 Welcome everybody back here to the Segal Talks at the Monteney Segal Theater Center from the Graduate Center CUNY in New York City. It's another week of Segal Talks and the virus is taking its toll and the atmosphere is changing, especially here in the United States, also around the world, but things are happening that have a great, great impact on our society and what we do. And before we talk to our guests from France today, who we just welcome, Emmanuel de Marcy Moutaz. Thank you, Emmanuel, for joining us. I would like to say a few words about this really new situation, what we're having now. And as you all know, we had Oscar Eustis here with us on Segal Talks, the director of the Public Theater in New York. He actually had the coronavirus for four or five days earlier and was on the hospital in Brooklyn. And for one day he had to lie in the hallways of the hospital and look at the ceiling and didn't know if he would make it back alive to announce that his public theater is closing. But the public just announced that they are canceling their event. We are one public that's trying to support this great institution. And I would like to read a bit from the, from the statement that's I think of importance and we really would like to mirror this. And they wrote, the murders of George Floyd, Amaut, Abery, Tony McDade and Breonna Taylor have demonstrated in horrific fashion the racism upon which our country was built. We mourn the loss of these black men and women and we are grieved and outraged by their death. Leader is for, by and of the people. Yet it has taken us far too long to proclaim that simple truth, black lives matter. We must stand in solidarity with black artists, black staff members and the black community. We must do more, much more. You have to fight the racism that affects every institution in our country, ours included. We must recognize that this is a time of change and that we have to be part of the change we want to see and we have to live up to our own ideals. So this is an important statement. And we also got another one. We got an Instagram mail today about our Seagal Talks which we announced. I think an actor, I think Ilan Barach said, no one cares about your Seagal Talks right now. People are dying, be part of the conversation about justice in a way, Ilan, of course, is right. It's true, but on the big way, I think it's wrong. We need to care about what's happened in the world. And we have been part of the conversation about justice, the complex histories of freedom and liberties and how theater was part of that struggle and still is. We have listened to our friends and colleagues from Hong Kong talking about the uprising just last Friday from Haiti, Lebanon, Chile, Romania, South Africa, from Burkina Faso, Cameroon. And their struggle of all these artists is also our struggle. And actually America should turn away from isolation, from a nationalism and the idea of what happens here accounts so much more than everywhere else. Because we listen to artists around the world like we're gonna do today with Amanoel, we are even more outraged at the murder of George Floyd. Because we do listen to them. And this is a universal injustice and America is no exception. It should be, but it's not. So for centuries, the black community has suffered in the US and the New York Times wrote today about the black community and the corona dash. She said, not only corona virus kills, so does the racial politics in the US. From for centuries, social and economic inequalities, including poor access to healthcare, discrimination in healthcare settings, greater reliance on public transportation and much higher numbers of jobs in healthcare and service industries and differences in employment. These were all factors where we have a much greater number of COVID-19 disease among people of color. And this is clearly exposing the racist structure we all knew about. But as Richard Chatner has said, it is a nuclear meltdown and the roof has been blown off from the reactor and we are all looking inside and we are seeing structures. This is a time of change. There needs to be change and things will have to change. And we look at the role what theater and arts can do and should play in the real, the symbolic and in the imaginary. And we need to see how artists from other countries are dealing with civil uprising, authoritarian regimes, censorship and killings or with a situation where theater has its place in society where we look up to it. It is important to find out what we can learn from South Africa that turned its country around. What Basil Jones had to say how theater he did under the apartheid regime and how he and they contributed to change. So I'm sorry about the public theater. It's a great institution. They can't have fundraiser and I respect their decision highly that they postponed it out of respect. We all seen the numbers of demonstrators on the streets, the curfews around America, the only cities that are involved. So it is something much bigger than just the current situation and we have to address it. So in all of this, we have a great artist with us today from France, a country that is in the history of theater, a superpower, a country that has given us so much over centuries from the richness and the engagement with life and the way how with theater and history and politics and the art of doing theater has been connected to a country. So welcome Emmanuel de Marcy Mottin. He is a great director. He runs the significant theater de la ville in one way we could say the public theater of this de la ville of the city and he also since many years once what is a legendary festival, the festival d'automne in Paris, a significant festival where theater celebrates the city and the city celebrates theater. We don't have a great festival of theater in that stage in New York City. And one of the ideas of the Segal Talks is maybe to grade back one of these. So Emmanuel, welcome, can you hear us? Where are you and what time is it? Hello, thank you. Okay, I'm in Paris in this moment in Espace-Cardin where you know, in Avenue des Champs-Elysées. That's fantastic. We have with us also, Amanda again, a translator of herself, an actor coming out of the Harvard, TDM, theater drama media program. So she can translate for you. Can you speak in French? You start and I'll speak in French. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. It's because my French is better in my English and I think you have a fantastic language and it's better if I speak French because I can perhaps think more quickly in French. Yeah, we think so. And also we ask you to do it so it's a combination. So welcome to Segal Talks. Emmanuel, what goes through your mind when you hear about this situation in America? When? What goes through your mind? Maybe you can Amanda. Yes, what do you think when you hear the news coming from Espaces? In this moment? Yes, in this moment. In this moment? Yes, it's horrible. It's a situation, unfortunately, that we know. That is to say, it's a situation where we know that the question of inequality remains a major and unsupportable subject. So what I feel is the pain, the deep pain. That's it? Yeah, it's unfortunately a situation that is well known and whose history is known. And it is an unbearable and untenable situation that inequality is. And so I feel pain. And it's a deep pain, unsupportable, because this inequality in the 21st century is inadmissible. And that means there are still behaviors that are worthy of barbarism. So it's a pain that's deep and unbearable because in the 21st century, it means that there are people who are capable of truly barbaric acts. Emmanuel, we seem to have a contrast. I think in France, what we hear as things are opening up again. Is that true? Life is returning? I know we want to talk about that. Yes and no. La question, je pense qu'on a une question qui est européenne