 ending up at Istanbul in about three months. It's to check the depth of a puddle, which like drives rocks into it, hitting a radner as well. She's enjoying it thoroughly, aren't you a radner? This is the weather we currently have, which is thunder lightning and hail. Gavin, a radner, how are you? Oh, great, thanks. Hi. Great to be here. Yes, so it's great. It's nice to hook up again, albeit virtually. Yeah, we're sort of spiritual, crazy running adventure twins or something. Yes. Well, I think the last time I saw you, Chris, it was in Wales with a backpack about the size of you running over the bridge with Gavin. Yeah, the seven bridge, yeah. Yes. So I should say how we met for our friends at home. So I once entered a 24-hour ultra race. First thing I'd ever, first time I'd ever done anything like that. It was, what, about five years ago now. And I was quite happy to run, I think I ran 76 miles around this. It was around a country estate, Gavin, wasn't it? Yeah, that bathhouse to stay in near Sarncestor, yeah. Yes. And I got to about two in the morning and I thought, right, sod this, I'm going to go to my tent and sleep. And when I woke up in the morning, I thought, right, I'll just do one more lap. And I was quite happy. I hadn't set myself a target. I thought 76 miles was okay. And lo and behold, I'm on that last lap in the morning and I was really feeling it. It was hard work by that time in the morning. And I'm running with someone who's become a long time friend of mine, Mike. Hello, Mike, if you're watching. And we pulled up alongside Gavin. And Gavin was doing the 100 miler, weren't you? Oh yeah, that was my target, was 100s. If I could get to 100, I'd be happy. Yes. And then it kind of clicked to me that, oh, these guys that have been running all night long are trying to get 100 miles. Right, I see. I kind of, like I was new to this thing. I didn't realize the 100 miles in 24 hours is the holy grail of them. I didn't really know that myself. I just thought it's a nice round figure. And I did the calculations of roughly how fast I thought I'd be running, how much time there was. And also that I wasn't planning to sleep. So I just started down in these caffeine gels, which I thought you could take every 20 minutes, like the normal gels. And I didn't realize till I'd had 12 of them, I looked at the packet and it said, no more than something like one every 12 hours. So I had something like a 12, a 10 time concentration of caffeine keeping me going. And I tell you, it really, at no point did I feel like sleeping. Yes, that stuff's great. If it keeps you awake, it's when caffeine gives you the jitters that it's just horrible, isn't it? I think I was definitely in an altered state by the time I finished. But I was very happy as well. And I stopped two hours before the, I could have run for another two hours. I did something really stupid. I wasn't looking at the leaderboard because like yourself, I've never done anything like this before. And I had no idea that I could conceivably have a chance of winning anything or getting a decent score out of this. So I stopped looking at what other people were doing. And I didn't realize that there were only like three people or two people who'd run as far as I had or maybe even possibly a bit more. And if I'd just done one more loop, I had two hours, I just hobbled around one more time. I would have been joints third and got a medal, but hey, I had a good time anyway. So I remember pulling alongside you and we were just in a way and you said, I'm actually training to run the length of the UK. Yeah. And I replied, oh, I'm thinking of doing, or I'm planning on, I never really think about doing things. I normally plan to do them. And they just, that plan can take time to come to fruition in my life. But I normally eventually do the things I wanna do. And so, and then you announced you were gonna film the whole thing, which just I thought, oh my God, that's gonna be an admin night or a logistical nightmare. And- This still is. That film will be finished. I mean, like yourself, I do eventually finish the things I said I'm gonna do, but I think next year should be the year that that comes out. But yeah, it was a hell of an experience. So I'm gonna fast forward a bit here because I feel rude to a radner leaving you out of this running trio, trio, duo. But- I am definitely not a runner. I ran for the bus once. So, yeah, we'll come on to that because I think a lot of people's idea of running is that thing like when you're kidding, you get all out of breath and it's horrible and you just don't ever wanna do it again. And it's like, I try and explain to people that's not running. I don't know what that is, but that's not running. Running is a beautiful, meditative, it's for me anyway, experience. And it's just enhanced my life so much. But anyway, we'll talk more about our reasons behind running in a bit. But fast forward to when you ran from John O'Groats to Land's End, which was the subject of your first book, which I don't have. Which I have here, being a good self-promoting author. No, no, no, you should do that because these books are hard to write. They take a year to write. That's a year full-time that you have to find alongside your job if you need to pay the bills. It's good to promote and- Yeah, then you're gonna sell the thing. Then you're gonna get out to the world. That's a whole other. Well, you've made two sales off me so far, so there you go, you're gonna be loaded. That's about, what, 36p in a bank? So yeah, so we ran a little bit on your juggle. That's the John O'Groats to Land's End, to use runner's speak. And gosh, you were going at quite a fair old pace considering I met you in Devon, so you'd run most of the length of the nation by that stage. I wouldn't have wanted to keep up with you for much longer. I'm a bit of a plugger. Well, unlike you, I was travelling fairly light though. I did have a backpack, but much smaller, with much less weight. And I guess I had sort of... I just internalised the process, so it was just a normal form of locomotion at that point. And I think maybe going over mountains so many sort of overland trails and stuff had kind of really helped my muscles to kind of cope with all sorts of terrain. So the flat roads of, we were on the borders of... Where were we? We weren't quite... We went into Cornwall, but we started in Devon, didn't we? Yeah, so it was fairly flat around there, so it was easy to keep up the decency. You still have time to grieve by then. Yeah, I mean, I'd had a lot of injuries. I mean, it wasn't easy at all. I mean, but by that point, it healed. I had really horrible shin pain because it turned out I had a weird congenital lump on the front of my right shin, which flares up every time I run like over 20 to 23 miles on a regular basis. But obviously I would not normally experience that. So it doesn't really affect me in normal running, but every day running at roughly a marathon or almost a marathon every day, yeah, that did take its toll. But by the end of the thing, the body just going, you know what? I'm just going to help you. I'm just going to take away the pain and just power on. Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it? The two things I'm going to pick up on there is one, how bloody invincible you become. When I was a 19 year old Marine, 18, 19, running up a hill like that used to just kill me. I hated it. I was the worst at it, right? It was the next worst thing to torture for me, right? On my juggle, I was running up hills in Wales that were 18 kilometers straight up without even stopping. I didn't want to stop because it was too boring to walk. So I just keep running and I was running up hills like that. My body just, you know, my body and my lungs got used to it. One thing that people don't tell you is that running can be easier than walking because if you're on your feet, if you're going to walk for 12 hours in a day, say you're doing a massive hike, that will probably hurt more than if you ran that same distance because you'll be running for less time. Your feet are physically on the ground less because in running, obviously you're launching yourself into the air and there are, you know, if you're to measure the actual amount of time that your body's supported whilst your foot is being pressed against tarmac, it's considerably less time. So once you get over that extra muscular effort and the cardiovascular load, it can be easier to run slowly than walk, but you only really experience that benefit over really long distances, I think. This is the art of ultra running, isn't it? I mean, I remember because that race I discussed around the country house was my first, I'm trotting along with a guy, we're going at such a gentle pace. And I knew I was doing the right thing because this guy next to me, he's got all the gear on, he's got the red thing with all the bottles sticking out, the nice training shoes on there, you know, dressed in almost shitty clothes that I normally wear, right? Old pair of trainers I've had for two years. And this guy's got all the gear and he obviously knew what he was doing. We got to the first hill and I'm kind of like, form a marine, get into the position, I'm ready to charge up this hill and pay the price at the top of it. This guy starts walking. Yeah. I'm like, oh, okay. So we walked up and then it was then that it hit me why ultra runners can run such huge distances. It's the fact that you don't push yourself into that burnout, that kind of burnout phase. Yeah. Yeah, you minimize, there's no, you're very efficient basically, you sort of say, well, there's no point in running a steep hill when the game time will be so minimal when I could just walk out fast on. But you'll notice the ultra runners, they tend to like, they walk fast up the hill and they're only going marginally slower than they would be if they were running. But they can serve so much more energy just for that. Yeah. A brutal bit. In the military, it's called speed marching. It's exactly the same principle. You run the flat and downhill and you walk the uphill, so you sort of fast pace the uphills. So, oh and the other thing I was wanting to pick up on there Gavin is, when you run the length of the country, you don't have fine that most injuries that ordinarily you would have taken two or three weeks off running for, you can just ignore and, you know. Yeah, you do get to, you get very familiar with the different flavors and varieties of pain. Which pain constitutes a serious injury like a stress fracture and which kind of pain is just like wear and tear or shin splints or a sort of niggle in your knee that you can kind of support with a, just bring a support with the input over your knee and then it'll be fine. Most pain that you encounter running is manageable really and won't make you, won't permanently grip with you. But again, it's sort of like you have an internal sense of the develop and you sort of figure out which things are really serious. And I mean, I did have times on Johnny Gutsland's end when I had an injury that was so, so painful and so unpleasant that I had to take like a half day off or something. I think I took one day off now and again when it got really bad, but pretty much everything healed while I ran. At one point I was kind of meditating on pain. I was thinking, okay, so there's three kinds of pain here that are happening. There's like a gentle throbbing pain, like a jellyfish. There's like a sharp fiery pain and there's like a kind of shooting firework pain. And I was thinking about all the different kinds of pain and then a weird sort of way it helped diminish their effect that I was kind of just analysing. She's looking at me like I'm not. No, genuinely, it's a mindfulness technique. It's natural, like, well, meditative and that thing of focusing on something and focusing on what the sensation is that you're feeling how much you're putting on it and what it, you know, kind of being in the moment rather than worrying about what's going to happen. Yeah, you stop trying to fight it. Stop trying to stop it happening because you have no control over that. But you have control over how you react to it. I think Mira Kami's got a good quote in his book where he says, pain is unavoidable, suffering is optional. Yes, can I just show off a little bit there and I know you will have been in this same category, Gavin. It's just a friend of mine, a little while back said, oh, you want to read this book by, remind me of the chap's name. He's on my shelf. There's it, Mira Kami. Mira Kami, yeah. Yeah, so this Japanese gentleman that writes very wonderful literature about his running. And so I ordered his book and I read it and you