 This is the Rex Popup Call on Wednesday, January 16th, 2019 with Sarah Salty about creativity and reframing creativity and a poem I've picked to take us into the call is by Billy Collins who is a funny poet and it's titled The Afterlife and goes as follows. While you are preparing for sleep brushing your teeth or riffing through a magazine the dead of the day are setting out on their journey. They are moving off in all imaginable directions each according to his own private belief and this is the secret that Silent Lazarus would not reveal that everyone is right as it turns out. You go to the place you always thought you would go, the place you kept lit in an alcove in your head. Some are being shot up a funnel of flashing colors into a zone of light, light as a January sun. Others are standing naked before a forbidding judge who sits with a golden ladder on one side, a cold shoot on the other. Some have already joined the celestial choir and are singing as if they have been doing this forever while the less inventive find themselves stuck in a big air conditioned room full of food and chorus girls. Some are approaching the apartment of the female god, a woman in her forties with short wiry hair and glasses hanging from her neck by a string. With one eye she regards the dead through a hole in her door. There are those who are squeezing into the bodies of animals, eagles and leopards and one trying on the skin of a monkey like a tight suit ready to begin another life in a more simple key. While others float off into some benign vagueness, little units of energy heading for the ultimate elsewhere, the afterlife life. Let's go straight for how creative are you going to be next time around, right? Yes, how creative are you going to be? That's actually a great lead in. I thought that I, Estie and Todd know that I have a heart, I am a very visual thinker and it's hard for me to think and talk without pictures so I do have some slides I'd love to share with you as a way of just kind of facilitating the flow of the narrative that I thought I'd open with and then as I think is the strength of this group, one of the strengths of this group is that this is really a conversational event and so I'm hoping that my brief kind of sharing will set the stage for some good conversation. That sounds excellent. Feel free to screen share at will. It's working and we see Keynote or PowerPoint. There we go. So there's actually two pieces of what I thought would be fun to share with you today and one is just a sort of orientation to what I call the creative constellation framework which is a sort of set of tools and concepts that I've been developing over some time to help us think differently about our own selves as creators. And the second is a kind of way of looking at how this new way of thinking about creativity fits into the larger socio-economic political shifts that we're in. And so that's I'm going to sort of give a little taste of each one and then we can decide collectively if you want to go further down either one of those paths we can do that. So the creative constellation framework is a set of tools that I've developed to explore a very particular question that we're not used to asking which is the question of how are you creative? And the framework it's actually kind of stunning in an era where creativity has become kind of a cardinal virtue that we don't ask this question of ourselves and of our children, of others around us. And so part of the interest in looking at the broader picture of the socio-political economic kind of context is to understand why haven't we gotten to this question sooner. So the thing itself, the framework that I've developed is really made up of two interlocking layers. The first is the idea of creative constellation mapping, the notion that each of us are creative in multiple ways and that we would be helpful to have a sort of menu of options to be able to say which are the ways I'm most creative and how do they interact, what is the system that my creativities create for me, that what are the patterns that are available to me because of the array of ways in which I'm creative. That interlocks with, intersects with a second kind of model, which is this notion of a creating process cycle, which really helps us to visualize the kind of terrain that we move through as creators, the notion of creating as a process with particular sort of universal dynamics, which we experience very personally. And also the notion that each of us within this sort of cyclical process of creating have particular zones of strength and areas where we, where our creative powers are sort of at their fullest and areas where we need to be collaborating and co-creating with others in order to complete a cycle of creating. So that's kind of the framework at a really high level. I thought I'd just go quickly to the way that we I think have gotten, that we've inherited some questions that have taken us down a different kind of track. The first is the question, the older question of are you creative, that sort of comes out of or makes sense as a question within the industrial age, where creativity is really sort of more narrowly associated with the arts, where work is really organized, as all of you know, around sort of bureaucratic structures or factory structures, where creativity is really seen as largely external to the economy, and really as a sort of rarefied talent or trait that some folks have and some don't. So in an era where sort of productivity is the economy happening down on the ground with the nose to the grindstone, and creativity is the arts which is sort of head in the clouds and dreaming and imaginative, or to get really, you know, sort of that sort of culture and the economy are two separate spheres. And in that kind of context, there's actually not only a sort of binary kind of split between productivity and creativity, but a kind of moral overlay around that in the sense that from the perspective of productivity, creativity looks very hedonistic, very sort of what head in the clouds, airy fairy, all of those kinds of things. We know that the question, are you creative, become sort of a sorting hat, you know, for are you going to be able to operate within an economy based where the values are around conformity, obedience, heterogeneity? So the yes answer is sort of, oh dear, it's associated with poverty, with social ostracism, with addiction, with mental instability. Best if you live in your own colonies or garrets or whatever. And certainly the idea would be if you are creative that you'd be creative in one way. You're probably a writer, you're a performer, you're a visual artist. Then on the no side, great, you're going to be a good cog, right? And perhaps the quiet desperation is just the passing phase, we'll hope. So of course, all the changes we know about in this group particularly happened and really kind of left us in a place where now we're in a world where creativity and the economy are so swirled together, so tied up with one another, they really can no longer be teased apart and that they operate in this kind of dynamic system. So the question, are you creative with the idea that the answer is yes or no, some of you have or don't have, is really kind of falling away. Although it's still, obviously the traces of that story are still with us in the sense that it's still very possible to find people who will say they don't have a creative bone in their body or by which they usually mean that they're not drawn into the arts or artistic expression. So we're now more at a place where the question has shifted to how creative are you, with the emphasis on getting more creative as the thrust of our sort of self-improvement ethos. Where creativity is really because of that intersection with the economy become a kind of central cultural virtue and it really kind of takes us down two paths which obviously are in relationship to each other. One is the idea of creativity as a key to personal liberation and a sort of self-realization practice. And the other in workplaces is the notion of creativity as a key to business innovation, a driver of the economy. And in that context, more often the notion is of creativity as an sort of optimizable brain event, a sort of hackable technology of the brain that we could engineer to go faster or more or better. I'm going to go just a little bit down that second path primarily and just sort of look at this notion of what happens when creativity and productivity become so entangled. At the extremes of that, we see where creativity is really fully co-opted by the ethos of productivity. We see a lot of what we're seeing now which is this emphasis on turning up the dial to 11, right? Which at one end of the spectrum has to, we hear a lot about sort of hacking your daily routine to be more creative, changing your diet to get more creative, having new tools. And then as you go down the spectrum, you get into the trends around micro dosing, LSD, electric brain stimulators, all of these