I would argue poorly handled critical race theory. It's like, well, all these black people are complaining about they're not getting this, this, this. I haven't got that either, but they say that I'm benefiting from white supremacy and this sort of thing, but I get nothing. So, and this guy comes along, whoever he happens to be, mentioning no names, because James has told us off because we're being naughty. But you know, this is the market, they're tapping into this shit. It's like this stuff, you need to pick on this. And I consider that a failure of the left, the right is picking, the far right, which obviously I don't represent, but the far right is just mopping up the traditional left-wing vote, the sort of disenfranchised, disillusioned working class. And that I think is, you know, that's where this could go. It could go, we could lose it all because if this issue is poorly handled. Okay, so there are a few things, actually quite a few things that I have to say here, Michael, okay. So you're an advocate for meritocracy, which I think is almost a utopian ideal that I share, the idea that, you know, we get what we deserve. I mean, it's almost self-fulfilling, right? You would hope. I would disagree with the idea that I'm utopian because I gave up on utopia years ago. Well, the hope that like we could live in a society where people truly benefit from the fruits of their labor and their talents to a, to an extent, which is perfectly determined by the extent to which they try and so on and so forth. It's what, I mean, it's certainly something that I think is worth pushing towards. There will always be some biases. This person had a better family growing up than this person or that, but I think it's a good thing to believe in, if nothing else. It's just, you said something that I like, you know, the government should set things up at the beginning. So, you know, I'm probably more in favor of government involvement than you are generally, at least for now, because down the line, I'd think myself an anarchist, but at least for the moment, of course, the degree to which you set something up. Oh, you say you like low level, low levels of government involvement, then I've got an ideology for you. Well, regardless, where we live now, where you set the line of the government setting things up is pretty arbitrary. So right now, you get K through 12 in the United States, you know, the government will pay for that, that's your right, but college of course, college is quite expensive. It's been getting quite a bit more expensive with time too. And now people are arguing, well, basically in order to get any kind of job beyond line cook, you need to have a college degree anyway. Maybe that should also be something that the government sets up for you, that you get for free. Not so much because, you know, we deserve more now than we did back then, but because there's more social utility to be derived from that being considered a baseline than what used to take place. Because back, you know, 50, 60 years ago, finishing high school was way more of a accomplishment than it is today, like proportionally speaking. If you finished high school, you were like a strong, robust, you know, you were educated, you could, and going to college, like my God, brain lords, you know, these eggheads going to college. Nowadays, going to college and getting a bachelor's degree is practically a prerequisite for anything worthwhile. So maybe as the economy grows more technologically dependent, the line shift forward. And the only point I'm making is that what it takes to set things up where you draw that line is arbitrary because it could have been that maybe in America, it's only elementary school the government pays for and that high school is something that's always privately dictated or always needs to be paid for. And all the wealthy people would get their high school and all the poor people wouldn't and we would just have to settle for that. Obviously we didn't go with that, but we took it a step further, but there's no hard line. It's always what you get the most utility from. Yeah, well, no, I mean, speaking as a former teacher, what an absolute qualified teacher, I just don't do it anymore. I believe that what you're actually describing is academic inflation. It used to be the case in the UK at least that you could leave school at 14 with no qualifications and at 16 with GCSEs, then with 18 with A levels. It used to be the case that only 2% of school leavers got a degree, now it's 32%. So getting a degree doesn't make you more employable. Getting a master's is almost entirely pointless, but most employers in the UK at least will take a BA with a year's worth of practical work experience over an MA with no work experience. So, I mean, I think Bill Ma on real time, I don't agree with everything he says, but he actually talks about college is the fact it's not so much making college more accessible. It's about making college more unnecessary. You don't want to spend, I mean, because in America, again, I've had a chat with Stephen Ryan of the YouTube channel, Sider & Port, so I'm just promoting his channel again because I don't have one. I've got nothing else to promote. Yes, we had a chat about this. It's basically college in your country is a grift. It's a fucking grift. There's no way on God's green earth that an English degree from Brown is worth what $20,000 a year, it just isn't. I mean, my student there is almost negligible. I've got a degree in English and American literature, but it didn't cost me the earth and I wouldn't have paid for it if it cost me the earth. But then I only needed that degree to become an English teacher. The idea that everybody should go to college or that college should be free, I disagree with because it's, I mean, we're talking about economics again but it's scarcity that breeds value. So if everybody's got a degree or if more people get degree, shall we say? It reduces the remarkability? No. Notability, respectability? I don't know. Yeah, it reduces the respectability of a degree. So it's not about giving you access to everything. It's about reducing the need for some access so that it's redirecting funds and resources to other areas and hoping that that will... One of the problems of this discussion. You were slightly off topic. If you disagree, Bosch, because I have a feeling you might. Oh yeah, I'll bring it back to the line. Right, the only point I'm making vis-a-vis meritocracy is that we always have to consider what we think the starting line should be and where it is. The starting line used to be living out in a peasant village and nowadays the starting line includes like a bevel of education and healthcare rights at least somewhere in the world that we wouldn't have expected 300 years ago but today do with regards to education. Of course, there are so many problems with the way we treat modern education that talking about it and its necessity feels like a maelstrom. I know that here in the United States it's still generally beneficial to get a college degree and the payout you get eventually but there's no denying the system is absolutely fucked as it stands. One way or another with the meritocracy thing aside, what's interesting to me, so you talked about black separatism, the idea that there are black people essentially advocating for black ethno-states or using the kind of racist language that is... Well, if you were white and you said it, people would call you a white nationalist and fairly so. So it seems fair to call them the same though. Some of them argue against the term black nationalist and say black separatist or whatever. We understand the idea that we're talking about here. There are a couple of points to that. First of all, I think it's an entirely separate issue. It certainly has nothing to do with critical race theory because I promise you this, critical race theory has nothing to do with like this almost reverse racism advocacy for like far right policies from the other end of the justification spectrum. What would you call it? Woke racism? Whatever that is, I promise you, nobody's teaching this. What's interesting me is a lot of what I guess gets called critical race theory by you and by others feels like it fits within the teaching or curriculum of Robin D'Angelo. Do you know who that woman is? The white privilege books? Right. So I despise this person, but it's not because they push critical race theory. It's because they push liberal progressivism or liberal anti-racism. And it's funny to me because I think you actually are advocating for a critical perspective. Critical race theory in the sociological sense is a derivative of critical theory, which is Marxist in nature, but Marxist things, Marxist lens of analysis always pay due deference to class differences. Critical race theory in the sociological sense necessarily takes into consideration a lot of conditions that Robin D'Angelo does not. So Robin D'Angelo's solution to racism is what? Well, first of all, she's a white business consultant. So first solution to racism is business owners need to hire more white business consultants to tell their white employees to be more guilty for being white. Now I'll say it, I fairly do. I've read excerpts from these books. They're essentially telling white people they need to feel guilty for being white. This is not only not critical race theory, this is fundamentally a rejection of the intersectional values that have defined third wave feminism since what, the 90s? I despise them, I really do. And they poison the well for discourse too because now I reject, I don't think this is being taught to like every student or like this is like defines the entire left leaning, you know, zeitgeist on this particular subject. But with people like Robin D'Angelo, they're very popular because they are appealed to guilty white people and the people who know they can make money by appealing to guilty white people. And there are guilty white people in this country. I have never in my life advocated for white people feeling guilty for being white. I have never felt guilty for being white. I am of the belief that we should be entirely responsible for and proud of our own personal actions, what we've done, what we've overcome. I don't think I've ever done slavery so I don't feel a need to feel bad about that personally. But with the Robin D'Angelo types, it's, there's this complex grift in like the corporate, like in the corporate market where they know racism as a hot button issue and they know they wanna insulate themselves against HR complaints. So they wanna get hot button names like Robin D'Angelo to like talk as consultants in their company because they hear that's like the modern way of addressing racism. Robin D'Angelo makes money by telling people that she needs to be hired to tell them how to address racism. It's a circle. Like I don't even know what to say about it but it's not critical race theory, I promise you. If Robin D'Angelo was to present her work in any kind of like structured academic setting 99 times out of 100, they would be picked apart by people in the sociology or the criminal justice studies fields. I promise you, they would tear her apart. Sorry, I'm sorry for interrupting. I'm gonna leap on this, James. Probably bad form, but there we are. I am so relieved that you don't like white fragility, the book that has sold like several billion copies because this is the stuff that's being introduced in my place of work and it's being sold as critical race theory. Robin, and I'm not talking about Robin D'Angelo, James I don't know where I've never met her but her book, White Fragility is probably the most terrifying book I read in 2019. And as someone who is addicted to horror fiction, that's impressive. The way she tackles these topics again is myopic. She only looks at it through a racial lens. Like for example, she was talking about one of the examples in the book, I don't know how much I've read the whole thing cover to cover. I've given copies to people to say read this and laugh or cry, depending. But when I, one of the examples she says like Hollywood movies propagate negative stereotypes of black people like donkey in Shrek, right? And I went, hang on. Donkey was played by Eddie Murphy. It does very well, he's a comic actor, makes sense. But when I was a kid and I watched Shrek, I didn't go, hmm, donkey acts like all black people. Therefore, this is what black people, that's who thought that? I certainly didn't. And I don't know anybody who did, but that's the- Fishing for examples. Say again. Fishing for examples. Or self-reporting too. Because what I don't, I know, I mean, I know he's played by, I don't think of donkey as black. I've never in my life even, I told me a second when you said that, I had to like reflect, yeah. Exactly, nobody does. But this is the sort of thing that's being marketed. And it's, this is the stuff that's affecting the workplace. In fact, the first letter, and it is a letter that I wrote to the people running the diversity and inclusion training was a review of white fragility because at the end of the first webinar, the online seminar, you know what webinar is, come on. The first webinar that I attended, there was a recommended reading list with people like Robin D'Angelo, Tana Heesey Coates, Adam Rutherford, who wrote the book, How to Argue with the Racists. And I said, as someone who's read like all of those books and has a pit thoughts and feelings on all of them, white fragility should not be, should not be read by anyone who's keen to fix the problem because it's such a dreadful book. It creates more problems than it solves. But this is the stuff that's being propagated. I mean, yeah, you say in a structured academic setting, this wouldn't be respected as critical race theory. I have no way to verify that. I must assume that it's true. But I want to affirm that because what you're discussing right now, the problems with this book, the problem with these ideas is there are actually a fundamental rejection of the modern ideological trends, not only among sociologists and leftists, but among critical race theory activists in large part because Robin D'Angelo is a fucking liberal, first and foremost. All of these criticisms exist as they do because they don't want to address class. That's one of the fundamental problems with like second wave feminist discourse or like more liberal leaning anti-racist advocacy, which leads you to what, to Kamala Harris's, you can get your student loans paid off if you go to an underserved neighborhood for three years, the Pell Grant Fund thing. Did you hear about that? I don't know nothing about this or I can't comment. It's these obscene ways of brushing at the fringes of systemic racism without addressing class issues, which means you can't do it. It's not really possible. 