sense all those parallels that you have with a fellow runner, the way they talk about it. It's all the stuff you think yourself. It's a lovely, lovely book. And then lo and behold, when I released my latest book, there you go, everyone, there's a pitch. State of mind, that's my story of running the length of the country. I went on Amazon and in the bestseller category under extreme sports or whatever the category is, or marathons or something, there's my book next to his. Yeah, that's a nice feeling. I'm not suggesting for one minute my book's going to sell anywhere near as many as this gentleman's because he's a very well-renowned author. But just for that moment in time, to have a goal, to write your book and then to see it up there with a guy who's a little bit of a hero to you. And sure we've all done it. I've screen-shotted my book on the Amazon bestseller list, opposite my favorite runners about writing. I've run it, writers about running, rather. And I mean, there are, there's a very small but growing audience of people who like to read about and running adventures. So it's not a negligible audience. It's growing all the time. For what I find really interesting, as a non-runner, but as an avid reader, when you first gave me downhill from here, I'll be honest, I remember just thinking, oh God, really? Oh, it's a book about running, yay. And of course, I had to read it. But I really loved it because actually it's, you know, what is writing and what is storytelling? It's for me, for the readers, reading about something new, about a new world, new experiences, and especially from the point of view of someone who is experiencing it in such an extreme and intense emotional way. And that comes out in the writing. I've read several different books which are ostensibly about running, and they are these really lovely human, personal stories. And I really love that. And I think actually, you know, when they're marketed as a book that's about running, I think that's sort of a little bit unfair. I think in a big way, and I think Chris, this counts definitely for all books. And I'm very much gathered with both of yours that they're very much memoirs, they're so personal. And I remember reading, I think one of the first ones I read other than yours was Dean Carnuthers, what's it called, The Greeted One. Oh, Road to Sparta. Yeah, Road to Sparta. And we got that because we were at the book launch, just after your book launch. So actually talking, Chris, about, you know, your favorite moments of seeing your book next to your heroes. I think probably one of Gavin's all-time favorite photos is the photo of Gavin's next to Dean, who is absolutely one of his heroes, and they're holding copies of each other's books. They signed it, it's so cute. Yeah, yeah, he asked me, this actually brings us nicely on to running your book. He asked me to sign my book for him, which is the reason I was queuing up for him to sign his book. But yeah, very nice chat, very... Can we get a chance to meet Dean Carnuthers? He's such an inspiring guy. I'm sure I speak for many, many people. He got me into the sport. Did you read that ultramarathon, man? Yeah, it's literally all my running books, I think, that up there, yeah, there they are, all on the shelf together. I've had a thing about being the non-runner reading these books. It was really interesting. So obviously yours, I don't know, was a personal connection, but the reason I mentioned Dean was when we were sat in that bookbox, the room was absolutely packed. And I think, I suspect, every single person there was a nabbed runner. And all the conversations were, you know, these things about PBs and what crazy run you're gonna do next. And I'm sat there kind of like... And I was just really fascinated about the book and about the process of writing. And I still am, that wasn't diminished. I think it's an amazing thing and not to be taken lightly. It's not just, you know, it's an amazing thing that you guys do, you know, with these incredible runs of the commitment and passion you have. There's an entirely different skill to be able to write about it, to be able to interrogate your own feelings and stories enough to then be able to document them in a way that kind of reaches me as a reader and an audience. And that, I mean, I think that neither of you, nor Dean, should take that lightly because I think it's an extraordinary talent. And I, as a non-brother, I really love to read the stories. Oh, yeah. One second, folks. Yeah, we may have lost you. One second. Um, bum, bum, bum, bum. One second. Ah, he's back. I'm back. Sorry. It's not. It's, um, oh, bear with me. Yes, now I've gone big, have I? Yeah. You've gone slightly, yeah. Yeah, sorry about this. Just bear with me a second, friends at home. This is the joys of podcasting or A.K.A. buying a two and a half thousand pounds computer, which then a week later does this to you. So let's have a look. This is radio versus video. Why would everyone do pictures then? Right. Oh, that's better. I'm gonna do that. And what it's gonna do in a minute, it's gonna flick back again, but there's nothing we can really do about that. So, yes, Dean Carnass is a friend of mine said, Chris, have you checked this guy out? And he sent me a link to his Facebook. I literally am one of these people. I will immediately buy that person's book then. If I see something that I think is interesting. So I bought his book and I was just gobsmacked. I didn't, I'm of that era when we were taught running a marathon is probably gonna kill you. And that is the maximum limit of human endurance. And of course, you learn a lot about life here, don't you? And a lot about psychology and sociology, the limits that are put on us. Here's a guy. He's just run a marathon before breakfast for fun. And now he's taking the kids to school, right? Yeah. I thought, right, I need, that's when the seed was sown. I want a bit of this, you know, I want to check this out. So I just want to, before we come onto the Orient, to I want to just cover when you came to support me in Wales, wasn't it? Oh yeah, yeah. So very kindly as I'm running towards the seven bridge, my geography is not very good because I was just looking at the compass and going south. You didn't have a map, did you? No, I didn't have a map. I don't want, I want people to see that these things aren't the complicated plan for months and months. And because you start doing that, 80% of people are gonna talk themselves out of it because it seems impossible. Where in actual fact, all you need is a pair of trainers. If you've got a pair of running shorts is probably a bit better. And you've got to point south, you know, if you've got your bank card and a phone, that is... Well yeah, within the United Kingdom, absolutely. Because we have a temperate climate where everyone speaks the same language about. Roughly. There aren't any mega fauna that's gonna eat you. So actually, yeah, you're right. There's not, technically, you probably don't need a huge amount to do it. I made it more complicated because I decided to film it, as you say. Yeah, the challenges of just having all that gear, having to charge all this equipment, upload all this footage every night, meant that we had to stay in B&Bs and hotels, which meant that we had to get to specific places, which meant that we had to boot things. Anyway, that became a whole logistical nightmare. So I actually wish in a way I'd done it the way you did it. Maybe if I would do it again in reverse or something, I'll try the lightweight supported route. There's a lot to be said about that, isn't there? Because when I go out with my son, and here's a lesson for all of us, he's like, daddy, you're not gonna turn the camera on, are you, right? So let me just clarify, my son never goes on the internet. I don't believe in putting children on the internet. There is one clip of him when we ran to Land's End together, but that was put out on the nine o'clock news. So I had no choice in that. It's quite a memorable clip running the last 100 meters to Land's End with my little boy. I treasure that. I've got a summer one, but where's my mum? But yeah, when we go out in the nature and we go and build a shelter or whatever, he's like, dad, you're not gonna take the camera, are you? So, you know, they pick up on these things and it does take away from the serendipity of life, you know? How many people, I was gonna say, how many people have been in a national park and there's a lion, and by the time they got their camera out and they got the, you know, the right set up and they, oh, lion's gone. Sorry. Yeah, you've got to be in the moment. But my solution to that when I was filming was to talk to the camera like it was a friend. So that's something I would recommend. If anyone does want to film it, don't buy massive amounts of gear and don't do it, I didn't get someone to shoot you from the side of the roadside and get drones and stuff. Just, you can get like a GoPro on a gimbal. You can wear it in a little holster around your neck. Take it out, just talk to it like it's a buddy, put it back in again, that's it. And then sometimes film the scenery, but I didn't have to stop, I didn't have to load. I mean, occasionally I had to change batteries or cars, but that took about 30 seconds each time. So actually that side of things, if I just kept it to that, I would be quite manageable. But yeah, you want to have that balance of being in the moment. And I found, I didn't have to listen to music at all. Which surprised me, because I love, when I'm in training, I listen to music all the time, but I really wanted to be wherever I was and to hear the sound of the birds and the wind and whatever else was going on. And I couldn't do that if I had some music in my ear. So I only ever used music if I was really struggling as a kind of motivating thing to get the rhythm up or to distract me from the pain. Generally, yeah, I didn't need it. I wasn't bored. So there I was in Wales, the seven bridge appeared on the horizon. I'd just run up this 18-kilometer hill. I think I'd, what, I'd done about 30 miles odd already. And lo and behold, this kind couple arrived in your, was it your camper van all the way from London. Gavin insisted on taking my backpack, which was a, phew! And that's always a curse for the put. That happened three times on the run. Two Marines and yourself, Gavin insisted on taking the backpack, which was very kind of you guys. The trouble is that then freed me up to run at a semi-normal pace. And by that time I was quite fit and not having the backpack on meant I was a bit like a racing snake. And you poor guys are like, you know. I've got trouble with this thing. Yeah, I'm having to put you through your paces, but we then ran what, like another seven, eight, maybe even nine miles or something. Yeah. I was certainly a lot quite a long time. It was well dark by the time we finished. We were on head touches, I think, by the end. Yes. And you probably bored out of your mind waiting. Well, no, I wanted to bring a radner in because a radner very kindly arranged, she found this pub on the route and said, right, let's meet there, drove the camper van there, then bought me dinner. And then a radner arranged my camping spot for the evening as I was about to hit the highway again and find a field. You very kindly spoke to the land person. You know, I can't say land lady anymore, the land person of the pub. And the land lady turned around and went, yep, pitch it in the beer garden. So it was a result. It was also a special moment for me because when I worked out my mileage, I'd gone from being in deficit for running an ultramarathon a day. So I was under the marathon distance. And that was the day that put me back up, back into the sort of contention. Your average went over 26 again. Yes, so that was a nice moment. Yeah, and it's amazing. I want to do more running with people. Next time I have a big adventure, I want to try and twist a few more arms into coming with me because it does, you have a day where it's just pleasant and you don't have any, you don't think about the pain and, yeah, you can still get lost and confused and stuff, but you're not alone so much, you know, and you have, you just have someone else there who understands what you're doing and can cheer it with you. Actually, kept you, your ionators, to kept you going and you've always sped up when you have someone else. Oh yeah, yeah. Especially when I was on the bike. When you were so excited. Yeah, can you just remember I'm running and I've already run 20 miles and you just sped up. I just remember cycling along you. Like, it's not called walking the orient. Yeah, she shan't at me like you started major