 But just as we start every episode, we'd like to remind you and give you, you know, insight that these are our supporters. So these are our presenting sponsors. They have been with us many for the entire journey. So since last March, and we are so grateful to have them as partners. And they are really here, not only to support the episodes of the nonprofit show, but each and every one of you, each and every one of your missions and your causes. So thank you to our presenting sponsors and please go check them out and say thanks. Thanks for, you know, everything that they're doing. And I'd like to say thanks to Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. We had our she, I should say, had this crazy idea about a year ago and she thought it would be two weeks and here we are a year later and we're still in pivot mode. So you might notice that today's screen looks a little different as well as her background looks a little different. And that is a okay, because just as our times change, so do our willingness to provide solutions. So I'm happy I'm happy to be here as host. I'm Jared Ransom, also known as the nonprofit nerd CEO of the Raven group. And I teased a lot of, you know, our previous guests that have come on as well as who's coming on next. So I don't want you to miss those. But today, I really want you to sit down, turn off your distractions, because we have with us, Sandra Madison CFRE and those little letters, those four little letters actually have a really big impact. Sandra joins us from Georgia, if I can share. And again, it's endearing because it's actually my birth state. And Sandra is with SL Madison asset brand strategy. Welcome Sandra. Jared, thank you so much, and Julia as well. Thank you so much for asking me to be part of the nonprofit show. I'm very excited to be here. You know, we're excited to have you as well, because we we always love talking with our CFREs, figuring out what you've got going on, what brought you to this. Can you share really briefly before we get into the heavy lifting your journey into the nonprofit sector? Sure, sure. So my journey started almost, I guess I should be proud and embrace it about 34 years ago with Boys and Girls Clubs. And I had never really known what a nonprofit was. And was looking for a job and started working with kids that were coming out of the juvenile justice system and fell in love with it. And especially didn't know what fundraising was. So back in the day, there really weren't specific fundraisers, if you were an executive director or an operations director, you kind of did it all. So over the course of my career have really been blessed to work in Boys and Girls Clubs for a long period of time, but also as a consultant in management and fundraising. And in July of last year, launched my own company, SL Madison. And yeah, and then the rest is history what brought me here. I love that. And for those that may not know, CFRE is a certified fundraising executive designation. And it really so for Sandra, thank you for sharing a little bit of your personal and professional background history. So you went from really no experience of nonprofits as well as no experience in fundraising to really be a lead of the elite by earning that CFRE designation. So kudos to you, my friend. Yeah. And today's topic is really project feasibility. And that is something that I love talking about because in the fundraising world, I think this is something that sometimes gets overlooked and not addressed in the amount of time that I think we should have with it. So today's episode, we're going to dive deep with you, Sandra, for you to shed your wisdom and experience when it comes to project feasibilities. So let's start with what the heck is it? Sure. And if I could just take a step back and I guess why am I talking about feasibility studies and early on in my consulting career started doing campaigns and prior to campaigns and projects, you do a feasibility study did found out about them when I worked in a nonprofit before I started consulting and have done at least 30 plus feasibility studies over the course of my career. So I've seen seen quite a range of success and not so successful studies and campaigns and learned what makes a good one. So the question, what is a feasibility study? And quite simply, the feasibility study is if you're doing a comprehensive campaign, a capital campaign, or a project or a market study, it really is the questions that come before any type of large project where you are making an investment of revenue of time of resources to ask key stakeholders and we'll talk more about key stakeholders. But to ask key key stakeholders important questions that can guide develop and help you be successful in the project or in the campaign that you are running. Wonderful. Amazing. So it's such a big concept before you really go deep into what your ultimate goals are. And I would imagine it helps you figure out what your goals should be, right? I mean, I'm really interested to know, like, how you were actually doing this, especially given now that we have to do so much of this work digitally. Sure. So a feasibility study itself is, let's define what that is. It's a questionnaire of a series of anywhere between, oh, I think you don't want to make them so painful that people don't want to take them. So an average of 30 questions or so. And some of those questions are also asked in different ways throughout the study so that you're getting a good qualified answer. The point of the feasibility study is you want to have solid data that will advise the board, the organization on the feasibility of the project, hence the name of the feasibility study. So prior to for me, and let me back up a second, a feasibility study, as I said, also involves stakeholders. So the organization is identifying those key people that they want to answer these questions. And the information that they get will help them determine the scope of the project, the amount of dollars that could be raised, if the project is even viable at all. So when we talk about what is a feasibility study or when it starts, to me it really links back to the