aujourd'hui, qu'il faut prendre la mesure de la problématique européenne. So the issue for us today is a European one that needs to be considered from a European angle. Parce que chaque pays va prendre des décisions différentes avec des temporalités différentes. Because each country is going to make different decisions on a different timeline. Et il serait important si nous continuons à défendre une idée de l'Europe, une idée de l'Europe ouverte sur le monde et d'une Europe solidaire, qu'il y ait des accords très rapidement qui puissent être passés. So if we're going to continue to defend an idea of Europe that is both united and open to the world, there are going to have to be decisions that are made together. Donc concrètement aujourd'hui, en France, les théâtres ont le droit d'ouvrir progressivement. Et c'est exactement à partir du 22 juin que à Paris nous pouvons penser à réouvrir les théâtres. So the situation in Paris at the moment is that theaters are cleared to progressively reopen beginning on the 22nd of June. La vie reprend dans les espaces extérieurs puisque les parcs et jardins sont ouverts depuis maintenant 24 heures. So life is coming back to public open spaces. Parks and gardens are now open 24 hours. Et nous voyons toutes les questions que cela pose et que cela risque de poser. Pourquoi les théâtres restent fermés? Pourquoi les jardins sont ouverts? Pourquoi les trains accueillent du public? Donc il y a beaucoup de choses sur lesquelles il faut réussir à être d'accord. So it raises a lot of questions. For example, why are the parks allowed to open but the theaters remain closed, whereas trains are allowed to admit passengers? So these are lots of questions that need to be discussed and that people need to come to an agreement about. Emmanuel, you run one of the great theaters in Paris. Are you worried about the future of your theater? Non, je ne suis pas inquiet pour une grande institution comme le Théâtre de la Ville directement. So no, I'm not worried about a large institution like the Théâtre de la Ville. Je suis, par contre, très inquiet pour tout ce que cette crise sanitaire peut produire aussi comme crise économique et comme crise politique. I am, however, worried what the health crisis will engender in terms of an economic crisis and a political crisis. Donc je n'ai pas peur pour moi ou pour ceux qui travaillent directement avec moi. Mais je suis très inquiet pour tout le reste. Du tissu qui fait la vitalité de la création en France mais aussi en Europe. I'm not worried for myself or for the people who work directly with me. But I'm very worried for the whole fabric that sustains artistic creation in France and in Europe. C'est pourquoi il me semble que la solidarité est la première chose qui doit être mise en place aujourd'hui. So that's why it seems to me that solidarity is the first thing that must be put into place today. The Festival d'Avignon has been cancelled. What are your thoughts about the festival d'automne? Le Festival d'Avignon a été annulé il y a maintenant presque deux mois. Et c'est dommage, c'est très triste. So it's been two months now since the Festival d'Avignon was cancelled. And it's very sad. It's very too bad. Peut-être que d'autres solutions auraient été possibles. Maybe other solutions might have been possible. Puisqu'aujourd'hui les théâtres réouvrent et qu'il y a beaucoup de contradictions. Il y a des grands événements comme le puits du fou en France qui vont être ouverts, c'est-à-dire des rassemblements pour 3000 ou 4000 personnes, presque 5000 personnes. Donc on voit qu'il y a des contradictions déjà en ce moment. So even now there are already some contradictions. There are events that are taking place that are public gatherings that can have 3000, 4000 people even, which are being allowed to go forward. Whereas the events such as the Festival d'Avignon were cancelled. Donc pour continuer sur le Festival d'Avignon, on sait qu'aujourd'hui il y a une volonté d'une reprise économique pour le pays et que c'est toujours cette décision difficile, ce point d'équilibre entre d'un côté l'économie et de l'autre côté la question sanitaire. So to continue with the Festival d'Avignon, there's a real will to generate an economic revival in France at the moment. And so there's always a balance to be struck between observing necessary measures for the health crisis and trying to support economic activity. Donc aujourd'hui c'est important d'être très précis sur la manière de réouvrir les lieux pour arriver justement à construire cette période de l'été, du mois de juin, juillet, août, ces trois mois avant d'arriver sur le Festival d'Avignon. So right now the important thing is to be very precise in terms of detailing measures for reopening through June, July and August before getting to the Festival d'Avignon. Et c'est important that there's a lot of events that can be prepared and worked and that the rehearsals start again very quickly and that the artists and technicians get back to work. So it's very important that the events can be prepared which means that it's absolutely essential for artists to be able to rehearse technicians to be able to get back to work. Et dans ces cas-là, je ne suis pas très inquiet pour l'automne. Pour le Festival d'Automne va de septembre à décembre et je ne suis pas très inquiet. So in that sense I'm not so worried about the Festival d'Automne as it goes from September through December, so. Well this is a wonderful news for all of us to hear that, you know, in a way started earlier in Europe but there are ways to continue even this year. C'est très important que les activités, surtout en Europe, soient engagées avec le maximum d'artistes. Parce que quand on s'habitue à arrêter, c'est toujours difficile de reprendre de manière individuelle et collective. Quand on s'habitue à supprimer des libertés individuelles, c'est toujours difficile de les rendre. Donc le monde de l'art doit s'engager dans un chemin clair. So it's important that the artistic activities begin again in France and in Europe with the maximum number of artists possible because once people become accustomed to not working, once it becomes the norm to have individual liberties taken away, it's very difficult to get them back again. Il y a des grandes questions pour cet automne, pour prolonger sur le festival d'automne. So as for the festival d'automne to continue on with that, there are some major issues at stake. Par exemple, est-ce que les frontières internationales vont être ouvertes puisque le festival d'automne, 40% de la programmation est une programmation internationale extra-européenne? So for example, will international borders be open? So 40% of the programming for the festival d'automne comes from international performers outside of Europe. Ensuite, il y a la programmation européenne. Et nous savons que la circulation européenne, y compris pour des raisons économiques, a été remise en place et sera remise en place progressivement. Mais il faudra assurer le maximum de sécurité sanitaire pour tout le monde. So as for Europe, we know that measures will be put in place, especially for economic reasons, to start opening the borders. But it's important to take a maximum of precautions for health reasons. Donc mon premier devoir est de garantir avec nos équipes le maximum de sécurité sanitaire à tout le monde. So my first duty with my team is to guarantee a maximum of health security for everyone. Mais la sécurité sanitaire n'interdit pas la créativité, l'invention et la nécessité d'ouvrir les relations à tout ce qui est étranger. However, health concerns do not stop the work of artistic creation of imagination and the necessity to enter into contact with people outside of France. Donc c'est très important la relation internationale aujourd'hui. C'est la clé de la suite. So the international relationships are the most important today. It's the key to the future. We