 Just yeah, just be yourselves, be your fantastic selves, okay? I think we're kind of we're getting ready to gear up for the broadcast so if we could have our panelists for today Come on down You guys can hear me right I don't need We can do Well, good afternoon everyone my name is Eliza bent I'll be moderating the panel in pursuit of a dark euphoria um Since we're broadcasting today It was encouraged that I introduce each of our panelists with a full bio So I'm going to quickly move through their bios before we get to the questions So to my left here is David Newman He is the artistic director of advanced beginner group and his work has been presented in New York City at the kitchen ps122 dance theater workshop Central Park summer stage and symphony space These are all very important fancy locations in case you didn't know Also, though the Walker Center in Minneapolis Jacob's Pillow Dance Festival in Massachusetts The Maggie Alice see Alice see National Center for choreography among among many others As a choreographer he most recently worked on Robert Woodruff's adaptation of fast benders in a year with 13 moons at Yale Rep and David Newman is also currently on the faculty for the theater department at Sarah Lawrence College. So David. Thank you for joining us Thank you Sybil Kemp's in Over here in the green Is a playwright Living in New York City her work has been presented at New York live arts the chocolate factory in New York City Dixon plays Soho rep ps122 little theater brick theater and the fuse box festival in Austin, Texas She's also had work here at the Great Plains Theater Conference and the Walker Art Center in Minneapolis some current collaborations that she's working on is a Piece with elevator repair service called fondly Collette Richard Richland Big dance theater and Sybil collaborated on a piece called Ich Kürbis Geist. I hope I said that correctly Danke Sybil And also Sybil and David worked together on a piece Restless I and that was at dance theater workshop slash New York live arts. It's always a curious title and one another big collaboration civil is at the helm of is River of gruel pile of pigs the requisite gestures of narrow approach and that's with a group in Austin Between the Rude Mechs and salvage vanguard theater So thank you Sybil welcome Happy to have you on the panel and last but not least we have Justin Townsend at the far end in the white t-shirt and Justin Is a as a recent drama desk winner Congratulations Justin Justin is a lighting designer and his design has appeared on Broadway Including Vanya Sonya Masha and Spike the other place bloody bloody Andrew Jackson. He's also worked on some New York shows That have been off Broadway such as here lies love currently running at the public theater Juan and John at the public Galileo and unnatural acts milk like sugar at playwrights horizons Luck of the Irish and on the levy at Lincoln Center 3 Regionally Justin's work has appeared at the Arden Alliance ART Bard skate Bard summer scape Boston court Baltimore Center stage among many other notable regional Locations, okay, well then and I'm Eliza bent. I'm not just a Joe Schmo that they pulled off the street I'm a journalist for American theater magazine as well as a performer and a playwright Anyhow moving on let's get to the questions of the dark euphoria. So I think it's it's interesting to Think of the description of today's panel, which is a new Wildness in imagination form Collaboration rehearsal and production and the spatial challenges that this work brings Just so that we're all on the same page here about what this panel really is I'd love to maybe just start with defining our terms what in in your Minds is a dark euphoria and how are you pursuing it? Feel free to take a liberal stab at that We were saying last night it sounds like a rum drink I'd like to use it as a drag name No, well, it is about a little bit about collaboration know the wildness of Collaborating how we can wildly collaborate. I kept reading wildness as wilderness. So what are what are your takes on? Collaboration in today. I mean civil you have a ton of collaborations happening at the moment. Maybe you could kick things off Yeah, I think for me it's about resisting organ is Resisting not organizations like institutions, although it's good to resist those two to a certain extent But to resist overorganizing stuff I Guess It Whenever I'm writing something and a lot of times when I've performed if I've been performing something. I am looking for ways of Problematizing of making problems where problems may or may not already exist and so In the collaborations that I'm doing I guess across the board if there's anything they're all very different But across the board, I think the thing that I'm really trying to Keep in tact is is a sort of lack of organization and So that in in some of the projects that the roles that Pete like Like the Austin project that I'm working on. I was gonna ask about that. Yeah, okay So we worked we've been working on it for I think two or three years Now and for the first year and a half We we the only thing that had been established would be that was that I would be the one that would be at the computer writing Stuff down and what and that I would be generating the text, but I also even opened that up so that ideas and thoughts and Good and bad and input associations image images and different connections between And among material I was bringing in So that was open to everybody and we didn't have someone who said I'm gonna step up and be the director I'm gonna be the producer. I'm gonna design the costumes and then that we called it a pig pile and Many organizations are in this pig pile There are representatives from four different theater groups in the in the city of Austin and they they they've They've worked a lot as individuals together on each other's work But they'd never come together before to make a piece together. So there are four different ways of working. So like the Rude Mechs They have I think four or five main Original members and and with every show they make and every decision