organizational strategic plan. One of the first questions I ask when I work with an organization before feasibility studies, do you have a strategic plan? And how recent is it? Because what you want to test for really needs to be mission-related and mission-centric and critical to the future development of the organization. So therefore, starting with a strategic plan, and the project or the campaign that's being tested with the funds should be used to support the expansion and development of what's in that strategic plan. What that also does is when you focus on the strategic plan is you know that the vision may not be fully fleshed out. So there may be some visioning work with the board, but the big connection is for nonprofits to understand that there is a connection between an existing strategic plan, a visioning of what the project could be, and that the board has buy-in. Some of those feasibility studies that I've not seen as successful is when the board does not have buy-in or that there's conflict on the board. Now as the board, you had mentioned key stakeholders, and I warned you, we're curious people, so this is just a very curious question. Is it the board as the key stakeholder that we really need to engage and build buy-in, or is it other key stakeholders as well? It's a combination, and there should absolutely be board members as part of the feasibility study oftentimes that the board will be questioned or the board will kind of be that the test for the questions in the feasibility study prior to launch a lot of times depending upon the type of organization that I'm working with. I think about it in terms of the board being questioned in addition to other stakeholders, and let's define other stakeholders. So we're talking about both individuals who are currently funding your organization and those individuals who you wish would fund your organization, or maybe those individuals or representatives that would never fund your organization. And what we want to do is have a good mix of that because of the questions that we're asking. Think about it for a second. If we're going to invest the time and the money in a feasibility study, and the only people that we're talking to are people who love your organization and support you anyway, then you're really not getting a good idea of what you may be missing as you have that internal voice, but what about that external capacity? What about that external vision about the project? So you want that feedback from those individuals. So they are foundation representatives, they're individual larger donors, they could be donors from other organizations that are willing to have you talk speak with them. And we're testing for several different things. You know, we're testing for the amount of money that can be raised. Who are the key people that we could raise that money from? Are there others that need to be involved in a feasibility study that we don't even know about that would make this successful? And also, we're testing a case. So we're testing what do we want to fund? What do we want to do? What that project is? And how successful will it be? I am sitting here having flashbacks from when I was going through higher education. I received my masters in business administration. And never until today, Sandra and Julia, and all of you that are watching this live or recording, never until today have I sat here and thought, is this the research and development stage? Right? Like, is that really, if we are comparing apples to apples to the nonprofit sector and the for-profit sector, I kid you not, not until I'm sitting here today, April the 7th, 942 Mountain Time, that I'm like, I think that's the correlation, right? The project feasibility study in our sector and in our nonprofit business models is equivalent or somewhat equivalent to the research and development stage for for-profit entities really looking at is this a viable product? Do we have buyers and how successful will this widget be? Am I, I mean, am I crazy thinking this alignment? You are not at all because that's think about the investment that if, so let alone thinking about or during the feasibility study determining if the amount to be raised is can we reach that? So if there is, let's pick an example of a feasibility study. If we want to raise $10 million for, I'll use the word capital campaign. So in, in we're going to build and add on to a recreation center, for example, and also do some internal renovations and we want to start an endowment for that or for that organization as well. Is, you know, there's a couple things that are that are key there. One is $10 million in the right number and I don't mean 10 million in the amount of money that can be raised. The first question an organization has to ask is what is needed to run this project? Right. And, and be very realistic about that. The feasibility studies that I've seen that have not gone well is when that is not, that answer is not questioned and also owned by the board. So we're understanding ballpark for capital needs because I mean we all know that there may be a sixth or a six month or a year gap between feasibility study and going into campaign. So we want to have a reasonable account of what a capital expense would be. We also want to know well those capital expenses impact the operating funds or the operating budget for that organization. And, or if it's product, I'm sorry, program expansion or anything else that we're trying to raise money for. Yes, that may be additional dollars that are needed to launch that program. But what is it doing to the day-to-day operating and how much additional dollars, additional staff, additional infrastructure, consumer products, all of that. And then we're also looking at the possibility of if there is an endowment, what is that endowment going to fund? So yes, that's great. Every, I never met an organization that didn't want an endowment, but what is going to be done with those dollars? Right. It's as we're using, if we're using the interest that's coming off the principle of that endowment, what will it be used for? And it's, those are some key questions that the organization