90, so many of the ways in which racism reiterates itself in modern society is through the economic structures that get used in ways that without specifically addressing race, nonetheless reflect racial outcomes. This, the Robin D'Angelo, I mean, a fundamental point to the stuff that she writes, a complete rejection of intersectional analysis is this, that white people need to look internally and always reflect upon the ways in which their prenatal biases or just internalized biases and contradictions can reflect in racism and their behavior, right? But it's commonly accepted. I think almost everyone believes this, at least in the academic circles that I was a part of, in leftist groups that I'm a part of too, it's not just white people. Internalized racism can exist within or against absolutely any group. If you're black, you can absolutely internalize points of our culture that lead you to hold and reflect beliefs against black people. This is like 101 stuff, for example. And you can say it goes against white people sometimes too, but the fact that Robin D'Angelo won't even touch on the idea that people who are not white can hold these biases that will also reflect in negative ways against non-white people means that her priority is not addressing racism. Her priority is grifting money out of guilty liberal whites. That is her number one priority. That is, I find it repulsive, frankly. I think that it's a rejection, not only of the things she claims to support, but it makes my job harder. This is genuinely delightful because I genuinely thought we were gonna disagree on this issue because again, I'm not gonna try and talk about Robin D'Angelo specifically because I don't know her, but true liberals and true conservatives are united in one respect, at least one respect. We believe in the sovereignty of the individual and the trouble with the way, and again, forget the academic setting because I don't know anything about it. The way that CRT is propagated in the modern world in the West, it's they're encouraging us to think racially. They want us to be racially conscious and racially blind at the same time. This is why, you remember when I opened my opening remarks where I object to CRT because it's collectivist. This is where I think a lot of this stuff collapses down. My politics were largely shaped by studying the Holocaust, visiting Auschwitz, things like that. That's what I'm worried about. That's what I fear whenever we talk about race, we talk about racial groups coming against each other and things like, well, not with you specifically, but in general. And so that's why I believe I champion individualism as much as humanly possible because if you think- Can I point to that? Just really quick? Yeah, go for it. I just wanna say it's a matter of reconciling the two because I believe it's possible to hold in your mind a systemic and collective critique of social systems while also believing in one's individual autonomy within it. The example that I have for this is, so say you're like a poor black guy who grew up in East Los Angeles. I had many such friends when I was growing up. It is a virtual statistical guarantee that born into that environment, your life is going to be very difficult and at least economically not very fruitful. It's terrible, but that is just the case. The numbers bear that out and have for generations. Now, I can make that statement confidently talking about the group, but to my individual friends in that environment, did I ever say you should give up? There's not really much of a point your environment is set against you? Never said that, wouldn't either if I could go back and talk to them again ever because I'm not a lunatic. It's a matter of understanding that there are systemic critiques but individual action. Likewise, with the Robin D'Angelo thing, she makes the mistake of ascribing broader systemic critiques to individual action and making prescriptive judgments from that. Sure, you can be a white person and you can believe that, yeah, maybe with my shitty racist dad, I did internalize some bad stuff. That's the thing you can think of, like it's worth thinking about at least, but then walking around constantly thinking of yourself as this agent whose interests are diametrically opposed to your black neighbor, your black landlord, the black friend you have, a thing that you have to recognize and be conscious of and apologize for. Not only is that psychotic and exhausting, it's also a misattribution of your priorities. Individually, you should be kind to the people around you. You should consider yourself and your biases, sure, but as an individual, you and your black neighbor and your black friend, I'm saying you because I'm assuming that you're white. I mean, you're white, I'm white, so yeah. So you and the people around you have different races. Your dynamics, your interplay, they're determined by you, your life, your biases, your consciousness. The broader stuff comes into the scene with broader critiques. And I think that you can maintain both of those without undermining the individualism because I very much believe in the importance of individualism. It's one of the reasons why I'm so keen on getting rid of these systemic biases because nothing undermines individualism than the near sociological guarantee that a group of people are fucked from birth because of the zip code that they're born into. Nothing subverts it harder than being able to look at a person's driver's license and know with almost absolute certainty what economic class they're a part of. That is anti-individualism. So to achieve that, the dream of true individual autonomy, I feel like the only way to do that is to be simultaneously conscious of but also sort of deferential to some of these systemic problems. All I'll say is that I think about systemic issues regarding race a lot but I just don't think about it when I'm hanging out with people in my life who are like of different races or genders or whatever. I never think of it when I'm interacting with them. I think of them and myself as individuals and then when I'm sitting here, I'm thinking of things I guess in a broader sense because it feels more prescriptively useful when talking about stuff like policy. Well, but this is where I think the difference between you and me is I mean, you want to talk about being born in a certain zip code determines your future. I'm from the UK. We have a deeply entrenched class system and have had it for almost a thousand years. It's I don't have any hope that you can fix it. If you are born into what you call it the housing project, I would call it a council estate. If you're born and raised there, the chances of you becoming prime minister are, well, there is no chance. So I'm afraid I don't, where we disagree, I don't believe that you can fix systemic issues to use that phrase. What I, so yeah, so we champion individualism. We try to liberate as much as possible but ultimately there is going to be a hierarchy of some kind and it's not going to be entirely fair. So I don't think you can fix it entirely. You talk about obviously not walking around with this sort of psychotic obsession with how you interact with other people. Again, that's the sort of thing that's winding people up and you're right. I agree with you on that score. You can't walk around thinking like that because that would be insane. You'd go mad, you wouldn't be able to think about anything else. The other thing that also bothers me about all of this talk about racial grouping and things like that is, I mean, as I said, I don't know you personally, but you're apparently like Irish and Polish. Is that right? Nailed it, yeah. Most people don't even know the Polish bit. Yeah, well, they're Irish and Polish, right? So those are two white, pink populations. I don't like using white and black because I think they're loaded terms, but those are two pink majority populations that have also experienced colonization and genocide. But because they're your pink and therefore not brown and therefore you can't be, you're seen by a lot of people as, well, you're still white and therefore you're still white. And that really winds me up because you think the Slavic tribes of Eastern Europe have been slaughtering each other for millennia. The Irish have been occupied, England has occupied Ireland for what 900 years now with varying degrees of success. I won't dwell on that because Stephen Ryan's probably in the comment section screaming now. But, and of course, Jews, the Ashkenazi of Europe possibly the most persecuted tribe in European history with the exception of the Roma people. So the idea that pink people can't experience deep issues is, well, actually I would argue it's racist, but also it's not covered. It's not covered by any of the stuff that I'm reading from commentators. And again, I'm not talking about serious academics that you might have talked to, but the way this stuff is being abused in the wider culture. So those groups get shafted because they're not covered by something and they really deserve to be covered. Well, the big problem with me, and this actually goes back into a central problem that I have with something earlier that you said that I'll address shortly is, so, okay, two things then. First of all, with regards to how to fix systemic problems like this, we do know that we can fix these problems to an extent though, right? The problem is like we try, we make essentially no effort to. Right now, Detroit is undergoing a massive urban renaissance as a bunch of the old elements of city architecture are being dismantled in favor of a renewed public transport system, a restructuring of the suburban population, stuff like that. And apparently it's led to an extraordinary increase. Guys, it is Detroit, right? It's not Chicago, it's not Detroit. I think it's Detroit, it's one of those cities. I'm pretty sure it's Detroit. There's been a huge, huge, is it Chicago? It's one of those goddamn cities. Anyway, there's been a huge, they're pulling my leg. There's been a huge uptick in the degree of social mobility, the access to public services and the part of poor people on account of these fundamental civic changes. There are changes we can make to the way our suburbs are designed, our public transportation, the way our IT cards are divvied and the laws we have with regards to voting. All of the, I'm speaking of course here in America, but I know that fundamentally a lot of these problems exist in the UK as well in their own ways. The political system's fairly different, but in terms of infrastructure and public systems and the way the NHS has been privatized to an extent and sort of whittled off over the past few decades, there are ways in which these systems can be addressed. And the autonomy that I'm looking for, the individualism that I'm hoping for is something which is at the end of that tunnel, a product that we can arrive at after a sufficient amount of investment has been put into making sure society does allow, I mean, if you want to think of it this way, the wheat to be separated from the chaff, right? We don't really know at the moment because I mean, here in America at least, if you're like an upper middle class white person born in the suburbs, you can be an absolute loser and live a life of fair decency and comfort, and get and consume more than a dozen poor people. And you can be an extraordinarily talented young black man who grows up in like East LA and you can get and do and consume nothing and all your intelligence will mean nothing as you're buried in a populous grave. It's horrible. If we're looking then to the dream of people's talents being reflected in the lives that they live, this is something that we need to do, establish a bar, a bottom floor, and we've come so far since the Industrial Revolution. The introduction of social security in this country, Medicare and Medicaid, when they were introduced respectively, led to an extraordinary reduction in the gap of available opportunities and outcomes for people who did previously and didn't qualify for those benefits. In short, basically a close the gap. There are other programs that have done similarly. Even the war against poverty, Lyndon B. Johnson's Great Society, flawed and insufficient as it was, there were noticeable improvements. All of these payback in the long run, by the way. For example, investment in, I think it's WIC, the Women's Infants, it's one of our social programs designed for underprivileged women and children, I think. I believe that it was for every $1 you invest in that program, you pay back $7. You get $7 more out of it because it means that fewer unwanted children are getting born, it means that more people have access to healthier food, which means that they don't have as many medical problems down the line. There are a bunch of down the road benefits. Investment in these basic social services leads to huge payouts in the long run if handled and managed effectively. Very often it's not that the government can handle these programs, it's that the elected representatives don't want them to. Because the elected representatives, often the conservative parties, at least here in America, again, different countries, benefit politically from the government's failure because they don't want the groups that are disadvantaged at the moment to reap the benefits of a positive set of social systems. Or if the government does poorly, that's good for their brand because they sell themselves on the idea that the government doesn't work. So if they don't let the government work, it works fine. You said that the far right push is a backlash to critical race theory. And it's certainly true that right now we're getting like this wide swath of that. But as I understand it, the big far right push in Europe started to really kick into gear during the migrant crisis. And I think it speaks to, there's variants there. That's a very temporal, you could start it at a number of points. But what it seems to me is that it's true that I'm going to call it very loosely misbehavior on the part of left-leaning people, like all of this black separatist nonsense that I see on TikTok. Let's just use misbehavior I think in the broad term. It's true that it riles the right up and it gives them a lot to attack. It's very bad optically and it's horrible just in general. But I feel like the right, at least some parts of it is very, very talented at riling up their constituency no matter what's going on, you know? Like, I mean, they were doing it back in the 60s too, right? I mean, back during the civil rights movement. It's not like they were totally fine with what was going on because there were no crazy elements of what was taking place. They were accusing Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. of rioting and anti-white violence and being a communist and being in line with the Jews to destroy America and blah, blah. So while it's true there are always