ideas that relate to this notion that it's sort of this brain event that we could stimulate more and more and get more new ideas before breakfast, so to speak. So the question I think that intrigues me is this discomfort with that direction that we're adding. And this question of, is what we mean by creativity really just sort of productivity on its head? Is it this image from this cover of this 3M slide deck? Is it the same productivity guy who's all alone in a sterile field, fully ripped and indicating his discipline and self-mastery and sort of fully hacked in terms of his daily routines, etc. And I think from my work with people who are working creators, it feels like we've gone down the wrong track in that narrative. I think what my work comes from is a place of understanding that creativity is not a brain event, or at least that it doesn't make, it isn't very helpful to think of it that way, that it cannot be separated from the relational context of creating and SD has been a really powerful co-thinker that's really supported my own development of this kind of elaboration of this way of thinking. That creativity doesn't happen in isolation from the world, but rather in response to the world. And that it occurs as an enactment of complex interconnectivity both within ourselves, so the interconnectivity of our multiple creativities and between ourselves and the world. So we might embrace a definition of creativity that's much more like a very sort of old-fashioned way of thinking of the notion of the caring imagination that brings the world to life. So if we're thinking into an economy that relates in a new way to creativity, it really calls us not for just turning the guy on his head, but a deeper shift in self-concept, in mindset, and in ways of being. So shifting from the notion of the productive self, I act upon the world, to a notion of the creative self, I act within the world. And I won't read through all of the bullets here, and I think this is a shift that we're seeing and feeling probably in this group from multiple different angles would be interesting to have some conversation around that. So there's my little fern. So in this context, the idea of getting more creative really leads us not toward brain stimulation or better drugs, but really toward deepening our engagement with the world, attuning to our particular array of responses to the world. In other words, knowing ourselves as creators, understanding the dynamics of creating as a process, learning how we work best as creator among creators, and really growing our skill at extending our caring imaginations into the world. And so this question, how are you creative, which my work is centered on, is really seeing creativity as enactments of the complex interconnectivity within oneself and between oneself and the world. It is the actions through which we evolve and regenerate the world and ourselves. So shall I press on and take a little deeper look into the framework itself, or would you like to pause and have a chance to sort of take in the narrative to date? I think pausing for a second would be good. Love where you're going and what you're saying and your beautiful slides. And we're visual and everything else as well. So this really, I think, resonates with a lot of us. And I was thinking just of passing the Florida Estee, because she knows you quite well and can sort of add layers of meaning that resonate with us, et cetera. So Estee, you want to, and Sarah, will you unshare your screen just for a little bit and we'll come back to it? Use me a chance to catch up on the chat as well. Exactly. I first of all want to say that I'm seeing a whole bunch of these slides for the first time, and in a way that I'm sure you'll appreciate having experienced Sarah and her creative products for even this small interval. It's a delight to have these things emerge in both language and flow, et cetera. I think one of the journeys that Sarah and this work have been on is to get beyond this thing where given a framework, you turn it into a taxonomy. And I am this, I am not that, right? It's kind of a Myers-Briggs for the creative side of you or some such way of thinking. And what one of the core, one of the most core elements of Sarah's understanding of creativity is that it is your life. It is your bio. It is ever shifting in that way. From my standpoint, Sarah and I first kind of recognized one another as children of the same mother when she was insisting that creativity and we as creators are multiple, that it makes no more sense to think of your talents as it were, using the old words as singular, as it does to think of your identity as singular and your mind as one mono-minding thing. So anyway, at this moment, all I want to say is I'm thrilled to see, I'm just enjoying this moment of seeing all that complexity and system and sociality, everything reflected in the slides with this group, right? This couldn't be, couldn't it be nicer? And I'm dying to hear what you're seeing. So, hey, Tom, hi. Yeah, Tom, Bo, Todd, do you want to jump in? I'm enjoying this very much. I really like the insights and the whole stance of this. I like multiple creativities. I like that it's a being in the world thing, it's not some stupid hero's journey domination of the world patriarchal bullshit. I mean, I also sense a lot of, as I put in the chat, I sense a hermeneutics is all over this too. I see Heidegger here. I see a lot of really great advanced thinking. This isn't, you know, this is built on solid stuff too. Cool. I like, by the way, having you presented to us. I don't like to presume that we all know what Sarah has to say. I really like having Sarah tell us what she thinks, you know? Yeah, yeah. Thank you. One of my working assumptions in sort of dreaming up this relationship economy thing is that we're actually born really creative, connected to the world. I think we're born seeing things that we don't see anymore as adults because we then manage to socialize all these insights out of us. And we're living in, you know, modernism and other isms basically have eaten our brains and mostly stamp out our creativity. So we manage somehow work, play, and learning all used to be one circle. They all used to overlap. You know, if you look at hunting tribes that go out and they're laughing and learning and actually doing the work of finding food. And we used to do that. We managed to separate it both in terms of our day and in terms of our lifespan. Right? So this is the learning. And our identity, exactly. So you have to sort of manufacture different aspects of identity for these different roles. And God forbid your LinkedIn profile should be too humorous or too idiosyncratic or whatever. It's a little bit like having a home that has too many odd features so it doesn't look like a vanilla home on the market and loses its value, right? Which is just weird. I have a friend who spent a couple of years with her husband customizing their home. They just like built in bookcases and did intriguing things all over and then had a really hard time selling it because that unique buyer that would understand what they had done, what's apparently not in the market. Yeah, it has to be painted white. Yeah. And has to have granite countertops and a subzero fridge and God knows what. There's sort of a standard issue checkbox items for real estate these days. So I'm wondering like what creativity challenges are we looking at? How does this framework fit where we are? Tom, any thoughts? Thank you. Yes. And by the way, Sarah, I'm enjoying this very much. Appreciate it. I was just, I think when I hear a lot in the business world about creativity, that's exactly the problem. It's in the business world. It's seen as a means to an end. It's a means of creating value and wealth. So we're worshiping that. Innovators are now seen as these things. Everybody is working to make sure that they have one of those kind of words as either entrepreneur, innovator in their title to imply that I'm part of that creative class is creating value for the world, which is good. So it's just something we need to be doing, but it's a narrow application of creativity. And then the other aspect that I was just thinking about is the idea that when you read, well, like creativity as a joint experience, something we do together seems to get lost a lot. We talk about collaboration, et cetera, but honestly, there's a lot of people in the business world who want to hire that one creative person that will be the creator that we all need. And I would be interested more in figuring out, as a group, how do we be creative together? Or what does it mean to be the creative? What's my role in that group as we together create something that I couldn't have created myself? Estee, is that called multi-multi-minding? We'll make do with one multi. Okay, good, because we go to meta meta and suddenly gets confusing, right? Right, right. If they can talk about the singularity, we can just talk about multi-larity. Would you agree? Okay, good. I just