in America feel it's a time of change or times have to change. Did corona virus, did it change something in Paris? Did it change something in the way you think about theater? C'est une question difficile. It's a difficult question. Parce que si je suis le plus juste possible dans ma réponse, nous voyons qu'il y a là aussi des contradictions. Because if I'm as accurate as possible with my response, you will see that there are also contradictions there too. D'abord, je dirais en préambule qu'il y a beaucoup de gens qui aiment le changement, mais pour les autres, pas pour eux-mêmes. So first, I'll begin by saying that there are a lot of people who love change, but for other people, not for themselves. Donc beaucoup de gens appellent au changement, mais je ne sais pas très bien si c'est un changement qu'ils veulent pour eux-mêmes et qui n'est pas un changement égoïste. Donc le changement n'est pas un concept définitif. There are lots of calls to change. However, I'm not quite sure whether it's people wanting to change things themselves or whether it's a desire for things to change in a way that will serve them. So the concept of change is not a definitive one. Je vais vous donner quelques exemples. I'll give you a few examples. Quand le théâtre a dû fermer le théâtre de la ville à partir du 13 mars, c'est que nous avons tout arrêté. Nous avons supprimé 84 spectacles différents, pardon, 48 spectacles différents jusqu'au mois de juillet, 48. So for example, when the théâtre de la ville had to close on the 13th of March, they had to cancel 48 performances des spectacles internationaux européens et de danse, de théâtre et de musique. International performances, European performances, théâtre, danse, music. Et alors, nous avons décidé de ne pas trop faire de communication internet et de ne pas trop diffuser de pièces puisque j'ai vu qu'il y avait des pièces partout sur internet. So we decided not to create a very large internet presence or to broadcast pieces on the internet. Because I've seen that there's lots and lots of performances being broadcast on the internet. Mais nous avons fait le choix d'engager 60 comédiens du monde entier. But we made the choice to keep on staff 60 actors from the world over. Et pour pouvoir travailler dans 20 langues différentes. In order to be able to work in 20 different languages. Il y a cinq langues qui viennent du continent africain. Five languages from the African continent. Il y a du mandarin, du hongrois, du polonais, du yedish, de l'arabe. Mandarin, Hungarian, Polish, Arabic. Et des nationalités différentes parmi les acteurs. And different nationalities among the actors. Donc on a eu la nécessité, j'ai ressenti au fond de moi la nécessité de créer une communauté d'artistes et d'acteurs, d'actrices du monde entier. So I felt the need, within the need that I felt was to create a community of international actors and artists. Et alors de créer une proximité entre nous, même si nous ne voyons pas, parce que jamais nous avons fait avec de l'image, toujours avec seulement du son. Et donc de créer une espèce d'intimité entre nous, même si ils ne nous ont jamais vu, ils ne travaillent pas avec du vide, mais avec du son. Et j'ai décidé, alors qu'un artiste pendant trois mois, de ne pas regarder de vidéo et qu'on ne me voit pas et que je ne vois personne. So I decided myself, as an artist, for three months, trois mois, vous avez dit? Mars, enfin mars, avril, mais presque trois mois. Yeah, almost three months, not to watch any videos, not to engage with or see anyone via video. Pour essayer d'écouter, d'entendre autrement les voix, les sons des personnes. In order to try to listen to, to hear differently the sound of these people. Donc par rapport à votre question, pour moi le plus important, c'était de ressentir une écoute et pas de voir, puisque j'avais le sentiment de rentrer dans une période aveugle. So to answer your question, for me, the need that I felt was to feel a sense of listening because I think we're entering a period of blindness. Puisque en grec, le mot théâtre veut dire l'endroit d'où l'on regarde. So in Greek, the word theater means the place from which we look. Et c'est l'étymologie, l'origine du lieu du théâtre. C'est l'endroit où l'on a un point de vue. And so this is the etymology, the origin of the theater, is the place from which we have a perspective. Et si les théâtres sont fermés dans le monde entier, dans le puits de mois de mars, il y a quelque chose alors qui devient aveugle. So if all of the theaters, the world over, have been closed since the month of March, there's something that has become blind. Et au fond de moi-même, je pense que nous sommes rentrés dans un monde aveugle. And in the deepest part of myself, I feel that we have entered a blind world. Alors, il faut pas faire semblant de se regarder. Il vaut mieux essayer de s'écouter. So we shouldn't try to pretend to be seeing one another. It's better to learn how to listen. Pour essayer de savoir si nous sommes capables de rentrer en dialogue. Capables de rentrer dans une autre écoute dans la relation humaine. So to see if we're capable of entering into another type of dialogue, if we're able to have a different type of human relationship. Alors, on a fait le choix d'engager ses 60 comédiens et d'y additionner et d'y ajouter des scientifiques. So we made the decision to hire these 60 actors and to also, in addition, bring in scientific practitioners. Il y a des neurologues, des neuros chirurgiens, des astrophysiciens, des biologistes. So there's neurologists, there's neurosurgeons, there's astrophysicists, there's biologists. Et nous avons inventé, alors, les consultations poétiques par téléphone. And so we invented the concept of poetic consultations by telephone. Et la consultation, c'est un moment où nous écoutons. Les gens s'inscrivent sur le site du théâtre de la ville et nous commençons la consultation en écoutant la personne, en sachant où est-ce qu'elle est, qu'est-ce qu'elle ressent, qu'est-ce qu'il se passe, de quoi elle rêve, qu'est-ce qu'il lui manque. Donc à travers un ensemble de questions, nous pouvons écouter quelqu'un. So the consultations work this way. Someone signs up, registers themselves on the site of the théâtre de la ville and through a certain number of questions, where are you, what's happening for you, what are you thinking, what are you feeling, what are you dreaming about, what do you miss? And we listen. That's how it begins. Et pendant 20 minutes, nous écoutons et au bout de 20 minutes, nous décidons quel est le poème qui nous semble le plus approprié par rapport à notre discussion. So we listen and after 20 minutes, we decide what the poem is that seems the most appropriate for the discussion. Donc depuis le 13 mars, nous avons eu 5000 personnes au téléphone. So since the 13th of March, we've had 5000 people on the telephone. Avec qui nous avez parlé plus 20 minutes et que nous avons écouté surtout. With whom we've spoken for at least 20 minutes, but to whom we have listened most importantly. Et nous avons produit des prescriptions poétiques, des ordonnances poétiques. So we produced poetic prescriptions, medical prescriptions. Oui. Par exemple, le poème que je vais vous prescrire, vous pourriez le lire tous les matins ou le dire à quelqu'un que vous aimez. So for example, the poem that one might receive, a prescription poem, would be something that one could read every morning or could read to somebody that one loves. Vous pouvez marcher dans la rue ou chez vous en vous répétant, les yeux fermés, ce poème, tous les midis et tous les soirs pendant une semaine. So you can walk in the streets reciting the poem to yourself in your heads every lunchtime and evening for many days. Je me suis rendu compte que les 60 acteurs n'avaient jamais dit autant de poèmes de leur vie. Ils n'avaient jamais vécu autant avec de la poésie. I realized that the 60 actors had never