from the sidelines sometimes. It worked, I forgot that quicker. Anyway, yes, so how did we get on to running the orient? Yes, so let's get on to that. So you've run the length of the United Kingdom, which is, you know, that's beyond the vast majority of people's comprehension almost. People will say, God, you're mad when they hear things like that, but you weren't happy to stop there. I mean, you then decided you were gonna run from London to Istanbul, have I got that right? Yeah, well, I've got to discuss with you the thought process of what, what happened between there and this because I wanted to do another adventure and I wanted to, I wanted to have something else to write about. And I went through all sorts of possibilities, including the Appalachian Trail, which runs from Georgia to Maine in America. And then I pitched this to Radna, said, would you like to come with me? And this would be amazing. It's like, you know, right out of the wilderness of like America and it's all forest and it's beautiful and it's really remote and there's like about four roads and there's no towns. And yeah, Radna's given me a similar expression. So basically I'm gonna be sitting in a van by the side of a dirt track in the backwards of America, in the place that deliverance is setting, you know? Waiting for someone to come out with a banjo. Yeah, you weren't very keen, I don't think. The banjo leaves in my worries. Yeah, that bears an algae to the soul of this. You went for a pan Europe instead. Yeah, well, this is where Dean Karnazer's comes in oddly enough because as we said, we went to the book launch and I was, because I got talking to a guy who edits like the Wind magazine, which is a fantastic magazine if anyone hasn't read it, if you're into running, it's great. What's it called? I like the Wind. It's like a, it's a beautifully produced kind of artisan monthly magazine about running. It's really stunning. You can, I mean, you should write something for it. They're quite happy to have contributors. Hey, if I write something for a publication called Like the Wind, my girlfriend, Jenny, is gonna have a different take on that. It's really lovely actually because I've got a real focus on really beautifully written pieces. Like some of them are quite poetic but also illustration and photography as well. So, you know, to look at it, it's a real joy. This is something you wanna hold and turn pages. So I got talking to the editor for a long time and ended up consequently at the back of the queue. So there's like me and 65 other people waiting to get to Dean. And he's such a lovely guy. He's giving everyone five minutes chat as he signs the books. So I read and I just got like, I must be like an error or something to think. So like maybe you wanna go through your thought processes. Well, yeah, I mean, I felt this book launch and I don't, I'm not that interested in the technical side of the running. I guess there are lots of people asking what kind of shoes you wear. But I was really inspired by the ethos kind of that you were just talking about. This is my sense of state, you know, why you do the different ambitions that you have and we've been talking so much about, you know, what's next and if I were to support Gavin on another long run. And I was really inspired by, at the time, I think Dean was talking about doing, running a marathon in each country in the world, each of the UN recognised countries. And I just thought it just piqued my interest. I thought, well, that's cool. And then I thought, when Gavin did downhill from here, so that was the juggle run. I think your thought process was, I wanna do a really big run. Where's a big run in the UK? What about all of it? And I thought, I don't want to go back. That kinds of America. And also realistically, we're not famous. We're not gonna get loads of sponsorship and money. We're gonna have to pay for this ourselves. And so it needs to be affordable. And it's, you know, I got my producer hat on and how to be sensible. So we're wearing Euro-pizza because I would love to travel Europe more and it's affordable and closer. And then I just thought, well, why not all of it? I wonder how big it is. Well, let's get my phone out, do a bit of Google Maps and oh, well, where does Euro-pizza? What about this? I suddenly just had this brain wave of the Orient Express they've trained. I've always, I've always, always wanted to travel on that. It's just the idea of journey and adventure and romance. It's when it was first, I suppose, bounded, you know, when that route started, it was the elite because they went on to the border. But it was all about travel and experience and adventure that was going into the unknown East and doing it, you know, by land and the train and going to the Oriental to Turkey, to Istanbul. And I just thought, well, that's kind of exactly what you're all trying to do. It's about adventure. It's about travel. It's about, you know, exploring our world but on foot in a different way. So I just looked it up and I thought, well, that went from Paris to Istanbul. That sounds like my kind of trip. How long is that? Oh, it's kind of roughly the same as the Appalachian film. Maybe even a little bit less, depending on the route. And I looked up all the stops that the original train went through and that was Paris, Strasbourg, Munich, Vienna, Budapest, Bucharest, Istanbul. And so I'm thinking, yes, please. I would love to go to all those places. Look at that. I'm like, oh, it's only like, it's only about 3,000 or 4,000 kilometers. You can choose that, all right? And so I just thought I would start there holding the coat while Gavin's and the queue waiting to talk to Dean. And so I'm sort of like elbowing my way through the crowd carrying all these coats. And Gavin, Gavin, what do you think about this? And literally by the time we got to the front of the queue, we thought, yeah, why not? Like you said, that's not fun, let's do it. Yeah, and I thought at first, you can't run the whole of Europe. Europe's a whole continent. You can't, that's going to be fast. And then I looked at the route of the old express and it doesn't go from the very, like from Calais, but it does go from Paris to Istanbul. And Istanbul is right on the sort of limit. I mean, Turkey's the furthest that Europe gets. And it's such a historic and incredible court and meeting point of civilizations that they seemed great places to start and finish. And it worked out as about two and a half, 2,300 miles, something like that. So yeah, just a little over twice what I ran John the Groot still lands in. But by then, as I've said it already, I felt my body was in a rhythm and could run roughly a marathon a day. And it was fine. So what could possibly be different this time just because it's twice as long? Very naive. Naivety is a very important skill to nurture. I think you're going to have these adventures in a strange way. Yeah, you need a bit of, I don't know if naivety is the right word, but if you don't get involved in these things, they don't happen, do they? And I think if we... Maybe you could just say, boundless optimism is... Yes, I think that's a nice way of putting it. Because if you were to start enumerating the possible ways in which something can go wrong, yeah, you'll talk as I say, you'll talk about it very quickly. Yeah, let's not forget that most people, sorry, this sounds a bit patronising, but it's my experience that the vast majority of people don't even get to that step of thinking about it. They've already put themselves in a box and gone, oh, that's not for me. And yeah, so... Or even if it's not like a massive adventure, a lot of people talk themselves out of their ambitions or their dreams or their... Something they'd really like to do for themselves. Like, they get caught into the trap of trying to survive daily life, trying to put food on the table, look after your family, and they don't give themselves the time and the opportunity to have a kind of an outlet. I mean, artists, creative people have that, and they make that for themselves. And I guess people go on holiday to exotic places to have a hint of something adventurous, but maybe life-altering experiences aren't for everyone. I don't know. Well, I think a big part that is you do, is that you make people do have to look at the practical side. At the end of the day, we did have to pay for it ourselves. We did have to take time off work, but we still had to pay bills. I still had a mortgage to pay back at home. So when we were first talking about what the trip would be, it was quite hard to get inspired by it, because, well, I certainly was having to have the practical side of having a time-bound thing and earning the cost a certain amount, et cetera, et cetera. And it was, I think the unleashing of it was being inspired by someone else, which is why I think books are really important. It was when I was sat in Dean's book launch, and I was inspired by him and his story and by what Gavin had done previously. And that's what freed my mind a bit to say, okay, fine, we do have to be a little bit practical, but let's not limit ourselves before we've even started to think about it. And that's why I went from thinking about what big runs in Europe might be, to thinking, well, it's still Europe, but what about all of it? And I don't know, I suppose it's understanding that you've got to be able to actually do it. I mean, at the end of the day, you might have kids to feed at home, you might have families, like life doesn't stop. I think that's what's a really interesting thing for us, is you're the one who's doing this thing, you've just got to focus on yourself and your run and your own survival of getting one foot from the other. Is the other people who are supporting you? And certainly in our case, it was me who was then thinking, but how do we do this? How do we make sure that everyone's okay back at home? How do we make sure the flat's all right? How do we make sure that we're not gonna run out of money before we get to hungry? And what are we gonna do? Because you still need to eat, we still need to be able to buy food, so. And we knew that we couldn't possibly afford to stay in hotels or even the cheapest rubbish bed and breakfast, we just couldn't do it. There was no other way, so either we're in a tent, which. Well, that could be the next big sport is ultra bushcraft. You run 100 miles, then you have to kill a wild boar and make a fire, make a fire by rubbing two Boy Scouts together. Yes, so should we look at some photographs? Yeah, absolutely. Right, let's see if our technology works. Yes, that's not too bad. Can I hear you guys? Hopefully. Yes, we can. So, right, I go through the photos and we better not take too long because if we go too long with a podcast, a lot of people get put off watching it because they won't have two hours spare in their day, so. Yeah. Is this... Just choose whichever ones you like. Yeah, is this heat or is this mosquitoes? Oh, we haven't got the picture, but. Oh, sorry, of course. We may have to play a little game when you display it. Yeah, this is you with your blue jacket wrapped around your head in a forest. Yeah, that's mosquitoes. That's probably Bulgaria, I think, because when we're in the Stranger region, which is between Bulgaria and Turkey, it's very hilly, very damp. It's like perfect conditions for mosquitoes. And we got there towards the beginning of summer. So I was being bitten alive and it was just hideous. And then we had all the, like, what was it called again? Spray. Spray, yeah. All the insect repellent in the world, but it just wasn't doing anything. So I've actually had to, I just wrapped my head in, I just tried to cover, so they really went to my ears and came to my nose and eyes. I tried to just cover as much as I could and I ended up running with a weird kind of, like, almost like a spasmotic, repetitive motion, like wafting them away from my face. Yeah, I do look cool. This is one of those unknowns, isn't it? Because one of those hats that you put on, it's like a net. Yeah, if I knew about the existence of such things, I would have gotten myself one. I had mosquito repellent and once I got through the Scottish Highlands, it was so cold, even though I ran at the end of summer, it was still around zero degrees up in the Highlands. And Scotland, like Norway, is famous for having real killer bloody midges and mosquitoes. But I didn't get, because I didn't get bitten once that, mosquito repellent very quickly went into the bin. I'm not sure I got bitten really, but I don't get bitten, but they just want to climb into every single orifice and hide. And that's not much fun. Right, this one's a radner. Looks like you're cooking