want to add an appreciation that Sarah talked about economy, because the scale of what we're actually talking about here, as Tom alluded to, is much greater than our individual or aggregate creative abilities. I think the vision for this framework is that it could change the way in which we organize and operate around creativity. And so I know how much thought and time and years Sarah has put into this. So this is thrilling to me, both to see her here and to knock back down from how big it is. Yeah, and another thing, you know, I've actually had the job created directly. And I'll say that it completely was a group activity. I mean, I shepherded and played with other people. That's what the job was. And it was a blast. It was not me dictatorially telling everybody and killing their ideas. In fact, I specifically did but not do that. I wanted to get their creativity, have them have fun and get their unique contribution. But I don't think that my business overlords exactly understood that. Yeah, I mean, it really becomes about questions of how to cultivate the conditions within which people can can do their creating that together and that the skills of that cultivation of the environment are itself a form. One of the creating modes that I've identified really relates specifically to that it is one of the ways in which creativity shows up through us is in the ability or the the genius for cultivating environments within which living things thrive. And that's part of the human work of of creating as much as it is in a garden or, you know, other settings where we think of cultivation more traditionally. It's funny. I was just trying to find while you were presenting, Sarah, I was reminded of something I just recently read about just the total top down autocratic nature of work, how work ate our universe, how work basically took over our lives and became central. And I'm pretty sure it's this this one, the case against work, which I've put in my in my brain at the link I will paste right here in our chat. But basically, you know, our culture is to obsess with work. We've gotten caught up in a game that deadens our spirits, this limits our horizons, etc. It's really interesting how we've allowed this to happen. So it feels like you're carrying an antidote. And if you'd like to go back into your presentation and take us a couple steps through that'd be great too. I'd like that. And I just want to add one thing, you know, this whole how come we threw out play, we somehow think work and play are exclusionary or mutually exclusive. And everyone ever know who really is a rock star, play is definitely part of it. Why do we give up fun and play? And we kind of think that that's what we have to do. And Jerry, you know, we're talking about the Prussian educational model here. Anyway, so look, I'm ready, Sarah, you keep going. I'm enjoying it. You should not play nine. Yeah, because those of us down here on the earth in productivity town don't have time for play. You know, that's what people do. Hack it in the, you know, it's a very, yeah, it's that it's that split. Pick up the piece and stick it in the machine. Yeah. And yet, if you and yet, and what we have done in that is to externalize all of that humanness, the place of feeling and play and responsiveness, sensitivity to the world by externalizing that into the role of the artist or the musician. Then we tap it, they give it back to us after work when we go to the movie or we put on the recording or we tap into the music, but it's not ours. It's there. You know, we're just we receive it back as a consumable. And technology technology really changed a lot of this because we used to learn how to play a recorder or a fiddle or whatever. And now you're basically playing, you know, an mp3 on your phone, which used to be an mp3 player, but that went away. But we've externalized culture to the point also where it's also polished that most of us don't attempt to make culture with each other because it seems so amateur, it seems so crude when it's just us doing it. And, you know, there's still a lot of people out there who understand this and who like learn to play instruments and make make art with each other. But mostly we've, you know, technology really interfered. And then Bo was ooing because a big piece of the relationship economy is about the is a complaint about the consumerization of every sphere of our lives that that we're being treated as mere consumers by every system we interact with, not just consumer goods, but our educational system, our punitive legal policing system, or you name it, we're just mere consumers to them. Yeah, I was working at a university where they were really on attack of trying to of changing the language so that you are the students were the customers. And the conversation around that isn't what is that's not an appropriate language for the role of student who is and, you know, a co creator of their learning there, they are investing themselves, you know, it is it is and sort of what gets what gets smashed out of our experience and and our ability to see see the real dynamics of what's going on because of that mono discourse, you know, is is something for this for sure. I talk to a partisan dinner parties and people ask me what I do. I love to tell them that I'm a dilettante and because I have and notice in our culture, what does dilettante mean? It's not a good thing to know what it meant just 150 years ago. It means to delight in this or both. So maybe after today you can you'll adopt the language that you're a you're a multimodal creator. Yeah, let's go. Let's go, Sarah. I like that a lot. We could be dilettante, leneurs and amateurs. Yeah, I like it. I like it. But I put it in the chat a book called mono culture and it's just Sarah, you're talking about turning consumers as students into consumers. It's the same idea. We have this overriding idea that is changing all of society, which is economy is master's idea. And it's the reason why people thought it was a good idea to put a businessman in charge of a government. Well, we need to have education and governance and business, all the separate universes and really let them be what they are. Unfortunately, we're trying to treat each of those as if they're all businesses. And it's causing a lot of loss of the other stuff we need. Yeah. Okay, so just to take you one step further into the model itself here. And I am not going to be able to track the chat as we go. So if something's coming up, that's something we should pause and answer or talk or speak to. Let's please feel free to call my call me to attention to that. So the idea of the creative constellation framework is that I have identified 25 different creative modes. And that rather than seeing ourselves as the yes or no, are you, aren't you, that it's really about what select all that apply. Not only sort of what's the array of creativities that are expressed through you, but then also the second step of how do we make sense of that? What's the significance to us of the way in which those creativities interrelate? So the first underlying assumption here is that not everyone is creative in the same way, that creativity is multiple. And this sort of slide gives me a chance to, you know, when I'm talking about this with people to sort of have us take a look at sort of would we agree that these are all creative people and yet what they are the kinds of puzzles that, you know, part of creativity is finding out which kinds of problems feel like play to you to solve, right? And so each of these creators has a different kind of play, a different kind of problem that feels like play to solve. The thinking here is not is very similar, right, to Howard Gardner's work on multiple intelligences, where he, it wasn't that long ago in the 1980s that he sort of disrupted the notion of intelligence as a single thing and invited us to shift the question from are you smart to how are you smart? And so this is a very similar move that I'm making with creativity. But I think he, I think there are like eight intelligences in his, in Gardner's model. And, you know, Einstein said creativity is intelligence having fun. So my thought was, you know, when I was trying to sort out how many of these creative modes could there be, certainly our multiple intelligences can have multiple ways of having fun. And so it really I found 25 to be sort of irreducible. I worked really hard to reduce it further. But that's kind of what I where I've landed. So not only are there these multiple ways of being creative, but many people are creative in multiple ways. If we look at Alice Waters, for example, who is the the has become a leader of this or slow food movement and the edible schoolyards project started out as a maker, as a chef, was unhappy with the quality of the food that she was able to serve. And so became a cultivator of learning about organic foods. She also came of age in the 60s in Berkeley and had a strong sort of disruptor streak, which in my model really relates to the