that they make in every single one of those shows They must come to consensus So it's not even Democratic where the majority rules they must arrive at consensus and that's right down to the writing and then Salvage Vanguard Theater is more they'll have guests artists and guest shows come in But they they establish what the what the they'll they'll work within a hierarchical Structure, so there'll be a director and then there's a stage manager and actors and and it goes from there Rubber rep is a partnership of two guys and they collaborate together sort of as one Really crazy organism and then they they bring people in to collaborate with them and physical plant is Steve Moore's And that's that he he's it's mostly he's at the nucleus of it And then he brings in collaborators around them so we sort of found our own way of working and And allowed it to emerge and so that so that the decisions that were being made we were really working to Be very patient and let those decisions sort of make themselves so that When it was time to choose roles the roles had already sort of started to happen on their own and it's it's a confusing way to work It can be really frustrating And it takes a lot of patience and trust But but I think it and and we're still not finished the piece that we've made we're still working on it's very confusing We put it all together for the first time at the fuse box festival this year And some people loved it and some people just felt really lost including myself Which and I felt both and so we have another year now to work on it and And now roles are established who's doing what is more or less established So we'll be able to sort of shape it and and and either give it Like an exoskeleton or a frame or or find something that holds the whole thing together Through the middle, but really working to allow that to come forward on its own rather than deciding ahead of time and imposing imposing that upon it There's whatever's darkly euphoric about that I I Agree I agree with that the idea about Walking into a process Without a predetermined Result, I think it's an important part of a lot of this work how this work is made Pardon my voice and the other word I was gonna bring up is is hierarchy Another thing that's resisted is that our traditional hierarchies that so that the conversation in an effort to make a conversation a little more richer and and and even less predictable What was a project that you were recently involved in where the hierarchy was? non-traditional or Well, I mean I I think for restless I for instance I that was the piece you did with civil with civil and another important collaborator on that was tableau who is a sound designer and did video projections and It was an interesting process. Although the piece was initiated by me and I was I sort of Was at the helm in that way as a director and a choreographer The way that we worked, I mean, I know that civil would respond to she would sit in the room and watch rehearsal and respond to some of the things that were being made and Would send writing and response and then that would inspire me to change what I had made and and in those ways those conversations We really lost the clear defined boundaries of who made what and who was responsible for what And this and the designer like the lighting designer was involved equally also Schellenberg exactly Yeah, she brought in a very important element That come that really radically changed the way the piece was being staged We were using these this these things called the Neuro sky Scanners I guess and they take they read the brainwaves And she found a way to take that information and and have it affect the lighting So that so that the brainwaves of the performers were affecting the intensity of the lighting and even the direction of One of the intelligent lights where it was based on the stage. So that was a stochastic as sort of a random kind of Event was happening while the piece was going on Is that then part of the the the darkness question the lack of ownership is that is that sort of what the into the darkness is The Wildness the is that is it the releasing of that is that is that what is it important in that in that conversation? I Would think because it's it's the part that the part that isn't organized the part that isn't predictable and so and that that confusion that You have to sort of go into when things Aren't as organized and when you have a hierarchy It's it's really simple and in a lot of ways it's easier because everyone knows what their role is and they know they have a job And it's really defined But then like like working on David's piece I had a really crazy idea about a sound thing and I said well, I'm just I know this isn't what I'm supposed to Be doing I'm supposed to be writing You know written text and so but I ended up working on this sound piece anyway And it ended up getting used in in the piece which wouldn't have happened if in a regular situation You're not the sound designer, you know, and of course, I did a terrible job Consider that but but but but then how does it happen? I mean, you know the question then and I think We have our own ideas, but I'm curious to share is is how then if we all can do whatever the heck we want isn't it great Well, then where is the there there? How do we eventually come to this consensus or how does it actually merit into something that we want to put in front of our Peers and say hey, what do you think we actually made something? You know I would like how has it worked in your experience Justin? You know collaboration for me is a funny thing, right? I'm always amazed by the root mechanicals to hear about them say yeah, we all we all circle our hands and say yes We agree, and I'm sure that's not what happens But to some degree about that We we've I've been in situation where best idea rules and then we sort of know the sort of the Ouija board of Idea making sort of called we know you're pushing you're pushing But as soon as it the group starts moving that direction we can call out yes indeed or ask again perhaps So I Mostly trust putting it up