something lovely in Italian, actually. It's tomatoes, mushrooms and pasta. Yeah, so, I mean, I didn't come to remember who mentioned this. We made our ban, because we, so yeah, we couldn't have afforded to do it by staying in hotels and things, as Kevin did with the juggle run. And I wasn't keen on spending five months sleeping in a tent. And so we, we bought a ban and then, well, an eight-deater car and then ripped out all the seats and watched YouTube videos to try and figure out how to do DIY. We built our gardens and kind of to our specification, which was really good. And I, for me, this is going to be my home for five, six months as we go there and then drive back. And cooking is really important. I mean, of course, it's really important for Kevin to have his, what, five, six thousand calories every day. But I mean, to me, yeah, just, I loved that. I loved being able to cook proper meals. In fact, I cooked. My mum was sending me recipes and I was cooking things in the van that I'd never even cooked at home just to try and mix things up and, you know, just on our little stove, little cool box. And I had this, this, my absolute favorite thing in the van, which my mum did for me. I had a little spice tray. So it was this like kids toy box. So I could kind of a four by four box, it was about, you know, that big. And, and the idea was really colorful. So the idea was that kids could put their little toys in each of the trays and put them in. And so my mum filled each one with different spices and herbs and painstakingly like labelled them all. It felt like when I went to university with her. And so, you know, so that had all the mix of like and do spice as well as everything else. So I could just, I could cook pretty much anything. And it was an absolute joy for me because that's what made me feel like I was actually at home, that I could make nice meals for us and be cozy. And that was, yeah. And also the, we used an old camping stove that could be removed from the van. So a lot of, when you, when you get one of these fans already made, they have a built-in kitchen. But that doesn't mean you can take out a door as ours. You can lift up, take out doors, put on a table and cook outside. And that's a lot more and more used to camping. Because I was totally fit to go. I had to, you know, have to make five camping experiences in my life, which is probably why I was so versed to attend in the first place. But I loved it. And by the end, you know, that was, I mean, we have quite different stories, I suppose, about our journeys. We were together, but Gavin was alone all day not up on a trail somewhere. And I was all day alone in the van sorting out everything else. But for me, my journey was, you know, by the time we set off in March. So we went through the little beast from the east through some of the rain temperatures and all. But by the end, it was really hot. And like, just being able to be very, never really stopped at campsites, you know, very rarely. But being able to just park up somewhere, really quiet up, take my cooker out, sit there, get Gavin's tea or a beer or whatever and just be able to just sit there outside, cook a nice meal, eat under the stars. Yeah, it was glorious. Why do we have houses? Yes, I know. It's lovely being on the road. Gavin, what was it like running through this snow then? How was that equipment wise? Did you have enough of the right clothing? I had seven layers on that day, I think. The day that there's a foot, I don't know if you've got a picture, but there's like a picture of me running. This is just a white void. The photo we're looking at at the moment is one long white road going off, going off into hell. Yeah, we've had several days of off and on snow and the temperature dropped to about minus five or six or something, not terrifyingly cold, but cold enough when you're living in a metal box without heating and you wake up in the morning and your olive oil's turned into jelly. That's the thing I didn't know was possible. But yeah, and I just thought, well, I'm running every day and the whole point of this adventure is to not let anything stop me. So I'm not going to be, there's no form of weather that's going to stop me running. Although I don't do very well in really horribly miserable icy, diagonal, slanting rain, but snow is fine, I love running in snow. The only problem is you've got to make sure you've got the right footwear on. So basically I did the whole thing on two pairs of shoes. So I had trail shoes with extra grip and I had my normal trailers for a tarmac. So I wore the trail shoes. I had like gloves on, I had like two pairs of trousers and I had like seven layers on my top. I just, you know, barreled off into the snow and that was one of my favorite days actually. Just running through this beautifully pristine white wilderness with hardly any sound, just like a few birds and the sound of my footsteps crunching through the snow and nobody around, not another human. And like, I'm the only person making footsteps and I sort of ran through this forest for about an hour and a half and then eventually came down back into the town again. And the weird thing was it wasn't snowing up, it wasn't snowing down in the town, it was just raining drizzly and it was like coming out of a little dream. But yeah, that was a great experience. We've got a mountain bike on the back of the wagon now. Is this something you want to tell us Gavin? No, this is mine. It's a little hybrid bike. I have to tell you, so this was, you know when Gavin was saying earlier, we changed it to optimism, that naivety, so I was very naive about what it would look like to do this trip. And I had these ideas that while Gavin was off running, I'd be traipsing around these cute little markets in Europe and you know, I thought I would be a bit like Emily, you know, with her cute little bag and all purple. Which wasn't the case, but the bike, I loved having it and I used it a lot, not really to go to cute little markets, but I would cycle alongside Gavin if I had a spare day off from chores and things and if Gavin was somewhere that I could cycle. And it helped Gavin, it kept his pace up and it was really nice for me to feel like I was exploring as well. So I loved driving the van, like my van and I, we became best friends. She was like a human, she was the only person I had to talk to. Yeah, the third catch on the story is Roxy, which is the name of the master, the master bongo. The master bongo, but it was really lovely kind of just being able to be on the bike and cycle along and feel like Gavin and the adventure. We got quite competitive at one point because when we left Bratislava, because we just dipped into Slovakia very briefly just because why not? So crossed over the Danube, went into Bratislava, which is a lovely little town. And then there was quite a good sort of cycling trail leaving, crossing back over the Danube and then going into Hungary. So I run and I thought, well, I could cycle with you today. So am I getting this wrong? Yeah, I think you're going into Bratislava. So we've left Vienna. So it's probably two days of running, maybe about 50 miles or so, along the Danube and along the Eurevalo 6 cycling route, which is a cycle route that goes all the way across Europe and we only went that way for a little bit. So we've left Vienna. I spent a really frustrating day in the van doing chores that's so dull. And so I was like, I'm not driving. I don't care. This is a Eurevalo cycle route. I'm cycling. You can run along with me today rather than the other way around. And I meant to just go for a little bit and have that experience. And then cycle back, obviously, and get the van and drive ahead. But it was such a beautiful day and I was really enjoying it. And we ended up going, I cycled almost all the way to Bratislava and Gavin starts getting quite worried. We've done 30K. And you're going to have to cycle 30 kilometers back. And what's the longest you've cycled at this point? Like 10? Yeah, so it kind of goes to be, can we cycle 30 kilometers? Nobody knows. And Gavin's at this point thinking we're literally only a few kilometers to Bratislava where we're going to stop for the night. And if the van drops at Bratislava and collapses, he's thinking I having run 30, 40 kilometers and now I'm going to have to cycle back to go and get ruxi because the van is going to be collapsed somewhere. And I'm like, yes, that might happen. Oh, well. So he stops and had a glass of wine as we do just to make sure that you could make a way back. He fueled me with alcohol and then just grabbed me back on my way. So I did another 30 kilometers back, picked up ruxi and then go back to Bratislava. Yeah, so that's why we went to Bratislava. I've just stopped on the photo of you and Dean Karnazes in the booby shop. Oh yes, there he is. Yeah. Dean spends a lot of time in the van. A lot shorter than I expected. It's like five, six or something. Yeah, yeah, I gathered that. But which is weird because Scott Jurek, the other super famous ultra runner is like five foot 11 or six foot or something, he's really tall. So it just shows you there's no, there is no ultra runner physique really. No. It's all stated in mind. And I think, I think Dean Karnazes diet has come more in line with Scott Jurek's now because Scott was one of the first plant-based ultra runners. And whereas... He used to like fold up, fold up pizzas and something like that. Yeah, yeah. And pizzas and stuff. And now I think you get to a certain age where I'm finding this in my running now. If I eat the wrong things, they sit really heavy in my stomach and the pain that that causes, I'm not talking about a stitch now, although you get a stitch as well. But the discomfort that causes is more unpleasant than anything the running produces. Yeah, digestive issues can be problematic and it doesn't help if you just throw anything in there, which is up to me. I would have eaten quite badly if her add-in hadn't been there because I would have had no energy to actually cook anything sensible. So I think we were mostly vegetarian during that trip. Well, I certainly, I can't, maybe only when my dad came briefly to take over for a couple of weeks while I was looking after a gran. That was probably the only time I had any meat during the run. So not necessary. Yes, oh, you've got a tortoise. Yeah, that was an, it was like, and that was a fall gear as well. Yeah, that was, a very rare occasion of actually running with someone. A random friend, Sarah, came over to visit for a few days and we just run up an annoyingly steep hill at the end of a running day. But because I had someone else there, it was nice and distracting. And then we saw this tortoise ambling across the roads and it wasn't a busy road, but there were enough cars racing up and down it. Lunatic speed, I just thought it was gonna get crushed. So I just picked up and took it hopefully in the direction it was going and it wasn't to do it on the other side. They get around those tortoises because I've seen them in the Kruger National Park in South Africa and I've also come across them when I've been running in Florida of all places. I don't think it's the same ones. Oh. Yeah, but they met the running technique of the ambling technique of the tortoise is definitely to be recommended. I was gonna say, they're the ones that don't fly, isn't it? So I don't know how that's happened. I'm just fascinated by your trainers, Gavin. So it looks like you've got a pair of Brooks on there. Is that right? Yeah, because I have to get really annoyingly technical for people who don't know how to run. I overpronate quite a lot. So I have my foot rolls out on one side. And let's just get this clear in our heads because I have this problem, but I underpronate, I'm led to believe. So as I'm running, if they're my feet and I'm running like this, my heel tends to turn in. And so as I run forward, the back outside edge scrapes the ground and then I land as you're supposed to, right? Or as is more healthy for you, so on the forefoot. So the back outside edges of my trainers run out, wear out really, really quickly. Are you saying it's the other? Oh, no, I should have to think about it now. But we are one of the edges of each of my trainers runs out quicker than the other. So I tend to have some support to just force my legs into a straight because maybe I'm a bit bandy-legged when I run. I haven't really observed my own gait very often. Do you get pain in your IT bands? That's the outside of your knees, basically. No, I think I get pain under my patella, of my knee, but I don't know. I don't think it's on one side of the other necessarily. Yeah. My feet are actually quite straight. I