 Court strikes out suit-sicking to compel INEC to allow the use of temporary voter cards or voter identification numbers on election day. And Nigeria has again scored 24 out of 100 points while ranking 150 among 180 countries on the 2022 Corruption Perception Index. This is Plus Politics, and I'm Mary Ann O'Connor. The Federal High Court sitting in Abuja yesterday struck out a suit seeking to compel the Independent National Electoral Commission, INEC, to allow registered voters on able to collect the permanent voter cards before the deadline to participate in the forthcoming elections using the temporary voter card or the voter identification number. The court, in a judgment delivered by Justice Bintanyako, struck out the suit on the premise that the deadline INEC gave for the collection of PVC across the Federation has not elapsed, adding that it would amount to an academic exercise for the court to issue the order, when INEC, in furtherance of its own decision to only allow those with PVCs participate in the impending elections, extend the deadline for collection of voter cards. Well, joining us to discuss this father is Emmanuel Umoran, he's a legal practitioner, and Dr. Obinna Chukwu, he's also a legal practitioner. Thank you so much, gentlemen, for joining us. Good evening. Good evening. Thank you for having me. Good evening, Baris Albinna. I think you need to unmute yourself so we can hear you clearly. Baris Albinna, can you speak now? Let's see if we can hear you. Yeah. A little bit now. Great. We can hear you now. Happy New Year. Say hello to you. Great. It's time. Great. Let me start with you, Baris Emmanuel. It's interesting that this suit was even put in place in the first place. Why would everybody go to court to ask for wins or temporary voter cards to be used when INEC has been pressed upon to extend the voter cards PVC collection, and it's still on as we speak. I mean, shouldn't the court have not even allowed this to even go to in front of any justice? Well, the registrar of the court cannot determine an action. It is a court itself. You see, it's unfortunate our colleagues are messing up our system. There's a principle of unrighteous in law, which a lot of people do not know. The principle of rightness is that an action is not right. Not that the court will not have jurisdiction, but an action is right. That's when the court can have jurisdiction. You see, there are clearly three arms of government in Nigeria, the executive, the legislative and the judiciary. Now, the development, the presidential system of government in America, which is what we have copied, the three arms of government system, protects each branch, really the executive branch. It gives it exclusive powers to do what it ought to do, what has been given to it by the constitution to do. It is when it has not done it that the court can have jurisdiction, or if it has concluded and somebody feels aggrieved, that's when the court can have jurisdiction. Recently, the Supreme Court affirmed this principle of unrighteous in the case of a day there and the data state PDP contest. One of the main reasons why the Supreme Court decided that case and was that the case was not what a day there took to court was not right. What the Electoral Act requires is when there is a publication, that is when the aggrieved persons can now approach the court, not before publication, same year, INEC has not concluded its work. Similar thing that unfortunately that Mr. Festus Kriamo is saying he wants to go to court to compare the police or ESC to prosecute Atikwa Bubaka. He knows clearly that in Ghanifawa Umi and IGP, Ghanifawa Umi and Akilu, the Supreme Court has clearly stated that where the executive branch has a discretionary power to do something, the court does not have jurisdiction to tell it to do it one way or the other. And Festus Kriamo, senior advocate of Nigeria, tried this gambit in 2006 when he brought an appeal, he said he was going to compare ESC to prosecute sub-state governors and all that. And we called on him and said it is not possible, you see, these are the things that we are doing wrongly as lawyers. We are messing up the system, we are making people lose confidence in the capacity of lawyers to do things right. That's my problem. The course of action is not right. And what I think the federal record judge should have done, should have been to slam damages on the lawyer himself to pay if we start doing that, it will sanitize this. The judges are letting these things come and go. But if you slam 10 million error damages on that lawyer and if he is able to pay that, he won't try such revolts another time. But by that... It's happening in other jurisdictions. It's happening in England, it's happening in the U.S. Look, Trump was made to pay, he brought the Fivolous suit against Hillary Clinton. He was made to... He had been fined $1 million. He won't try it another time. And lawyers are being sanctioned in the U.S. there every day for what? When they bring Fivolous with the Trump cases after the 2020 elections, a lot of lawyers are losing their licenses. I'm going to come back to you. Let's talk about the role that the judiciary will play in this election. But let me come to you, Barca Obina. It's interesting that many people before... Even before this suit became headline or anything to refer to, many have wondered if INEC would allow for