recited as much poetry in their lives. They never lived with as much poetic text as in this project. Et ils font, ils ont fait des compte-rendus écrits. Chaque acteur produit un compte-rendu écrit chaque jour de sa consultation. Donc nous avons plus de 5000 petits textes écrits par des acteurs. And so each actor after the consultation would write up a brief about what went on. So then there's 5000 short texts written by all of the actors. Donc par rapport à votre question sur le changement, pour moi c'est un changement. C'est-à-dire d'amener concrètement dans le temps immédiat du Covid une action qui engage un ensemble d'êtres humains avec les mots du poète. So to return to your question of a change, for me this is change to create something in the present moment that has to do, that can only happen because of the Covid situation with people from the entire world bringing them together and using the words of poetry. Nous avons des consultations en Wolof. C'est la langue qui est parlée au Sénégal. So we have consultations in Wolof, which is the language that is spoken in Sénégal. In Lingala. In Lingala. In Lingala, which is in the Democratic Republic of Congo. Bravo. Hmm. In Swahili. In Swahili. Où est-ce que c'est parlé? South Africa. Oui, aussi. And one others. Oui. Mozambique est donc dans toutes les cultures lusophones de l'Afrique, pas seulement francophones ou anglophones. So also lusophone cultures of Africa, so not only francophone areas. Ou anglophones. Donc c'est une façon d'être en lien avec des personnes à des tas d'endroits sur la planète en prenant le temps de les écouter. So it's a way to be in relation with people all over the planet by taking the time to listen to them. Donc par rapport à votre question, pour moi, sans être trop théorique, il y a la nécessité de comprendre comment nous travaillons le temps présent et alors nous allons décider de comment nous travaillons le temps d'avenir. So to address your question without being too theoretical, it was a matter of deciding how to work in the present moment. And that's what will inform how we work in the future. Pour finir, cet exemple, il y a aussi des consultations d'une grande neurosururgienne et qui a été appelée trois fois déjà de New York. C'est tous les vendredis à 17 heures, heure française. So to finish the example, there are consultations with a great, a renowned neurosurgeon who's been called quatre fois, cinq fois, vous avez dit? Je sais qui. Quatre. Four times in New York. Et il y a des acteurs à Taïwan, six comédiens à Taïwan qui font aussi l'exercice avec nous. So there are also six actors in Taiwan who are doing this project with us. Il y a un acteur à la show Buneux à Berlin. Il y a des acteurs en Roumanie. Il y a des acteurs qui appartiennent à plusieurs groupes, à plusieurs théâtres, à plusieurs troupes qui nous ont rejoint. So there's actors from the show Buneux in Berlin, actors from Romania, actors that belong to many different troops that decided to partner with them. Et pour terminer, nous allons continuer. And to sum up, we're going to continue. Et pour rentrer dans la deuxième phase, qui est celle du déconfinement. Et nous allons peut-être opérer un geste artistique avec ses 60 comédiens, mais aussi avec les gens qui ont été consultés avec les médecins. Et je dirais ensuite un mot sur les médecins. So in entering the second phase with the opening of the lockdown, we're conceiving how to make an artistic intervention with these 60 actors and also with the people who were consulted. And he's going to say a word about the doctors. Pour moi, le plus important aujourd'hui, au fond, c'est de comprendre qui est dans la plus grande difficulté. So for me, the most important thing at the moment is to understand who is in the greatest difficulty. Et il y a souvent des difficultés cachées. And there are often hidden difficulties. Si on prend l'exemple médical en France. If you take the medical example in France. On voit que ça a été très difficile pour beaucoup de médecins et pour beaucoup d'infirmières et d'infirmiers cette période. So you see that this period was extremely difficult for many doctors, many nurses. Que le système de santé en France, qui espère être un très bon système de santé, s'est montré très fragile et même très en retard et même très défaillant. So the health care system in France, which is supposed to be an excellent one, actually showed itself to be behind and frail, fragile. C'est fragile. Parce que avec des grands problèmes économiques, parce que des grandes promesses n'ont pas été tenues par le monde politique depuis trois ans. Et que nous avons vu alors que avec un simple virus, il bloquait tout le système sanitaire. So because of its economic problems and because the great promises made in the political world over these past three years haven't been kept. And so a symbol virus was able to block the entire health care system. Et aujourd'hui la solidarité vis-à-vis du monde de l'hôpital, vis-à-vis des infirmières, des infirmiers qui sont des gens, j'en ai rencontré beaucoup qui ne vont quasiment jamais au théâtre. Eh bien nous devons, nous les artistes et nous les grandes institutions, être solidaires du monde de la santé, du monde public, de la santé publique. So right now the important thing is for doctors and nurses who often are people who don't go very much to the theatre, that for, it is for artists and theatre makers to show solidarity with the world of public medicine. Pour ça nous allons mettre en place maintenant la deuxième grande opération cet été et nous continuerons pendant l'automne. Qui est des représentations qui puissent être gratuites pour les infirmières et les infirmières. Qui liait des ateliers qui puissent se passer dans les hôpitaux pour les personnes en fin de vie. Qui liait pour tous ceux qui souffrent de solitude et d'isolement qui ne peuvent voir personne à cause du virus l'engagement des artistes qui doivent être solidaires maintenant. So entering the second phase of this operation, there are several initiatives so providing performances that are free for health care workers doing workshops in hospitals especially for those in end of life bringing support to people who are isolated, who are lonely and it's really for the artistic world to show its solidarity with those working in medicine. Notre pays a été par rapport à votre question affaiblie mais il est profondément modifié aujourd'hui et nous devons avoir un désir de reconstruction pour un monde différent où la pensée solidaire doit être au coeur de notre effort et de nos débats. So to answer your question, France is a country that was weakened but also profoundly changed and so for now the idea is to move forward with the concept of solidarity really at the center in order to imagine and to create to reconstruct in a different way. C'est pour ça que cet automne, ce sera la troisième période puisqu'il y a eu la période du confinement, la période du déconfinement que nous vivons aujourd'hui et l'automne sera la troisième période, la période où nous devrions engager ces grandes relations entre plusieurs secteurs. So this autumn will be the third phase. There was the first phase which was the lockdown, the second phase that we're in now which is the reopening and then this third phase is the time when we'll really have to engage in these actions of solidarity. Nous devrons alors rendre le pouvoir à l'imagination pour incarner des visions qui puissent être convergentes de manière nationale mais internationale avec nos valeurs qui sont celles de la solidarité et de la fraternité. So we'll need to do work of the imagination across sectors and across borders international with these values that are ours which are solidarity and fraternity. Je pense pour terminer sur ce point très complex et très large que c'est le moment de nous réunir ensemble pour construire des voies nouvelles et qui appartiennent à ce que nous