 Good morning everyone, welcome to Entrepreneur India's Resilience series and today we are going to talk about a very interesting and timely topic and that is about gaming startups in India. I'm Saurav Kumar, editor of special projects, Entrepreneur India, the moderator for the section. Before we start, I'll quickly lay down the ground rules for our attendees. The discussion will go on for 45 minutes or so and this will be followed by a Q&A session for the next 15 minutes. If you have any questions during the course of the discussion, you can post them through the Q&A option. If you're watching us live on Facebook, you can post your questions in the comment section. Mention in your question if it is directed towards any specific panelists and we'll take up the question, post our discussion. Let me now introduce our panelists for the day. We have with us today Mr. Saurav Ja, founder playing 11, Mr. Suhail Chandu, co-founder of analytics for technology, Mr. Vairav Tompulwar, CEO and founder, better capital and Mr. Pawan Nanda, CEO and co-founder, Windows games. So welcome everyone. The first very important question right now, which I want to ask from all of you is that did you play PUBG? Are you in a morning state? No. No what? Okay. So, you know, I'm just looking for people who actually play PUBG and I'm sorry, definitely. I had a daily regime for last six months used to play PUBG with the friends at 11pm sharp. And it was a total shocker for me. I'm blown apart. I'm like, I'm moaning right now. That's all I can say really badly hit that way. I played it once. And I invested a lot like a bit my skills, right? Actually, I started playing better and then this is why they removed the game itself. It's a hard game to master, right? It's not like you start playing well overnight. So you're one of the Royal Pass holders? A lot of investment gone down the drain. So you're one of the Royal Pass holders, right? Yes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. The Royal Pass is more to buy in-app purchase and fancy costumes. I was more into like gutting down the skills, right? So I was like, that was fairly serious. We used to have a league of our own, you know, like there are certain clans that we as college guys have joined. I mean, we in our college group have joined, not that I'm in college anymore, but yeah. Okay. Well, you think something. I said, I played it once as I was doing research for an eSports event that I was going to host. So I attended it once, played it for a day and a half. It's still on my tab and that's the end of my PUBG experience. So I'm actually glad I didn't invest so much time because I'm pretty sure I'd be pretty disheartened if I did. I'm sure it is for a lot of people, you know, since the morning I've seen a lot of memes and everything about PUBG players being disheartened. So, you know, it's very interesting time for Indian gaming industry, you know, in the last monkey bus, Prime Minister Narendra Modi himself urged Indian game makers to combine technology and local flavor to create Indian games. And now, you know, yesterday around 35 Chinese games, including PUBG were banned. So, you know, and it took no time that I started seeing that, you know, there are all types of PUBG and everything available. So, you know, my question, first question is that what is, what will it take for Indian game makers to, you know, get that kind of an experience that PUBG gave that got people hooked on to it? So, and where are we lacking? Or is it or is it just in the making and will be there sometime? So wherever we can, if I can start with you. No, look, I think it's extremely hard to build a game, number one, and it's even harder to build a game that actually becomes as successful as PUBG did, right? I think some human founders basically said that 95% of India gamers essentially played PUBG, right? So I think the short answer is really hard. And the long answer is the fact that, you know, if you just look at the history of some of the best games ever, they have been built by studios that built and failed and built and failed and then succeeded after a very long time, right? So it is just not about technology. Unfortunately, I think we have, in fact, within our portfolio, some of the best gaming partners in the country. However, I think it's just a lot of variables coming together and even the best teams have struggled a lot before getting to something like a PUBG, right? So I think, look, should we start to do our own? Absolutely we should. But I think it's going to take a long time for us to kind of create something that is as good as PUBG. Well, I'll come to you. You know, the new Superfic that you're about to learn. So you've said that it can have a lot of deep tech involved in it. So do you think you'll be able to give that kind of engagement to fans that they'll get hooked on to that kind of, you know, and obviously, this is a simulation game, it's not a fantasy game. So what do you think that we'll be able to create that kind of engagement for players? So I think the key word there that you use was engagement, right? And I think fan engagement and gaming engagement and immersiveness is a big one. And I actually read a report recently that said 79% of people who are watching TV these days between the ages of 16 and 45 are using another device while they're watching television, right? And that could be whether you're playing, whether you're watching the IPL or watching anything else as well. So for us, we come in with a simulation game, which is based on strategy, but it's also based on utilizing historical data from actual matches where for us, we're sitting at our TV screens yelling at the screen saying, I could have done that better than MS Dhoni. I could have captained better than Virat Kohli. And we're sort of trying to give you that experience in the palm of your hands to make those decisions and then see the outcome of your choices actually have an implication on the match outcome. So, you know, I think for us, the other aspect is that we can go all year round, right? I think we've seen now with COVID hitting that there is, you know, there are certain uncertainties that we can't quite manage within ourselves and we don't know whether they're going to hit us or not. So we sort of developed it from the aspect of using, you know, AI and machine learning to make sure that the simulation can continue. There's no match. You're basing it on while it's on. So, you know, this you can play all year round. So I do think fan engagement is a big one and how you loop the fans in is the most important fact. But you look, I agree with Vaibhav, it's not the easiest to do. Even when you've got everything going right, you need that little something to click for the fans to loop on to a game. And yeah, hopefully we all have that somewhere. Okay. So