people who have their temporary voters cards to participate in the election being that the VIN number is the same, until you get the permanent voters cards. And also knowing that there has been some bottlenecks in the whole process of picking up PVCs, many had already pushed for this to be done. Do you see INEC shifting grounds sometime in the future, knowing the situation of things that many people might still be disenfranchised after this process is shut down? Thank you. Before I respond to that theory, I want to disagree with my Leonard brother that the action wasn't right. I don't know why in Nigeria we are making this mistake, but it's not right for the court to make a decision, to give a final decision as to whether or not a temporary voters card that they managed from INEC can be used to vote in an election. Whether or not the number generated by INEC as a confirmation that a person or that somebody has registered as a voter in Nigeria, somebody a lawyer went to court or somebody went to court, that's in the court to put a finality on that. I don't think that the action is not right. That's number one. Then number two, we must also election. We are already in February. Election for the presidential election by February 25 will happen. And we are saying that it's not ready. I think fully well that in our courts there are so many delays, so many taxes may be possibly introduced by the court or by the respective lawyers to delay suit. I do not think that the matter is not right. I think it is right. Once again, judiciary has lost an opportunity to help Nigerians. In other countries, are they carrying voters card? What is a conclusive evidence that you are a registered voter in a country is that you have gone through the process of registration and the system has generated a number, a code for you. That code becomes your number. Even if you don't have your voter, the PVC, the card with you, the system should be able to correspond or match your number. You should be allowed to vote. Judiciary again has also lost the opportunity to shape Nigeria. The powers that we are giving to INEC, INEC we should not give INEC the power to become an alpha and omega or the power to pick and choose who should vote. Voter temporary voters card shows that it's a conclusive evidence that the voter has concluded the registration process to be a voter in Nigeria. Secondly, other countries are begging people to come to vote a election. Nigeria is still creating bottlenecks, providing hurdles that will ensure that Nigerians do not cast their vote. I do not think that that is the right thing. Judiciary has also failed again to help Nigerians to do the right thing. Then regarding the question that you asked, I think INEC, INEC yes, there are several or so many innovations that this INEC has come out with. But I think that INEC should elevate or should graduate to the point where INEC, once you have number, for instance in the bank, the BVN number that you have remains a number. It's a number. That BVN, your account, all the accounts that you have in all the banks can be traced. It's just a number. By stopping now, I'm sure that you know that we also have, I'm sure that you know we have NIN, we have the NIN cards, the NIN. You know that we have to keep giving our bio data for every time you want to get a SIM card, you want to renew your license, for every time you want to get an international passport, they recapture the same biometrics. So again, I want to ask quickly, and I'm not in any way trying to smack what you just said, but can we say that we're at a point where what you're saying can happen, because it's not that we're not talking about or having these conversations, but looking at what's on the ground, with the technology that we've been able to put our hands on, I mean, are you sure that we've gotten to that point where we can say, well, we're synchronizing and harmonizing all the data, even though we still have the most scattered around? Yes, I think I make sure, for me, I make sure to get to that level, because the beavers, the beavers, I do not think the beavers is already there. What is the beavers looking at essentially? It's looking at your, from what we understand beavers to mean. It will be looking at your facial. It will be looking at your facial. That goes beyond ordinary plastic and PVC can as it is called. I think that we should gravitate to a point where whether or not you carry that plastic card or not, insofar as your name, your number, your code is in the system, you should be able to put a good thing. And again, I also think that the time has come when we need to harmonize all these things. Even our ATM cards, even the card that we're using, we draw him money from the bank, we can put all these data in one simple card and use that card for all these activities. I think that is the best. But for me on the part of the judiciary, I think that the judiciary has also passed the problem with Nigeria. Most times, you'll find out that judiciary, yes, which way all belong, will just be a loop, will act as though judiciary is not part of Nigeria. The first scarcity that we have, the judiciary or judicial workers are not insulated from it. The prices of goods and services that are skyrocketing, judiciary is not also insulated from it. We all go to the same market. So why these aloofness? It would have been an opportunity to grill