notion of being at a spot of ending what doesn't work and creating the conditions for renewal into a new cycle. And so she began, you know, she saw the ways in which the, the monoculture of food and the corporate structures around food were injuring us all. And so became this sort of moved into social innovator mode, developing this edible schoolyard project, which tapped into her uplift her mode as a teacher, but also ultimately positioned her to step really into leader mode as a kind of spokesperson and way shower for many, many others around the issues of close to her heart of food and community. So my thinking is that it is your combination of creativities that is sort of the guidance system that can lead you to those places of greatest satisfaction to you, but also the greatest contributions to the world. So as Estee was pointing out earlier, the notion is that your constellation is not a type. It's a flexible tool for exploration that allows for evolution and growth over time. One of the things that helps us to see is that we are meant to be expressing those, the major modes in our constellation are we sort of feel it in the inverse when we're not creating in those ways, we're somewhere on a spectrum from gritchy and irritable to fully depressed. And so it can also be a way of sort of tracking back to our own wellness, those parts of our wellness that are tied to the expression of our creativities. For people like probably many of us, but certainly Bo has expressed this, the notion of like being too creative, like too many things, too many directions, this is a model that helps to reframe what feels like excess within the productivity model as a sort of asset, that it helps to identify areas of strength and challenge within the creating process. And I think importantly, it's different from sort of a strength finder's model in the sense that it really the way that I framed the creative modes relates to the way of understanding yourself in terms of the outcomes you're designed to create. So it's really focused on impact. What is it that I'm built to create? What is it that only someone with my array of creativities can bring forward in the world, rather than traits or qualities? So the kinds of questions it opens up are sort of what are the relationships between your creativities? How do they work together as a system? What are the contributions that are possible with this array of creativities? And what collaborators do you need in order to see the work of your creative imagination manifested fully in the world? So I just, I love this framing of it from Nora Bateson who talks about this kind of, you know, as a sort of practical capacity that we require in our world that we're not the complexity of the world that we're in now, that developing an understanding of the patterns and processes of interdependency in complexity is sort of supremely practical for us right now in terms of both in terms of our own inner complexity and also our interdependencies with one another in the world. So the second layer, so there's these 25 modes, some of which, some number of which you resonate with as being major modes within your constellation, but all of that kind of lays over this second layer which I just will build up for you real quickly here. So the idea is that within the creating process cycle really there are these four spaces. There's the space of generation when ideas are new and flowing and all things are possible. There's the layer of the zone of manifestation where those ideas are being made tangible. There's a space of release and connection where things are brought in new cultural forms are brought into conversation with the world and there's this space of the void, the places in between where in a time of what can feel like nothingness particularly in the west or emptiness but which other cultures have a much clearer insight into the dynamics of all that's happening in that void space. So here's just, oh I forgot I had all these words on this slide, let me just flip through them for you. I thought they were. One of the things about the void of course is that it really is a time of rest and reflection which our productivity driven cultural ethos has kind of flattened or diminished and or made into an illness that we treat our depression, our times of deep rest as evidence of a kind of illness as opposed to a moment within the society. A question Sarah, where do external things happen good and bad but maybe mostly bad like the stresses of poverty, people, you know, haters who hate your work, moments sort of moments of social stress that motivate your work, all those kinds of things, where do they come in to the model? There's a couple, let me go one step further and see if it answers that and I don't know that it will as fully as we all might like. So see if this next piece helps a little bit. So the question that comes after this picture which is okay so we're going around this cycle is what are the ways in which we sustain, what are the forces that help us to sustain forward momentum in the creating process? What are the things that slow us down or make us stuck? What are the things that even flip us into a backward cycle, a sort of fear driven sort of anti-creative cycle and I won't go into all of that but those are the sort of questions that come up next I think. Oh I can't wait. I love how you have the board in there by the way and it just it really resonates with me and I that's a part that I actually myself and other creatives hide from the people from the business heads around us. We hide that from them because it makes them scared. All they want to see is and I used to always get this well no one else has done it now oh god but please continue but I love this. Yeah I mean I think that that is the piece that if we do not if we don't acknowledge it name it reckon with it we are not in a creating world we in some other world but that is sort of defining of the creative experience as opposed to some other experience that might have common features. So if the question is then what drives momentum the first answer I think is a set of practices that creators over time learn to cultivate that sort of are both within also with others but they're they're sort of these core practices of caring in other of sort of investing our our caring attention in the world or in the thing that we're doing. The thing with creating of course is that it involves falling in love with things that don't yet exist sustaining that caring for something that no one else can maybe see is a real is one of those challenges that that creators face. Stay you know caring also renders us vulnerable and so that's another place that gets that makes us nervous within the productivity ethos right because it smacks of vulnerability. So trusting both trusting in one's own one's own creative trusting your ability to sort of meet the moment when it arises your own your own intuition but also of course trusting your co-creators and trusting the process itself. Presencing the notion of on the first level is showing up and then second level is the quality of the attention that you bring to the the being present. Practicing the notion of of continual learning and skill building in an intentional way. Risking again the notion you know a vulnerable notion of practicing the sort of what the hell I'm doing it anyway kind of because it requires to go beyond what what is known or what has been done before always requires this sort of leap off the cliff right. Inquiring the the the notion of bringing one's curiosity asking more questions than the next person digging deeply not only into what is possible but also what is what is really what do I really see what is really happening here. And playing so here we're back another key word for Bo is that that notion that that play is one of the core practices of creating and again without the presence of these kind of core practices I think we're in some other space other than the the creating space. The other factor in the model that I think supports our our creative momentum is what I sort of call it sort of Tolkien ass care but they're the ring of guidance right. There's that there are other people in the world who and some of those other people are particularly skilled they their creativities are clustered or heightened in the areas in creative modes which relate to guiding others. So there's a set of those we'll look at them in a second but that we're in a system that that has in it other people who are designed who have the special capacities to help us kind of grow and evolve and move around the cycle who hold us when we are stuck or going in reverse who teach us who cultivate and this is what you know who cultivate the the way and who help us heal all of those kinds of things. So there's sort of three caveats to this like crazily perfect circle idea that doesn't really help us very much or sort of keeps us in those sort of perfect little circle kind of way of thinking. The first is that of course there's an