on stage and testing it That we can sit here for days and talk about all of our lovely staging ideas And I want to write a play about or I want to I want to do this thing But until civil brings in the lousy sound cue that that's earth shattering that no one ever thought about that We're all sort of having lovely ideas And so it's that action and I'm always curious what manifests that action what manifests that how do we get to the I was just thinking about this sound thing. So I brought it, you know And who knows if it's good or not or our teammates can have it, but what manifests that initial impulse What is that taste or that that that that that this is what I want This is how I get to and that's what I'm sort of interested in pursuing or chasing is identifying That spark that unique spark as opposed to I like red. Well, we all like red. Okay. Yeah, I think it's I think it's like I think it's very Impulsive and and it's it's one of those things where I I feel like this belongs here And I don't know why but I it just is right here for some reason and I feel that I could be wrong so you're approaching with sort of You're laying something out on the table and saying this feels right to me What does this feel like to you guys and then you try it right? Because that's one of the first rules of collaboration is somebody brings in an idea You don't poo poo it until you try it and then if it feels right to everybody else then you keep it And if it doesn't then you talk about well, where did that come from and but um, I've been okay So I've been reading I've been reading for a long time a lot about It's originative but a lot about chaos theory in physics and it's the part of physics that they you know they started looking at in the 70s where and they're looking at stuff like turbulence and Stuff that can't be measured that physicists have traditionally just sort of swept under the carpet because they can measure it But why bother because we can't predict or control Turbulence so why should you know, why why would we mess around so they really started looking at it? And and there's a couple of physicists that are writing that have been writing like in the last 10 or 15 years and They've also done a lot of work with Native American cultures interestingly enough to find where where our Recent advances in modern physics intersect with the Native American worldview and it's actually really surprising they're coming at it from Completely different directions, but in a lot of cases. They're coming to the same conclusions And so they talk about the patterns that are implicit in nature and the way The way things are made however you however we you know subjectively feel that that happens that there are patterns at work And there's patterns at work in behavior of groups of human beings that Are disorganized that we that aren't easily predictable and that aren't controllable And it's the kind of thing that happens when children are playing together They don't always make rules and say you're gonna be the boss and we're gonna follow you and they're not they're not deciding ahead of time But they're making action like creative decisions and somehow it's it finds they call it There's a point of bifurcation and amplification. That's the point where somebody one person starts just doing something and then Other people start gathering around that action. It's not even a decision It's it's or maybe it is you decide to start doing this But it's not based on a committee that decided this is what we're going to do So you just start doing something and then others gather around it and then it They're not really sure how it happens, but suddenly it's happening. It's like the hundredth monkey all of a sudden everybody's doing it And so they're not really sure why or how but that's what I'm interested in and I guess if we're talking about the dark euphoria This this sort of dicey area where stuff happens that we don't decide ahead of time for me I do it's just about like stepping back and saying I'm gonna allow something to happen here and Inevitably it does Something happens whether it's in time for your deadline or not is another question Like we got done with that breathless eyepiece and we were talking the other day It was like the show having the production sort of ruined our research. It was like shut it down shut down our process Peter Cassander a colleague that says he calls it a heavily researched gut instinct and I like that that combination That idea that that we have to be of the most knowledgeable to trust that something will come up Yeah, it's and also this notion about the way that children play and studying the ways in which children play I when I'm not a journalist I Perform with a group called half straddle and we're a company we're an ensemble and we have a very peculiar way of going About business and often it resembles Somebody telling somebody else how to say a line and we'll know why don't you stand over there? And then somebody kind of fooling around and doing a weird gesture and then the weird gesture gets put into the play somehow And it it ultimately feels a bit like like we're messing around and we're in somebody's basement and we're 13 So but something ends up happening I mean I've seen those shows Oh, so much happening that couldn't happen if someone said if someone tried to envision what would happen ahead of time Yeah, well, I guess maybe that leads to my next question and we've kind of touched on this But what in your opinions do you feel is is essential about collaboration? I mean obviously hierarchies work well There's a reason why why these hierarchies usually exist with or maybe not even usually but sometimes exist with director play Right actor So what do you feel theater gains when you collaborate in this in this? Darkly euphoric way For me, I do trust a little bit of hierarchy and I like when the baton gets tossed Past I don't think it needs to be only one person and I know I work because I worry I do I worry I worry about mobs of people telling me what the right answer is Inherently so the idea that that we can with it