 I'm Rusty Kamori, and this is Beyond the Lines on Think Tech, Hawaii. I was the head coach of the Punahou School Boys Varsity tennis team for 22 years, and we were fortunate to win 22 consecutive state championships. This show is based on my books, Beyond the Lines and Beyond the Game, and it's about leadership, overcoming adversity, and creating a superior culture of excellence. My special guest today is the highly respected head coach of the University of Utah football team. He is Coach Kyle Whittingham, and today we are going beyond football. Hey, Coach Kyle, welcome to Beyond the Lines. Thank you, Coach Rusty. Really appreciate you having me on. Coach Kyle, I know some of your friends, and they all tell me that you are an exceptional skier, golfer, and tennis player. I mean, have you won tennis tournaments before? I have, as a matter of fact. Now, not a real high level, 4.5 as high as I got, and I did win a couple of 4.5 tournaments. I think it was two singles and one doubles title, and I went to the 5-0s and got smoked. So I was definitely not a 5-0, but I got to be a very good 4-5, and that was about where I talked down. I didn't start playing tennis until I was like 25 years old, so got a late start, but thoroughly enjoyed the game and play it to this day. I can't play at a 4-5 level right now, maybe a 4-0, but I sure enjoy it, and really developed a passion for it when I was a graduate assistant coach back in my mid-20s. Well, Coach Kyle, being a 4.5 player, that's impressive, and winning tournaments that's also impressive as a 4-5, and Coach Kyle, you became defensive coordinator for the University of Utah football team in 1995, and then you became head coach, technically in 2004 when you and Coach Urban Meyer co-head coached that bowl game, right? Correct, yeah, I can't remember the exact date, but sometime mid-December, I got named the head coach at the University of Utah. Coach Meyer still had not left for Florida, that's where he was heading off to, and we had the Fiesta Bowl against Pittsburgh coming up in January, and the AD asked me, hey, do you want to be the head coach for the game, or do you want to be co-head coach? And I thought the closer that we operated to how we did during the season gave our players the best chance to win the game, so rather than disrupt things and say, hey, I'm the head coach, so we're gonna do things my way, we just continue to do things as we had all season long. We did have the co-head coach titles, and we ended up playing very well in that game, beat Pittsburgh handily. I can't remember the exact score, but I think we won by 20-25 points in that game. Well, of course, having Coach Urban Meyer and Coach Kyle witting him together, that's not fair for Pitt. I'll tell you what, I learned a great deal from Urban Meyer and just to get off track a little bit, he got hired in 0-2. I was already on the staff as a deco-ordinated here at Utah. I thought I should have got the job. I thought I was ready for the job. Short story, nothing could have been better for me than to spend those two years with Urban Meyer and continue to learn and develop as a coach. Then when that time came, when it was my opportunity, I was much more prepared. And that's, I love hearing that, because some people, they'll take it the wrong way when they don't get the job. And Coach Kyle, since you became head coach, it seems like your teams are consistently ranked in the top 20 in the country. I mean, it's impressive the culture of excellence that you have built with your teams. And when you're recruiting, okay, besides talent, what do you look for in players besides talent? Well, we place a high, high premium on character of the individuals. We want guys that are good people as well as good football players, well-rounded people, students, good in the community, just people that give back into the community. And we've turned down hundreds of really, really good football players that we just don't think are good fits for our program through the years because they just didn't have the elements that are important to us. So if you were to say, pin it down to one single word, it would be characters is the thing we look for in addition to obviously the talent to be able to get it down the field. And that's what you're about. I mean, you're a man of great character and you're a reflection of your team and your team is a reflection of you. And Coach Kyle, when you're coaching and in terms of peak performance, getting your team to really be at that peak performance week after week, what are some key things that you focus on? Well, first of all, our players understand completely that the Monday through Friday process is imperative to what's gonna happen on Saturday. The games are won or lost far before kickoff. And it's the work ethic, the attention to detail, putting in the time, making sure that we play as a team. I mean, there's so many variables that go into it, but we've been able to be consistent, fairly consistent for the last 20 years. And a big part of that, a huge part of that is the great job that our assistant coaches do in their evaluation process of getting the right players in the program, mentally and physically tough players that are really committed. Coach Kyle, I wanna ask you about the importance of fundamentals, because, I mean, it seems like your teams are always just solid with their fundamentals. And I know that in order to have fundamentals, it takes a lot of discipline and you have to control everything that you have control of. What are your thoughts about that? Exactly, right on the money, hit