things the left is doing to make things harder for ourselves. I think we have to be very principled in our rejection of reactionary values even if they seem like to be a product of the behavior of the far left because there's a very long road you can run down. I mean, after all, not to Godwin's law but Hitler did say of course that what he was doing was justified because the Bolshevik Jewish population was destroying Germany's banks and society with reparations, blah, blah, blah. You know, they always try to sell it as some victim thing. It's always, we need to do this because of X and Y. So I always try to be careful with those narratives because it feels like you could, by legitimizing them you could lead to them justifying quite a bit of bad stuff. Well, I mean, you know, I agree. I rambled for a really long time there, by the way. I'd just like to apologize. No, I'm guilty of that myself. No, the trouble with them, you're right. But to be honest, I would say it's true for both sides. The left and the right love to play the victim card but it depends on how you're using the playing victim or playing the victim card. There are people on the right who suggest that, you know Western civilization is coming to an end. We need to tighten, you know we need to basically adopt sort of neo-fascistic style of politics to protect ourselves. I don't buy that at all. I believe in conserving existing institutions. The awkward thing with the NHS is that I don't agree that privatizing elements of the NHS is necessarily a bad thing. Conservatives are not necessarily hostile to it either. I mean, people forget that Winston Churchill was instrumental in funding, in supporting the NHS in its earliest incarnation. People forget that stuff. But yeah, so you are right. The rise of hard right, far right, call it wherever you will in the European societies is partly to do with a, in response to the migrant crisis particularly in places like Hungary where they managed to get, was it like 400, 500,000 Syrian refugees cross their borders in about two weeks or something daft. And no country on earth, certainly a country the size of Hungary can process that many people effectively without there being massive cockups and general, you know political and social backlash. I mean, it's just normal. But in the Anglosphere, the English-speaking world, a lot of this stuff is in response to critical race theory. The Conservative Party issued a report on wokery, wokism or whatever. There's obviously the Sewell report from the Commission on Race and Ethnic Charities was called for by Boris Johnson. It's not that Dr. Sewell is a friend of Boris Johnson. It doesn't work like that. On all the commissioners were, most of the commissioners were not pink. So they had a vested interest in, you know destroying systemic racism, but their conclusions were more nuanced. And I think that is why the Sewell report has been largely rejected by sort of misbehaving elements of the left to use your phrasing. But yeah, I think we need, I think it's, the solution is while racism is real, I think what we need, both sides need to calm down. Both sides need to come together, break bread, hold hands in Kumbaya or something and try to hash out something that's a little bit more subtle than what is being proposed by people on the internet or in wider society because it could go badly wrong. And it could go badly wrong for people who don't necessarily look like me. So that's my real objection. Yeah, there you go. No, I just, the problem is I didn't expect you to speak in good faith on this issue. I've spoken to a lot of people whose opposition to critical race theory has been very dumb and also has been very racially motivated. But there's not any of that in you. So I guess I would love to break bread and do the Kumbaya thing because I really like focusing on policies. I feel like a lot of people, especially conservatives nowadays, they hammer in on the economic issues. And that's important because I think that affects people more severely than a lot realize. And also because I feel like we could agree on those really, really easily. When it comes to stuff like reparations, when I talk about it, I just mean, allow our underdeveloped cities to breathe for God's sake. Why are the cities are the way they are? Well, because our governors would rather, governors and mayors would rather spend money on stadiums to attract sports teams and publicity rather than spend all that money on repairing their fucking roads or on building new highways or on investing in public transportation. And our schools are this and that. It's just about allowing things to be better for people using methods that have tried and true that work. We know they work. But with this critical race theory thing, very often people's opposition to it seems to be a broader opposition of anything that is anti-racist. So your opposition, like you talk about like Robert DeAngelo and stuff and thank God because I hate Robert DeAngelo. But sometimes people will say that it's critical race theory to teach in schools that America was fundamentally racist when it was created. Which, I mean, I don't know. First of all, I don't know if that's the terminology used in like elementary schools, but I mean, it was a slave empire when it was founded. So it seems like it would be a fairly salient criticism to go ahead with one way or another. How can I leave on that? Just to say. I only want to say that while again, this isn't critical race theory, it's just so often critical race theory gets invoked as a criticism of like anything progressive say that have anything to do with race. And in that respect, I feel like we have so little to agree on because they push for, oh, you know, in school you can't teach this or that, push for patriotic education, you know? Now all of our education is doctrinal. Now it's, you know, highly ideologically motivated. I can't agree to stuff like that. But if the agreement were to be things like, you know, we could work together on this project to benefit everyone economically and raise up the disparity a little bit, that would be amazing. I wish we could get along on that. Yeah. Well, no, I mean, I'm bleeping onto that for a second. I've read an awful lot of stuff. And this is not, you know, I'm not, you know, hanging out on the dark web. I don't go on naughty websites with swastikas all over the homepage. That's not my, that's not my, my milieu at all. But there is a lot of stuff online that's been released. This stuff like, you must, you must have read this about talking about like, for example, in business Coca-Cola in Atlanta, where they did a slideshow and one of the sentences was tried to be less white and things like that. I did a video on that one. Oh, you did? Well, so did I. That was actually one of my first viral hits, was me commenting on this utterly ridiculous toxic crap. I was Robin the Antelope, by the way. Oh, was it? Oh, was it? Robin the Antelope made that PowerPoint. I can't say anything because James will hit me. Right, okay. No, the problem, they're talking about education. The problem is, is that it's being used as a weapon. And this is, because of one thing we definitely, definitely, definitely agree on is we don't want to section, we don't want to parcel society off into racial tribes. Because when you've got, I mean, there's always going to be racial tension to some degree. You put two tribes on one patch of land, there's going to be racial tension. It's just going to happen, right? But the trouble with the way this is being used in schools is yes, your country was indeed, you know, when the genocide slavery, et cetera, et cetera. My country, you know, we made the fortune out of the slave trade, you know, things like that. I mean, municipal buildings in like Glasgow, Bristol, London, they're funded by a lot of slave plantations or plantations that you, you know, use slaves. The problem is, is that I think the objection, at least in your country, when it comes to education, is that this theory, whatever it is, I mean, if it's critical race theory or something else, is being used to encourage people to divide on racial lines and then to turn against each other in a kind of like divide and rule strategy. That's the deep fear that I have. And that sort of stuff is coming into the UK. And for some, because again, they ignore all cultural and national nuances and there is now a backlash to it in British society. People are now worried that their children are being taught this stuff. And I mean, Britain, for all of its flaws, its many, many, many flaws, is one of the most successful multicultural societies in Europe. We lead Europe in terms of interracial marriage and things like that. The mayor of London is a British Pakistani, for example. I think we've now got the most diverse parliamentary body that we've ever had. And again, that wasn't by design. That's just because this diverse body of politicians reflects wider British society and the mood of the British people. So a lot of this stuff, which is cooked up in America, doesn't work in America, but it definitely doesn't work in Britain. And it's going to create a lot of tribal conflict. Well, again, keep in mind, if we're just talking about the product of Robin D'Angelo here, it's really just whether or not the federal institutions and the corporations hire her as a consultant or hire people who reflect the kind of language that she uses. It's just in Black Lives Matter, the movement here in America, the marches had hundreds of millions of people. It was the largest civil rights march in the history of this country. There was many thousands of marches, but broadly the movement was enormous and it was also multiracial. The overwhelming ideological bent for anti-racists in this country is Black, white, brown, Asian, whatever, people working together to address systemic inequality. This Robin D'Angelo consultant, merchant class, white people need to be constantly walking on tiptoed eggshells to avoid microaggression, this stuff. This is a fraction of a fraction of a fraction. And the only reason it's blown up to the extent that it has is because of conservative media hyping it up. If left-leaning media had controlled the reins on what elements of anti-racist discourse were promoted, you would be seeing Black Lives Matter protests, the hundreds of thousands of people marching in New York or Los Angeles in tandem, shoulder to shoulder, black and white, chanting against police brutality. We don't see those. We got a couple videos of those, maybe. We mostly got videos of a couple of buildings being lit on fire in Portland. And now we have a literal congressman, like Matt Gates, accusing the Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman of being like a woke tool of critical race theorists because he refused to denounce an academic theory of which he, at least my understanding, had no apparent understanding what it was or what it meant. And now people on the right, including Donald Trump, are calling for his resignation. Now Fox is too. This scare, this fear-mongering is being driven largely by the right. Like the idea that questions on critical race theory, which at least by your description, I mean, we're largely talking about consultants in workplaces and their myopic and stupid attitudes towards anti-racism is now being talked about in the highest echelons of our political system. This is absolute madness. And I think that their fear-mongering has gone well, well, well beyond what could be justified based on the behavior of the left-leaning people here. I mean, now we have like military generals being asked their opinion of critical race theory. Like this is the McCarthy era, you know? Are you a communist or have you ever known a communist? This is, if this was the same world, this conversation would be either held exclusively in academia, please. Or it would, so I don't have to touch it either. Or it would be like this, you know, it would be an argument between progressive anti-racists and like liberal anti-racists over the appropriate way to encourage people to, you know, address racial issues in the immediate environment they live in. It would not be like governors passing laws preventing the teaching of CRT and the president calling for the resignation. This is, it's very scary. I am legitimately scared because the McCarthy era was only 70-ish years ago. And I know very well that from the Satanic panic and from Christ, even Jack Thompson, Jack Dorsey, with the video game... Oh, yes, yes, I know, yeah, I know video, I mean, I'm not a gamer, but I know all of him, yes. He spoke to Congress, not Jack Dorsey. That's the, sorry, Jack Thompson. That seems that I'm the head of Twitter, isn't it? You know Jack Dorsey. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Jack's on the, I know who you're talking about. It was the same with the comics code. Every once in a while, every... And there's usually something that incites it from the left, but there's this conservative wave of fear mongering from some kind of radical, subversive, you know, anti-American new trend. And every time that thing, that trend is ill-defined, it's vaguely conceptualized, but it's a systemic existential threat to the world. And everything is justified as a response, whether it means cracking down an education, mass firings in the government, like huge fear mongering campaigns in media, that stuff scares me way more than the worst excesses of whatever Robin D'Angelo writes about, you know? So that's what I have to focus on. Maybe there are elements of this that are out of line, but that stuff is a legitimate threat to freedom of speech in this country. No, I mean, I understand that obviously passing laws, I mean, as someone who is, as I said before, a free speech advocate, I don't like being, I don't like cancel culture. And I'm one of those people who believes that cancel culture really exists because I've been the victim of it in mild forms. I don't like laws being passed to censor academic inquiry. That doesn't sit right with me. I don't like that kind of academic censorship at all. I want all ideas, including shitty ones, to be broadcast and readily available. So if you are, shall we say, a white nationalist and you want to promote that kind of philosophy, I would let you do that just so that I could tear you down because in my experience, that actually works. When sunlight is the best disinfectant, you put your arguments forward and we'll have a chat and then I'll prove you wrong in about five seconds because you're an idiot. And that seems to be the healthiest response to bad ideas. Column pink boy, second. Column pink boy, they hate that. Pink boy, yeah, something like that. There's no white nationalist, I mean, yeah. Oh yeah, and I was like, why people don't exist, sharp. Anyway, never mind, moving on. So yeah, so obviously I don't approve the censorship, but I think a lot of this stuff, because as a mild conservative, I can speak, I can say this as much. My instinct is to preserve what the good things that we have. Reform is our entertain reform, but I won't entertain revolution because the system, while you might think it's flawed and because it is, it doesn't deserve to be destroyed. It doesn't deserve to be brought down. I like free market capitalism. I like the monarchy. I like British parliamentary democracy. I like this stuff and I want to keep it. And I want to pass it down because it mostly works. But the trouble is that this, whether it's CRT or some mutant form offspring of CRT, I think it's being appropriated by bad actors who mean to break stuff. They're not really interested in fixing, tweaking little problems, because that's really petty. It's very small. It's very quiet. And it's kind of boring really, isn't it? Let's be honest. It's kind of boring. You don't get a lot of, whereas setting things on fire or, you know, stirring up revolutionary further. Ooh, that gets you in the history books. You get photographs and the press and everything. So I think, yeah, okay, maybe a lot of the right wing reactionary stuff is overblown and a bit hysterical. But the left has got a lot of soul searching to do. It's got to look in wood and say, how are we fucking this up? Because there are, and you know, you know that this was, the left is fucking this up. They, they, they, it's parts of it, parts of it because the majority, again, the fact, we're really, I mean, we're talking about a limited framework here, the vast majority of the black lives matter protests and the associated advocacy and the part of our democratic party and most of our educational and social institutions is one of locking arms, right? I mean, if you could, so I think you agree with me on this, but if I can get you to, so I wholeheartedly denounce this, this myopic liberal reactionary attitude towards anti-racism, which is promoting, which promotes fear mongering and otherization, the idea that white people should feel guilty, the idea that black people should feel victimized. Right, like, yeah, like, like, like, like, off, like they're being hurt by the people around them in unjustified ways. What would be a good term for that? The idea that, you know what, oversensitive, the idea that black people or whatever should be oversensitive because doing so is a way of extracting penance from the privileged around them. I think these are reactionary ideas. I just think that we can fight against them without kind of promoting the narrative that may legitimately lead to like the First Amendment rights in my country being subverted by the conservative party, you know? Well, I don't know anything about, I mean, it's the first I've heard of the idea of the First Amendment being suppressed by the conservative party. In fact, the way it's been sold to me is that it's the other side of the aisle that's actually doing the subversion. I mean, Black Lives Matter, I mean, it's, we're sort of drifting away from critical race theory, it'll be here, but Black Lives Matter, BLM, as I just call it normally, I have problems with, because again, while I could argue, while I'm happy to admit that Black Lives Matter, as much or as little as white lives do, and I'm not gonna contest that point, there's something about the organization. I mean, I've had this conversation with Steve and Ryan, who runs a YouTube channel called Sider & Port. I'll stop promoting this stuff now because I'm not getting paid. But I have problems with the organization because I think, again, bad actors to manipulate it. Can I just say one quick thing before you continue with that? Go on. Just keep in mind that the protests here in America took hundreds of millions. The organization has run by like, it was like a few dozen people, or they had like three reps who anyone knew about. Like the organization, very few people even knew about or did anything regarding the organization. It was mostly just the big movement that people cared about. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt, it's just, sometimes- No, no, no. I mean, I mean, it's not this, this is another thing that, another aspect of this whole, you know, race relations thing that bothers me. When I say that I oppose BLM, I don't oppose the sentiment of BLM. I oppose the organization that promotes the sentiment, if you like. And I promote the movement. Why is this the only organization that gets any broad, you know, gets broadcast, you know, gets any kind of media attention, for example. I went on their public website many, many, many moons ago and I looked at their about page and I saw there were all sorts of things that they were standing for. Like it wasn't just about police brutality, et cetera, et cetera. It was about ending the nuclear family. It was about ending capitalism. It was about, I mean, hang on, wait a minute. What's this got to do with about, you know, policemen beating up black people with sticks? That's nothing to do with it. And so I became incredibly cynical about BLM. Because you're kind of sort of using the topic of police brutality, which we all agree is a problem. I mean, it's just not nice. But you're using that as a kind of a wedge issue, is that the right phrase? To sort of drive in other policies that have nothing to do with it. And I'm thinking, well, no, I can't endorse it. But again, this is the problem with bad actors. This is the problem with bad faith, bad faith representatives of these ideas is that they corrupt the discourse to use that phrase. I think you've used that. And that's the stuff that people pay attention to. And that's where a lot of this backlash comes from. But there's a reason for that though. It doesn't get paid attention to as a product of this organic exchange of information. It gets paid attention to because those are the issues that conservatives know they can best fear monkey over. Even if, and I guarantee this, even if the left was extraordinarily and disproportionately effective in promoting all of their ideas in the most optically effective way, there would be no attention driven to it. They would just work harder to find the things they could effectively fear monkey over. It's always something, right? I mean, it's just the, when I think of Black Lives Matter, I don't even think of the organization, for example. I just, I think of the incredible spontaneous movement across this country in response. I mean, it was around before then, but largely in response to George Floyd's murder. And all the hundreds of millions who participated and protested in these peaceful protests widely across the board, that broke every previous record for organic participation in anything in this country. And to so many people in this country, Black Lives Matter is represented entirely by like a trio of women who run an organization that shares its name and like Antifa and Portland. And that's it. And I don't know how you could do the math on this, but I feel like we're talking about a degree of good faith participation, which exponentially outweighs anything argumentatively, you know, negative. And yet we know where the media attention goes. So I just, I have to be careful about this. And I have to push back on the narrative that like the left is enabling all of this, even to the extent that they do, if they didn't at all, I don't know if it would matter. I don't know if it would change anything. I feel like, I mean, the fact that Robin D'Angelo alone commands so much attention and time, not just with you, I have to make videos on her. She's just a random fucking author. She's not even an academic. She's not like Chomsky. She's not a DNC operative. She's just this random white lady consultant, but everyone talks about her, including me. I don't, it's such small avenues and axes command so much of our time and attention, but we can agree on the fundamentals, can't we? Civics, infrastructure, education, transportation, like these are things that we should be focusing on. Yeah, no, I can agree to that, yeah. But as I say, I mean, the only thing I would say, I mean, just sort of like tweaking that a little bit is that, yeah, okay, there are right-wingers who do you exploit these conversations to push a negative, it's sort of like a dark agenda for want of a better phrase. But as I say, I don't like the narrative. I mean, I'm not saying that you've promoted this, but I don't like the idea that it's only the right that's fiddling with this stuff. There are bad actors on the left as well. The different, the thing is, Vosch, is that you're left of center, I'm right of center, at least I think I am, at least in British terms. We just have to police our own houses. That's essentially what we have to do. We have to be introspective and look at our own side and just make sure that we're all behaving ourselves. One of my hobbies, well, I'd say it's a hobby, it's a bloody chore, is going through my own comment section, ripping out all the white nationalists who just sort of like dribble into my comment threads who seem to find me on TikTok. That seems, because again, I mean, I don't necessarily block them, but I challenge them because I feel like I've got to do that. So that's my approach to the problem. It's just policing the far right that sort of wonder on my part. You should see my channel. I swear to God, I spend more time yelling at the left than I do the right. Actually, I have seen you do that on occasion. I was quite pleased to see that, because I was concerned, because obviously you are, a massive online lefty, I mean, even I've heard it, I thought you might be forming some sort of amorphous lefty militia or something of online acolytes. That's next year. We're working on it, okay? Yeah, baby steps, baby steps. Right, until then we got to cut the chaff a bit. No, I do agree with policing your own. It's something that I've always broken with from the rest of the left. There are people who think you're strongest when you lock arms, never look left or right, never criticize, just push, you know? Yeah, that's just wrong. It's just wrong. There are elements where dogmatic advocacy can be effective, and that comes at a cost. Dogmatism always does. But for the most part, I think that we benefit from introspection and education. The only issue is like a lot, it feels like a lot of the problems we're complaining about are so much more grounded, you know? Fox News talks about gender-neutral Mr. Potato Head and pride parades. And then if you go on a CNN or MSNBC, for the most part, it's like, oh, a conservative congressman just publicly announced that they don't think Latinos have souls. And they believe that there is an ancient cult of Filipinos who are casting a witch's spell against President Trump. All Americans come together and protect him with your spiritual energy. It feels like there's a big disparity there, you know? And sometimes... Oh, sorry. No, no, no, I'm sorry, I was interrupting you, I think. But no, I mean, you are right. I mean, one of the reasons why the... I mean, you know this because I watched one of your videos was your response to the December 2019 general election in the UK where the conservatives won by a landslide. And I watched that video, and obviously, and all the lefties that I know, socialists, anarchists coming, and I do know a lot of these people, were stunned, they couldn't believe it. Why is the Conservative Party, why are they winning all the time? Because the Conservative Party are talking about bread and butter issues. They're talking about pay, they're talking about Brexit. I know, I'm not a big fan of Brexit, but you know, they're talking about Brexit. They're talking about things that the ordinary people in the street actually care about. Now, you might disagree with their policies, that's a different conversation. But you guys are talking about, we're not you specifically, but the lefties talking about, you know, neo-pronouns and like vegan lasagna or something. And it's like, you know, this stuff is too niche, it's too high-minded, it's too academic, and it's not resonating with people. I think the big issue is that the Conservative Party over there talks about the issues they told everyone to care about. I mean, the Brexit stuff, a lot of that stuff was marketed on nonsense. The Brexit Party, 18-gajillion dollars going to the EU instead of the, you know, the big bus with the, right, we're speaking outside of the US and what have you. But the problem is like, Labour constantly talked about wages and lowering living costs though. The thing is that they, the problem was, I think if anything, it was the opposite. They focused too hard on the principal issues. They talked about economics and what people needed and cared about. You know, Corbyn's little manifesto was just chock full of things immediately relevant to the lives of people. But what if Boris Johnson, what did the Conservatives do? It seems like they talk about, well, they talk about the same meaningless culture issues that Republicans do here in the US, you know, Brexit, you know, make Britain strong again, this flavored nationalism that gets people to vote for you when you don't actually promise anything better for their lives. I confess to lacking some degree of familiarity with these issues here, but I'm actually, you're blackpilled on making, on addressing systemic issues. I'm blackpilled on the effectiveness of talking about issues that affect people's lives. It feels like this day, the most you can do to get people's attention on you is to relentlessly fear monger. And that's just across the board. I mean, Trump and Biden came within, what, seven million votes of each other? But the Democratic Party is significantly larger than the Republican Party. And Biden talked about issues affecting the average American. He talked about stuff like medical costs. He talked about stuff like wages, $15 an hour minimum wage. Trump didn't talk about any of that shit. Trump was fucking insane, the whole election run up. He talked about how... I'll let you wrap up the next couple of sentences. Oh, then I'll finish my sentence, then you can have the last go because I don't want to ramble off. I just, Trump talked about insane shit. Trump talked about like how Antifa would burn down the world and how like we needed to protect our own and you should be expelled from the country if you were burning the flag. And it felt like it was so divorced from anything that affects people's real lives, but that cultivated quite a lot of voters. I don't know, that stuff really scares me. I'm not a big fan of nationalism. I, well, it depends on what we mean by nationalism, I guess. If it's, well, just to wrap up then because I mean, James wants us to. Yes, I mean, I don't, I mean, we can't talk really about Brexit and Corbyn and my deep, deep, deep resentment of that man because we haven't