has to wrap its arms around before it goes out to test the case. When we're looking at this, and there's obviously so much work that goes into this, I've got two questions kind of surrounding the implementation of this. And one is, how long is it going to take to actually create these, this query of 30 or so questions? And then how do you get a strong enough sample set in terms of how many respondents are you going to try and secure? And what is that failure rate or, I shouldn't say failure rate, but non-participation rate going to be? What does that look like statistically? It's, those are great questions. So, and I've already forgot your first one, Julie, I'm sorry. The first one was, so how many people are you, should you be sending out, sending this out to, to get your sample set? So, when we look at the set of questions, it really, that is, you know, there's the science and the art of so many things and the science of a feasibility study is the question, for me is the questions. So, we know we want to have questions about the brand or the, or how the organization is viewed within, within the community. So, we have those questions. We have the connection. So, we also want to know, Julie, if I'm asking you the questions, I want to know your connection to the organization. What is your, so that there's a filter of, you know, if you are not very connected or don't know anything about the organization, but have some really strong opinions, that, that kind of goes against each other as we're looking at the results. So, we take all that into impact, into, into consideration. And then testing the case and the strength of the case and understanding the case and are we missing anything? And then the feasibility of funding. And if that individual would be willing to join the effort in some way shape or form. So, when we're talking about stakeholders, they're first and the most successful feasibility studies that I've seen are those that are, are really representative of that mix that I, I talked about. So, who's, who are your current funders? Who are your potential funders? Who are you, who, who do you need to get by and who may never fund you, but you need them as those community people who are so important to the success of a project. And then you're also looking for individuals who have influence and can give their time and their treasure and their talent to this effort. So, let me interrupt for just a second. Given that, what is the hard number that we're looking at? I mean, are we saying, oh, you, you know, you only need 20 people or do you need 120 people? Because it seems to me, you know, I loved what you said. You want to have a qualified group that understands you, but at the same time, just statistically, you want a large enough sample set, right? Or, or not? No, you absolutely do. And, and so when you think about who you're getting to, who the organization is identifying. So you, so we start with, as we're prepping for this feasibility study, we are, we are also going through and looking at every potential person that the end of it, that you take that back for a second, we're looking at the segments of the community, the segments of donors that that, that organization works with. And then from there, who would be, who, who can we get involved? Again, going back to that, we don't want everybody in the study that likes, just likes the organization. And that would be the first step, I, Julia, I think to, to address your, to address your question is that on average, you want about 40 interviews. And I, that can change based upon the a couple of things based upon the amount of money that you're testing for, based upon how frequent the organization has run campaigns or done feasibility studies, where some of the money is coming from. So it may be a $10 million project. But if we know that we are already are going into this project with $8 million raised either through city or county or town or federal funding or governmental funding, then that changes things a little bit. But while I will, I will put a bookmark there and say, even in that case where there may be a smaller amount of dollars that need to be raised for a large project, it's still great to get in front of people with a feasibility study, which is kind of like a, it's a no harm no foul. You're asking not for their money, you're asking for their opinion. So it's a great way to form relationships for a nonprofit. But if we're looking at 40, depending upon who we're identifying for some organizations, they can identify 40 people and get those 40 interviews for others, they may need to actually double the size. And usually the rule of thumb is if we're looking for 40, then we're identifying somewhere between 60 and 80 people. Million dollar question, right? I'm listening to today's conversation. I'm putting myself back as a viewer and I'm thinking, as a nonprofit employee, right? I'm thinking, I've never done a feasibility study. Who does this? Am I supposed to be doing this, right? Like, do I bring someone in to help me do this? Who does this feasibility study? Sure. Great question. And usually you bring in a consultant. And this is where, and I have worked with boards who don't see the, and I say boards without hopefully offending anyone, but oftentimes that boards don't get the buy-in of what a feasibility study does. I love Jared, your comment about the R&D piece, because that's exactly what it is. And it is, if you think about the time and the investment that the staff and the organization is making in this new venture, whatever the new venture is. And yes, you may think, all of us think, we know our organizations inside and out, but that is really the case when you think about coming out of how much in the last year and a half, we have all changed and the economy has changed and our roles have changed in the way we function and we act as consumers has changed. So that's, yes, it might in the last year and a half can have been concentrated, but that happens all the time. And it's a great opportunity to get a real feel for what could impact. That is also the other piece of feasibility study is you want to learn what