Vaibhav, what would it take to get that something to, you know, for us to get a greater game which can engage a so immense, you know, so deeply that we have some things about that game. If they would have been a simple answer, I would have created a couple of them myself, right? So clearly there is no clear answer to it. In fact, to your answer, and I think Vaibhav also put out really well. I think, so PUBG had something in it, right? So there are multiple first person footing games as well, just to put some context on the lay of the land, right? There's Fortnite, there is Call of Duty, there is Free Fire. But still, the way PUBG sort of, you know, got to the pulse of the nation, you know, with the ease of navigation, with the graphics, the graphics being just enough palatable for the Indian mobile devices. I think all of that required some two years of hard work of about 1,000 developers if I'm not wrong. So PUBG was actually built initially by Blue Hole, a company, you know, which had about 1,000 developers working for two years to get to where they could, right? So it's definitely not an easy thing to do. And with the risk that at the end of the day, when you launch that game, the game can totally bomb, right? So it's a very risky and a very expensive investment as well. So it's not just about skill. I'm sure from a skill standpoint, from an idea standpoint, from a talent standpoint, India is not that behind. I mean, I'm sure there'll be great talent out there. And if we really, you know, give infinite time, infinite charts, infinite pool of capital, we'll be able to deliver something like that. But the question is, is there infinite resources out there in the country? Like ours, definitely not. So yeah, I think it's a lot of factors and not just whether we can do it in India or not, we can definitely do it. But we need to have certain resources in place. Okay. Sourav, I'll come to you next. Is that let me first talk about fantasy gaming with you. So, you know, when when live sports stopped, so fantasy gaming went down to zero. So, you know, is there a lesson to be learned here? Or let's just forget it was one off event. And it won't happen again. So let's move on. It's okay. While fantasy gaming, like live gaming was zero, we like other applications, they provided quiz and many more games. Like Ludo at that time was at high highest and many more games. And we quite move on because after one month, there are some T10 games. Like in the start of April, April, there is a T10 game in Tapai and many more part of the world where Corona hasn't hit so like for 12 to 15 days, it was zero. But after 15 days, we again came back with a T10 and many more games like other applications. They started with the flashback games of IPL and many more other. And we and on playing level, we started quiz as well. So people need something to engage. Sourav, you got muted. You have to unmute. Yeah. Yeah, please go ahead. So that was a dark, that 12 to 15 days was the darkest part of our, for the fantasy gaming. So removing that 10 to 12 days, we sort of evolved. You can say because at that time, there was nothing. So all of them are playing fantasy gaming from the home. They have nothing to do. So that was a blessing in guys for us. And we part of evolved from that. So we have just forgotten about that and we have moved forward for the other. So when I come to you, so what was your learning for Supercrix came from during this period? Or what was this in the plans and it just materialized right now? How is it? I've got to say we sort of looked at adversity and thought, okay, how can we turn adversity into opportunity? And that's where Supercrix evolved from. So it's a complete COVID product. It emerged and evolved out of COVID times. And I think we saw it as therefore a need to continue forward. I mean, there'll always be some sport of the other but we do live in India and in India, cricket is king. I think it's imperative that we sort of understand that as well from a sporting perspective. And even when there's no IPL on, there's nine months of rehearsal to go if there's another series on, you still have that fever for it. You still want to see how you can have certain outcomes come out of a match or what a certain captain could have done last night to change the outcome of a match. And so we sort of give you that perspective with real data. And yeah, so I think we're bracing for, we're not fingers crossed not bracing for another COVID but we're bracing for any uncertainties that could come away. But also just trying to make sure that fans have something different to try and have a thought process on a match because everyone in India thinks and knows that they're an armchair expert. So we're sort of catering to that mentality as well. And sort of I think one interesting thing happened for us at a portfolio company called Fanspole. I think of Fanspole as a fantasy contest for everyone. It's a platform. So it's not like playing against the house. You can literally have friends, family and your fans that are engaging around a contest that you can create. Public, private, your own rules sort of a thing. And what happened is we quickly were able to kind of enable PUBG fantasy as well. And that worked just phenomenally well actually. A little too well because I think there are some constraints around that. But what we think is that fantasy is extreme engagement around sports as well as e-sports. So like I think Sowell also mentioned, you can text only so much. And obviously the excitement does not come out in text. It comes out in action and I think fantasy is about action. And that's where I think engagement is going to continuously happen. And at Fanspole what we're saying is whether it's e-sports or sports across every sport throughout the year, there will be something that sports fans will be able to engage on. So I think over a period of time, I think sports and e-sports will sort of cover any gap whatsoever and also scenarios like we faced in March and April. Obviously the statistics that we see in terms of growth projection, I'm sure that there will be more offering from the games industry. But one question I would want to ask from Sowell and Pawan also and everyone. So I just thought that 85% of the gamers in India actually engage in some kind of cricketing gaming of online. So whereas the other gaming sports like the national, we have hockey, we have football has such a place in the country and Kabaddi, Sowell of course you had Kabaddi and that's it. So Pawan, I'll first come to you and ask you that, would we see more other sports coming into the gaming arena and people engaging with it? For me, I would really love to see more sports coming into the gaming arena. See I think, let me share my theory here. And it's an observation, some people agree with it, some people definitely don't