défendons profondément du point de vue poétique et que les artistes après les médecins après la santé, la culture a un rôle prioritaire. So to finish with this point which is which is complex now is really the moment where it is our duty after the medical world, after doctors and the health care system. The arts have a primary role in defending these particular values and defending which those of our deepest values. Nous allons commencer concrètement un ensemble de débats, de rencontres et de propositions concrètes à partir du 15 juin. So starting the 15th of June, we're going to start a programme of debates and specific actions starting then. Le premier jour, le 15 sera autour de rencontres que nous organisons avec un journal français qui s'appelle Télérama autour de la santé et de la culture. So the first one will be organised with a French newspaper Télérama that will be a series of talks surrounding medicine. And we will arrive at four proposals at the end of the day. And so we're going to come away with four propositions for proposals at the end of the day. La deuxième journée, le mardi 16 sera autour de la question de l'environnement et de la culture. So the next day will be about the environment and culture. Le troisième jour sera autour de l'économie et de la culture. So the third day will be the economy and culture. Et le quatrième jour sera autour de la science et de la culture pour travailler contre cette séparation entre un monde scientifique et un monde artistique. And the fourth day will be science and culture to work against the separation of the scientific world and the cultural world. Et enfin nous terminons par une grande journée autour de la culture et de l'éducation et autour de cette question de l'éducation artistique et de l'égalité des chances pour tous. So the final day will be wrapping up with the theme of education and culture and the idea of artistic education as well as a quality of opportunity for all. Donc mon rôle, j'estime que mon rôle est d'aider et d'avoir une contribution avec un ensemble de personnes. Avec vous, vous êtes invités avec nous à participer à ce dialogue, à cette co-construction pour essayer de trouver les voies du changement. Mais nous ne pouvons pas les inventer d'un coup de bagnette magique, nous devons les construire. So I consider it my job to work with a whole group of people. With you, you are invited with everyone to come up with new ways forward, ways for change, which of course can't be created by magic wand, but only through a work in concert of many, many voices. Well, really, thank you for that series. And yes, complex answers as the world is so complex. The idea of a socially engaged, poetic, homeopathic poem to audience members, to listen to audience, to see theatre as part of healing of a society of seeing the connections to the health care, to doctors, and also to the science and to think of the context of Europe and the world is exceptional. And I'm impressed by the range and the clarity of plans putting forward. We have not heard that in our talks and it is quite extraordinary. Your theatre has, you have created so many initiatives between arts and science for young artists in Europe and the European context and the global context. So it is truly, I think, a model every theatre can and should look at, you know, and I hope perhaps one day also you collaborate with a public theatre in New York. How did you as a person, as Emmanuel, just how you are an artist, a serious artist, how did you personally experience this time of Corona? How was that for you? It's always difficult for me to talk about a very personal title. It's always difficult for me to talk about myself in a personal way. I try to speak about myself through the works that I do, like being in the stage or through the way of directing a theatre and a great theatre in Paris, a very big festival. I try to speak about myself through the works that I direct or my way of running a large theatre in Paris. But if I try to be sincere and authentic in my response. If I try to be authentic and sincere in my response. I have the feeling that this virus that stops us as humans is an alert, an alert for us. I have the feeling that this virus that has stopped us as human beings is a warning, a warning sign. I feel it physically in this way. in this way. It's as though we had already gone too far that we've been blind in our way of doing things. I often said to myself that if the world had to stop there, if the human being had lost his ability to be on this planet, he would have missed a lot of things. He wouldn't have solved all these issues of injustice, these issues of respect. Everything he tried to defend, he wouldn't have done. He would have talked a lot, but he wouldn't have acted enough. So I kept thinking that if the world, if the time for human beings to be on this planet were to stop, we would not have done all of the things that we intended to do around issues of injustice. We will have talked a lot, but not acted enough. I find that there are many opinions, many polemics even during this period, and not enough firm decisions to say that things can no longer continue in the world of injustice, in the world of violence, that we absolutely have to find a peaceful world, a world that defends the respect of human beings. And finally, I was sad all the time during this period. I found that even in this particular time there were lots of discussions, lots of polemics, but not a lot of decisions being made. And there is so much to do in terms of injustice and violence, that we must find a way to have a peaceful world. And so for much of this time, I've been sad, very sad the whole time. I'll take an example. I didn't understand why they put in France the demands of the people who went on the street, why they had to punish, while they had to explain, they had to take the time to explain well, to educate, to give the possibility to the people to understand, but not the punishment. I also said that I didn't understand why the shops of wine and alcohol were open, while the library was closed. There are inconsistencies, absurdities, which are very common in the world of violence. And so I thought that it would be a good idea to explain and educate them, to give them an opportunity to understand why not that the coherence of absurdities, which are unpleasant. Yeah, so there was some very many unpleasant inconsistencies and absurdities. For example, why were shops that sell wine or alcohol able to remain open, but the bookstores were closed? I don't drink alcohol, I don't like alcohol, I have the right, but why don't I have the right to buy a book? I don't understand. I don't drink alcohol, I don't like alcohol, that's my right, but why don't I have the right to buy a book? So it means that alcohol is part of cultural goods and not books, if I try to understand. So that means then I'm trying to understand it, that alcohol belongs to a kind of public good, but not literature. So I'm trying to understand what's the artistic take away from this moment. So I've been rereading the plays of UNESCO, including one that's not very well known, called Jeux de Massacre, a game of massacre. Les massacres, le jeu pour massacrer. Et UNESCO décrit parfaitement la situation que nous vivons aujourd'hui, à travers l'arrivée d'une épidémie dans une ville. Et UNESCO perfectly describes the moment in which we are living now, with the arrival of an epidemic in a city. Et il ne faut pas y oublier que UNESCO est un auteur binational, il a deux pays, deux langues, la langue romaine et l'exil en France. Et au fond de lui, il souffre beaucoup de la violence des êtres humains et de ce qu'il a vécu en Roumanie en fin. Mais il a la capacité d'avoir le rire et l'imagination et c'est ce qui lui donne sa force et capacité à transcender l'absurdité du réel. En français, je distingue deux mots, le réel et la réalité. Le réel, c'est