evolutionary kind of piece to this that that growth is happening here so there's a spiral piece but I think the second caveat is even more important which is that creating isn't one pass through the cycle that creating is fractal that it is multiple mini cycles within a larger cycle of creating. So what what part of the implication of that is that we are in cycles that include voids at small and larger scales all the time and so for that reason we need the third caveat which is that creating the experience of creating is one of surging forward followed by times of retracting inward right and this is also if again you see sort of that in this great wave image that fractalness of it right we are we are you know even the cycle of a day you surge forward you retract inward for reflection and in our lifetimes we have periods of much larger you know we're sort of retractions spaces where we need to do that kind of retreating before we push forward again very sort of different from the linear ever upward you know kind of of product of the productivity. I'm just a really tiny really small side note Sarah but I just typed it into the chat. Hokusai basically painted this same scene like four or five times in his lifetime have you seen that? Yes. It makes a really beautiful example of sort of the evolution of creativity in his life because that that massive transformative sort of abstract wave at the end is really really different from the first three renderings at different you know and then decades go by between his attempts to paint this scene it's really interesting. Yeah and Jerry by the way look at this look at this graphic Jerry there you are cross pollinator curator matchmaker I've never seen a model more clearly identify you Jerry. That's cool. So what happens when we overlay the two things is that that the 25 modes tend to cluster around these spaces of the creating process and so there are there are a set of modes that relate to sort of the direct expression of those core practices which I call the essentialist modes there are a set that relate to the generation space which are the generators there's a set that are around manifestation which are the manifestors that release and connection phase of creating where where Bo's identifying Jerry has some major major modes in his constellation I call the sort of connectors grouping and then there are this set of guides and I just have a couple if you just one more go go one more step sort of into this so this is kind of what it can look like as people start to work with plotting their constellations onto onto the model a couple different views of of folks who have who have mapped theirs out but so those essentialist modes are the cultivator mode which relates to that core practice of caring and also presencing maybe more but the witness mode which is really the sort of the mode in which we're fully sort of embodying the notion of presencing of simple observation without judgment the play artist mode which is the mode in which we're sort of expressing that core practice of play delight wonder all of those things are part of the the the the mode of play artist the investigator mode which is sort of the the core mode relating to the inquiring or the the curiosity core practice and adventurer mode which relates to many of these actually but really sort of inquiring into the into the world through direct experiences of of adventure I'm gonna I don't want to take too much time so but I'll just preview the other modes for you so the generator modes are a designer mode expressionist which relates to the expression of one's inner states of sort of creating representations of one's inner inner reactions to the world so it's where many of the people we think of in terms of of being artists kind of fit in fit in there inventor mode thinker mode and social innovator mode um and so the notion of generators sort of well in possibility there's some common threads that generators share manifestor modes are sort of the maker mode choreographer mode which choreographers create the conditions for harmonious co-creativity systematizers who create order so that manifestation can occur refiners who take rough or unfinished things and make them polished and whole and analysts analyst mode let's skip the summary connector modes matchmaker interpreter so interpreter is a connector mode because they are taking existing cultural material and embodying it in a way that translates it to an audience as a musician as an actor as a lawyer as a professor there's many different sort of professions that draw upon interpreter mode curator who creates arrangements or you know who creates through selection and arrangement and cross pollinators who create points of interpenetration between disparate ways of thinking or domains of thought or action and then there are the there are the guiding modes so uplifter storyteller leader mystic and healer and i think yeah i'm gonna i'll stop there partly because we're out of time i think but um but also that gives you a sense i think of sort of the the way in which those two two layers the 25 modes and the creating process cycle kind of overlap and and and how those cluster together so that one's constellation isn't necessarily within one space or another but it's how you work around you know where your strengths and and interplay is around the cycle of wow sir fantastic work i mean that must i can tell that must have taken you years oh my gosh wow it was one year just to illustrate all the modes wow but the the thinking behind it was was years before that so i i'm very grateful to um that that comes through in in in terms of you've reached a clarity of expression with all of this framework that's really lovely to to watch i mean it it it lays itself out you walk through it well the words you've chosen are illustrative and descriptive of the things you're trying to say right although s you just wanted no no oh no i'm nodding yes okay that was a yes no um and also and i don't know if you know this but our calls usually run 90 minutes so if you can stay with us we have another 30 minutes what a gift yes that's great this is like a bonus round this is yeah i was like i was in the tyranny of the hour um exactly exactly we can all level up here and keep talking uh so i i wanted i wanted to pop in here or have us come back to your question about what about what happens right um uh yeah so whether that's now or in a few minutes in our bonus yeah thanks i was i was gonna go there too i was just interested in what anybody else where anybody else wanted to take uh what sarah has has shown us what i really like about sarah's model is uh so all of us are taught to extinguish our creativity we're all taught that it's somebody else that it's not us you know the uh that's some other expert out there um i don't know what i i would i'd really like to see that sarah's mission in the world is go out there and show everybody yeah everybody's creative that lawyer is creative did you know she mentioned lawyer how many people think lawyers are created i mean so yeah i mean the this the way we've just stigmatized and shoved creativity into a corner yet we we live on it we live in a world that would be horrible without it i mean so i really like i really like i really like see sarah's mission as teach show the world that everyone's creative and how it actually works and that's and by the way sarah i can't help but notice how few things were in the void you know when you were talking consolation yeah i mean i think that i think that what my sense is is that the um different modes different different of the other creative modes have different relationships to the void so wow so that so that people who are very strong manifesters for example tend to be very have the have a great greatest struggle with the void where people who are generous strong generators tend to think of the void as the space from which the new stuff is going to come and it's not that it's easy but it's easier to make sense of it people who are guides have a sense because they think in terms of an evolutionary uh or a natural process that includes you know cycles and cycles of birth and death and regeneration are particularly suited to helping other people when you know come come through those void times so it's not i while i haven't placed any of the creative modes specifically in the void we might put mystic there um that's one way to think about it think about what a mystic is is that they sort of hold the space for the void help us kind of engage with that i think that's a big you know what i i think there's one reason we have a big problem with the void and i think it's the reason is this dominant patriarchal culture of ours thinks in only its solar dominant power and the void is about surrender yes and western culture does not understand surrender at all yeah if you know and it you have to really kind of go outside of that to find ways of thinking about the what they call the fertile void oh with that i know the term yes yeah