got the time and it's sort of drifting away from the main topic. So yeah, I mean, it's quite possible then that the critical race theory that I'm thinking of is not CRT at all. I would concede that point, but it is what is being promoted as CRT and I resist it vehemently and I believe that I'm doing so for the benefit of people who don't look like me. That's essentially it. I think we actually agree on an awful lot which is actually kind of scary in a weird way. Got to guess it. Yeah, well, yeah, so, but as I say, I still critical race theory as I have read about it as it's being promoted, whether it or not it's real CRT is dangerous and must be stopped. It must, we must stop it. Yeah, that's my position. And I think we kind of sort of agree there. There you go, James. Is that a good enough summary? You've got it. Thank you very much. Folks, wanna remind you our guests are linked in the description. If you haven't already clicked on their links, what are you waiting for? You can click on those links right now. And that includes if you're listening to this debate via the podcast, we put our guest links in the description box there as well. So check them out. And we are jumping into the Q and A. We are gonna move quickly as Kenden folks. I don't know if you know if Kenden, maybe you didn't know, Kenden, what time is it right now where you are? Seven minutes to three in the morning. Oh, yeah. Thanks for staying up so late with us, Kenden. We really do appreciate you being a team player. I'm surprised I'm still awake. I have had tactical coffee but I'm still awake. Cider and Port happens to be the first one chiming in. Says Kenden, you know we're friends but I have to root for Vosh on this one. Vosh's sex appeal is just too much. I think anyone who was attracted to me would be attracted to Kenden for advice versa. All my chat has been doing is making jokes about how there are two of me or two of you on the screen. I get lots of this. I mean, obviously if I take my glasses off, people on TikTok say that I look like Jack Black as well. So I get lots of duet videos of me looking like Jack Black and things like that. So, no, I mean, well, I mean, Steven, I know that you're a mad Irish socialist lefty wonk. Therefore you have to side with Vosh. It's like the law or something. So I don't take it personally. Although you spurn my love, you bastard. Carry on. This one coming in from UKPI says, we pick out differences in people. It's inherent. I'm not sure what their point is. I'm not sure. I'm just giving it up early. Yeah, I'll just, wait, I'll just say, yeah, we do. I just, what are you gonna get from that? Yeah, I'm not sure. I'm not sure what the, I'm like, I'm with James, but I'm not sure what the point ultimately was. If they could elaborate, that'd be great, but yeah. Next one coming in from the Batman says, too much agreeing, can we get Vosh versus JF on CRT? Well, we'll see. Wait, wait, hold on, wait, wait. Just wanna be perfectly clear. What'd you just say? Who's JF? Oh, JF, but he's a Nazi. Oh, oh, he's one of them, he's a twat, I see. Right, so, conversations like this are infinitely more productive than any conversation I could ever have. Like, he doesn't even believe in democracy. Of course, he's not going to, but he believes in a white ethno-state. Of course, he disagrees with critical race theory. Like, obviously. Yeah, but this is the thing, it's like, I mean, can I, I'm sorry, go ahead and pick up on this. I'm one of the, I used to live in the Middle East. When I was a teacher at 24, I emigrated to Oman, and I used to teach in a British high school out there. So I'm one of the few people I know who's actually lived in an ethno-state. I've been to places like, you know, Thailand, Japan, or whatever. Why does anybody want to live in an ethno-state? It's boring. It's ultimately boring. You know, they have no idea the world was, I mean, well, never mind. Anyway, that's, that's just, you know, are you spare at the species sometimes? The most functional ethno-state-e country in the West is Japan, and their social infrastructure is crumbling because they have a hard time attracting workers and nobody fucks over there. Yeah, and I was going to say in a hundred years, according to the economists, the ethnic Japanese will be extinct because they're not breeding fast enough. They just, you know, their populations are dying out and they're in like 200% GDP and national debt and they've got no idea how foreign cultures work because they never really interact with them. So yeah, it's a bit, but not, yeah. Sorry, James, James wants us to move on. No worries. Well, you've got this one coming in from Sugar Wire. Thanks so much for your support. I couldn't agree more. They said, great discussion. And so, Kenden and Vosh, thank you guys. It's been a pleasure. As Cider and Port chimes in again, saying Vosh officially now knows who I am. So it's official, I can now die a happy man. Kenden, we must speak soon. So you both have a fan in Steven. And Farron Salas says, seeing James in full black, quote, this Prince of Darkness has arrived, AKA little Nikki. I am a huge old Adam Sandler movie fan. So thanks for that reference. Ann says, thank you so much to the debaters. I couldn't agree more. Our guests are linked in the description, folks. Click those links. And JP says, Vosh is wrong. Rahmet D'Angelo has written critical social justice and critical pedagogy books beyond white fragility. Her work is based in critical theory and common in college pedagogy classes. Wait, pedagogy? Wait. Pedagogy means teaching. Okay. Pedagogy. Method of teaching. Okay. So what this person in the comments section is saying is that Robin D'Angelo is not just a freak of nature, but she's actually tapping into something real that's in colleges. Is that a general point? Well, I mean, I'm sure there are some professors who favor her writing, but I was, I mean, I'm a sociology major and I was fairly tapped into the Pacific Northwest sociology environment. And I just did not see this stuff. I'll say this much, okay? Not only from my schooling, but from the experiences that have had everywhere outside an incredibly specific subset of people online, people do not seem to like the stuff that Robin D'Angelo has to say. It usually seems to be enjoyed by like guilty white, suburban wine moms who are latently racist, but feel kind of bad about it. And they want to overcompensate for it by like, by this, the kind of people who sweat a little bit when they meet their black neighbor and say person of color, like to their face. You know? Well, person of color, that's a phrase that needs to be scrapped. I mean, person of color and colored person are pretty much the same thing. I don't like it because again, it's generic. It's like, well, what color, what color are they then? Well, I don't understand. Is it little things like that that wind me up? But I mean, this is the thing. I mean, as I say, we disagree on what is CRT and whatever, this kind of sort of cod CRT stuff. It can't defeat institutional racism because it basically is institutional racism, just a different form of it. So yeah, I mean, well, if this... I think POC just gets used as a shorthand for non-white, which is useful in a lot of American racial discussions because we have a general understanding of the histories and contexts in which different racial groups deal with different stuff in this country. But I imagine that term kind of falls apart outside of at least white majority countries. You would ever use POC in like India, right? Cause like, what would you do? Like, oh yeah, like, oh yeah, there's white people in POC in Delhi? Like, okay, you know, what's the point? Yeah, anyway, with regards to Robin D'Angelo stuff, I don't have like data on the acceptance of her work, but I look, even if we accept that the ideas are super duper popular, I think we can fight against them without fighting against anti-racist them. I think that's something we have to preserve fundamentally. Gotcha. And this one coming up from made by Jim Bob says, Vosh, does critical race theory have predictive power at the level of the individual? If so, give us an example. Critical race theory doesn't make predictions about people's behavior on an individual level. So wouldn't, so critical race theory is just a lens of analysis on racial issues, which factors into account the disparate material and ideological goals and interests of those groups. It's critical theory distilled to a racial lens, but that doesn't have like predictive capabilities. It's not like an economic theory. So an example of like critical race theory and it's like most distilled sociological form would be like, you would ask a question, you know, why did the Civil Rights Act get passed? And then you could answer it. Well, there were conflicting interests between the black and white populations in America, which were reified somewhat by the increasingly multiracial nature of the civil rights protests and the outside pressure of different racial groups who are comparing the United States racial apartheid to the Soviet Union. It's a way of like factoring things in through conflict, you know, and then there's a whole legal side of things. But no, it's not about making individual predictions. Can I leap on that, James? Is that allowed? Sure. Yeah, so in support of Vosh, actually, one of the things that really winds me up with this new sort of like weird racial tribal division thing that's happening in Western cultures is that the only reason you don't want to encourage antagonism between black and white, which is effectively what this sort of bad faith pseudo CRT stuff is doing, because ultimately the only reason why black people got the vote in your countries because white people gave it to them. So it was in the interest people outside of the group, outside of the tribe, I'm simplifying it, helped to achieve that goal. Whereas if you divide people on racial lines, which is effectively what's happening now with these sort of bad faith actors, it's encouraging conflict, which is not gonna resolve any problems. So we do need to come together in more sense. And I don't think that the way that this is being, the subject is being handled is going to help that. You know, if there are systemic issues, as Vosh says, but that affects black people more than white people, you can't segregate the races and then pit them against each other. I don't know where I was going with that, to be honest. No, I completely agree. Yeah, we have to work arm in arm. We can't be, this is one of the reasons why I hate these woke TikTok zoomers who are like 16 years old, have a toddler's understanding of racial theory. And they're like, you know, actually, using any of these commonly used terms is AAVE and therefore racist if you're a white. And it's like bra in there and like lit. And it's like, what are you accomplishing when you say this? Like what do you, what dream are you working to achieve by getting white people to look at this? And like, oh, from now on, I'll just say yippee with something interesting out. What are you getting out of this? Nothing. Well, this is why I hate the, I mean, we didn't talk about it really, but I hate the concept of microaggression because like basically anything can be a microaggression if you abuse that idea thoroughly. You know, people would start treading on your words. What do you mean by that statement? What do you mean by this gesture and all the rest of it? And it encourages, it's almost like, I mean, I hate to use the word thought crime because it's a bit of a conspiratorial, but that's the kind of thing. And it's a bunch of, as you pointed out, a bunch of Zoomers on social media who are policing this stuff. And it's like, you don't actually know what you're talking about. Engagements like that have to be done in good faith. Like for me, originally, when I heard the term microaggression, you know, it would be like, here's the example I was given in school, right? It's, you are a black business owner. You're wearing a suit, you know, you're standing in like a new office. And there's like a white guy who's painting the walls next to you. He's wearing a painter's outfit. Contractor comes in, says, oh, hello, walks up and shakes the painter's hand. Now that to me, now, is this like explicitly racist? You know, not really, you can't really know, but like, if I was the black dude in the suit, like you're in a suit, you're standing there and the guy deliberately goes to the person who's painting, you have to, it's a thing to wonder about. Like, well, I don't know if it was racist, but damn, it felt like a little bit. And the response to that, the response to like feeling that is not to freak out about it or anything. It's just like to categorize and understand your thoughts. And maybe if you're like prone to doing stuff like that, like asking like Asian people in America where they're from, like that's another one, you know? Because like, there are Asians in America who have been here for 150 years. Like, where are you from? And they're like, oh, sorry, they're from LA and you're like, well, where are you really from? It's like, I don't know, I'm from LA. Sorry, okay, my apologies. No worries. Thank you very much for this one made by Jim Bob says, Vosch, what does quote unquote white mean? Are Irish and German people the same? White means literally whatever the person saying the word wants it to mean. It is a highly variable category that has absolutely no intrinsic value and it is frequently misused and abused to serve people's political interests. If we can all understand the arbitrarity of the term then maybe we could stop doing that. Yeah, I support Vosch in that one. The word white has been abused and there are populations that have been considered white that have lost their whiteness. Irish people, for example, were not considered white even though there is pink as I am in arguably pinker, paler, Jews, Ashkenazim, for example, are sort of considered plastic white people for the purposes of racism and were exploited for centuries and are now considered white people by elements of the work left, but that's a reason. So basically white is a social construct. It's not a racial thing. There's no way you can identify white person because also you've never actually met a white buzz. They've all been pink. Oh, the only white people who exist are our binos. But they're the only ones that do. So, you know, basically white means nothing. It can mean, but white means nothing because it can mean anything. Gotcha. Thank you. And then Andrew Rousse, thank you very, that's right. Andrew Rousse, thank you very much for your super chat and your kind words, do appreciate it. And Nala Black says, Vosch, the 2020 riots caused nearly $2 billion damage across the country. That is way more than a quote unquote few buildings being burned down. It's also less than that year's total for