ce qui existe, le virus est réel. Mais la poésie, c'est ma réalité, ou votre réalité. Le réel, c'est ce qui existe, le virus est réel. Mais la poésie, c'est ma réalité, ou votre réalité. So the real is what exists, the virus, it's real. But poetry is my reality, it's your reality. Et donc c'est ce que nous avons construit, c'est ce qui vient de l'esprit et du corps humain, la réalité. Alors que le réel existe indépendamment de nous. And so that's what we built with our voices and our bodies is the reality. The real is what exists independently of us. Donc le chemin artistique, c'est comment fabriquer une nouvelle réalité qui va même pouvoir devenir une fiction à partir du réel. So the artistic way forward is how to create a new reality in connection with what is real. Donc je relie effectivement Camus aussi, des romans comme la peste ou d'autres grands romans du XVIe siècle qui ont bien montré comment les êtres humains avaient été en prise avec la brutalité des hommes mais aussi la brutalité des virus. So I'm also rereading Camus, the plague of course and then also great novels from the 16th century that show humans at odds with epidemics, with human violence as well as viruses. Et c'est cette balance entre l'équilibre que nous devons mettre en place à travers des actions concrètes avec un nouvel humanisme. Nous devons bâtir un nouvel humanisme qui prend en compte la nature, qui prend en compte les animaux où il n'y a pas une domination de l'homme, de l'espèce humaine, comme on dit, sur le reste de la planète. C'est une absurdité. So this is what we must balance. We need to create a new humanism that includes nature, that includes animals that isn't based on a domination of the natural world that is in harmony with it. Nous avons une chance extraordinaire. C'est ce que j'ai ressenti il y a peu de jours. C'est que nous n'avons pas connu de guerre mondiale depuis 1945. Pour nous, en Europe, we in Europe are very lucky that we have not experienced a world war since 1945. Il y a plein d'endroits dans le monde où il y a des guerres horribles encore. There are lots of places in the world where there are still terrible wars. Il y a des violences à l'intérieur des pays. There's violence within countries, civil violence. Mais cette paix est fragile. Cette paix, elle peut disparaître. Et il faut aider à ce que la paix existe. Pour ça, il faut construire des chemins clairs. The peace experienced in Europe is fragile. It's a peace that can disappear. In order to do that, we have to work to help peace. For that, we need clear paths. Ces chemins clairs ne peuvent être construits que par des nouvelles alliances. Avec le monde de l'éducation. Avec le monde de la santé. Avec le monde de la justice. Il faut aussi allier le monde de la justice et de la culture. Ces nouvelles alliances sont le seul moyen pour construire un chemin. Sinon, nous reproduirons toujours les mêmes erreurs. So these clear paths have to be created through new alliances. With the world of education. With the world of healthcare. Also with the world of law and of justice. Because without that culture has to be allied to those forces. Without that, there isn't a way to create something new. Il faut que nous puissions être plus humbles. Y compris dans notre manière d'être dans tous les lieux de la vie. We have to learn to be more humble including in our way of being in every aspect of life. Moi c'est mon désir en tout cas. Or at least for me that's my desire. J'ai envie d'être plus à l'écoute encore. I like to be more, to listen more. Et pour cela je pense que nous devons nous engager vis-à-vis de la jeunesse. And for that I think we need to become more involved with young people. Nous devons construire des programmes très structurés sur l'art et l'éducation. Sur la fonction transformatrice de l'art au sein de l'éducation. We have to develop very structured programs in education and art. To bring art and the transformative power of art in touch with education. Et peut-être que les années 20 que nous démarrons ensemble dans ce calendrier doit nous amener à une conscience de cette décennie. Et nous ne vont avoir un objectif pour arriver aux années 30. J'avais un projet que j'ai commencé il y a 3 ans et qui aujourd'hui me semble tout à fait évident à construire. So I had a project that I had begun 3 years ago in which today seems about 20 years ago. We called it the 21 project. C'est un projet de connexion entre des artistes dans le monde entier entre des artistes. to continue we called it the 21 projects it's a project of connection between artists in the whole world between theaters to have the possibility of always being linked and to succeed this great theater of nations as we said in the 50s after the first the second world war but this time in the 21st century and we have to bring our institutions to be transformed deeply so it's a project to connect artists throughout the world theaters throughout the world with the goal of establishing this kind of theater of nations that was theorized in the 1950s but this time in the 21st century we have to understand that there is a generation who was born from 2001 that is to say the moment where there was the turn of September 11 and it's the generation who was born for the 21st century so we have to remember that there's a generation that was born in 2001 so just after September 11 and this is the the new generation the 21st century generation it's the human beings born in the 21st century we come from the 20th century and we do the passage of one century to the other our institutions come from centuries past or from the previous century and try to do the passage so they are 21st century people we are 20th century people our institutions come from the 20th century and ideas come from the 20th century and we have to create a bridge with the 21st century this bridge is a bridge between the disciplines is a bridge between generations is a bridge between the beings to create a new way of doing we have to succeed in structuring it together there will be no provisional man no one alone being able to succeed we are not in the 19th century we are in the 21st century so these these bridges have to be built between disciplines between generations we have to work together to find a new way of of working there won't be any kind of provisional man who will arrive it has to be constructed together if this isn't the 19th century this is the 21st century a new dictator disguised as a republican man we don't want to do that we want a more collaborative listening a lot more capacity to understand the big changes in the world and whose money is not the value we have to say that money must no longer be the value and at a time we have to say things so we can't we shouldn't hope for some sort of hero to save us for a new little king or you know as a tiny dictator dressed up in the guise of a republican man but that we need to do it through listening to one another through dialogue and to really to proclaim outright our values that money also is not the value we have to say that clearly we have to understand that we have to limit at one time the excess the financial excess the exchange excess because otherwise we will not build anything positive for the next generation and we will be in a kind of enjoyment of the good and of the immediate possession that will lead to nothing and we have to be much more exemplary today so we have to at some point we have to limit excess financial access commercial access otherwise we're going to move into a period of just a sheer kind of pleasure only in material goods and in personal wealth so now is when we have to set the example for all we defend art for all we defend the accessibility to the works but also the fact that we can practice ourselves to emancipate to have values that are the humanism today in the 21st century that must be reinvented so we and we are for new alliances culture