that there might be someone who says no, this is the right idea Even if it isn't the person we traditionally know I Respect and excited by Because I do think there needs to be something brought to the table that when work is being made Sometimes we just sprint one direction and that may be enough to initiate initiate something. I Really just personally for me. I just love the feeling of having made something and Feeling like I can't take credit for it for some reason that feeling is so satisfying to me And I often feel like it's like that will be the thing that saves me from going to hell or something That I can't like that. I won't be the one taking credit for all of the stuff that I've made But it that's very personal so I what is what is there to be gained? I that's that's an open question I think that's a question everyone would answer for themselves like whether it's their thing or not I don't think it's for everybody. It can be really frustrating to work that way And it can be really frustrating to see the stuff that's made that way for some folks and for some some folks really love it so and I think it depends on the The type of work one is after I think this process Leads to a certain kind of work and I enjoy the collaborative process because of the Because of the rehearsal process itself the way that Authorship is shared and and the kind of permission that brings to the room everyone gets gets a chance the brain trust grows then and And with time that the the decision making gets a little more specific with experience. It's like an improv group You you know in the dance world To improvise with a group of people seems sort of you can just do it But actually the most effective kinds of improvisations require months and months of rehearsal And it is it is also related to play I I you know I love Making theater and I want to have fun doing it and so this is a way of working with colleagues and friends that Who inspire me that and we can have a great time in a way that just not just fun like a frivolous sense, but like rich enriching fun Well My mind is spinning. I'm sure everyone in the group also has some questions that they'd like to ask Shall we open it up to the quite Boston Christopher has a question But we're recording So what I'm curious about is how after going through sort of the dark euphoria That you might take the same Approach in a collaboration. I think Justin was touching on this a little bit maybe but in terms of like how you would then apply that to The more traditional structure and can you apply those same rules or at least open up that sort of You know release some of the pressure of that using some of these skills and have you been able to do that and Maybe an example of how that might have worked in terms of the way people think I would say Right off the bat I think it's very possible inside of a more traditional hierarchal structure for these These dynamics to exist and I think it does depend on the people in the room The the producing organization or institution that can allow That kind of dialogue and I think more and more People are moving in that direction. I recently worked with the director Robert Woodruff at Yale rep and It's pretty amazing that a regional theater would give a ton of money based on a Fossbender film a very dark brutal piece of work and You know, it was an enormous production and the way that Robert worked is he came in with a lot of really clear ideas He had to it was it was a four-week schedule. So we had to adapt a You know feature length film for the stage And it's just a few weeks. I mean when I worked on restless high was two years two and a half years to develop off and on But what he was able to do is it was create something of that of that nature of the collaborative nature He asked the opinion of just about everyone in the room When about decisions he was making as a director even on the design Customs and set and everything else inside that very rigid rigid hierarchy that with which yell rep works I found that really inspiring I Think as a lighting designer, I try and work very agilely and very quickly It's similar to way an actor might work in the first rehearsals So trying to figure out instead of how to paint the painting that we all will now Think well, that's pretty it rather to how can my work affect the action and participate as a scene partner? So that all of a sudden there's this big energy in the room and it might affect how things move or you know Maybe it's wrong and I turn that off But so that I'm constantly providing and challenging what has already known in the in the hall and moving it into performance So that and you know sometimes people just want to sort of get out of the way and make sure I can see them And that's all right, you know, we do that kind of those kind of play sometimes and sometimes there needs to be an Agile way of looking at What is it? What is the event that we're making and and there is some more momentum to that? And I think that's where I like to be the most is is offering well It could be like this or what about this and and instead of talking about it again putting it up on its feet and saying well Here's a big light through the door. Oh my gosh. Well, now you're entering in over there. It's much better Even though we've been rehearsing it for four weeks the other way That that simply seeing seeing an architecture and seeing time and space happen in front of us Hopefully there's a group of folks that I'm working with who can can can nimbly adjust or say oh Justin get out of the way You're that's weird. I think it could be something as simple as just having more awareness for like if you're in one role Or one job in it in a production Having more awareness and just developing more of a sense of responsibility toward in some way everything that's happening and and that's that's what I've been working on Trying to sort of engender with the elevator repair service project that I'm working on because they're They they make work together, but but there's one guy in charge who really makes the decisions and there's a lot of group