agree with me. But the observation is that when you and I were kids, we used to, in the evening we used to go down, we used to play cricket, maybe 90% of the people used to play cricket, some people used to play football, basketball, tennis, all that. And when you used to come back to our homes, there used to be a cricket match on the TV because our fathers or forefathers have always played that side. So I think the kind of sport that you offer or rather follow is more to do with what you like to play and then what you like to watch. During our generation, people who have literally born in 80s, 90s, I would say, there most of the people have a very strong fondness of cricket, we had got imbibed in ourselves at a very early age. That's how we grew up. We literally used to slept alongside a cricket bat in a ball. But if you look out at today's generation, folks who are currently in their tweens, 13, 14, 15 year old, these guys are not going out and playing in the parks in the evening. These guys are literally on their smartphone and they're playing video games. They're playing computer games, they're playing playstations. They're watching a lot of their, you know, they're probably not even as bigger fan follower of Virat Kohli as they would probably be their popular game streamer out there. There are a couple of popular such video game streamers in India already and we've seen those kind of statistics. So my sense is that, you know, five years, 10 years down the line, there's going to be a very strong e-sports culture because the seeds have been imbibed in such a manner. It's not going to be as much outdoor centric as it used to be when we used to be kids. I think the next generation, next 10, 15 or years is going to completely transform the way sports is looked at. And that's why I completely agree with what Weber has shared. Where fantasy for e-sports is going to be huge. I mean, there's a company called Sleeper, you know, which is being backed by Anderson Horowitz in the U.S. Which only does fantasy for e-sports, right? Because e-sports is large there. So fantasy for e-sports has already started making sense and there's tons of capital that way. In India, now e-sports is picking up and I'm very sure alongside the moment e-sports is going to be sizable, there's going to be a massive leg to fantasy as well. There's no doubt that just the way there is IPL as the, which is a property for cricket, there'll be a massive property similar way for some e-sports game like PUBG or late PUBG rather, or so to say, right? Yeah, that is how I think about it. So, you know, just to mention, there was something called, so one day one of my kids in my home, he was getting ready on a Sunday going, so I asked, where are you going? He said, PUBG thumbnail. I do not know what it was, but there was something called a PUBG thumbnail. And so anyway, that's a part. Swel, I'll come to you cricket, but you've been associated with other sports as well. So you know, what do you think? Will we see them also coming or, you know, in the main game? You know, I half agree with Pawan, but I think I've got a slightly sort of different version as well in terms of seeing the sport grow, right? I mean, I've been involved now with the football league, the hockey league, the badminton league, kabaddi league, and obviously the IPL as well now for three seasons. But having seen the growth of each of these sports individually as well, you see a very strong trend where obviously the IPL is concerned. We know that's an uphill trend. It's not going to drop at any point. The other one that surprised us all, and you know, I've been associated with it since the start, is the kabaddi league. We saw 435 million viewers in the first season. That's, you know, continued on into season number six now and seven and also, I think the big side of that, and since we started kabaddi adda, I've seen obviously tremendous, tremendous fan engagement within that audience, right? And we're talking about tier two, tier three cities, an audience that hasn't sort of been captive, and while Bhavan said, you know, we grew up in our homes playing cricket in our backyard, we've got to remember our grandparents played kabaddi, right? They grew up playing kabaddi. The grandkids now are seeing kabaddi as a cool sport again. So there's sort of this merger of the two, and then in between the parents, therefore, are the kabaddi hadis, where they have to now come to the kabaddi platform as well. So I mean, we're about to launch some kabaddi gaming too, but I think cricket will always be number one, right? I think there's no doubt about that. Cricket will always be number one, cricket will always sort of drive the others. I think the point that Bhavan made about esports is a very good one in the next five to 10 years. It has to head in that direction. I think it's the only logical way forward. We're seeing the drive across the globe, and India is usually not so far away on the tech trends, but I still think cricket and sport will have a separate place to esports. I think sport will always have a very special place. I think we can't discount how much sport means to people, how much the heart strings are tugged on, and how much emotion goes into sport, and when you tap into that emotion when it comes to a game, that's when you draw in a good audience, right? And I think with cricket, you're able to tap in that audience, and kabaddi are able to tap in that pride as well, and who knows, football might be the next or any other sport, but I think cricket will always be the standalone strong one, and then kabaddi I think will be the next one to catch up alongside esports, being the big one. Saro, I'll come to you. So, you know, Swain talked about the tapping, that emotion of cricket in India. Obviously, it's more than a sport, and you know, the cricketing items are more than, you know, the word as God, even so. And so, was that the emotion that you also wanted to tap when you started playing 11, and if given a chance, would you pivot to some other game? What would that mean to you? Yeah, that only, actually I'm also a cricket player. I haven't played a state level or something, but I'm a cricket player. So, that only, that only stuck in my mind, and I started playing 11. Because as a fan, or as a player, and like who do, who want to play cricket, or not playing 11, he can play cricket as a player as well. Like we have 11 player in a team, and as a 12th player, I can play in a team, I can pick who's the man of the match, who will be the man of the match, who will score the most one. So, as a player, players are also in the playing 11, but as a user, I'm also engaging in the playing then platform. And we have also had it to others, like football is the second most loved game in India. Like Suhail said, Kabaddi, Kabaddi is what after cricket football