think they probably roll in a bit, actually. Yeah, got you, yeah. Brooks Brooks are really good shoes. They're extremely comfortable. I've just bought two pairs for my next challenge. But the only thing I've got that, I'm in the sort of quandary with running shoes because I've never actually found, I've tried it pretty much every brand and I honestly don't think they make a huge amount of difference. Once you wear them in, they're almost equally as good or bad because the less support you have the more naturally you're forced to run. So you might have to put more effort into running in a natural way by lifting your feet higher and landing on your four feet, as you're saying. But you'll get less injuries that way. So it's sort of like, but for people who haven't thought too hard about running and haven't really worked on it, maybe supportive shoes are better because the impact is reduced, et cetera, et cetera. So there's all these skills of thought and there's vast amounts of relevant. Did you, for this run, did you wear a size bigger shoes or two sizes bigger? No, well, I always wear, I always make sure I've got like about three quarters of an inch at the front. I very rarely have much space at the side because I've got quite wide feet. So it's quite hard to get. I get the widest fitting and it's still cramped. I've just bought Brooks extra-wide. So not wide, but the extra, they're in the post at the moment. So I'm looking forward to seeing, but they're in my actual size. Right. And for people listening or watching, it's because when you run over a certain distance in a day, so let's just say about marathon distance, your feet start to swell up and they can actually swell two sizes. And it's then that you start to get the blisters because obviously they're, your toes are bunching into the front of the shoe. And I guess pushing your heel out as well. Yeah, I haven't really tried, I've not really tried buying different sizes to change during the day. Did you get many blisters? I got, yeah, I got blisters this time. It's great. Running from John who got a salami's in, I had no blisters whatsoever. This time round I did have some. But not, it didn't cripple me in any way. I just got a hot needle out, hot them, you know. Yeah. Got plaster on and keep going, didn't it? They weren't, yeah, they weren't crippling. There was no real foot trauma. So on your map here, it's Paris to Istanbul. Was that the actual route? Yeah, yeah. Because that's the route of the Orient Express. Yeah, so it leaves Garda l'Est, which is in the heart of Paris. And then I headed out along the Marne. Yeah. It's very pretty routes actually. Very nice route to exit Paris. Yeah, so we stopped at the main station stops that the train stopped at. So those cities, I mentioned Paris, Strasbourg, Munich, Vienna, Budapest, but the rest of Istanbul. And we tried to stop at the correct train station in each of those cities as well. But the route to get from city to city, we made some windings. Yeah, yeah, because if I'd been slavishly following the train tracks, if I'd been able to find them, I wouldn't have run across the Trans-Alpina in Romania because the original train route, sort of cut down south to avoid the mountains and then went east. So I didn't want that experience. I wanted to have the experience of like running through the Carpathian Mountains, you know, of legend. And also the Alps as well, I mean, the bit when we were in Salzburg heading up to Vienna, and we actually, rather than just going straight across, we sort of did this little loop like that because the Scotsman and Gavin saw the Alps, and it was like, I know we need to go that way, but I'm going that way. Yeah, so it's like a puppy dog going, why am I first to run on the flat road, is that? So yeah, I did make sure I got up from the Alps amongst the snow. You got some, you got a quote of Dean Karnazis for your book as well. Yes, yeah, we very kindly helped out. We had to, he inspired the whole, well, he inspired you to start running in the first place and he inspired me to come up with the route. Yeah, it just makes, it just makes sense. Was it difficult to get the quote? Did you just email, did your publisher just email him or? Well, I think, well, I rather basically made friends with him. She was tweeting throughout the, and keeping up the social media throughout the adventure. So I think you sent quite a few tweets his way and he replies. We bonded, there's this bit, it's really ridiculous, sorry, but it's quite funny. When I was reading his book, there's this bit where he's doing some training runs in Greece. So his family is from Greece, although he grew up in America, he's the one who lives in America now. And he was about to do the, he made the spotathlon and everyone knew him, he's really famous, so he kept, he was passing this little shop somewhere in the wilderness and they spotted him and recognized him and the man beckoned him in from his run and gave him a watermelon. He just was hilarious and he basically had to carry on the rest of his marathon training run, carrying this giant watermelon. And this became his route. Every time he went past this really kind man and the shop would give him a watermelon and Dean was like, oh, that's really kind, thank you. And obviously he couldn't leave it. And I think Dean probably didn't get this because he was probably never a teenage girl in the 90s, but for those of you who were a teenage girl in the 90s, you were probably obsessed with dirty dancing as I was. And there's this scene in dirty dancing where the baby first meets Patrick Flasie and goes, oh, I carried a watermelon. I just, I just was hilarious. I think I tweeted and I was just like, I've just been reading Dean's book and basically he carried a watermelon. And so then after that, every year, apparently there's a National Watermelon Day. Dean would tweet me and say, hi, and I would send him a picture of a watermelon. It just became this thing. They should have a wrist now in recent years on there where you have to grab a watermelon. Ideally it was two watermelons would be easier because it would balance you. You've got big enough hands, one on each hand. I think anyone who had to do it would refute that. So I'm going to make a guess here. Eradna, do you have an iPhone? I do, yeah. And you took that stunning picture of Gavin that's on the cover of his book. No, actually, that one was, that I can't take credit for that. So I, for two weeks, in Romania, sadly, when you did the amazing Carpathians, I, my gran needed a carer and a puffer and my parents went away. So I had to leave our trip for a couple of weeks and Gavin's dad took over, which I think was an amazing experience. I know I think two weeks was probably enough, but yeah, so that photo was taken by your dad, Ian. Yeah. Does your dad have an iPhone, Gavin, just out of interest? He does not. He doesn't, actually, so I'm afraid if your theory is that iPhones take the best photographs, it might not be correct. No, what it is is I've noticed through doing the podcast that iPhones, they do this bizarre thing. I'm not sure if it's just with video and stills, but they use the old, the old form, the old dimensions. So everyone obviously uses 916 now, which is what, for people at home, that's what you're seeing the Zoom picture in now, that's 916, whereas the kind of, if you can call it old school, is the more square television, the old school television set size? You have a place of formats and I have to know, I cry often when I'm taking photographs on a run, I quite often see something that I think is going to be Instagram friendly. So I'll take it in a square format so I get the most pixels from my money. Yes, bloody Instagram, they've screwed it up for all of us. I wonder whether your dad probably used a real camera? Yeah, actually, he probably did his quite old school. He used to take photographs for the National Trust for Scotland, so if you want someone to take photographs of mountains, then he's your man. He is also an artist, and a graphic designer, so I mean, the man knows what he's doing. That's true, that's true. And you met a lot of lovely people, we can see, I've got to the end of your photos now, so I'm going to put us back on the big screen. There we are, eh, voilà, yeah, looks like you met some hospitable people and you're camping with them around the fire. Yeah, well, we've driven for quite a while trying to find somewhere to pitch up for the night and around this friend, David, was over. We ended up in the Austrian, in these beautiful pastures on this hillside in Austria, but we just didn't know where the hell we were and we found this private road, and we're sort of driving to this beautifully manicured farmland thinking this isn't right, we shouldn't be here. So, well, but then you spotted someone by the side of the road. Yeah, we're so lost, and I was really fed up of driving around the ages and we'd gone up some little road, and this is absolutely, you know, a terrifying moment where in the van we're going up quite a steep, like one road, a bit of a single file thing, and a car came the other way and I remember having to, I just passed a crossing point and having to reverse it. I was absolutely done, I was so tired and fed up and then trundling along, going past this big farmhouse thinking, I think we might be trespassing there's this girl on the side planting seeds. And I remember there was eye contact, she just looked up and smiled, and I smiled and I was just trundling along and then on her land, and then we got to a bit where I was like, okay, that is definitely private road. And I didn't think twice, I kind of grabbed the satnav that had taken me up this way, jumped out and ran back to this girl and she ran over. And it turned out it was her parents' farm, she was, it's a thing, she'd been a nurse in Lunds, which is the town nearby. And she'd actually just been traveling herself and she was just delighted to see us trespassing. She said, you know, if I rarely get to meet new people here on the farm, and I just asked if she knew somewhere that we could walk up and sleep for the night, her mum came out, her mum was just, just lovely. And was immediately like, well obviously you should stay here. So they pointed us towards this little spot on their farmland where we could happily and safely stay. And then Maria, the girl who was planting the seeds and actually her mum was also Maria. So Maria and her sister Elizabeth came over while we were cooking dinner and said, we're just about to get a campfire going, do you want to come and join us? And it was probably, I think probably my favourite night, there's quite a few of really amazing nights, actually. But we ended up going down to the farm and sitting by the campfire and they made, Maria senior, it's just been making bread for the next day, how do you do? And so they had like a dough and so we had these sticks and you wrap the dough and like, you know, kind of press it onto the stick and then toast it in the fire and then eat that dipped in sauce. And Maria is the second of seven children. The eldest wasn't there, the others, you know, were coming and going. So I think there were about five of them and then her dad, Joseph, came to join us as well. It was my friend, David, was visiting us at the time and had just turned 40 and it was just one of those moments when we've just met this family and we're all just there around this campfire on this farm. I don't even know where in Austria, I couldn't tell you exactly where we were. And Maria senior, she'd actually travelled a lot when she was younger before she was married and just got a guitar out and it was just one of those moments that, you know, it sounds so cliche, but it's happened. She started singing Country Roads by John Denver. She did. It's quite, you know, surreal. It was quite surreal. And like, given that, you know, what a couple of hours before we were just driving around and I thought, I think I'm done with this. I just can't do it. I don't know where to park. I'm really tired and fed up. That did happen more than once actually. There was another moment where you were at the end of your teller because I think you, around there was trying to make a short film on the concept of home and she just met this paddleboarder guy who was married to the Thai women and they had a food fan. And the idea was to interview them for her film but for whatever reason, we didn't manage to cut with them. It was just getting a bit demoralizing. We stopped by the side of this lake and there was a lovely sunset. So it was quite a deal, but I think you'd reach the end of your tether and sort of... I think I just, I kind of felt a bit fed up of my