police departments in America paying out settlements for court cases that they lost or did not want to have. Just keep that in mind. Yeah, $2 billion of damage is a lot, but wait, hold on really quickly. New, wait, what was the New York City? New York City PD settlement year. How much did New York City's police department on? New York City NYC PD in 2018, $230 million on its own, one city, a quarter billion dollars from one police department. So just keep that in mind. This I did not know. I am, yeah, okay. That's rather disconcerting. Not saying it's not bad or anything. I'm just saying, just keep some perspective on all this, you know? Gotcha, and this one coming in from, do appreciate it. Jezore says, I hope everyone has a blessed day. Praise Satan. Great opportunity to remind you folks, no matter what walk of life you were from, we are glad you were here. I don't know if they're a real Satanist, but either way, we're glad you're here. And Whitsit gets it says, CRT teaches racism. Children don't come out of the womb racist. They love each other based on actions. Leave their innocence alone. It's child abuse. Nope, nobody's teaching critical race theory to children. I just, whatever we're describing as critical race theory today, I promise you they are not getting taught at an elementary school, okay? Just, it's okay. No, it's gonna be okay. Yeah, I think what Vosh and I have established is that what I think of as critical race theory, what is marketed as critical race theory isn't CRT. The problem is that at this point, it doesn't really matter now because we've now got to mop up the mess that's been created by the D'Angelo clan and people like it. Yeah, fair enough, Carol. You got it in me by Jim Bob strikes again says Vosh. What would you say if, sorry, lost, okay? They say, what would you say if I told you stone toss was a black lesbian? I'd be very proud of them and their journey. Who's stone toss? A Nazi. Oh, yeah. God, you're okay. Proud of them and their journey. I clearly don't hang around on the internet as much as I thought I did. I mean, you know, never mind. I can clearly hang out in better groups than I do. Do you know who I'd really, I mean, Vosh, this has been a wonderful conversation and I really hope we get to do this again. But the person I really want to interview is Richard Spencer. I really want to have a chat with that bugger. I don't know how I'd do it because he probably wouldn't talk to me what my massive Israeli flag hanging down there. But, you know, I just really, really want to speak to him because I would love to talk to one of these people face to face. Anyway, Carol, I'm just sorry. This isn't how- No, I've really enjoyed the conversation too. I'm sure there are strings that I could pull if we talk in the future. Yeah. Oh, cool. That'd be great. You got it. Do you have any more questions, James? We do. We have not too many more. I promise I'll get you to sleep soon. Sorry about that, Ken. And we have- I'm high on casting, James. I don't really care at this point. I'm performance enhancing drugs right now. Just, Carol, do what you do. You got it. 303.io says, this is why debates are important, more of this and less toxicity. So glad you enjoyed it. Glad to hear that. And Will Stewart says, Vosch, do you not think it's because these issues are being talked about in elementary, middle and high school classrooms by wine drinking white ladies that you get 16-year-old Zoomers ranting on TikTok? Nah, those 16-year-olds get their info from the internet. They misread and half-read other TikToks and YouTubers. I promise you, they are not getting that stuff. The black separatist TikTok crowd is not getting that theory from their middle school teachers, okay? I promise you, the only stuff that's getting- See, this is what I mean like everything it's called COT. You know what's being taught in elementary schools that you're referring to? The idea that like racism exists, that it's a problem, that racism is in America, that the founding fathers own slaves. Like this is the stuff that kids get taught. They're not getting taught like crazy weird shit about like, you know. There is a racial hierarchy and we must isolate everybody according to race. No, that's not what they need to. Not yet. Yeah, I mean maybe like there are always going to be elements of imperfect education all around the world, but like I just, I do not think kids are being taught racist, being taught to be racist in elementary school by like woke lefty teachers or something. I just, I don't- No, I mean a lot of the stuff, I mean, I know I have a lot of American conservative followers on TikTok and a lot of creators follow me as well and they're getting canceled by this kind of weird sort of like black separatist, black nationalist mob. And they claim it's, they use the phrase critical race theory, but again, are they really using critical race theory at all or are they just, you know, anti-white racist assholes? But so yeah, it's not, you don't need to go to school to get this stuff. You just have to spend time on Tumblr for about like 25 minutes or something and you're good enough. I just wish we were specific with it. They like, do you feel bad that kids are being taught that white people are inherently racist or something? Like give me like a specific thing donors, you know, like so I can respond to that. I don't think they're getting taught that in school either, but, you know, it's easier that way. You got it. This one coming in from Pentagon Anonym. Thank you so much as I agree with both of you. I'm Romanian and I live in the UK. So you could, they put from parentheses so white, I guess, but I do feel like I've been discriminated against sometimes. Yeah, well, I can side with them because Romanians in Britain are dismissed sort of like two steps up from homeless thieves and things like that. They get a lot of abuse from other Eastern European populations in the UK as well, including Poles. But yeah, so the Romanians are discriminated against, yet they're as pink as most British people, you know. So yeah, this is another reason why I don't like what I think of a CRT because it ignores sort of intra-white racism. One of the reasons you got to focus on intersectional racial theory because that is all about understanding the nuances in how people divide each other and, you know, hurt them with those categorizations. About the intersectionality. Gosh, yeah, man. We could run about that all day. Carry on. This one coming in from Samuel Lilleholm. Appreciate it. It says, from a very introductory search, it appears to me that CRT suggests the US has systems which are intertwined with racism, yet I sincerely don't see that. Am I misunderstanding CRT? That's one of the fundamental assumptions of the legal wing of critical race theory. And yeah, it's 100% true. So there's evidence of explicit, implicit, and temporal bias in our criminal justice system. We have studies on implicit bias in jury selections, which means because we have a jury of our peers that bias in the population affects bias in our court rulings, we have explicit implicit and temporal biases evidenced in our police. We have said biases expressed in the ways in which our economic systems reflect in legal outcomes. We have these biases in redlining. We have these biases exist all over the place. And these aren't just biases that exist by happenstance. At best of times, they exist simply because they're the remnant of longstanding racial discrimination, which stopped, but then never got fixed or patched up. And at worst, they're a product of existing explicit or implicit bias that could be brought about or measured and studied. Take a look at the federal investigators report into the police department of Ferguson, if you don't believe me. That report was done back in what, 2015, 2016. And it's incredible how if you really investigate it, you can break a city down into layers and it is just fucked from head to toe. Like sometimes it's people deliberately being racist and sometimes it's just, they didn't care. They just let it keep happening, you know, for decades and decades and generations. That report is incredible. And that's just one city. You got it. And this one coming in from Ryan Hamilton, let's see. Said, Vosh, did you watch Adam and Sitch's nine hour response to your video criticizing your response to PragerU on CRT? I can't watch those guys. I'll have them on sometime if they want, man. I can't go over their videos. My, when I do a video, it makes the original video 10 times as long. If I do a video on theirs and then they do a video on mine, well, we'll never get to do any other videos. We have to stop. There's a kind of response culture that I don't really understand. Cause I mean, I'm 35, Vosh, I'm older than you. I've only started making content in the last like six months. And there's this kind of- Congratulations, you've done very well for yourself. Well, if you say so, I mean, I talk into a phone, Vosh. It's hardly, you know, it's hardly, it's hardly, well, it's hardly, it's not that great. But no, but there's a kind of real sort of like response culture whereby you, someone puts out a video, someone responds to the video and then someone responds to the response to the video. And it's just like, you don't create anything original. You're just mixing around the same swill. And I don't quite understand it from being honest. It's like, don't you want something a bit fresh? Don't you want nothing? I'll never go more than one deep. I'd be happy to talk to them. I mean, I've invited them on before and I think- Juicy and we'll retweet that folks. That sounds fun. Forward tribe says, you've established that poor immigrants and children in parentheses can achieve immense wealth and still you say that 100 years just doesn't make it possible for black people to. How come? Okay, let me tear into this guy really quickly. Okay, first of all, you're fucking moron and you should look for a rebate on any educational material you've received in your past, okay? If you live in America, you need to go and you need to find the dean of the educational institution that you attended and you need to strangle them until you get your money back, okay? Because that is not how statistics work, all right? We're talking about averages against populations here, hundreds of millions of people. Black people, did you know Obama was president? So could you racism really exist? Come on, think, all right? Jesus, no. Obviously on average, there are systemic biases that affect huge populations but there are going to be exceptions within those populations. The majority of immigrants that arrive to our country are wealthy when they arrive because it's expensive to move to another country. But when we're talking about immigrants from Mexico or they usually just come up from the border, like illegal immigrants, the vast majority of them stay poor their whole lives. Some of them, I imagine, become extraordinarily wealthy but that doesn't remove the barriers to the rest of them. You've provided invalid examples, okay? The existence of statistical anomalies does not negate other statistical truths. Just please stop, I hear this argument so much. I'm sorry for being mean, I take it back. James, that was very uncouth of me, I apologize. It happens and I think, is this, Ms. Tree in the chat, is this the Ms. Tree I'm thinking of says, want to see modern systemic racism? Look at all the black entrepreneurs still in prison for selling weed and the white CEOs controlling companies now taking over the industry as it legalizes. True, based in Truefield. Yeah, I was gonna say that it's one of the great ironies, isn't it, that these people, I mean, they arrest people for selling weed and yet the greatest drug dealer in the Western world is the Starbucks Corporation. I've always, you know, it does seem a bit odd that, well, it's just the same thing. I would, to be honest, I'd grant them amnesty because if all they're in, if they're only in for selling marijuana, then it's hardly the destructive drug that say crack cocaine is. So, you know, just let them go opiates. Or opiates, yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's a lot of money in addiction. Just look at the drinks industry. But there we go, get massive kick back. Sorry, my computer's just behaving now. What are you doing? Sorry, don't mind me, I'm just, you're just- Anne, I do want to see, do we have any questions for Kenan? I am like blown away. It's because Vosh is the celebrity. I'm just on random TikToks. I've been on this channel before and there's like a community of people who jump on James's channel to like see about me in his chat. So it's usually people from that end who hate me. It's entirely personal. I just want to get a rise out of it. But we want to let you know, folks, our guests are linked to the description. We, it's difficult for us to express just how much we appreciate these guys. Thank you very much Vosh and Kenan. Seriously, it has been a true pleasure to get to hang out with you guys, to have you on and so thank you guys. James, as always, it is a massive delight to spend any time with you. And Kenan, this actually ended up being like six times the conversation I expected to be. I'd be more than happy to have you on stream in other contexts sometime in the future. I really appreciate you taking the time, man. No, well, thank you very much for allowing yourself to speak to me today. Thank you very much, James, for arranging it. Thank you again, Leo Philius, for suggesting it and Stephen Ryan of YouTube Channel Sider Report for making, for insisting that this happen. Yeah, thank you very much. Yeah, it's a pleasure to speak to you, Vosh. I'm just as surprised as you are, to be fair. But yeah, let's do it again, because on something equally as contentious, I don't know, trans issues or something, yeah. Yeah, we'll find something, I'm sure. Sit far to the internet without our barbed-iron tribe. Yeah. Are we gonna just build Warhammer models and compare them? Yeah, we could just like just, you know, I get out my death card and you get out, I mean, do you just use Age of Sigmar for Warhammer 40k as well? I've got a skitari behind me too, so I do love it. Yeah, you mentioned Adeptus Mechanicus, yeah, you know, no, fair enough, we'll just like sit there painting, painting models, talking shit, you know, that sort of stuff. Why not? Battle painting, yeah. Battle painting, yeah, my models are better than yours. Yeah, why not? Just do something other than that. Yeah, okay, and thank you. Yeah, I'll run away, take care. Thank you, and then last minute question, River killed the doctor, says, Ken and I have a question for you, are you a clone of Vosh? Oh, that's, no, I don't think so, I don't think so. He's older than me, wouldn't I be the clone? Exactly, we don't look that similar, just because you've got big glasses on and we're both