I-NEC. Tell us what this code means. Is it not in your system? If somebody has this number and the number is in your system, why must it be a must that you must carry a PVC card? It would have been an opportunity. But again, we have thrown away the baby and the bathwater. Thank you so much. I'm going to come back. He's disagreeing mostly with you saying that you agree with what the judge did and your statements about the judiciary. He's saying this was an opportunity that was stepped over. You see, we are lawyers. We speak like lawyers. The issue is clear. I-NEC has not decided that a water card collection has stopped as moved this third time. It has moved the time for collection. Now, if a man has... If I'm coming to you and I've not said I won't come to you anymore, why would you ask me to come now? Come now. You know I'm coming to you. The business, you see, we need to be speaking law to Nigerians. The process that I-NEC... The laws are given to I-NEC by the Constitution and the Electoral Act that it shall provide a water card to individuals. It's temporary water card and then there will be permanent water card. What I would have thought my little friend would be saying is that in the U.S. where he's talking about other countries, your ballot is sent to you by mailbox. In England, it's sent to you via mail. Well, yes. In some states or U.S., not every part of the U.S. My post, look, you don't go. You see, you can apply for different... Some states in the U.S. are yet to agree with the voting by mail. Yes, yes. No, but you see, voted by mail is also, you can also vote before the election date. You don't need to queue. Now in England, if you go, when you post your details at the post office, they respond to you by post. So what we should be asking ourselves, what has happened to a night post? You get the... A night should not take responsibility of the federal government. The federal government has its own responsibilities, which all... When we were going up, all my jam came to my father's PMB. My wife came to my father's PMB. We used to go, I have a box, but no case of a box anymore. What is night post doing? This is... Let's listen to them, but then technology, technology has moved away, people now have their mails. Despite technology moving away, the countries that are moving the technology are also keeping up those essentials. Absolutely. Because there is a record. You have got a bank account in England, you must have an address where your mails will be sent to. Now, my little friend is saying that... Okay, you have my ATM. Are you telling me that you can go to an ATM without your card and draw money despite the fact that you have BVN? You understand. These technologies have the ways they work. We should not sit down when we do not understand things fully, to start putting all the blames on INEC. INEC has done this bit. What we should ask is, what is the education that it is giving? Because if you look at where people struggle, I have gone to vote as an education. I did it two or three days ago. We went all around the mainland trying to educate people. A lot of people who came to INEC office did not know that they should go to their voting units. Registration units, yes. And we do not read. We do not listen. We do not take a decision from our homes and move on. We do not ask questions. These are things that we found on the streets. So, look, it's like the blacks in the U.S. The black man will tell you, oh, I can't go and spend three hours waiting to register to vote. But if we go to another person's daughter and wait for the parents to get out of there so they can go and take a teenager and further children, this is the problem we have. We're not pushing over the most important things we need. Voting is the most important thing we do as citizens of Nigeria. We will determine who votes us. But then people are saying they want to vote. I mean, the reality is right now is that there are a lot more people who are interested in voting and we also have new entrants into the voting register. And most of these people, not because they're not showing up to INEC office every day to get their PVCs, but they might not be ready. Some are doubly registered. And all of these things are happening just before the elections. Some people are now realizing it and they're saying, well, I have the number, which is the same thing on your site which shows that I am fully registered. Why can't I use my temporary card to vote in the election? Because the Constitution clearly states voter's card, but it did not necessarily say permanent or temporary, did it? Well, it's voter's card. Yes. If you go, if with what they are doing, the people are announcing people are collecting voter's card or blocking people from getting voter's card, those cards that can get into hands that do not belong to you. And by then you get there. Somebody comes with a temporary voter's card and another person comes with a card. You get, you have conflicts. And that is not the business of INEC that day. People start fighting. So, we need to give some space to INEC. And you see, let us give some slack to our courts. Our courts have done wonderfully well so far. Yes, there may be one or two errors that have been... They've done wonderfully well, really? Yes. Yes. So far? The Constitution under which they work, look, let me tell you. You don't think they play a role in how