life just being, you know, going from A to B. I felt like I was missing out on having those human connections. I was seeing some beautiful things that you were off doing your attention. I felt like, for me, it's all about the people that I would meet on the way and I was just getting... I was getting a bit frustrated about that and I also have missed that conviviality of sitting with friends and just having a glass of wine and just, you know, real life. I was sort of a bit sick of always being on an adventure and wanted a slice of normality, I guess. So that's quite... I mean, it's a big achievement driving to Istanbul and I'm assuming you drove back again. Yeah, it's... You can't underestimate the importance of... and the challenge of support, you know. This is one thing that's not written enough about in... a lot of these running adventure books is the role of the support person or support team. Some of them have teams, you know. Because, you know, you thought that you'd have a lot... As you said, I thought you'd have quite a lot of free time and I thought you'd have a lot of free time. But it turns out, you know, no, when you're living in a van, you've got to make sure you've got water, you've got somewhere to park, you've got somewhere to source food, diesel, somewhere to stay for the night, you know. And all of these challenges can take up an hour or two, you know. So there's not really a lot of time left, you know, once you've factored all that in. But the funny thing was that you do... I remember thinking, you know, people who travel alone and I know that, Chris, you have this, you know, when you just kept saying that the people that you meet and, you know, the kindness of strangers, I suppose, that it was often in those moments. So that moment where I was feeling a bit frustrated and actually, Kevin, you really spotted that and you took us to the foundless lake that we could park near at Kinsey. The most beautiful spot. There's absolutely fiery suns there, really close to the out. So the out's a little pink across this really icy, very, very sort of grey-blue, very still lake. And you just think, I remember thinking, okay, it's all right, I don't need normal anymore. I mean, what could you possibly hope for with this? And this woman steps out from the trees. I genuinely have no... Well, I now know where she came from. But it was deserted and then this woman just stepped out. But it looked like she stepped out of a bush. Like she'd been cued by an off-camera director right now. I mean, the same as the Sunlight in Asphab. It feels like such a moving moment and it really was. It was magic, but it was just spontaneous and natural. And Kevin and I just sitting there sort of taking the scene and she just steps out, kicks the trainers off and walks into the lake and she's thinking, what is happening? I should just, you know, patting in the water and we just get chatting and she comes over and she speaks really good English. This is from Germany. We have a really, really lovely chat. And then she goes, oh, we have a little cottage, you know, just over there, hence stepping out from the trees because she had a little path. Would you like to come for a glass of wine? And like, honestly, I felt like singing Hallelujah. It was just, you know. And we had such a beautiful evening. We ended up, she said, you must bring your van in and park it on our driveway. Don't stay in a car park. Come and sit with us. Matt, her husband was lovely, had some local beers, a glass of wine, looking over the lake. We listened to a Hawaiian slack-pea guitar for fans of such things. Yeah, lovely. And yeah, and then, I mean, we're still in touch with all these friends who kind of just kept us energised to keep going again the next day. Yeah, so it wasn't all endured. I mean, this is probably gonna be the most idyllic-sending podcast in the series of podcasts that you've done, you know, because most of your guests are like, bootnecks, you've been that much to cross deserts and potting in waters. And we're here, we're describing a simple Hawaiian listening to Hawaiian music. Hey, it's cool, bought the t-shirt podcast for a reason. I love these chats, Gavin. You know, I wish I'd love to do a lot more of them. It's a problem with YouTube is it works on a certain algorithm. And I'm not a person that works on any kind of algorithm. I just want to chat to who I want to chat to. So in a way, purely from a professional point of view, I cut my nose off despite my face, but it's, you know, I live my life, I do what I want to do. And so, Gavin, you were gonna read some of your book. Yeah, there are, you know, in contrast to that, there were some scary challenging moments. Maybe we'll talk about the Turkish presidential election before we sign off, but before we get into that adventure, I just got a little vignette, which is about running through the Stranger region in Bulgaria and coming across some local wildlife unexpectedly. So, so we're very near the border actually with Turkey at this point. So I've begun to see border patrol cars prowling the roads along which I now run, looking for intrepid and illegal immigrants from Turkey coming through the nearby fields. It won't be long now. If not today, then tomorrow we'll see me enter Europe's sole Muslim majority nation. Too conspicuous to be of real concern to the police or so I think. I run past warehouses, then find a food path out into forested countryside, leaving the tarmac for the relief of the trail. During a brief peace stop, I hear the voices of a man and woman calling to their horses, or so I imagine, but I never see the riders. A little later, I run past a group of loggers, they're truck parked in a clearing, having a cigarette break. As I run past, I'm not alone, but nobody seems especially concerned or interested in my presence. Clouds of midges now join the parties warming around my jacket shredded head. I find myself falling a gurgling river, an experience I've not had since the Carpathians. Everything seems to be going well, until the path abruptly turns down to the river and stops, leaving me floundering amongst the rocks, scratching my head for a way forward. Wondering if I can hop over the rocks to the other side of the river without falling in. I begin to doubt the sense of the route Google Maps has found for me. This path through the woods has evidently not been traveled by anyone for years. Still, some shreds of it must remain, I hope, as I teeter over the river, plunging the habitual single fruit accidentally into the flow. Optimism always wins over common sense. My trail finding takes on an architectural, sorry, archeological dimension, sending me back in time, past the overgrown remains of a long crumbled ancient bridge and roadway. I force myself through bushes and overfallen tree trunks, eventually finding the preserved remains of a road, which clearly hasn't been in use for at least 60 years. It once took locals through the forest, but now the forest has taken it back. The not-a-road sidles around rocky cliffs and cuts through densely packed trees until abruptly, I hit a 10 meter wide gap, two meters deep, where a hunk of the road surface has seemingly been bitten away. I clamber down and up the other side of the menu routine and press on, very sure that I'm on a path taken by nobody at all in recent memory. It is both exciting and frightening at the same time. If this way becomes impassable, what on earth will I do? My peace slows to a crawl with short stretches of running where ancient tarmac wins out briefly over the underbrush. I have no phone signal, so I can't send a text, and my situation isn't quite problematic enough to warrant an email from the garment. I have an allowance of only a handful of these per month. In a strange way, the sound of distant logging, chainsaws and yelling are almost comforting. I'm not the only human out here. I follow the mendacious blue line on Google Maps to a perilously steep forest path, only to discover it's veering up in the often entirely wrong direction. I backtrack to where I missed the junction. This route is so long gone that all navigational definitions no longer make sense and try again. Finally, the road becomes a recently maintained gravel path, and as I feel my feet lift once more into a trot, I hear a strange snort from somewhere to my left, and squint through a gap in the hedgerow to see something that chills my blood and excites me in equal measure. Wild boar, at least eight of them, as large as calves and a lot more dangerous, the creatures rumble and head the hooves toward and past me on a thankfully parallel path. Jet black with long tusks, shoulder muscles piled over one another like boulders, the herd is magnificent and terrifying in equal measure. In a moment, it's gone, leaving only the echo of hooves and the memory of something almost primeval. My thoughts wander to what I'd have done if they charged towards me on my own path, and I find myself unable to formulate a sensible answer. Do you think I'll end there? God, I must be a bit primal because whenever I hear about wild boars, I just get hungry. I think of the burgers that my mate makes out of them. Sorry to all the animal lovers out there. Get your meaty chair, it's still deep inside you somewhere. So, right, two things I wanted to ask, and then I'm gonna ask you guys what your next plans is on this amazing highway called Life or what challenges this has maybe further inspired you to do. Did you run for a charity, Gavin? I wanted to ask you that. I raised a little bit of money for two mobility charities, Wiskids and Limpar. I don't raise a huge amount of money, but I, yeah, raised a little bit along the way. Okay, can people- Those are my sort of ongoing charities that I try to work with whenever I do one of these adventures. Can you just give them to me again, and I'll put a link for those charities below the video in- Yeah, sure. Limpar. Is that Limpar's in arms and legs? Yes, that's a charity for our recent amputees trying to become physically able again and take part in sports activities and things. And then there's Wiskids, and what they do is they provide better wheelchairs and mobility aids to children who are just otherwise given the bog standard NHS wheelchairs that you manually trundle along. Yes, that's an important thing when you're in that situation. For me, it's like, my stuff is about what amazing things I can do with my body, and I sort of, I feel, you know, bad for people who don't have those opportunities, but I think with what those charities are about are as allowing people who have mobility issues to be more active. So- And the final thing I was going to ask you, did you put on weight or did you lose weight or did you stay the same? No, I've definitely lost weight. So I think, I think I went down to about maybe six or seven percent fat at the end. I had a six pack for the first and possibly only time in my life by the end of it. So all you need to do, people to gain a six pack is just run 20 miles a day for 110 days over the mountain. Just run to Istanbul. That's all. The benefit of running the Orient Express as opposed to taking the train is, Agatha Christie doesn't kill you. You don't get murdered. No, but I did think I did think that there was a chance that I might end up in a Turkish prison. I wouldn't tell the whole story in great detail because it's in the book and I want people to read it to buy it. But I did take a really strong turn crossing the mountains that I said, this Turkish town called Viz where I accidentally somehow managed to wander into a military base. Somehow, somehow, you know, like when you cross that fence which admittedly is fallen on the ground but you decide to trample over it and ignore all the signs. All the signs were in Turkish and I don't read Turkish, so. So it doesn't count. Yeah, I sort of, I came across the cell and there's a little sentry post and there's these two young soldiers. They look like they're on military service because they're only about 18 or 19 or something. And they've both got rifles and one smoking cigarette and they're both chatting looking in the opposite direction. And I'm running towards them at speed and light. And I think probably running at two young men with rifles and surprising them is not the best, is not the best notion. So I started going, excuse me, hi. And then they're baffled. They don't know what to do, but they sort of, and they don't speak English. So I'm like running, running, sort of miming, running foolishly. And they call for support and they, this, you probably know the name of them better than I do. This massive, all-terated vehicle comes up like a people carrier thing. And I'm encouraged up into