generating stuff, but Mostly, you know They're they're they're happen. They're happens like this feeling of passivity that people are being waiting Wait waiting to be told where do I go? How do I do this? What do I do and maybe taking more initiative along along those lines and Maybe opening up awareness to what what is that lighting guy up to and what is this? You know what what are the signs that we are making? What are we saying by? What does this line actually say? What does this mean if I stand this? This close to this actor instead of over here and you know You're you're at the risk of becoming a little bit of a pain in the ass to the director but I think that if you're just bringing questions to the table and an awareness to the table that You're you're you're all and if you're also willing to take on more responsibility for the thinking about what are we What are we saying? What are people signing up for when they come and see this show and starting a dialogue? And that's a that's a small adjustment But I think that that that could be a good way to to bring it into the the regular way of doing it Hello I'm curious about the ways in which you've or some collaborative skills you've developed over time that you may not have had five or ten years ago And what are the areas in which you still have room to grow as a collaborator? What are you working on? Well, I think that's what's so great about doing collaborations that there's always you never become an expert at it there's never like John Collins the the the artistic director of elevator repair service who I've been working with has been getting so mad lately about People are everyone's talking about devised theater. It's the new like latest thing. Everyone's talking about it It's getting all this new funding and all this new recognition And he gets so mad and people start throwing that term around because he feels like by giving it a label like that that we're standardizing it as a way of making theater and he really Is balking against the idea that there could that that is like one way There's that there could be one way of doing it And so I think that you're constantly learning because every time you step into a new group your process is going to be as Different as are the people in this group from the last group that you worked with so it's it's You're constantly learning because you're constantly working with new groups of people or even if you're working with the same group of people A group of people changes over time and so you're adjusting whatever your practice is and your process is With the passage of time and and and with everyone else's development as well So you're constantly having to grow and and expand your thinking and I think mostly I've just learned how to work with people Which is a lot of people don't know how to do that and I think most people theater people do But if you go outside of theater In a lot of cases people have trouble working together and dealing with other people So it's I mean theater in general is good training for that. I think I thought immediately About one thing that I've gotten much better at is listening and one thing that still needs improvement is listening And that's that that really sums it up in a maybe a too cute way But that really is true Yeah, I agree absolutely as a sort of fundamental piece and the other the other response that I keep coming back to is is Improv 101, but but it's a continued reminder of of the yes and the the how can I The most offensive or most upsetting or downright wrong idea. How can I open my heart to it? And and that and that moment I think is when there's sort of grace in the air when we sort of say, okay, let's move And and maybe in a different way that I Expected to and and I find that that's where the the the surprising the surprise turn happens Or the the oh, yes, and then and then it'll allow to the hook back that I was trying to find but until it was those two energies deciding to move together or three or five that starts to Create momentum and I think in the in the individual It's a willingness to let go of your idea as the right idea At like my way is the right way and why won't why won't you guys see it my way and and to be willing to Just really let that go and it's so it's so painful, but it's it's so great when you when you can do it You just be like well, all right, okay It's interesting too because like I I Feel like I work in a fairly collaborative manner But a play of mine that recently had a production in New York I Was amazed one of the actors one day we were talking about an idea the director was kind of describing What what it was that we were going to try and the actor said I know my problem with that idea is and I kind of Blurred it out. I said before you talk about your problem with the idea. Let's try the idea So it's sort of I think that's always sort of an interesting thing and and it's and it's really dealing with with People and the individuals in the room and clearly this particular actor wasn't so used to trying stuff out I guess which was strange, but Anyhow, what are the other questions that people have? Do you guys having worked with a number of different companies? And and around the country and and and having friends and people who are doing different types of darkly report I have been noticed I feel like it's tied to the economy crashing a little bit not a little bit, but a lot and I I've been going to a lot of talks of artists who were making art In the 70s when in New York when times were really tough and talking about the transition from making work in that era to The 1980s when all of a sudden everyone was making a lot of money And how there was so much less interest and art and all of a sudden funding was really scarce and you had to make a piece You know make it already and then they'll tell you whether they're gonna have you at their venue or not and But there's no there's no help to develop the piece and and When I moved to New York, it was the mid 90s and there was a recession happening There was so much great work. It was such a great time to be there