pink, that's not, No, this is my entire fucking community, any kind of, it's a guy with a beard and glasses, that's all they need. We don't have the same hair, it's just, apparently I look like a TikToker called Pappa Garps as well, there's a guy called Pappa Garnt on TikTok and I've actually watched some of his videos and I look nothing like him, so he's bald for a start, anyway, nevermind. This is real racism, by the way, saying all white people look like, this is the exact, this is critical race theory. Do you see, I can imagine, I'm gonna see the clip of just you saying that Vosh on Twitter, so we appreciate everybody. You're a white guy with a beard and glasses, James, I don't get it, well, you're yoked, of course, so yeah, I can't, I don't know, you can't tell because he's very modest, but he's actually like six foot five and he looks like a bodybuilder, by the way. That's not true, Vosh is telling stories again, but we, I will be back in a moment with a post-credits scene letting you know about juicy upcoming debates. For example, tomorrow, J.F. will be taking on Alex Stein on whether or not the police are systemically racist and so we'll be back in just a moment with updates on that and so one last time, I wanna say thanks so much to our guests, it's been a true pleasure to have you guys. Always enjoyable and so my dear friends, we are excited to let you know a lot of big new changes coming to this channel. We are reinventing, making things fresh as we, we really do want to fit what you want, folks, for real. We are gonna have a lot of votes coming up, in particular, in about a week or two, we are planning on a 50,000 subscriber celebration. Thank you so much, folks, for joining the vision and you know the vision. If you don't know the vision, I'll tell you, our goal at Modern Day Debate is to provide a level playing field for everybody to make their case in all fairness. We want everybody to get their fair shot to make their case to the world, no matter what walk of life they are from, Christian atheist, politically left, politically right, you name it, folks. We are glad that we, I can tell you, folks, the debaters are the lifeblood of the channel. They make the channel great, and so we cannot say thank you enough to them, and we can also not say thank you enough to you, folks, as it is a fun thing to see this channel is an eclectic mix, a true melting pot of people from all walks of life, gay, straight, black, white, you name it, folks. We are glad that you are here, really. In addition, my dear friends, other stuff coming up. One, during that 50,000 subscriber celebration, which we are really excited about, it is basically, we're gonna call it a thank you celebration. Thank you all, folks. For real, you guys, the debaters, you make this fun. It's a true community. It's a true kind of like, almost like a system rather than like, it's not like, oh, like it's James. No, no, no, it's like a system of all these different people interacting, and that's what makes the channel fun, and that's what makes me love it. It's honestly, it's just a blast. Oh, that reminds me, thanks Andrew Kroll in the chat, reminding me about merch. If you ordered a t-shirt for our last crowdfund, and you haven't already let me know your t-shirt size, please email me at modernatubate at gmail.com. There are, I think, maybe 10 people yet where I have their, I think I have their address even, but I don't have their t-shirt size, and I need, so I need to know that. So just in case you haven't already told me, and then also, if you ordered merch through the last crowdfund, I wanna let you know, it's on its way mostly. So for example, those 10 people that I'm still waiting on, I haven't made the order yet, but most people it's either on the way or it should have already arrived. It should, for pretty much everybody arrived by men. I know it's, we get the holiday weekend, so gosh, if it's not to your house by Tuesday, let me know, and I'll check on when it was shipped out from Teespring. Basically, Teespring, I put the order in like two weeks ago, and then Teespring, I still get emails where they're like, we just shipped the order, and I was like, what? Like, it took two weeks to make a sweatshirt? What's going on over there? But, you guys, I am pumped, and so thanks Bob Sadler who said, James, I don't want a t-shirt. Thanks for letting me know about that, Bob. I'm gonna try to take note of that right now, and then let me just put that in my little, what is it called? I've got my Google Keep. Do you guys use Google Keep? It's like my, I put everything in there. I use it probably like, poof. I don't know how many times a day. Taking notes on like things I gotta do, but Bob Sadler, thanks for letting me know that and write that down right now. Upcoming debates, my dear friends, let me tell you about this. Tomorrow, it's going to be controversial. It's going to be juicy. It's probably going to be lively. Alec Stein, High Energy, and JAF are going to debate whether or not systemic racism exists among the police in particular. You'll probably be offended during the debate. We're not trying to offend people, but it just often happens. So at least you've been warned it's going to be controversial. You don't wanna miss it, folks. Do, as I mentioned, hit that subscribe button if you haven't already. This channel's like a buffet, and there's nothing better than a great, for example, Chinese buffet, or maybe golden corral. I mean, the point is this, folks, you pick what you like and some debates, maybe you're like, what the? What the? You're like, I don't know, why are they debated? That is so weird. Well, you don't have to watch every debate, but we will tell you this, folks. We do have a lot of juicy upcoming debates. We do plan on, there are a couple of ideas I have for panels upcoming, but wanna let you know on the things that we, as I mentioned, that 50,000 thank you stream, which is basically to thank you that we are, once we hit 50,000 subscribers, we're excited to do that stream. It's gonna be fun. And we're going to have a vote during that stream, several votes. Things such as, one, we're gonna have a new logo for moderated debate because I am tired of getting made fun of so much because I made our current logo, and everybody says it looks like word art from Microsoft Word. And it was, no, it wasn't really, but basically, here's the trick. We will get a better logo because I'll admit it, I'm like, okay, I made that thing, so it's obviously not very good, but nonetheless, it's been good for a year or so. But we are going to, this next one, we're like, let's let the people decide. Let's let people, I don't have an artistic bone in my body. I mean, people are like, you have to, all the places I've lived, it looks so austere or spartan. In other words, not decorated at all. It just looks like, it's like kind of like a plain white room, and you know, maybe I'll sleep in a bed, but who knows? And maybe you gotta just sleep on wherever you want. The idea is this, am I like an artsy guy? No, I'll admit it. So we're gonna have you guys give your feedback. We've got, and I've actually gone to Fiverr to say, like, hey, can you make some logos for our people to choose from? And so, it's nothing like too fancy, but we were like, all right, let's, you know, we'll do it. And so, thanks for your feedback on the logo. You guys are always supportive, I appreciate that. That means a lot. And at the same time, it's also great to, you know, change things up, make things fresh. And let's see, Mr. P says, new logo, great, but James will be getting a new 50,000 subscriber curtain. Oh, that's a great idea. I mean, I like this one though. You guys know this is a curtain, see? I like this one a couple of reasons. One, this is like the dumbest thing you've probably ever heard because you're like, James, really? Come on, it's gray, it's hard to tell. It looks probably closer to white. It's symbolic of our neutral nature as modern day debate in that it's gray. The other thing, that's kind of corny, but the other thing is this. Wow, you never maybe knew this. Cam reached out to me, Cameron Bertuzzi, and he had said, hey, the reason that you look like you, everybody when they look at you, it's like they have like, if I remember right, well, he didn't say this, nevermind. Well, what he did say is he said, he's like, the reason you look like you, you're glowing with light bulbs inside of you is because your curtain in the back is too dark, maybe you get something like more middle, like gray. And I said, okay, let me try it. And it helped a lot. And also we use the ring light now, which definitely helps, really excited about that. So David Street, thanks so much for your support in helping us get that ring light. And so let me tell you about other stuff though. You guys, I'm excited, I'm pumped up, I'm really happy and pumped to let you know about all sorts of epic stuff we're gonna have you vote on. So I didn't know this, well, a couple things. One, you probably heard about, if you were at least if you follow us on Twitter, we put out a crowd fund to try to raise funds for David Crowder versus Sam Cedar. We reached out to David Crowder, we said to his contact, technically. We said, hey, we have completed two successful crowd funds. We didn't hear back. And this is after we, not only did we tell him we completed two successful crowd funds, that we said, we are willing to raise funds for David Crowder's honorarium to get this debate where he will face Sam Cedar. We never heard back from his contacts after several times trying to reach out. Long story short, everybody's money has already been refunded for that crowd fund. So if you have put in, I don't even, I think that it's just automatically, you don't have a choice, it's been refunded. So like, if you were really like, oh man, I just, I didn't want it back. I don't know why you wouldn't. I mean, go treat yourself. Like that episode of Parks and Rec. Go ahead and treat yourself. Do something nice for yourself. But give it to, you know, a good cause, whatever it is you want. But that, I'm checking in on it right now. I'm pretty sure that all of the funds should show, let's see, view the campaign. It should show that there are zero contributions. Gosh, okay, well, it actually says they're like 1,390. However, the campaign has ended. So even though it shows like what people have put in, I was told by one person, they said, oh, I got my refund. And I'm like, that's good. We want you to get the refund. So everybody's been refunded. It's important for us that we're like, we're not gonna like, and that's what I told you. I said, if it doesn't happen, you get your money back. And so everybody's got their money back 100% in full. And so that debate's not happening. Did I say David Crowder? What I meant to say is Stephen Crowder. That's funny. So sorry, I just saw somebody right now. I was like, what? Stephen Crowder? I just realized that I said that. So that's funny. I think I said that to my buddy when I first mentioned it to him. I was like, we're gonna try to crowd one for David Crowder. He's like the musician? Like, I was like, Stephen Crowder, I meant. Okay, so next one, Michael Bolton. I wanna let you know this. We are excited. We've got a lot of stuff coming up, nonetheless. And one thing that is really cool, in the last several crowd funds, I didn't know that the crowd funds aren't taxed unless it goes over $20,000. If it does go over $20,000, we were nowhere near. If it does go over, then you get taxed. I thought we were taxed no matter what. Oh, and then Brooke Chavis, thanks for your feedback. Says, I got all of the merch except the sweatshirt. Good to know. So glad you got the postcard. And I'm so sorry, folks. If anybody's waiting on a postcard, oh, I'm so behind you guys. I'm so sorry it's been a rough. That's why I didn't moderate this whole week is that I've been catching up with stuff after the move. So I mentioned I moved a few weeks ago, but anyway, the point is we didn't, I learned that we don't actually get taxed, but we built taxes into the crowd fund. So we have extra funds and we want to use them on modern day debate. That's important is we're like, hey, these things originally, people were told that this would be to cover taxes. And it was just an honest mistake on my part. I'm embarrassed that I'm a rookie at crowdfunding. Although, not trying to brag, two successful crowd funds, thanks to you guys. We as a team, as a community, modern day debate has done well with crowdfunding. Here's what I mean. 35% of crowd funds fail. Boom, they don't make their goal. We're two for two. We've made our goal every time that we actually went to the deadline. Now it's true like the Crowder debate didn't happen, but that was because we couldn't get ahold of Stephen Crowder, so it doesn't count. So the idea here is this. We have extra funds we wanna use for speakers, new speakers, or maybe speakers we haven't had on for a long time. We're willing and we want you guys for real as subscribers, supporters, followers, everybody. By the way, folks, we do have a Twitch. And if you're watching via Twitch, hit that follow button. We're excited that the Twitch has been growing. That's super encouraging. I'm pumped about that. But also wanna let you know this. We are planning on giving you guys basically a list of people to kind of vote on in terms of who we kind of reach out to to try to get on the show. Because as mentioned, we want your hand on the steering wheel of modern day debate. We want you to like have influence on like what is going on at the channel. So we are excited about that. And then Saichonab says, what's up James? And welcome back. Thank you for your support. And then said David McGinnis is good to go for the wrench. You got it. Thanks for letting me know about that. David McGinnis, let me know if you're in here. I will mod you up. Bubble Gum Gun, thanks for your super chat. If you're not willing to debate, then your position sucks. You mean me? Like anyway, let me go back to the old Twitch chat. So sorry, dear friends of the Twitch chat. Oh, my neglected friends. I'm so glad to see you. Current poll, what is the real name? Let's see. Oh, okay, gotcha. David Crowder, David Chowder, Steaming Chowder, yeah, so that's funny. But in the old Twitch chat, good to see you, dear friends. Oh, I always minimize the chat. Where is this thing? I've gotta find, oh, I refreshed the page. That should do it. We'll do a raid at the end. We'll see who's streaming right now and we can stop by your friends in just a few minutes. I wanna, let's see. I wanna say thank you so much. I'm just so glad to be back with you guys. I haven't gotten to see you guys and chat with you guys for like a week. And I'm like, man, honestly, this week was insane. I have never been pushed so hard to where like time pressure of like, oh my gosh, I have so much to