and so there's there like in tibetan thought there are i forget there's like a set of you know countless different energies they're all ha all at work in the void um that have been named you know that we all we see is nothingness and fear and fear of the void you know just yeah do more act faster numb out you know whatever the thing i see with corporate managers is and it's just they wonder why they can't innovate and why there's so little innovation and anything it's quite simple most of them are taught to get things done to look at to do lists they're administrators and there's no void there in fact they're taught to destroy stop voids remember happening you know void only happens that intimate relationship between our capacity for stillness and emptiness that the void requires and our capacity for generative work in the world that those are those are so closely connected like we really can't do generative work in the world without building our capacity for stillness and holding the void both the letting go and the grief parts of it but also the the general you know the virtual part of it oh you're speaking about oh yeah i can imagine i love us at your library sir that the different groups each have a different there there's probably if you look at the language for like the manifestors or the general generators but the generators probably have a much more comfort with that that void you know the beginner's mind or uh finding a stillness and i often found that in business there's a there's a potentially you'll constantly be doing if you're not doing and you're not adding value and the idea of somebody sitting still and thinking deeply or allowing their mind to just cleanse um but then these people actually do have ways of valuing this stillness they'll still talk about needing a vacation to recharge or type so i would be fun just to explore the different languages um for each group to see what are the pro and con ways of spinning that void but i had a bigger question because i love the idea so you were doing this to your finger and you did put a spiral in your your chart there can you explain a little bit what you were thinking about um in terms of the spiral yeah i think there's this twin notion that when we are doing the work of creating we are we are both um evolving the world moving the world forward and evolving ourselves so it's it's it's both and at the same time so there's discovery and um but sarah i'm uncomfortable here where's my binary where's my dualism i'm starting to feel anxious so you know as we as we move around that spiral if and here okay you're gonna really like this boat if if we are not um allowing and surrendering to the void we we are going around and around the cycle at one level right so we we can keep going around and around in a flat kind of way and it is actually our experiences of the void which deepen and broaden us in part it's our experience of all the challenges of creating that that that grow us that that we learn from that that expand our expand who we are um but there's a particular role that that if we want to be moving sort of upward and outward as the spiral uh implies that that there's a there's an expanding and growing and you know uh elevating kind of process at work you we are if we are meeting the challenges of creating we are building our muscles and creating of ourselves people who are capable of bigger challenges the next time around right that we are um you see this with artists too that you can see an artist who is um has has come up with one sort of style or one kind of painting and because of the because of their own fears lack of capacity to risk or because of the requirements of the marketplace they can stay in that zone for years and years and years and years and they don't really at some point they're not really creating anymore in in the model that i'm that i'm suggesting they're they are reproducing but but to really move to another cycle where you're generating something truly new you have to reckon with the the void space and also not turn back from all of the challenges that come up along the way in that journey of creating wow it's amazing how you you're the professor of creativity i mean it's me you can put words and shape around us sarah you realize this is really unique by the way as an artist that i you know if i were to demonstrate what you just said about artists i would show mid-career de kooning versus late de kooning well still it's my favorite example too still changed styles dramatically from era to era just seriously learning and growing and there's a there's a whole conversation to be had about art so let me take us into the the other part because we're gonna we are now gonna run out of time um first love the clarity love the model as bo's been describing you've really put the work in and you explain it really well and it's going and i want to know but this is not my question i want to know how are you manifesting this is there an app for this i mean seriously you could probably do great business with a self-diagnostic coaching app that takes people through this at their own pace think saw a con academy for creativity um in what you're doing with some videos and some other stuff i can i can easily envision that as being a useful profitable thing um the and then i'm going to make i think my suggestion is maybe your next book or somebody's next book to complement what you've done because i love what you've done but it feels like what you've done is the light side i don't mean lightweight i mean the bright optimistic side of creativity and there is this gigantic dark side i mean i collect biographies of famous creative people because most of them are trying to overcome unresolved childhood trauma most of them are trying to prove themselves their parents or were abused as children or whatever and look at the north american abstract artists look at your average poet some of the great novelists the the demons in their lives were what pushed them way beyond what ordinary mortals were doing or competition with others or anybody who who was really pioneering the next new thing which a hundred years later we're like well of course then impressive impressionism shows up our salons hated the impression hated them they were ostracized they were criticized they weren't paying any money nothing you know so so every innovator of the next new creative thing is is like really unpopular for a while until they're the person until they're the popular one which unfortunately for a lot of people happens well after they're dead so i also have a presentation i did a long ago i called dark innovation he said you know who thinks lawyers are creative lawyers are incredibly creative because they've passed legislation to prevent things from happening around over protecting intellectual property around a whole series of things like like there's creativity being used in very underhanded ways all the time as well and i think the names and the forces of that i can start as i was watching what you were showing us i'm like oh crap there's this sort of complementary dark side to backside of the coin which is also fueling creativity and innovation not always with good intent or for good purpose but sometimes with remarkable results that we think of as the best art and the best creations in our culture right and so so there's this i have this very torn one of my more cynical theories is that is that it takes personal trauma to achieve great creativity that if you had a great level headed childhood raised by lovely parents and followed a normal path into you preserve your original childlike creativity and you managed to grow up and have a normal life would you be able to achieve the kinds of you know the high levels of art that we've seen people do i don't know because maybe it requires obsession to get there and maybe i'm also making a distinction between like some top level of freakish creativity and your the rest of creativity i don't know is that where you're going bow yeah i'm you're doing there's a cult of creativity i think you're addressing and which is like it's a dark thing i'm i don't know i'm a little i'm not in an entirely agreement with you my friend good i think i'm kind of also be should be provocative here i really like serenity like help everyone realize that they're all creative and they're all there and by the way please don't see trauma in a binary well those of us who went through it can also be very thankful for it as i am i mean i i see the world and it's in a brighter i see i see it in colors and brightness that i think that people may have normal childhoods no we'll never see i mean it may be considered a gift let's think of you know and and uh just as a side note um in in my thinking about community formation i think true community i'm borrowing here from scott peck true community mostly happens after a crisis that community that thinks it's in community but it hasn't really been through the grind somehow probably would leave if push came to shove so so