is another loved game in India. Football, basketball as well. So, but the first game will be the cricket only. I think the difference here is, Suhail is talking about from a viewership, from the number of people's standpoint, and Saurav is talking from a monetization. Actually, I'm also talking about from Dream 11, for instance, last year, I know that Kabaddi contributed about 11% of their revenue. So, I did a lot of work with them on that side of it. So, I guess it's a bit, I'm seeing the reflection today of the viewership turn to monetization. And I think that's going to improve, obviously as time goes on, but I think the other sports are still playing catch-up. And I think, you know, we are at the cost of a new generation, like Pawan mentioned, of the tweens and the teenagers who actually spend way more time on esports than they would on life sports, right? For good or for bad, that is the real trend. And I think if you look at about 200, 300 million of these teenagers in a country like ours, that's like the entire population of the United States, by the way, right? So, I think that's just going to be a very, very important segment, right? Just around, so I don't think going forward, because I think, I mean, in my business of venture, I mean, it's all about looking into the future like we discussed in the past. And I think when I look at that, I think over the next decade, like Pawan mentioned, I think esports is just going to be very, very large, right? There will be a Virat Kohli or PUBG or whatever the game is, right? Call of duty, whatever it may be. And there will be an entire generation in India that you and I may not be able to relate to, but they are in a world that is as sticky as cricket and while no other game in India was able to display a cricket, I think esports might, right? And to a large extent, just taking the Vanspool example again, Vanspool is the sleeper of India, like Pawan mentioned, except that it's going to kind of cover both sports and esports, right? Because it's not that life sports is going to die anytime soon. It's just that esports is going to be really, really large in the next decade. Esports can be played anytime, any, like for live game, users have to invest time. Instead of money, they have to invest time as well. So that's why esports, in the upcoming five to 10 years, it will be competing with cricket as well in India. And there is also this whole trend of micro attention spans, right? I think, tell me the last time you watched a three hour Hindi movie, right? Just not happening, right? I think you could binge watch the 40 minute Netflix series, right? But you just can't get yourself to play a movie that is just two and a half hours long. So I think there's that increasing trend where what a PUBG matches, I think there are different durations, right? But that is excitement, right? Everybody's got a faster cycle, which I think they can get in these sports, which they weren't, but I think live sports will maintain that live, the curiosity of live, right? That's all I'm going to go over. So obviously, you know, I saw some of the alternatives to PUBG as you were mentioning, our games, which actually give me shorter duration, faster games, faster experience. So that kind of drives the engagement. So I completely agree there. So, you know, we were talking about, where were you talking about, we will see, you know, Virat Poli's of e-gaming or movies. So I was looking at some of the names that are there, you know, Blizzard, Ramanatham and Pashreyaan, I forgot the names out there. But all are names. You know, there is no women named in that list that I saw. So Baigub, Suhail, Pawan, anyone, what is it? I mean, I know that, you know, out of the total internet users of the country, 560 million, only 33% of women. So is that the cause or is it because predominantly, we are giving cricket as a, you know, as a playing option for two hours of, you know, people, or is it something else that we're not seeing? All my statistics are wrong, that there are women participation, but maybe not at the top. On the lighter note, I think most women are seeing their boyfriends, husbands and everyone so drowned in the TV that they're saying, you know, if this continues, I'm not going to get any time with them. So maybe that's why they've drawn away from it and pulling out as much as they can. But look, I don't know. I think maybe the trends will change, right? I mean, I think we saw with women's sport as well, it took time to engage. We're seeing it now big in Australia, in the United States and other countries before it got big in India as well, even with women's cricket being sort of premier then, we're seeing women's football in America and things like that. I know outside of India and in Europe, there are a lot of women gamers as well. But I think it needs to continue. That culture of, you know, I remember in school, we would go to these dungeon little, you know, gaming arcades and play, and it was me and a bunch of my guy friends, right? And I think that sort of was how we grew up. And I think that sort of, that culture and that ethos has continued into this stage. But I think the more women get invested into a sport and be esports as well and fantasy sport, I think for them that investment there will also translate into playing more games. And I think once you sort of bite the bullet, you're sunk because it's so good. So I think it's taking that first step and then maybe they don't want to take that first step at this point, but I think it's a matter of time. Power in your observation, what have you seen on your platform in terms of women participation? Sorry. So we have about 22% female participants, 78% male, which is, I would say almost similar to slightly better than the overall internet population, the representation on the internet population. We are trying to push forward, we are trying to put more relevant content, relevant games, we are trying to have this dedicated restaurant program, those kind of stuff we are doing to promote one participation. I think with time this is going to pick up. The thing is that, I'm sure when it comes to playing games, there are a lot of women who are playing games, that percentage would anyway be fairly, I think, a 40-60 kind of a ratio. As far as competitive gaming is concerned, because ARDS is like a competitive gaming platform, mobile e-sports platform, as you can say, where there are about 65, 70 odd games, people compete against each other. I think there the percentage is still lesser. So yeah, but of course the future is bright and we all are running for it. I think involvement or I would say inclusion of the entire 50% of the society or gender inclusion is something which is going to be a very massive boom for every sector, so to speak. So it makes all the more sense to do relevant things, to