has to have new alliances with people in health care with people in science with people in economics and we're for culture for all which means accessibility yes to cultural works but also the ability of everyone to be a free artistic practitioner and this is how if we work together in this way and defend these values this is how we will create a new kind of humanism for the 21st century which needs to be reinvented this is a this is a significant project and we also time to think about that and it's astonishing that theater plays that role and art in the city of paris and that's how you define your work and it's very different than the american idea of what theater is all about which most of it so highly highly commercial actually it's all about success and the majority of work of course it does provide a lot of jobs and work but the question is what art what is theater about and to this time we are forced to ask these existential questions what do you think theater can do that nobody else can do not the other art forms or the other ends of bridges you are looking for what what is what is theater all about sorry i don't understand the question at the end what is the point what is theater all about um for me it's important to distinguish between two things so with the word theater we're defining we're defining a space within a city that is the the context so this this place as as brecht defined it is what is called a theater or as gutter says what what do i see before me the theater this place it's a place where something sacred can exist so it's a place where we can replay terrible events as in the tragedies of shakespeare and through uh arts brother brother arts as as brecht said dance music we can they all can work together so we can get down to the the closest of the the human element of these experiences and the the question is how is this how do we share this experience uh affective and intellectual uh with the greatest number of people so since the beginning of time there's a there's a primary function an essential function of this place that gathers people together it's a it's a unique experience for someone who's never been to the theater to be able to see and hear and and feel and and see if what is being presented in the theater moves him so and the more the more dematerialized our existence in the world becomes the more fundamental the gathering place of the theater becomes the second second definition is is the theatrical work the dramatic work that can be made anywhere doesn't need a theater so i can do it in the theater at night in the forest at night i can do it on a sidewalk i can gather all the necessary forms to have a troop and an audience and so in that in that sense it's a confrontation between um thought as presented through a theater through theater and and and an audience due to sides looking at each other so works of theater are works of the mind and these works produced characters which are immortal because he understood the eternity of character and he explained it so we will all die or we will disappear but the characters will remain hamlet is waiting for us to produce him for it for him to be uh to be reincarnated once again and tigony waits for the the best actress who hasn't even yet been born but who will one day come to play her so there's an ephemeral quality to our lives and to the theater that we make but the characters are eternal so if one day we go to live on the moon as some americans are dreaming of then hamlet will be played on the moon he's waiting to get on the spaceship if human beings go to mars and tigony will be played on mars so why is this the case because the revolts against injustice of hamlet or antigen is revolts and wanting to claim a burial place for her brother will always be present because there will always be people who are unjust and there will always be a movement of revolt against them so the eternity of the character is a very serious thing they are observing us it is not we who are observing them so we have to be more humble we are fleeting but the characters are there they're waiting they're lying down and they're waiting for our work to bring them standing up again so we lend them our bodies our minds our hearts and our our hands everything but we will perish we have to do the best we can but someone else will always come after us every time and we can hope that that person will do better than we have so we from the beginning of time we're on a path and we're in solidarity because since the dawn of time we have entered into this chain of interpreters of the theater so to sum up the theater it is a question of place of a physical space but also of time and so it's a question as much of works and forms as it as it is of of places and that what that's what makes the force and the strength of theater from the beginning to now voilà pourquoi le théâtre sert à quelque chose yeah and that's why theater serves for something yeah so people have been before us people will come after us we bridge we point and hopefully as you said to the very best we can to to make it a better place to be on the site of justice and and freedoms and liberty something theater I think can be proud of it has been it also has opened up the idea that words can be interpreted that there is not one literal truth that there's no orthodox truth and anyone who tells us there's only one truth they are wrong and they're lying and but I think that idea that we carry on the the mission of mankind and that it's expressed perhaps most beautifully in theater through our timeless ideas that are new for each generation is uh yeah I think you it is it is so very very true what do you say Emmanuel what do you say to an artist in New York young artists people are on the streets now there has been injustice done as hasn't been done to adama trauré in in Paris there has been a killing of george floyd and so many others um do you go and do demonstrations you put yourself at risk that you might get corona do you service help with building mask do you prepare for him what do you think as a twice as an artist to other artists perhaps even emerging what shall we do we artists of theater dance music of of live performance we must never be demagogues we're here for something else besides seduction we have to find another path we have to try to feel the authentic moment in the relationship with another and it's the most difficult thing to try to be authentic with yourself in order to be authentic with another it's imperative to do real work on oneself and not to lie to oneself about our real desires and we have to and we have to accept contradiction including with ourselves so this work it's imperative to do the work on the self so that we can invent create go beyond uh and and surprise it's essential to surprise to find other modes other than what's expected and to bring about in the person who's watching an emotion that um that person couldn't have an unpicked themselves so that that's the first element authenticity with oneself and with the other so and that's something that takes time it's not immediate and so one has to accept to not succeed right away i think it's also important today for artists to defend something that is more peaceful perhaps uh there must be a decision to stop all performances of any kind anytime an individual is killed in an unjustified and unjustifiable manner and unfortunately if that were the case we would stop performing more often than we think so we have to accept being upset uh that human life is extremely precious and not just human life but the whole ensemble of things that belongs to the experience of living and it is is worth preserving and we we cannot continue to fail in dealing with those questions to work for children for more fragile beings for beings who do not yet have another culture who do not have access because they are younger or because they