lopsided our electoral system is? You see, it is the courts do not write laws. This is the first time that the National Assembly has called specialists to come and assist them in writing electoral... Until now, the National Assembly always wrote the electoral laws to suit themselves. Until now. And that is the problem of the persons. And they have exclusive powers to determine that. You cannot sue them when they are making laws. It's when they have done making laws and most times they bring it close to the election period. Because there is this fight all the time with the National Assembly and the State Governors. The State Governors don't want some of them to come. And that's why I ask, because we see how the electoral... our calendar is, we have elections, totally different, the one in equities, totally different. And these are... And we've seen what's happening right now. The reason was this. Those previous elections where people were sworn in and they had to drag the elections for months. And at the end, the court determined who really won. You get... These are the reasons why you have distorted elections. And the Supreme Court has stated that the Constitution states you have four-year term, tenor. So four years must be four years. Do you understand? Now, if you look at the last election in the US, they didn't... There's only one state that they are still contesting in Arizona. Yeah, well... All other states have said the man together has sworn in, everybody's walking. It's Nigeria alone that you have this dragging... And unfortunately, like I said earlier, the courts are not doing one thing. They are not slamming costs, heavy costs of frivolous litigations. They must start it. Okay. And the most punished lawyers will bring these frivolous litigations. They must recommend them to the display committee of the NBA to punish them. And by Stabina disagrees with you. But by Stabina, I know that you wanted to come in and speak on a couple of things that he said. Please go ahead. My brother said we should talk law. And he talked about doctrine of rightness. Section 46 of the Constitution allows you to approach the court where your right is likely to be infringed. I do not think that the lawyer that went to court on the premise that the rights of registered voters who were given temporary voters card by INEC are most likely maybe derogated. I do not think that is wrong. Then secondly, he used America's example. In America, you don't carry voters card. Thank God he said that people sit in their houses, voters, ballot papers are sent to them. How did the electoral system or electoral institution in America arrive at that? Is looking at their data bank, looking at what they have, the names and the numbers of the registered voters and their addresses. It is upon that premise that ballot papers were sent to them. The word is moving far. Nigeria is still in the dark wrongs. We should, like I said, the court lost an opportunity to help us, to help us shape INEC, to help us shape Nigerian society. If the courts refuse to do that. Let me ask you a question, Barista. Are the courts helping us to change Nigeria, to help INEC, to help society? That's what you're saying, the courts should. I'm wondering who the court is, because you're an officer of the court too, aren't you? Yes, the courts. I'm not saying that the courts have done badly. The courts have always done well. In most of the dichotomous challenging periods in Nigeria, the courts have always come out to help us bail the court. What I'm saying is that the very particular judgment of this court was an opportunity lost. An opportunity to get INEC to rely on their database. An opportunity to get INEC to begin to use the codes and the numbers that were generated and fixed in the footer's card. The same number that will be in your temporary footer's card generated by a system is the same number that will also appear on the permanent footer's card. INEC should start using those numbers. I am seeing in a foreseeable feature that a time will come when Nigerians may not need to queue up to vote. Nigerians may sit in the prison, in their sitting rooms or in their bedrooms and log on online and use their number the code to vote. In the Nigerian Bar Association election, the last election that was held, and as in three previous or so elections we have always voted from our houses. How did we do that? We used our supreme code numbers, the enrollment numbers. We keyed them in and keyed some other things. The code to vote is the same. You log into the system and you cast your vote. I think we are going to have a full-fledged conversation about data management in this country and then it will set the ball rolling. Maybe I will have to bring you two gentlemen back to discuss about data management and how we can harmonize it but unfortunately time is not on our side. We have to go. Gentlemen, thank you very much. If anything changes if Anik decides to backpedal on the issue of TVCs and PVCs, maybe we will have you all back in the studio. I want to say thank you. Obinachiku is a legal practitioner also by Seimano Moran. Thank you so much gentlemen. Very great sparring conversation. Thank you very much. Thank you my little friend. When we return we will be discussing Nigeria's ranking as one of the most corrupt countries in 2022 and who made us make that list will get to find out after this break.