get a very, very balanced gender ratio. Well, I had a small point about my observation. I think boys and men in general have sports which occupies a big part and not much else, right? Whereas women I think will play, will continue to play and that will grow, but I think they also have a tension that is on other segments as well. So I think like e-sports if we say Instagram beauty and fashion is also or YouTube beauty and fashion is a part of it. I mean, let's say somebody who's screaming about beauty and fashion on YouTube, I would say that's similar in so many ways to what somebody or what a male may be screaming a game on YouTube. So I think it's a matter of interest as well. So I think there is enough participation in terms of let's say e-streaming and about a hobby. It's just that I think men have lesser, whereas I think women generally, if you look at beauty, fashion, cooking and sports, I think it's segregated between those buckets. And I can see that play out in my household within my kids as well, right? It's not that the women like sports less, it's just that you do other stuff as well. Saru, how has been the numbers for you on your platform in terms of gender? 13% we have female and another 87 are of male, but the highest winner is a female only in our platform. But I have observed that the cricket interested in the female are less as compared to volleyball or volleyball, badminton in the fantasy sports. Like in the volleyball, the percentage goes up to 33% for the female in playing fantasy as compared to cricket. So but it will change in the upcoming years, like one to two years. Like we are promoting through IPL. Maybe after two years, we will be seeing the women IPL as well. So maybe then the ratio will increase. Okay, great. Well, that's a food for thought for women IPL. Maybe we should really think about. Yeah, I think we're not far away. I think it's also a cultural thing, it has to change culturally. I lived in Australia for four and a half, five years, and I saw women's sport there. I coached women's cricket at the highest level there. And I understand how different the mindset is there versus the way it is here. Here when a women plays sport, it's a huge deal right there. It's just part and parcel of their day. So I think that cultural shift when it does happen, it'll reflect in all aspects, even with gaming as well. I think the other way to sort of try and leverage it, and that's what we're trying to do at Supercrick and at Cambodia as well a little bit, is to try and get a group involved. When you play for pride with your friends, with groups of friends, there's a bit more at stake as well. And I think when you sort of get that sort of group mentality coming into watching a sport, it then automatically reflects into the way you're invested into gaming about that sport. So I think you've got to try and tap into not just those two guys, the two brothers or the father and son in that duo, but get his girlfriend involved, get the wife and the daughter involved somehow. And I think that's how you maybe have to try and monetize it by getting these groups together and creating rooms. And I know a lot of different platforms are doing it and maybe that's an answer. Yeah, we're still going. I think we're still a long way from it because of just the cultural differences as well. So before I move to the next question, I'll again request our attendees to keep your questions. Coming, we'll take it up in the next three, four minutes. So I'll move on to something else which I wanted to know. And Pawan, I'll come to you with this question, is that the government obviously is encouraging gaming players to come up and build game space in India for the world. But I was just looking at the laws that govern gaming in India. So there is still a gray area where something called a skill-based game is allowed as a fancy game or something, but a chance-based game, you cannot involve money in those. So that area is there. So do you think there is any clarification that would be required or amendment that would be required really to make gaming a more, you know, for people to take up gaming in terms of startup to make new games? Okay. See, firstly, I think for people who have decided to build their companies around this, they have had enough research done and the laws are fairly clear. I mean, for the interest of our audience as well and for the panel, I'll be happy to sort of, you know, cite it down here. So as far as real money, as far as games where there are no real money is involved, right, no real money gaming is involved, any and every kind of game is allowed. I mean, you know, you see Ludo, you see Team Bhatti, you see all these games, they can be, you know, they can be played, even though there's luck involved, there's chance involved, as long as there's no real money involved in it, there's absolutely no problem. When it comes to, you know, real money gaming, where people will be putting in some money, wagering in some money, and at the end of the day, they can win some money back. There, as per the Supreme Court of the country, only wagering on game of skills is allowed and how the Supreme Court of India cites game of skill is based on a game that should involve some kind of a hand-eye coordination, finger dexterity, knowledge, EQI, IQ motor skills, basically some reasonable degree of skills and should not be out and out and pre-dominated skills. It's not like every game has a certain percentage of skill and a certain percentage of chance, right? But the predominant effect of a particular game should be skill and not chance. Those kinds of games are allowed. So that is the blanket statement by the Supreme Court of India when it comes to real money gaming. And then it leaves up to each and every state to whether allow or disallow any particular kind of game. But by and large, as you know, out of 28 or 29 states, I think 25 states allow real money gaming and the market is thriving very, very aggressively. So yeah, that's what it is. I think so folks who want to enter into real money gaming, they should definitely make sure that the predominant effect should be skill and not chance. And yeah, for non-real money gaming side, you can pretty much build anything. Can you cite one example where you say that the predominant effect like the skill still has to be the predominant thing and chance Sure, sure, sure. For example, I think, you know, a simple example can be something like a theme pati versus a rami. So theme pati is considered to be a pure game of chance because beyond the kind of cards that are distributed to you, you cannot do much, right? You know, if I have three aces, I will win each and every time. No matter how much money somebody else has, nobody, no matter what happens in this world. However, on the other side, a game like rami, which for the