do. I thought about taking an all nighter and I'm still thinking about it a little bit, but I'm not supposed to do that. And I tried to like quit. I used to do it almost regularly, like once every week or two, because it's almost like you get a whole extra work day and I kinda like that. But at the same time, I'm like, nah, I was like, I shouldn't be doing that. It's not good, can't do that. I don't wanna do that anymore. Let me load up this Twitch chat because I'm baffled. I made it disappear, very embarrassing. Let's see. Oh, it's that boomer tech. But exciting 905 Twitch followers. Thank you so much for following us on Twitch. We're excited to have you. And like I said, that's no matter what walk of life you were from, no matter what your political views are, we are pumped to have you. So thanks so much for following us and we're excited that Twitch is growing. That's encouraging. And you know what's also growing? You guys, do you know that we have a podcast? And I'm so encouraged. It's been growing that people are finding useful. So thank you so much for your support of the podcast and just checking it out. I would encourage you folks, pull out your phone right now. If you haven't yet, find. I'll show you what it looks like to pull out your phone and find the podcast. Okay, so find good old modern day debate on podcast. I am excited about it. Opening up your favorite podcast app, such as podcast addict, I have just opened. And then once it is open, or it just stays gray for a long time, what you wanna do is find modern day debate. As we are excited, all of our debates, we strive to get them up within 24 hours of when they were live. And so that's something that I've been, I think a lot of people have really, I've definitely seen the number of downloads increase since we started making that change. And so that's really encouraging. I'm really pumped about that. And then where is, oh gosh you guys, I'm sorry about this boomer stuff. I don't know how to, I made the live chat go away on accident and I don't know how to get it to come back. Let me just work on this. We're gonna get there. Oh gosh, just disgraceful. I knew there was a live chat here. I know that I was just looking at it. And sometimes it just disappears on me. Very embarrassing. Oh, I think I got, okay, there it goes. RitchieTab99, thanks for coming by. We're glad you were here. I see you there in the old Twitch chat as well as Brooks Sparrow. Says, hit that like and follow. Thanks so much, Brooke, for your support. Lily Ajo, good to see you again. Thanks for your support as well. I'm with Seferin, good to see you. And who else is in here? I'm like lurking, skulking about the Twitch chat. I see Seferin and Tapazel, good to see you. Thanks for your help. Oh, that's right. Yeah, you guys, we've got some cool stuff. I've got it, we're gonna have a big announcement during the 50,000 thank you stream. As again, folks, we're excited to hit 50,000 subscribers. But ultimately, I want it to be about you. Like, it's thank you for making this an epic channel. You guys, I'm just so encouraged and excited about the kind of the growth and just the impact that modern day debate has had as my dear friends, we are optimistic about the future. We sincerely believe people want to see fair debates and people also want a platform where it's a genuinely neutral platform. I am not going to come out with a video tomorrow. And I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with this. I'm just, it's different. It's just different. There's no better or worse, but I'm saying it is different. Tomorrow, I'm not gonna come out with a video that's like the truth about critical race theory and why so and so in that last debate between Bosch and Kenden. Well, I'm gonna let you know who was wrong and who was right. Like, nope, we don't do that here. It is fully neutral. So there are no like solo videos where I just basically say my own opinions or something like that or argue using stats or whatever else it is. Like this is a genuinely neutral channel. And so I'm convinced people are excited about that and that resonates with people and it's rare. I mean, you guys, I don't see a lot of channels that do that where the other thing too is there are some channels that say they do it and more power to them. Like I have no kind of like angst or any sort of like, what's the word I'm looking for? Like resentment or anything like that toward those channels. Like good for them. Although I would say that I sometimes do see channels where the moderator will like jump in and clearly take a side and try to like pin someone down where it's like, eh, I'm gonna leave that to the debaters. If a debater is good, they will pin down the other person. And sometimes I get this in chat which there's nothing that makes me, don't get me wrong. I'm not irritated. I'm always like, I'm in a good mood. I enjoy it like the stream. I told the guys before we went live tonight. I said, you guys, my day is pretty boring. So when I get to do this, I'm in a great mood because I just enjoy it because otherwise I'm reading and writing all day. The trick is sometimes in the chat, I'm not irritated, but I am when I see it, I'm like, you guys just don't get our vision. You don't get it. And hopefully they will someday. The idea is sometimes it'll be like, James, you should jump in and tell someone that they've got to answer this question. And I'm like, bro, if you're, or maybe it's a lady who's complaining. I don't know. I'll say whoever you are, complainer, your debater has to hold their feet to the fire. And your debater, if they're a good debater, and I've seen it, believe me, there are good debaters on virtually every side has better or worse debaters. Like people who get the skill of, if you're in conversation and you ask somebody a question and they dodge it, you bring them back to it. If you're a good debater, you will say, I noticed you answered somebody's question with what you just said, but it wasn't my question. So I'm gonna drag you back to this and ask you again, what is your answer about X, Y, Z? That's a good, I mean, amazingly, some people, they're just long story short. They're like, James, you should jump in and like force them to answer. I'm like, that's what the debater is supposed to be doing. So big thing Bruce Wayne, good to see you says, debate idea is prayer effective. That's juicy. That is a new topic. We have never done that. And I'm open to that. Mark, thanks for sharing that. And Mark Reed says, I'm feeling way better now. I'm happy to debate. Let me know if you have my email. Thanks Mark Reed. I'm so glad to hear that you're feeling better. I hope you're doing well. I hope everything is going okay in good old Australia. And bubblegum gun. Hannah Anderson and Mr. P, thanks for your support and being here as well as Patrick Tomlinson. We're glad you're here. And Captain V, glad you came by as well as amazing bubblegum gun and enhaxed says you shouldn't, it's bad for you. That's true. It is. It's like a literal carcinogenic type of behavior. So if you're kind of like, hey, I'm not trying to scare anybody. I'm just trying to let you know like the World Health Organization would say it is carcinogenic. Namely, if you are the type of person to be consistent, if you say, hey, I don't do the like suntan tanning booths because you could get cancer from those. And that's everybody's pretty much agreed. Or maybe it's cigarettes. You're like, I don't smoke cigarettes because there's a risk of cancer. Maybe you won't get cancer, but maybe you will. The probability is at least significantly higher. Sleep deprivation is also carcinogenic. So in other words, if you're proud of and try to deprive yourself of sleep as much as possible, I would recommend like, ah, you might want to get your eight hours. And maybe it's late because maybe you're like, well, I work late or maybe, you know, so maybe you got to go to sleep at three in the morning, four in the morning. Better than not getting, like you're still getting your eight hours, get your eight hours. And maybe you're like, well, I've got to sleep during the day because I worked the graveyard shift. I worked from 11 until seven. Still, sleep eight hours, starting at eight a.m. till four p.m. It really is. I regrettably, I almost feel like a hypocrite, but not because I've changed my ways. And now I can tell you that I used to be pretty bad about sleep and almost proudly so where I would, you know, like talk about like, you know, just taking an all nighter once a week to get extra work done. And I would encourage you though, and I think I'm more productive now anyway without having to do an all nighter, is I would recommend like, eh, I don't think it's worth it. I think you can find other ways. But anyway, hey, it's your life. Who am I to say I'm not gonna try to push you. Just something to at least a perspective to consider. Mark Reed, good to see you. Captain IV and Toto Kaka. Thanks for being here. As well as CD. And then CD says, James, I vote that you plug yourself in the middle of the debate when you have higher viewership. I don't know what you mean by plug myself. Is this some sort of sexual innuendo? Nasty guy. But Andrew Cole, good to see you. And let's see, JC93013 says, beta mail in Jesse Lee Peterson's voice, LOL. Yes, there's a beta. That's funny. We hope to have Jesse back on soon. That would be really fun. And then Bruce Wayne says, where'd you go Bruce Wayne? Chats moving fast on me. You guys, I'm a boomer. Come on, take it easy on me. Bruce Wayne says, hey James, Sight Show Nav said to message you so I can get my mods. You got it bro. I'm adding that wrench right now. And then Sight Show Nav says, okay gotcha, thanks for letting me know that. And then Samuel Littleholm, good to see you. And then, thank you for your kind words CD. And Patrick Tomlinson, let's see. Redtron, thanks for being here. Said no links in the chat. You're right, I got it up there because the stream crashed at the start. So I've got to update that. That's embarrassing. So you guys are the other link embarrassingly. Crashed or embarrassing. But we made it. So thanks to Vosh and Kenden again for their patience. Lily Aja on the old YouTube chat, good to see you. Thanks for coming by. And then Woody, good to see you. And then Bob Sadler says, only fans. Nasty guy. Totokaka says thanks for this debate start. Thank you my friend, appreciate that. Our pleasure, it was a lot of fun. Huh? Samuel Littleholm says, James don't feel too weird by trying out the thumbnail idea I had in mind. I don't feel weird, don't worry. It's a free country. Young Gotti, thanks for coming by. Is it Young Gotti? Is that how it's pronounced? G-O-T-T-I. But folks, if you were watching in Twitch, do want to let you know, you're excited that we do have a YouTube live stream as well and it's at the same time. Prefer watching on YouTube, live there too, right now in all caps. I just put that in the old Twitch chat. And so folks, if you're watching via Twitch, I just put it in the chat. You can click on this YouTube link and you can see like, oh, this is like their main hub. We love Twitch and we're excited that people find Twitch valuable. They find it useful. They're like, I like to watch on Twitch instead. Cool, we'll stream there too. Also want to let you know, yeah, we are excited though as our main hub is YouTube and we're excited that it's been a blast on YouTube. So, Gabriel, real, thanks for coming by. I said, nice debate. I'm so glad you enjoyed it, Gabriel. Thanks for letting us know that. My dear friends, we are excited about the future. There is a lot coming up and it's going to be epic. It's going to be juicy. It's going to be amazing. And so my dear friends, we do appreciate you. Read more says, did this debate already happen? It did read. We're glad you're here read. And if you pull that little time ticker on the live stream all the way back to the start, you'll get to the very start of this debate. It was amazing. And so thanks everybody for all of your support though. I love you guys. Seriously, thanks everybody for all of your support. You guys, I'm excited about the future because of you. Like you guys have made this channel fun. You guys have made it a blast. And we're learning, we're looking at new ways. Like how can we do this as good as well as possible so that people enjoy it maximally? And so we're excited to keep making changes, making things new and fresh. And let's see. Yet another white dude says, I tweeted at you, but you should do a debate where the participants define their terms beforehand and then can contend with others definitions. I don't exactly know what you mean when you say others definitions, like other people other than the two, or do you mean somebody else? Between themselves. But yeah, let me know. And Brooke Chavis, thanks for your support says, hit that like button before you head out and don't forget to subscribe. Thanks Brooke for your support, seriously. And it's true, folks. Lots of epic debates coming up. We're working on a panel, big political debate panel later this month. So that's gonna be fun. We're excited about that. I forgot to tell Vosh, it's not gonna be on the ninth. It's probably gonna be later. Cause I was emailing about it. I was gonna tell him before. I gotta go, it's getting late guys. It's 8.53 here. I'm an old, I'm a boomer. We don't say old man anymore. We just say boomer. And maybe we should start saying boomer the way that Jesse says beta. So like boomer, but let's farm. Thanks for reminding me says, the debates continue 24 seven in the modern day debate discord they do. And thank you, let's farm so much for all you do in the discord. Basically everything, if I understand right. I know I gotta give you full credit. I haven't done anything in the discord. And so thank you to Larry, let's AKA let's farm. Sorry for doxing your real name there, but thank you to Larry for doing that seriously. And that's pinned at the top of the chat if you wanna check out our dank discord. And then yet another white dude says no, they get to see what each other said as the definition to each term and can argue their cases for their own. Yeah, I'm open to that. I mean, I'm open to that. So I appreciate you letting me know that. And then Saffron thanks so much says I came from Twitch just to hit the like button here on YouTube. Thank you so much for doing that. Seriously, we do appreciate that support. And yeah, that motivates me knowing that people are excited and like people are like, yeah, I'm like when they hit like and all that. And I'm excited though. You guys, I can't, I'm just, I appreciate it. I should go because I've got, I'm kind of getting pooped and I gotta get some good rest. But thank you guys everybody for all of your support. Love you guys. We'll see you next time. Keeps everything out. The reasonable from the unreasonable. Take care everybody.