the nail on the head as far as football as a game of blocking and tackling when it comes right down to it. And the teams that block better and tackle better than the other teams typically win more games. And that's something that we place a premium on. We have spring football at this level of football and we are able to focus solely on fundamentals during that spring football time. We don't pay much attention to all the schematics. It's all making each player in our program better fundamentally and technique-wise. If you do that, you're gonna have a chance to win every single week. And really, as a head football coach, you rely so much on your assistance. Now, maybe a basketball coach or a tennis coach, you can do it all yourself or pretty much all of yourself. Impossible to do it all yourself as a football coach. So I've been blessed to have excellent assistant coaches throughout the years who really have made my job very easy and have just done a great job of, like I said, getting the talent into the program and then developing that talent once it's inside the program. Coach Kyle, when I became head coach during my first year, I would share with my team that don't practice until you get it right. Practice until you can't get it wrong. What are your thoughts about that philosophy? That's a great philosophy. And I think it was Michael Jordan that said, hey, you could spend hours and hours and hours practicing shots the wrong way. And all you're gonna get good at is shooting wrong. And so you gotta do things the right way and that's where the coaches come in is to fine tune those fundamentals, fine tune those techniques because perfect practice makes perfect and the old adage. And that's so important that your players grasp that and understand that when these coaches are coaching you and coaching you hard, it's because they care about you and they want you to succeed and do things the right way. As a player, you better be real concerned when you stop getting coached. That's a sign that, hey, maybe I better get with the program because if I'm not getting coached then they're probably looking to go past me. I completely agree. When I get on a player's case, I mean, it's because I really care about them and it's just what you said right there. And I wanna ask you, Coach Kyle, about your quarterback Cameron Rising. What are some qualities that makes him such a great leader? Wow. Well, first of all, he is the leader of the leaders on our football team. He is the guy that everybody looks to. He sets the bar and then demand that everybody lives up to that expectation that he has set. He makes everybody around him better. And really, that's probably the mark of a great leader. The single greatest attribute or asset is for the ability to make those around you perform better. That's exactly what Cameron Rising does. He sets the bar by example. He makes sure that he is encouraging players and getting things done the right way. He has complete ownership on our football team and he's an alpha dog. That's the term I always end up using when people ask me about Cam is he is an alpha dog with every respect and has the complete respect of all the players on the team. And everybody looks to Cam to set the standard. Isn't that awesome? Like he is literally like having another assistant coach on the field, right? No doubt. He's an extension of the coaching staff and it's not just Cam. Your Cam is the leader of the leaders, like I mentioned, but we have a leadership council that the players elect each spring and each fall and it consists of 12 to 16 players depending on how the vote comes out. But each of those players is expected to take ownership of the football team and be among the guys that are demanding on the practice field in the weight room in the meeting room that things get done the right way. Coach Kyle, I know through the years you've been recruiting players from Hawaii as well from Kahuku, from Punahou, from St. Louis. I mean, and a few months ago, you came to Hawaii, you brought your assistant defensive coaches with you and my friend, Kahuku football coach, Stuart Carvalho, connected us together. And I have to say your assistant coaches, the defensive guys that I got to meet, I truly understand why and how you've created such a culture of excellence. I mean, they're so passionate. Talk about character. I mean, exceptional character. Can you expand more on the importance of building or attracting these coaches which will attract the players as well? Yes, for sure. And when I hire assistant coaches, I look for three primary attributes, intelligence, character and energy. If I get those three components in an assistant coach, you've really got something there. And our entire staff is comprised of coaches like that, but you only had a chance to meet the defensive side. They're the epitome of exactly what I'm talking about. They work great together. There's no egos involved. They're all pulling in the same direction. And now one thing we've been fortunate here in Utah to have is very strong continuity consistency in the coaching staff. We lose very few coaches here at Utah. They all love being here, love working here, love the community. We also have, I think it's four or five of them that were former players here at Utah and want to stay connected to the program. And so it's been very fortunate for us to be able to stay together as a staff because I think that is certainly one element that's allowed us to have success along. I completely agree. I mean, I'm so fortunate to be able to meet and know them now. And Coach Kyle, you have both