uninitiated, it's basically you need to pick certain cards from a deck and you can discard some cards. You need to make some combinations and it's a lot of probability also that gets involved. That is considered to be a game of skill and not a game of chance. A simple test would be as a person continues to play a particular game, the odds of that person to win should improve. The performance should improve with time. I think that is one simple thing. For example, if you sit on a roulette table, you know, your win or loss or your win is to loss ratio will be a flat line with time. But if you play any game of skill, your win is to loss ratio. If you're playing with the same folks, let's say, eventually will be a linear growing curve. That is how also, you know, it's proved in court of law. All right, thank you. That was really good to understand for me as well. So, you know, we'll start picking up some questions that we have got from our viewers. So, one of the questions that we have got on Facebook from is that, you know, what are the best monetization strategies for gaming startups? So, you know, wherever I'll come to you or so, because when you invest, I'm sure that, you know, one of the main concerns would be that monetization has to happen, right? So, what are the strategies that you think are the best for gaming startups? Yeah, yeah. So, I think there are two segments, right? One is the game itself, and then there are other sort of companies that are built around the game, right? And I think within the game itself, I think the monetization strategies have been fairly well understood over the years across generation of games and Fortnite's of the world have kind of taken it to the next level as well, but it is really about unlocking levels, unlocking, you know, skills or material and things like that, right? So, for a very engaging game, whether it's Fortnite, PUBG, Call of Duty, et cetera, there is a very systematic approach to that which has been established, right? There's a lot of new innovation happening as well in that, but I think that is what I understood. I think the more interesting stuff is happening in the companies that are built around these games, whether they are streaming companies or they are engagement folks like fanspole or somebody like that who's doing fantasy and things like that, right? So, there are a set of new models are coming up, right? Whether I'm monetizing my stream with ads or there is this whole idea of a streamer saying, hey, you can play with me, right? For a different experience. So, there's monetization around that that is happening where either the streamer is going direct or there are platforms or they're going through messaging and things like that. Game coaching itself is globally now a multi-billion dollar industry, which means there are people who actually get pay hourly coachings to get better at a certain game, right? So, it is just incredible. So, I think the game stuff is broadly understood that there's obviously innovation, but around the companies that are being built around these games, there's just incredible stuff that's happening in terms of monetization, right? So, lots of different players experimenting with lots of different things. Eventually, I think my belief is that we will see a very, very large ecosystem forming around games just because like Pawan mentioned, it's very hard to build these games, right? So, it's not that we will have hundreds and thousands of really good games with large population, right? So, we'll have only a few. So, the ecosystem around these will be where a lot of innovation around monetization will happen. So, what would you say to the monetization strategy that you think are the best for gaming startups? Unmute, yes, sir. Saurav. You're on mute, Saurav. Saurav, can you hear us? So, Pawan, if I can come to you with the same question that you know in terms of monetization, what would be the best strategies for gaming startups? So, it's a very hard question that I didn't want for days, right? So, there are four business models in the gaming ecosystem. The first one is a premium model where you pay for a game and then you start playing that game, right? The way you used to play when you were kids, you used to buy these cartridges and then you used to buy even now PlayStation series. That's a premium model. Second is a premium model, where you start playing a game for free and then eventually you sort of, you know, you are blocked, your game gets difficult and you need to buy certain things to either get more ammunition or get more attempts or whatever, you know? Or something like a Candy Crush is operating on a premium model. The third one is an ad driven model, where you play games, you show ads and eventually you make many out of those ads when people buy some or make some purchases, right? And a lot of these companies, I'm sure I don't have to text you, everybody. This is pretty much running on an ad model, right? The entire Facebook is built on ad revenues. And the fourth one is RealMirror, which is, I think, the least and the recent and probably the better unit economics one was, why he's was, is when people sort of, let's say you and I are playing Karim or, you know, let's say you're like fantasy, right? You pay an entity, there's a price pool, some break we'll be getting deducted from the price pool and you get the rest of the money back. Our top players will get that back. Now the issue, there is also some issues, right? For example, historically it's been shown it's been observed that Indians are not that good with making in-app purchases. So, I mean, that percentage is abysmally losses, you know, when you compare it with U.S. or Europe. Their gaming companies can make tons of money without, without, you know, just premium model because people like to pay for games, right? In India, that's not a mentality. At least that's how it's been told, right? Paying for games is a waste of money. So that's why usually Indian companies struggle with in-app purchases. However, of course, if you make a great game, like PUBG was able to milk a lot of money through in-app purchases, but still they were only taking, even at the end of the day. When you're a small developer, let's say you're an indie developer, you're the only person who have an idea, you can easily start clocking, you know, the game is reasonably well. You can make maybe $3,000, $4,000 at the end of the month, right? You can simply integrate ad networks. But the only problem there is that the ECPMs, which is the amount of money you can earn per 1,000 people watching your ad for Indian audience, especially the tier to tier five audience, is again abysmally low because of their lower purchasing capacity versus a European or an American. So yeah, these are the pros and cons for each of these things. But again, I think