it's difficulty it's it's a little bit like a good perfume starts with a really smelly base note right uh ambergris or something a musk or something like woof thank god we covered that over but that that's what makes the really good perfume so so sorry that was many things at once sarah and and i want to emphasize how much i love what you've created i'm just like wow is there a second work here behind the curtain yeah i mean i think part of what an sd is dying to jump in acknowledging and i think is really critical to acknowledge is that there is this fantasy um which is fueled in part by the industry that's grown up around that that piece that getting more creative industry around creativity as self-realization that suggests that that creativity is meant to be effortless that it's about effortless flow when in fact it is incredibly challenge what it is is it's the challenges that we are built to withstand right and so and it is by withstanding those challenges and moving through them that we evolve ourselves and so people who have in early life or at any point significant challenges it is the it is the the um the the skills the muscles the the capacities that are built in in um addressing those challenges that make uh that evolve us that that make us able to create and so it is there is a relationship between challenge and creating and and effort and creating you know that it is um i think that we some of the ways we've gone off track in terms of understanding this are are the notion of effortlessness but also that notion of that we do our children a favor if we if we instead of saying you know if we we ask we constantly ask them what their passion is partly because of this singularity of that but partly because of the notion that um that you're supposed to find it and that it's that it's then uh never going to change uh and and so the notion of that through heading into a passion meeting the challenges of that passion is going to grow you into a person who might be ready for a different kind of challenge you know and that over time what happens i think in in sort of our maturing is that we come from we move from a sort of simplistic understanding of ourselves through this kind of complexity of all of the capacities or drives or interests or you know that are within us all of our creating modes and out the other side is something that can feel actually very simple it's a kind of integrated um you know sense of uh of of how the parts fit together as opposed to understanding ourselves as a series of fragments there's a poem i love that has the phrase that our intricate wholeness that i think is you know what i'm sort of driving at here and part of it too is that i am a very sort of optimistic i mean i you know i'm sort of driving toward the positive all the time but but the but the truth is of course that that the kind of challenge and effort involved is not um to be underestimated can i jump please s t you're dying to i yeah so one of the things that i see i saw the conversation going into was a kind of assumption that one is one of these mode types right oh jerry's the connector releaser oh i'm a manifestor right and part of the power of this and the truthiness of this work is that no one is in one sector your creativities right pop up in some ways in the strangest places at least and so for me the first time i heard sarah talk about her work the first thing she said was the void which was the notion of that changed everything for me i i had experienced several cycles of writing this book i've been working on and each time i got to the void it was it was a failure i mean i had failed yet again and then i sort of picked myself up and kept going but there was this sense of accruing failure that the void took took away the second thing was to realize that all of these things that are basically my social competencies or my you know ways of being in the world that that were relational but the first word that came to me was social that i'd never in my life right thought of as as creativity right and i i urge everyone to sort of in using whichever of sarah's tools works for you to kind of do that give yourself that opportunity to sort of see yourself in this you know cluster of of of creativities and then to do to take it the next step which is to have someone you love or collaborate with deeply love and collaborate with deeply right so another big moment in my um uh onboarding this work and becoming you know helped me to sarah is amongst my identities right is having my husband use the car deck in this case and then sharing my constellation map and his with sarah who have not met him had not heard much about him at that point who made such astounding observations about how his world works and mine and the fact that they are very different and my world isn't even on his map right quite literally so um and so this is kind of an urge for not going into next books or dark sites like that there's enough dark in the void and there's enough dark in all the difficulty of everyday dealing with others and systems that behave right not as expected because that's the way the world is like we don't have to go looking for the dark side it shows up every day big and small let me just say that thus the next book i mean not that the first book exists yet but in the grand scheme of things the next book is actually one as i've thought of it called the five crises of creating because i do think that that in addition to the void every time there are these spaces between each of those um each of those four spaces within the cycle liminal spaces threshold places what's that liminal threshold whatever yeah there are these threshold places where as you move from the void into generation there is a crisis place as you move from generation into manifestation there is a crisis place as you move from manifestation into release and connection there is a massive uh uh uh sort of crisis place and each of them requires you to withstand different type of fear and challenge and you know so i think that um it is a different way of thinking about it than what what you were you know kind of raising jerry in terms of of um sort of the the the way in which we we can create great things out of response to real darkness uh but i i do think that that is my impulse too to sort of do go further in in terms of addressing really what we're talking about here in terms of what is required of us as human beings um you know walking through this this cycle that it and that's why all those caveat sides you know it's like we're not just zipping around this you know this cycle like a record writing a record player you know um that there's there's there's this uh real uh challenge exactly thank you one more thing go ahead i think sara you called it the fern today right what i think of is the the fractal nature of does everyone have in their mind the image it's the green plant right that's right um uh so not only are you going through space up right but it's like a journey in each of us you know i i know pieces though i know i think i have a a less sense of you in but of everybody else here of our journeys right over our and and these like i don't know what those round things are called right but you have multiple of them and they're all still alive and growing and part of the dealing with uh with the shit that happens is to be able to kind of shift from one to the other to recognize well if i can't do if this is this is shut down for the moment but there's this piece of it and that and they're all happening so um again a plea for this the the the the the multiple simultaneous levels of of us as as social animals right um and uh and then last thing because i always have to do my little bit of work as as the representative of of uh gender right is you know liz gilbert uh book big magic um liz gilbert being she who wrote ypres love and has been a celebrity writer ever since is all about the fact that pain the assumption that pain great pain goes with great art and that great trauma which leads to great pain leads to great art is really suspect right and in some ways is an embodiment of the hero journey right and the marginalization of creativity up in the clouds there where you know where else would you put people with who are incapacitated towards the right anyway um so if we can um um embrace the pain of of the void and the challenges in between right without i don't know anyway um i felt i have felt incredibly literally empowered to keep going right by sarah's observations of other humans right um it just feels so real and right um her her her not only her speaking and drawing but the actual nature of these of these modes so that's sorry sorry that was wonderful leslie thank you i i don't know how to make a better note heroes journey down because the toxic one-sided patriarchal mess of bullshit that it is so just can i i i was in a coffee shop the other day talking i have a loud speaking voice and i was talking with my sister and at the next table was a man with his laptop who