have not had the chance to find the possibility well we have to engage in them the solidarity of the artist today so we also have to accept and to work for children uh with children or with with and for people who who are more fragile than ourselves or who haven't had the same opportunities or experiences uh so the solidarity of artists with uh with these people is is absolutely essential so that they might have access to these kinds of experiences that are so fundamental de faire un autre chemin et tant pis si nous perdons mais il faut pas avoir peur et la règle c'est de ne plus avoir peur mais pour ça il faut considérer que moins nous aurions peur et moins nous développerons de haine parce que c'est ce travail dont parle Camus qui est travaillé contre la peur et contre la haine so i think the the moment of this this virus uh makes it clear that all of us from the youngest child to the oldest person um has to has to try for a new a new way forward we might lose um but we have to try we mustn't be afraid um because it's it's fear that leads to hatred this is the the work that Camus is talking about um to to get rid of to get rid of fear so these are significant um thoughts in most series that wise don't be afraid find a way be authentic and find ways they haven't been traveled yet because it's a new world that is coming as you said it's a easily said um and uh but it is the role of an artist to show these new ways new ways to look at things to make these new connections that are eternal ones that are part of the history of mankind and i think it's important that you point out that the fight against injustice since uh Antigone and Hamlet you know have been with us and um that we continue and they will be there but it is important that on that long way through that complex history of freedom um we can and we'll make contribution really Emmanuel thank you for taking the time this went beyond the one hour we agreed to steal from from your day um in Paris but really um thank you this is very profound um it is serious it is an answer a very clear answer clear answer of what art can do and it's also detailed and it has a strategy and I think it's something we can learn from and also your invitation to New York or the city of New York you know I noticed that of those 60 actors you didn't most probably even had a New York one because they we don't really communicate as much it's such an island such a big one so maybe this is also so maybe this is also something the public or Oscar and I will let him know you know something to to connect to and it might help us to um we invent what we have but continue what always has been done but um I think you're right we have to build bridges and we have to be part of that change we we want to see and we have also changed ourselves it wasn't a tremendous contribution um to our series I'm very honored um that you took the time that to be with us and also for taking that conversation so serious and I think it is important what he said he said he I listen at the moment it's not as much of the visual culture we are out so very much but to listen and and to also um spend time in the shows of other people all while the show is you know pushing in that to death and really um and uh understand that solidarity if I understand right that's what he said is what we need is an understanding of an authentic solidarity that we share um this world so really um thank you so much um we will go on um this week with tomorrow we have Ralph Pena from great Asian American theater community here in New York over decades uh has made a great contribution Wednesday we have three writers from Israel who's Ken or Joshua Sobol and Maya Arad Yassour they will tell us a bit on the situation also a very very complex one um from Israel um Avra Cedropoli from Greece will tell us about Cyprus increase what we hear about and then uh young New York director Ashley Atata who did Carol Churchill's metaphor is an end of an inspire a new very interesting they will talk about her work her rehearsals were interrupted she had faced the decision do I stop do I go on and perhaps she created something what Emmanuel said is kind of a different shimmer a different different way again thank you all for for listening these are serious serious days and what we have always said at the secret talk that there's high numbers of unemployment one out of four most probably more Americans are out of work the COVID virus is out there this all is gasoline and then such a murder um from the boots of the state or police uh unjustified is a match and it can ignite I think we have this theater as Emmanuel also reminded us we also have to be part of the peaceful the contribution that things can change and that things also will change perhaps change is already on the way and we have to find out where this thank you all for listening I know how much is going on in these days where we think we have more time the normal buddy actually they are quite full so it means a lot that all the listeners participate here with us I would like to thank a little bit Hayes for also making the connection and the French cultural services isn't called and Laurent for for for helping us out is a very significant contribution also from a country where arts and theater has a place a very serious place and it also says something about a country about a society if we have learned anything is the way art is treated thought about shared and life is shared it is better when arts are celebrated and if they are not and if they are like we heard from all our colleagues in Brazil that the new minister the first week in office dismantled the culture ministry of culture openly harassing artists the wrong Facebook count posting will get you into jail as it is in Israel in Lebanon or in Egypt or for the case so it says something about that France and I think it is something also for you that you hold up I think to Europe the world and I like very much your inclusive ideas bridging the arts and science getting Europe together giving young artists the chance and opening a global dialogue it is actually what we need thanks to HowlRound for hosting us again for Sia to give up in Los Angeles again before 9 a.m. in the morning every week and and VJ and Travis and the Segal team Sanyang and Andy and again Emmanuel so really thank you for sharing your experience and and also communicating to us the seriousness of the situation but also the chance we have and we better don't screw this one up it is of significance that we make the world a better place so thank you Amanda also for a wonderful translation that is not easy I know Emmanuel could easily have spoken in English and but we often do us who have translators or what else mostly also for me and our listeners so thank you all and I hope you will turn in tomorrow we might do some extra session this week abouting all the the demonstrations and what's what to do now and but I will keep you all posted again thank you all very much and I hope you will have a good evening in Paris and thank you Emmanuel for sharing and it's a most significant contribution you make to theater and it's a model and if theater is of interest it's a model for something and if it works there it can also work in the world that's why that symbolic imaginary and real space is of importance thank you and I hope to see you all soon thank you thank you thank you very much thank you thank you very much how do you say in portuguese bravo for the translation it was a pleasure really I had great need to hear you today I it's a very difficult period here for for all the artists like for everyone but it took me a lot to hear your answers to these questions that that me too I wonder what kind of action yeah and then being someone who is at the same time engaged but more in a context of pacifism I wonder what is the measure of revolt that I can lead through through that so