developers should really try to think it through what kind of game they want to build and accordingly they need to think of a more diverse strategy. So I would believe if engagement increases the experience of engaging with the game I think that in-app purchase amount maybe may improve that's what I think. Yeah, absolutely. I think, yes, how you define engagement again is important. Time spent is the way you define engagement. Then it means something else. Then as your time spent will increase, you can totally show ads, your ad revenue will also increase, but your server cost will also increase alongside it. And so you need to find out that balance where your unit economics is making sense for you, right? So that's why a lot of people put up paywall. They will not let you play for free. Even a user wants to play for one hour in a particular game. Gaming companies will be like, after 30 minutes you have to either make a payment or you go. Because that's what probably moderately makes more sense for them. So we'll pick up some questions from the audience here also. So we have Ratchit, who has asked the question. If you can give the audio to Ratchit, please. Ratchit, mix it. Okay, Ratchit, go ahead. Hello. Yes, Ratchit, we can hear you. So everyone, I wanted to ask that there are a lot of going on in online coaching in India right now. Like BioJuice bought, bought it for $800 million for teachers coding for kids. Right? Yes, go ahead. Yeah, and I've seen that there's a lot of boom in India right now for online gaming, like PC gaming, PUBG, and things like that. So I was thinking that. What do you guys think about coaching for online games? Because I've seen in USA, there's a website called Gaming Sensitize Something, which DC's online gaming has hit in the US. I just want to come in here actually. So I actually wanted to come in a little bit earlier on the previous question as well. Because I really like the point that Veba and Pawan were making about how there is another monetization strategy now where beneath the top layer is exactly what Ratchit said as well. People are looking for coaching to be able to make more money on their online gaming. Right? And whether it's now my Team 11 or Dream 11 that's got a separate set of experts that are putting out their views on who to pick for a match, that's another one. And that's why for us, we actually come in from a super quick perspective to say, we are that simulator because we have used and utilized historical data based on the players within a particular league. And that actually facilitates your choices in a my Team 11, in a Dream 11, in a Playing 11, to make better choices. Right? So in some sense, we are the coaching side of it while actually also being a simulator game. And I think that's where I think there is a there's a model there, which is the added revenue, right? I mean, obviously, we're still going to look at the advertising revenue, which I think historically wasn't very significant in gaming in India in some sense. But I think now I'm going forward. I do think that revenue is going to be a much larger chunk. But yeah, I think this in-game coaching or looking for coaching to make more money online is going to be a big one. I think how you can tie up and find ways to facilitate that is going to be a very, very key role. And, you know, we've tied up, we're trying in the process to tie up with e-commerce platforms where therefore when you win coins on our platform, you can then use that on a wallet online. But then you've got the knowledge from there to be able to win more money and real cash on a fantasy platform as well. So it's just another way of coaching, but making more money at the end of it for a gamer. Well, I think you already have talked about this thing that, you know, the coaching thing. So anything else that you would want to add there? No, I think I'll just reiterate that I think there is a very tangible opportunity there. It's very early in India, but I think there is something very interesting and I think some of the best teams will figure it out. For a problem, you have to add something before we move to the next question. No, I think, yes, to his question, very, you know, pointedly, I think there are these kind of options that you, the idea of, you know, giving gaming coaching online is already happening in India. I mean, so I think an academy has already started with these video tutorials where, you know, top gamers can, you can book session with these top gamers. And the same way, I think White Hat or Baiju, if they have already, I think they've already started teaching coding blocks, you know, where people can actually code games, you know, you can teach your kids how to make their first games. Yeah. So a lot of it is happening in India already. For fantasy, many applications are providing how to play, how to choose their team. But not on larger scale, they are providing through the most reputable cricketers like Sanjay Manjrikar is providing, Akash Chopra is providing the team. So he'll also have provided a team on fan code, I have seen that. So, but in upcoming years, like the player who are playing most on the fantasy application can also provide the team to have the newbies who are coming to play. So we will see this in upcoming future. So, you know, we have a few minutes left. So we'll take a couple of more questions. I think Devakar Singh has a question. If you can give the mic to Devakar Singh. Devakar, you'll have to unmute and ask the question. Yeah, are you able to hear me? Yes, please go ahead. Yeah, see my question is that I see a lot of talented gaming developers in the industry. I am from Hyderabad and we couldn't produce best of the games from India in spite of having best of the talent. Is it because of the conservative approach for us to brand globally and having that kind of approach or what is making us? Are we really need to wait other games to be banned to our gaming industry to have some kind of a stimulation? I feel we have all that. I just wanted to know what are the reasons. Devakar, we discussed about this towards the start of this session, but definitely I'll ask Pawan or Begum if you can just reiterate some of the things that you have said for Devakar Singh. I guess the main reason is funding issues. Yeah, see I think if you're from Hyderabad, I'm sure I know at least there's so many companies in Hyderabad, good gaming companies. But the thing is what's happening currently is a lot of these Indian game studios which have good talent. They're actually acting as the back offices for global clients. Those guys get to build handsomely per hour basis and they are able to turn some gaming games for these European US clients. And we need to shift that focus and now of course if coming back to funding again, they will have to literally leave that safe path of