is going to impact your organization if you take this on. So, most organizations, there are some organizations that I know of where the board may complete a feasibility study or use staff to complete a feasibility study. I as a consultant and also as a non-profit professional have always brought in a consultant to do it as a third party because of that conversation can solicit key pieces of information that that person in being interviewed may not necessarily share with someone from the organization. And there's also an objectivity that a third party can come in and bring where I'm here, if I'm the consultant that you're hiring, I'm here to present you with the truth, the good, bad and ugly of that. I love that. You know, Sandra, I'm so interested in talking with you and there's so much I have, so many questions I have and it's hard to believe, but we're like getting to the end of our time with you. I want to really quickly kind of get your opinion and some ideas on what this, what the costs associated with this could be. And then I want to throw in another question and I want to find out if there's something that could be funded by, you know, an outside source or can you find grant funding for this type of expenditure because this is such a heavy lift for so many organizations and yet I think whether you're doing a capital campaign or not, a lot of this data is going to help you in so many other ways. Yes, yes. And especially about brand and about image of the organization and also it should hopefully unlock the door about who else in the community that you may not be working with that you could form bonds and you could form relationships with and also funding relationships with. So cost associated is the cost of paying for that consultant for that study. That can range. I don't want to give a price, but it is fairly, it's probably low five figures that from what I've seen the market hold right now. And from that it is also the cost and what becomes part the time commitment of the organization is of course that pre-work that we talked about. It's helping someone to schedule, usually to schedule the interviews because that the organization knows those people the best and will actually have them get a foot in the door. And then from there it is the responsibility of the consultant to conduct the interviews, collect the information. So that is really what you're paying the cost for, assemble the data and assemble the result and give the recommendation of what either to move forward with the campaign or what needs to be adjusted before the campaign happens or to say you know what done deal you guys are it's going to be great and you're going to raise your thinking you're going to raise 10 million, but you're going to raise 20 million, which has actually happened where during a feasibility study you find out your numbers too low that the community can really support more. Now have you had an opportunity I know you said you personally Sondra have done about 30 and I'm sure you're also aware of many other consultants that have done that number as well or similar too. Is there a time where a consultant or the results of the study come back and say, do not get forward. I know we're running short on our time here, but I have to ask this question because it sounds like everything we've talked about is absolutely we're going to do this it's going to be successful in fact or so than what you might have thought originally, but let's talk about that other option right I guess it's 50 50. It is so much of the the important the success of a feasibility study to lead to campaign is in the pre-work and when we talked about that pre-work that becomes so important. So when there is that time period and usually the feasibility itself could take somewhere depending upon how many interviews are within a certain a certain amount of time because usually what a consultant will do is come in be with you for a number of days work on you know 10 8 to 10 interviews a day and then move on either now virtually or in person. But when it comes back when organization is not ready to move forward there's usually a clear reason why they're not ready to move forward and that is because the the money's not necessarily in the community right now and that could change or that the case is not developed enough and people have questions about it that need to be addressed before they can buy into it. Sometimes it's because the leadership of the of the campaign is not identified through through the study so more work needs to be done there or that there might be there might be a bad something around branding or there might be a bad feel in the in the community about the organization that also needs to be addressed before they move forward. Or someone else may be doing something similar so so there's multiple reasons and then you're you're putting a plan in place to address those reasons so that you can go out and be successful in a campaign. You know Saundra this you've like you just have launched my brain into so many different directions about this because I can see the value of getting this incredible information not easy to hear not easy to acquire and then not easy not easy to synthesize. I want to give everyone's everyone Saundra's information here and because it's just such an important conversation to have and and really taking a look at what we can be doing you know across the sector. I want to say thank you everybody I'm coming to you today from my office so it's generally a little messy but I'm Julia Patrick you've seen behind the curtains today. A privilege I know. I've been joined by the beautiful Jared Ransom who is in the pristine studio good to go and so we want to make sure that we thank all of our sponsors who are here with us each and every day giving us so many opportunities to chat with amazing people like Saundra Madison so we want to say thank you very very much to that. What a great show we have a lot more coming up a lot of exciting things going on again we always like to end our episodes with this mantra that says stay well so you can do well. Saundra and Jared thank you so much this has been great.