the car. And then the chap who I'm guessing, he's like a lieutenant or something. He sort of starts talking to me in English. He says, oh, I'm a runner too. And he runs 10K a day. He said, well, we make friends. This is going to be okay. But then he drives me down to the base. And then I'm taken into this little, tiny little chamber opposite and even more senior officer, like one stage up perhaps from that. And he doesn't speak much English. And so I'm thinking, I'm sure. I mean, this is the day of the presidential election in Turkey, which is quite controversial because there's some rumors that Erdogan might not be how should we, you know, how should we say this? It might not have been entirely demographic. It might not be entirely demographic. Anyway, so I'm being interrogated, you know, very convivially, thankfully. And I can only, I can't really text, you know, because I'm not really going to just let me do whatever I want. I'm sort of under a kind of house arrest, I guess. And, but I do manage to say, can I just text my girlfriend? She's waiting for me somewhere. So I text something like, hi, I'm with some Turkish soldiers. They're giving me tea. Maybe some time. So they gave me a cup of tea and as soon as I got that, I thought, well, anyone offers you tea, they're not probably going to string you up by heels and hit you with sticks. And eventually it was fine. I'm a very, very friendly. I managed to show them the visa on my phone, the only form of idea I had that I'd entered the country legally, although admittedly on foot, which is kind of unusual. Nice tea in Turkey as well. Yeah, very, very nice. Lots of sugar they have it with, don't they? Yeah, slightly. It was slightly disturbing when one of them passed me his phone where he's using Google Translate to communicate with him. He said, Erdogan won, exclamation mark. And he goes, ha ha, and I look at it and I go, yeah. And I think, is he being ironic? Is he pro Erdogan? Is he saying that? So I just, I just try to remain as much as possible. And they just, they let us on our way, but it was, yeah, it was quite a, that was quite a hairy moment because I don't know if you've seen Midnight Express, but I was saying, you don't want to be in a Turkish prison if you can avoid it. I know it's a time that you, at least you went to Turkey legally. It was also the time when you were an illegal immigrant in Romania. Yeah, I thought, yeah, just to be different, I break into Romania. So... And the time when you had a police escort to the border in Bulgaria as well. I mean, it wasn't, it wasn't unfraud. It's quite difficult, it turns out, to run across borders because, although even if they're in the Schengen agreement in Europe where, you know, there's only nominal borders, there's still someone there to look at your passport and just check that you're legit. Well, this wasn't in the Schengen. No, no, but, well, we thought, I thought that Romania was part of the Schengen accord. I just didn't think, you know, and I saw this little barrack. It was literally one white metal bar and a sentry post and nobody at it. And the sign said Romania. And I thought, oh, great. So I ducked under it and just kept running. And then I noticed there's a car. That was your first clue, wasn't it? There was a police car, or it was an unmarked police car parked by a few hundred yards out and there's two barley men came out. So yeah, basically told me to delete all the photos from my phone and send me back over the border. And then right now to come back, having just crossed the legitimate border at a sensible crossing point, which had to do with you trying to come back and get me. And what was it? What was it like getting to Istanbul Station that your RV? It was such a relief. But by that point, I'd sort of normalised the process of running. So it wasn't like I staggered across the finish line on my last legs, you know. I basically sort of jogged happily up to the station. The only reason you were slower was just because it was really busy, so you were dodging. Yeah. Because we didn't generally, we stayed away from cities and picked up the main stops. We wanted to be out in the countryside where it was easier to run, easier to park and, you know, wild camp. But yeah, obviously running through Istanbul. I remember, because I was waiting there for you. We did, you know, like, kind of breakthrough things. And the only reason you were a bit slower was you were dodging in between people on the paper. Yeah, I mean, I thought it was the one strangest thing after being so long in the middle of nowhere by running through the wilderness in Bulgaria and the small villages in Turkey to suddenly find yourself in a major city. And see other runners. Finally, like, a few people were running. Wow. Wow. Because I hadn't, people, here's the thing. Nobody runs, like, east of Austria. No, it's not. If you're running there, you're normally running from a, you know, a brutal dictator or something. Running away from dogs. I literally had dozens and dozens of encounters with feral dogs in Romania. That's a whole other story, but it's in the broadcast to the history of why that happened. Final thing then, guys. So how am I going to get on? I'm going to attempt to run to 200 miles. Around a track? Yeah, I'm saying non-stop. And by non-stop, what I mean is I'm not going to take, like, three weeks to do it or something. It's going to be, like, a one-off thing. Whether I need to get my head down for a couple of hours here and there will remain to be seen. It's around... I'm going to attempt standing by, I think, to go and lie down for a bit. Yeah, I'm hoping that the running track will let me use their... I've just got to write that down. I've got to call them today. I'm hoping they're going to let me use their changing room. As a sort of, you know, I don't know if we have a cooker in there or something, or a kettle at least and maybe an icebox or something. And the idea is that the monotony of running 800 laps around a track is representing the monotony of being homeless. The boredom factor, again, the same thing. The fact I'm giving up some, if not all of my Christmas, is kind of my... Yeah, are you prepared for it to go more than two days? Yeah. It will take whatever it takes. Obviously, the quicker I get done, if I can get it done in two and a half day or two and a quarter days, then I get home on Christmas Eve. If not, then I have to stop plodding the streets because they'll shut the running track. But I will get it done by a hook or by crook. And yeah, I'm highlighting the issue of homelessness, which is something that affects more... I'm not sure the right word, but per-ratio affects more ex-service people than any other group is what I'm trying to say. As with my last two challenges, so the running the UK is a quadruple distance Ironman. I try to raise awareness of veterans' mental health issues and also demonstrate as someone that's been there that there's a real great life once you change a few paradigms in your head and learn to deal with trauma rather than let it sort of control you. So that's it. Are you hitting the running track on the 22nd and running? Yeah. Your mental state is going to be the big... Even though it might sound crazy to say that physical issues aren't going to be the big problem, but actually because it's running round and round around the track, I think your mental state will be the thing to focus on. Particularly when it gets... I don't know how much sleep you're planning on getting, but if you're running through the night, that's going to be quite a challenge as well because the only way I managed to run through the night was by being in a beautiful place where I can look at the trees and listen to the sound of the birds and so I don't know how much you have to sort of distract your mind or to keep you on a straight and narrow while you're dealing with it. Yeah. Well, I worked out if I listened to audiobooks or a podcast and the podcast for three hours long, it's only X amount of podcast I've got to listen to and then I'm finished, right? Yeah. Well, you should hold off on trying to do as much of it as you can without. And it sounds like completely weird advice, but try and do as much without any audio assistance until you get to the point where you really need it because when you then use it as a sort of recovery or survival strategy, then it's so much more beneficial. Otherwise, it just becomes background and then you won't have the benefit. It's like your grandma says, don't put on your coat in the house wait till you're outside and coat. Yeah, there's a big area of not knowing for me because obviously I can go by the 24 hour race we did where you guys all managed to knock off like a hundred miles. But then there was a slight terrain there, wasn't there? It certainly wasn't as flat as a running track. Yeah. There was a few hills nothing huge but there were hills, wasn't there? There were a couple of little hills that you'd have to be at the end of walking. And there was some running across grass I seem to remember or fields. Yeah, some slippery bits by the end because we had a thousand runners traipsing around saying dozens and dozens of times. Yeah, and then there was a lane about a half a mile lane wasn't there, we had to run up. And then of course every time you wanted food or drink you had to actually sort of stop go back to your tent or whatever it might be sort that out and then continue. Whereas for me that's not going to be an issue because it will just be a case of drink. Thank you. You have a table with you're going to have snacks on a table or something. Yeah, I'm not going to like overthink this. I'm just going to sort of hit the running track, plonk stuff on the side of the track. There'll be no shortage of volunteers to help me. So you're going to have people run with you at times? Yeah, people are welcome to come and run. I'm not always the most sociable runner simply because for a start it's quite a meditative experience for me being in the zone. That doesn't mean at times it's not really nice to just have someone to chat to. Yeah, I'm just saying that I prefer to do 90% of it by myself but every so often it's nice to have something else to share. What I found really hard on my juggle towards the end, because nobody met me in Scotland and there's just nobody up there's no one really going to come and meet you in the Highlands. But when I got into England people started to appear and it either went one of both ways either they really supported you or it was a bit of a hindrance to be honest. Because you have to be sociable and nice. It's just little things like when I'm hanging out I'm just exhausted but I'm still going. It's like I don't want someone running in front of me. It's like I don't need a pacemaker or something, right? Yeah. Mentally it kills my buzz, Gavin. Believe it or not you can have a buzz when you're absolutely physically shattered. You've got something going on in your head that keeps you going and when someone is running out front as if to say come on, come on it kills that adrenaline. That would be kind of annoying. It's difficult because nobody they wouldn't really understand where your head is at at that point. It's not something that most people will ever experience. And the other thing as well and I've been fiercely independent ever since I was a kid my grand would try and hold my hand across the road when I was five and I'd just always shake I hated it. It's just part of my personality, right? And it's when people come and join you and then they start telling you what to do it's like oh fuck off. Right, no Chris, no, no, no. Right, we're going to get you a hot bath and get him some and it's like shut up if I wanted that I'd ask for it, thank you very much. Just let me do my thing. I sound really un... They're only trying to be helpful but it can be a little misgated at times if you... It's difficult to find that balance of not wanting to seem ungrateful. You know on a running track you've got the little trough that the... where they put the water for what's that steeple chase or something? Yeah. I'm only trying to be helpful when I push them in there and I'm going to fill it with piranhas as well. You might find you want to jump in there as well to get your legs well I'm going to take I've got a kind of utility box that I bought for my little boys toys like a big box and I've just realised there's no holes in it so it's waterproof I think I might fill it up two thirds of the water and then just get the crew to chuck the odd bag of ice in there and when I got 10 miles from land's end my IT bands in the outside of my knees were so painful even taking painkillers and drinking tozza