was overhearing what we're saying and something we were talking about prompted him to as he closed his laptop stand up and say to me you know i'm a i'm a real serious writer and um one of my sadnesses in life is that i have these children who are now adult children who um who i really wasn't able because i'm a real serious writer i really wasn't able to give them you know the the love and care that i would have liked to and i thought you know that is a very specific way of apprehending what it means to be a real serious creator right which is to say it's this thing that is separate from one's relationships uh to one's children and to the to the larger world and that um and so i suggested to him that that perhaps those perhaps he actually part of his sadness was that he was wanting to create in both ways and only could allow himself to create in the one or he wasn't meeting his own definition of what it meant to be real and serious about the what what he what it meant to him to be an art maker and so if i think it's you know this is gets to that gendered uh conversation that what women have had to do uh out of life circumstances is to figure out what it means to be a real serious creator and be interruptible and be giving care to others and be uh you know tending to esti if only somebody had thought about what this means and what to call it exactly sorry sarah yeah you interrupted sarah jerry i know i couldn't help but i saw esti just beaming yeah but we're all connected and and sarah that was yeah right i mean i think that you know bo was saying like your mission you know part of my mission is just to sort of interrupt these narratives about what it means to be a real whatever but also if we're all if it's something we're all part of then let's own our part of it our multiple parts of it and let's let's understand the dynamics of what that calls from us so that we can we can we can contribute most fully from you know from the array of things that we're capable of as opposed to you know having these narratives that say in order to be successful or to be whatever to register as serious you must reduce your life to the one thing um that doesn't feel real to me or to the experiences of the people that i know and observe yeah sir could you address something i i think i i'm indicating i called the hero's journey bullshit but what i mean about the hero's journey it's a very one-sided thing it's like taking a piece of your model and saying this piece over here is the only valuable part there's no other way to be a contributor in the world unless you're a warrior that's so would you speak that so i want to make it clear that i don't think there's no value in the hero's journey i just think it's a very one-sided way yeah i mean i i think you're i think you're saying it i mean i think it is that it is it is placing the sort of primacy on the narrative of you know individual conquering you know a sequence of challenges that you know through you know through which they by defeating them you know they they become the the hero and um and the the counter to that that's sort of embedded in this in this model is that we are all these interconnected nodes who are as we evolve ourselves as we meet the challenges we are making we are changing you know and evolving moving the world forward and that it's so so that ultimately our journeys you know individually are part of something that's so much larger um and and that and that our journeys aren't just our journeys in the first place right that that that we are part of one another's journeys um and so you know what it means to be heroic in that context is really i think about shifting in mindset from to a different model of of heroism which is really about am i um have i grappled with the complexity of of who i am and of the world that i find myself in and have i done the hard work of finding those places where um the what the world is calling for you know meet up with what my inner needs are and and and moving from there and that's you know that that is a journey right that's those are hard quest those are really hard questions that we spend lifetimes wrestling with on and off it's um this may just reveal my lack of literacy on that hero's journey and so forth but i've interpreted it um very much as the kinds of initiation or forging that i was talking about earlier in community formation so i for me it's not about slaying the cyclops and avoiding the sirens for me it was about overcoming your demons and being alone and being resourceful and figuring out how you connect to your story into the world in a different way so that you can come back into your place in society changed and better and ready for stuff so i so i've i've i've kind of ignored the trappings of combat and male overcoming you know killing things part of the the hero's journey and and i'm very aware of the lack of initiation and the lack of bringing young people up into society that's happened we've we've shredded all the forms that we had to bring young people i mean there's still bar mitzvahs and bat mitzvahs that that's a form of initiation right but but most other cultures don't have uh this kind of thing and and i think that without it we end up missing uh parts of our lives we end up missing entrance into adulthood we end up missing unity being being introduced properly being reintroduced properly into a community that knew us as children and that is now going to know us and help us as adults and so all of that factors in for me so i'm not i'm not as big a hater of the hero's journey as you are bow i hate the distortion of it uh me too sarah has addressed everything we're talking about it's about being in the world in relation with other people yeah and also the questiness of it and the fact that the here you it's not hard to find quotes from cultural heavyweights saying that there's really only one plot only one narrative and it's the hero's journey that's true it gets overloaded speaking of singularity what this is yeah one plot the story singularity yeah great and and let me i just wanted one thing because it's easy when we talk about being in relationship to to really make it always primarily about relationship to other people and of course that is vital it is also relationship to the natural world it is also relationship to ideas to things to you know to um and to our own inner lives and so you know i think it is also um uh when we when we think about relationality you know there are there are very different ways of being in relationship to the world and and some of that is interpersonal human relationships and there are many other relationships that we're engaged in um as creators i think so i think that's you know another important caveat in the picture you are relentlessly committed to identifying and staying in touch with the multiplicity i love that sarah bravo yeah you're not gonna let the world get reduced for us we're all multiples we're all multiple cells inside ourselves we all are so i'm a famous poet say that we are multiples i contain multitudes that's it that's it i have in one version of my presentation i have that image of you know it's like this is true but it's really hard at a cocktail party to introduce yourself as someone who contains multitudes you know people would really like to know like what does that add up to like what am i gonna hold on to here you know and so that is partly why it's it's nice to have a version of a version of multiplicity that is not chaos but is pattern yeah um and you know that's what a constellation gives us oh that sounds like a good good note to close on we have gone well over time we may not have the hour tyranny but we certainly have like the 90 minute tyranny more or less it's a it's a it's a friendly dictatorship so Todd and esti thank you for bringing sarah to rex to our group we really appreciate it a lot it's been a great journey sarah thank you for what you've invented and how you framed it and how you phrased it and how you brought it in front of us that's been it's been really enlightening and i look forward to more more conversations like this so so thank you very much thanks everybody thank you for having me and for the great questions and sharing and thinking together and we can order your cards on the site right what are the resources how can we get them you could except i'm in this gap between the old version and the new version and so the new so give me some time and i'll let you know through you know this through esti and Todd when the new cards are available because i'm not producing the old ones the old deck anymore um so i'm sorry it's it's not good timing in that respect but um but if you want them sooner than later i can i can provide you with a set of slides that do the same oh cool just you're in the you're in the cardboard tangibly yeah so do we have her contact we have sero's email jerry yes it was copied on the invite and i'll uh i'll continue doing that okay exactly thanks everybody thank you thank you thank you bye bye bye jerry bye