and of course there were no like I had a really hard time finding a day job and I didn't have any money, but there was It seemed to be kind of exploding like everyone that I the everything that I went to go see Seemed so rigorous and had so many wonderful ideas behind it and was it everything was like exploding something And then the internet happened and again then it's sort of people were saying this, you know The internet saved our generation, you know from poverty, but I think it also destroyed a lot of the art making that was happening or a lot of the the rigor and the focus of the art making that was happening and There and great work was was more scarce and I watched it happen and then now we've had this economy crash again and It's looks to me like it's the best thing that could have happened at least for the art world and that's kind of across the board because suddenly everything that I'm going to see is an incredible piece of work and And that's in New York, and I don't know I haven't heard a lot of people say that and other Cities that I visited but I've seen it. I've seen it happen and I've also heard about it happen From those artists from from the 70s into the into the 1980s I don't know why I sense a Resurgence of a kind of a DIY approach Right, so I mean, I think that's where that that term devised theater Although that that was around has been around I think for a while, but that sense of I Can't find work or get produced or enter into the traditional Commercial theater, so I'm going to do it myself And I and I get a sense of that happening a lot more now You know I we've heard talked about and I and I before and I think it is something that should be brought up too Though Kevin is to say that I think that as I watch newer generations behind me come behind I I think they're dealing with a lot of student loans that someone has told them they need to have To enter into this business, so I'm really aware of a lot more money or a lot more debt being put on for theatrical education, which means a less nimble generation as they try and figure out how to Pay first for these these expenses and then start to make work. So that's that that's something I'm great I'm aware of and checking as we figure out how how we support our younger artists, too We have a few more minutes One yeah four more minutes Perhaps we have time for one more question Is it on is it on I have a friend who's a songwriter he works with a the guy who does all the musical backup in Nashville And they have a friend who does all the mixing in New Zealand The question is What's the future of collaboration in an internet world in an interconnected world? From your perspective and how do you think it might work in the theater? Well, I recently saw a show sorry to I recently saw a show in in Austin and it was done by a British theater maker but he The it was a very strange performance. It was about 20 minutes long and it was an audience of two So it was almost not even a regular play in a sense But it was an audience of two and the two audience members had to sit facing each other And there were screens in front of our faces and the actor So to speak in in the piece was a man in China who had worked in an Apple computer factory and suffered terribly from the various Factory conditions there and it was sort of his story And it was a sort of back-and-forth narration between The audience listened in these headsets and so you'd hear the British man speaking But then you'd also see the man in China waving on Skype and telling his story and there were subtitles So that was I mean, I think that's part of the future is certainly having like Skyped and teleconferenced performance styles I actually am thrilled in a bizarre way that we have all these technologies because I think it'll be the savior of our business in the sense that Our gathering together in a room and hearing each other Become somehow more important if we spend our days hooked up to these screens And so we may or may not use them and successfully or unsuccessfully I'm not really worried about that but I do know that Gathering gathering in rooms to hear stories will somehow be a strangely unique thing That will be I'm excited about I Know a guy named Whit McLaughlin. He lives in Philadelphia and he has a company called a new paradise laboratories and he He was a teacher of mine when I was in high school and he's still he's still making work But he's been making internet theater and he's talked to me about it a bunch and for some reason I don't I Think I need to be in the room With people and it might be because I live in a place where there's plenty of people that I can be in a room with There's a lot of people living there to work with so I don't need to do internet theater but His argument as is that we have to start making theater Like on Facebook for example because before Facebook gets completely taken over by advertising and marketing and corporate interests that we have to as artists Take hold of it and start making artwork so that it exists so that it stays as a Medium that belongs to everybody so that it doesn't just become about marketing and advertising And so making stuff For Facebook that people are looking at it and they're not really I mean I interpret it as you make something and I'm looking at it and I can't decide what it is I can't easily discern discern what it is what the post is or who the person is or And he's doing crazy things like you go and you get in a different identity And then you show up at a party Wearing this badge and that's like these things the lanyard, but it's not your name It's someone else's name and it's this internet personality that you have Dawn so it becomes like a video game But then they have they'll have like a party and people show up and and it's like a masquerade ball because people know you as this other Person and I don't know what the implications are how that's gonna play out, but that's that's that's one idea Well, that sounds like at the perfect end of a dark euphoria conversation the internet masquerade so Onward pursue it. Thank you everyone Oh