rum they were still agony I mean agony as in I could run 500 meters and that was it I had to stop and the guys had this spray ice because we couldn't get any proper ice and they were just holding this spray ice on my knees for like 20 30 seconds at a time then I was massaging them like this and then I could run for another 500 meters and then we had to stop and do it it was utter agony so I'm hoping an ice bath on the side of the track might I know that from experience because I took part in a study at Middlesex Uni and they made us run a marathon and then they dumped me in 6 degree water up to my waist after the marathon I was the first agonising thing I've ever experienced but immediately after I go out I could run up and down stairs after a marathon I would not normally run at proper speed I would not normally be able to walk around very easily and the next day I was strolling around like nothing had happened it was so incredible it just stopped all the swelling from happening the post traumatic period of or whatever happened the tissues inflaming the inflammation of the tissues that have been torn and that's what's happening the ice stops that that would definitely do it I don't know if it's helpful on a short run but it comes with no scientific basis but I'm running the Orient you Gavin didn't have any injuries and was actually really fit and I think part of the reason for that was that he wasn't just running so we were living in a tiny bat so there was lots of ending and stretching and twisting just to get things, pull the bed out so we could sleep on the few days that we had so we had a day off in each of those cities and then one or two days what we just had to do adamant stuff and things would break from the van that I couldn't cope with by myself so on the days of you weren't just sitting with your feet up you were either mixing the van or on the cities we were walking for miles and miles and miles and actually that helped I think keep you in good shape so that you didn't have injuries because I suppose you were working your whole body rather than just the same muscle so I don't know how that translates to when you're doing a very intense one only for a few days but things like things like stretching or if you have a few people do a bit of yoga whatever it is just something else twisting getting your back muscles going I think those sorts of things actually helped strengthen your whole body and that's why compared to your jog or ground where you were constantly doing injuries, this was much longer you didn't have a single injury or back pain or anything with the 24, because I've done three of those 24 hour races the longer I stopped to rest and sat down the worse it was what's the longest you've run on those ones saying Gavin? the one I did with you was 102 miles I went back twice after that but I only managed 96 either it's just getting older I just had a bad day but I don't know something just went right that day that first time and it might be something to do with the novelty the fact that there weren't too many runners but yeah I think I was just able to push through the pain a lot more on subsequent occasions I think I just I think maybe I did allow myself to rest too much because the thing is as soon as you sit down time accelerates massively this is really weird I'm like I would say to her I've only been here 5 minutes we stopped for lunch on running the oil and I think I've been there for 10 minutes 15 minutes and she said you've been here an hour I get back out there so yeah I know you will have to rest and you will have to stop and stretch and eat and everything but just try and keep that try and keep that down to a minimum and keep moving even when you're resting sitting and lying down your body desperately wants to do it but as soon as you do it everything stops seizing up the muscles will just start just really rebelling because they think they've stopped they don't know that you're going to do it again got it so what's next for you guys then has this inspired you to do something else I'm guessing it has well you probably just want to travel more once you're allowed that yeah well I mean it's not so running related that the thing for me I loved travelling in that way you write about this a lot in your books about the way that you see the world it's not just flying into nowhere seeing the city for a couple of days I'm flying out it's all the bits in between that no one ever sees I absolutely love the van swimming in lakes and rivers it's got the travel bug in me and it changes the way that you want to travel and the way that you want to interact with people and see the world and in life it's about hopefully philosophical but it's about you know kind of being inspired and just thinking well let's give something try taking risks and therefore getting bigger rewards putting yourself in uncomfortable situations but that's what has changed me I'm just desperate to travel when we can I bet all of us I think and Gavin what's up for you have you got anything on the running front well I've got I'm working on a project at the moment called 50 at 50 because I hit that terrifying age barrier a couple of weeks ago and I celebrated by running 50 miles down the canal from where was I again? Layton buzzard to Brentford and that's to kickstart this project where I'm going to do 50 different runs they don't all need to be ultras some of them will be short runs I want to do a park run I've never done one believe it or not but some of them are ultra races I've always wanted to do admittedly because of Covid a lot of races are still cancelled or virtual I'm probably going to do a lot of more self-set challenges like there's the capital ring which is 65 miles around London and then I want to go and run the West Highland way again and I want to run up the the 5th East Coast Trail which is like 160 miles or something did you run the West Highland way when it was dry? Not entirely no I ran it in a storm and all I had was my training shoes and there was rivers running across that way at some points to every 200 metres It wasn't as bad as that but it can be brutal up there so when I got to what's that village when you descend down into it it's the first village in the nation to have electricity Oh is that Kinlock Levin Oh yeah, Kinlock Levin and there's the big Hydral Pirate Station Hydral Pipes Yeah, when I got to there and I went across to the Devil's Staircase then I just stayed on the road again it was so much easier to run on the road Yeah it's the struggle but so hopefully I'll knock off these 50 runs and I'm going to write about each one just a few pages just as a way of as a way of keeping busy without having to plan another epic that's going to cost a fortune but I do have this sort of this little tweak of an idea which is basically Patagonia so just so you're right on the world's map Yeah, I've got a map there and I've got one here so it's so quite long down to the margin so there's a trail that's just opened up it's not really an official trail but some long distance three hikers have kind of created this route and it goes all the way to the bottom of America from sort of half way up South America so it's going to be about four, no, three I think it's about three and a half thousand miles or something Wow because we had Jamie Ramsey on the podcast the other day and he ran from Vancouver to Tierra de El Fuego so he ran from Vancouver to the tip of south I think it was the tip of south either way it was a long way, it might have been chilly but it was a long way down I think the only problem with it is just the time I mean I would do it like either I'll try and do it with a tent and a pack and everything but even for making it a real budget adventure the time that's going to take the time out of work is the hardest challenge I think harder than running through the Andes I think and I'm sure I'd meet people, I'm sure I'd have lovely encounters and amazing experiences and adventures but it's just trying to figure out the economics so if I could get some if I can try and draw up some sort of supporters some sort of sponsor then it would become a possibility otherwise I'm just going to have to save up and I'm going to have to have more local adventures in the meantime Well that's not to happen but while we were still coming back from Istanbul we were mad peen on New Zealand that was the other one there That could happen The Arora Trail ran from the top of North Island to the bottom of South Island and it goes through some absolutely staggering scenery overseas There was a 60 if not older years old man that got the world record for that recently he did something like 60 miles a day running to the length of New Zealand That's incredible I think that's a really good support to join as well because there's loads of they've set up because you can't even drive to some of them, there's a little cabin there's a lot of bodies along the way because there's a lot of hikers to it not so many runners there's a runner called Anna McNough who wrote a book about that I have to admit part of me is like well where can I go that no one that no one's done it and that's why running the Orient was such a great one because we created it ourselves so if I can come up with another one that's a self set mission to go from A to B then I'm not competing against the fastest time, I'm never going to be the guy who does the fastest time I'm not going to do 45 days for the Appalachian Trail and I'm not really interested in that because you don't have the kind of experience that I would want I don't want to run from dawn to dusk every day I'm going to run 8 to 10 hours a day maybe 12 hours a day but I'm still going to have some time in a place where I can see things and enjoy things and occasionally talk to someone and occasionally and manage to have dinner well it's not the middle of the night so it's finding the balance between having an adventure and having an ordeal I don't want an ordeal there will be times that resemble an ordeal in the adventure whether I want them to happen or not but I don't want the whole thing to be an ordeal Gavin where can people buy your book they can well I would say in all good bookshops that's the challenge at the moment distribution is not happening the way it should but on Amazon running the Orient is on Amazon available on Amazon sorry let me just say you can probably get it from a local independent bookshop on their website so that might be the best way to do it bookshop try and buy it from them yeah for friends listening you can just go into any bookshop and ask them to order in any book not a lot of people know that a lot of the independent bookshops are doing delivery services now so it's a lovely thing if you can write to them give them whatever titles you want if you've got the publisher name then that's helpful but they'll find it and send it to you and if anyone watching the podcast wants a signed copy then maybe they can drop us a line and I can arrange that I can get some book plates from the publisher so where where can people find you social media wise well on Twitter I'm at Gavin Understore Boiter and I think Instagram is called write to run is me and then I have a website GavinBoiter.com which just covers all my creative work brilliant guys thank you so much for joining us I feel exhausted just listening to you yeah that's always lovely good luck on the 200 miles and that's going to be an amazing experience yeah well we're just going to get in there and get it done that's I don't have any man except to take it steady and you know was it that old Chinese man said a journey of 200 miles is best undertaken in a camper van or something yeah we could land your rocks so you can just drive round and round well during the night when the camera is off I'll just jump on my bike if we see you on a segue we're going to know guys massive massive thank you please look out to yourself thank you so much for your story to everybody at home massive love to you all thank you for watching another episode of the bought the t-shirt podcast bye Gavin's book you could buy mine as well look at that yeah that will make a great double present and please like and subscribe see you all soon thank you bye bye hello friend I hope this finds you well my name is Chris Thrall I'm a former Royal Marines commando and I fought my way back from chronic trauma and addiction to live, work and travel in 80 countries across all seven continents achieving all of my dreams and goals along the way now I've passed my simple system on to other people but I can only help you if you like and subscribe so please do so because you get one life and if you live it right one is enough