recurring income and venture into building something of their own from the beginning. And yeah, that kind of if Indians and Indian talent is empowered to take that kind of a risk flush with capital, flush with the resources, then we'll be able to sort of arrive at some fabulous titans. You know, I think Pawan is right. You know, I think the risk is not small when you want to build a detailed, a big game. There's also the talent that you have to pay for and it doesn't come cheap. You know, and as Pawan said, a lot of us are the back end for investors and for companies outside of India and in many ways it's sort of a nice win-win for them and for us as well. So, you know, in some ways I don't think it's conservative. I think it's logical in many ways till you sort of have enough capital, enough funding. I mean, we've got a great investor who's out of Europe and we've had a good working relationship with them. But yeah, it is a big risk when you want to take a game from absolutely nothing and then put it out into any form. Right? So yeah, I think the minute there is enough capital and resources, then it becomes more doable and it is still a big risk. Yeah, and I think we'll have to just go through a generation of people who are building from scratch, feeling and learning and we'll literally need to get some fairly large, you know, amount of capital committed to something like this, right? Otherwise, it's just not going to happen. All monetization should be cracked, right? Consumers should be like spending their nuts and bolts into every game. The way it happens in Bollywood, right? Why Bollywood is being able to build such audacious projects because they know that if it's going to be a blockbuster, we'll earn 500 crores, right? The same way even a game developer should think, so it's easier to arrange for capital to take that kind of bet. Babar, we basically have to find a hero where no matter whether the film is crap or not, people still turn up and watch it. Yeah, we need to find a, we need to find a bhai, bhai in the game. Okay, sorry, gentleman, I had got disconnected, but I'm back. So we have, we'll take this one more question which is from Gaurav, I believe. So Gaurav, try if you can give him the, what do you think? Hello, everyone. Yes, Gaurav, go ahead. Actually, my question was, you know, for the funding of the startups. So, I mean, I was like, I mean, every startup, you know, it needs funding to, you know, to scale up. So how do we approach VCs or, I mean, for that matter, any other investor? Yeah. So I can take a first crack at it. Look, Gaurav, I think that's a classic question that has been across segments, not just gaming. And I think my view has been very simple that to cut through, there's always a demand supply gap in almost every ecosystem. And I think in India, we have a, we have a very large gap there, right? So I think the best way to kind of raise capital is just to, actually, what one of my founders articulated best, he said, there's an information arbitrage that has to be understood between a founder who's trying to raise and a founder who actually successfully raises. There is a bunch of information around how you pitch, what your deck looks like, are you, you understand all the key things that an investor looks for and things like that, right? So one way to look at it is just to find a mentor, a founder who has raised, right? Nobody else. That's the mentor you're looking for, a founder who has raised to understand, hey, you know, where am I and where do I have to get to number one, right? Number two, I think, you know, getting introduced to investors almost everybody gets way too much than they can handle. So the best way to get introduced is through a founder that that investor is already funded, right? So I think these two are the most important, I would say, besides which, I think, you know, let's say you do a game and it kind of is in the trending list, there are enough VCs and there are junior staff at those companies who are looking at app and the other rankings and things like that, right? So that's another way to quickly get attention as well, obviously harder, but also something that some people have kind of figured out quite well. But I think I rely on the first two, figure out your information arbitrage, so you know that your pitch is worth listening to, and you're very strong and you're not not doing something that is a disservice to what where you already are. And then second, really figure out that warm introduction. I think I'm just going to add to what Weber already said. I think great points he's covered, you know, most of it. The only other thing I would also add is maybe just do your deep research on the investors that you're looking at as well. I think if you, you know, you've got to align with what they're looking to do as well within their portfolio. I think, you know, we've had investment from Atta Venture Fund in Bombay and also from Nordenbin for this. So, you know, from that aspect, we've sort of raised capital for and supercritically separately. But I think we found alignment in the vision of what each one wanted to do. And I think once you have that vision that is shared, then it's easier to be on the same page, right? And I think you've got to choose which battles to pick as well. Once, as Weber said, it's one thing to look to raise capital. It's another to actually raise it. And I think there's a whole process there that hinges on how you can work together. And you've got to pick your battles where you can let a few go and you've got to find the right compromise between the two as well. But look, there's actually a lot of good courses online that I actually put a couple of people onto. And I'm happy to, you know, pass them on to sort of to pass on to those who want to do a course in just how to approach a VC, how to create pitch decks, you know, the process in actually looking for funding. And I think it's good to also learn. There's a lot of, we've all got time on our hands. We're sitting at home. I think it's a good time to upskill and, you know, do a few internalization courses on how to be a better, you know, startup and how to sort of pitch to VCs as well. All right then, I really want to continue this conversation. But in the interest of time, we'll have to finish now. So thank you. Thank you, Suheyn. Thank you, Viva. Thank you, Saurav. Thank you, Pawan for being here today. It was really, really wonderful to know from you about the entire gaming ecosystem and where we are headed. And I'm sure that our listeners have also gained a lot from the insights given by all of you here. So hope to see you again and stay safe. Thank you so much. Thanks, Saurav. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thanks so much, guys. It was a pleasure attending this one on day one. Bye. Thanks, everyone. Thank you.