of my books and I love talking coaching with you and building cultures of excellence and just that mindset of champions. And I want to ask you, what are some concepts that stood out to you in the books? Well, first of all, having high character and making sure you do things the right way, carry yourself the right way, present yourself the right way. And that is so important and it's important to us as coaches, we have a mantra here that we want to develop the whole athlete. If all we do while you're in our program is making you a better football player, we failed. We want to help you in every aspect of your life. That includes your education, your conduct off the field, your social life, everything, every aspect. And so our coaches take a genuine interest in our players, much like obviously you did with all your great teams. And that's part of the process here. And that's something that we emphasize very strongly in recruiting to the parents that, hey, if your son comes here, it's a demanding program, it's high expectations, but he's gonna have a great experience if he sticks it out and he'll be a better person because of it. Yeah, and that's what it's about. I mean, we're not just coaching them in the sport, we're trying to coach them to prepare them for life after sports as well. And I think that's a huge part of when coaches and teams have success, not just short-term success, but long-term success like you have had. And Coach Kyle, my third book is coming out on May 7th, Superior. And I love talking in depth with you about the difference between creating a culture of excellence versus a superior culture of excellence and the difference between attention to details versus superior discipline details. What are your thoughts about going from good to great to superior? Well, that's exactly what it's all about. And the good is the enemy of great, right? I guess we'll be the enemy of superior. And you're always trying to attain the highest level and get the football team with the highest possible point. We wanna focus on not just being a great team but being a great program. That's really the emphasis and the focal point. And that's something you can sustain year after year There'll be little peaks and valleys, but for the most part, if we can maintain that level of excellence that we're after here at Utah, we're gonna be a great program year in and year out to be able to accomplish some very good things. Coach Kyle, I wanna ask you about your bowl games because oftentimes when I'm watching you guys on TV in a bowl, it seems that, I mean, you win a lot of these bowl games and you guys are so competitive and it seems like your team, they start strong and they finish strong and they have some kind of, like something to prove to everybody. And it seems like every year you tend to beat one of these highly ranked teams as well. I mean, how do you have this type of consistency and then that kind of performance in these bowl games consistently? Well, first of all, I think the approach to the bowl game that our players take is really the key. Now, the last few years, we've had a little bit of rough sledding in the bowl games. We lost our quarterback, ironically enough, camera-rising in both. We didn't have them for either the last two, actually the last three bowl games. So that no excuses though. I mean, you gotta deal with injuries and that's part of the game, I understand that. But overall, when you look at the entire body of work from the program over the last 20, 25 years, we've had a really good run in bowl games, not so well lately. But I think again, the key when things we're clicking is our players don't approach the bowl game as anything but another chance to win another football. That's really what you gotta do. You gotta work hard. You gotta put in the same time, commitment, effort, energy as you do during the regular season. If you think it's just a vacation and you're just going down to the bowl side to have a good time, you're not gonna have much of a chance. But if you'll put in the work during the bowl prep and take it seriously, which our players have done, then you're always gonna have a chance to win. Coach Kyle, in terms of identity of your team, what qualities do you want your team to be known for in terms of identity? Well, in a word, toughness. I think that's where it starts for us and that's what we're all about. That's both mentally and physically tough. Grit is probably a good word that describes this as well. We've just, when you come to play the huge, you know you're gonna be playing for the full six. You better be ready to play for the full 60 because our guys are gonna bring it for the full 60 minutes. They're a physical group. We play a physical brand of football. We run the ball. We defend the run. And I think that's probably the common theme. If you were to talk to other coaches and other programs that played us, I think you'd hear that same thing, that the youths have a toughness about them that is there year in and year out. And that's been the case for a long time now. We take great pride in that. I completely agree. When I watch your teams, that's one of the things that stands out to me, the toughness. Another thing, relentless competitors. I mean, another thing, discipline. And when you have those types of qualities as an identity, you're gonna put yourself in a position to win. I mean, even if you're playing better schools, better teams, you're gonna be in a position to win those games. What are your thoughts about that? Agree 100%. And there's an old coaching axiom. Before you can win a game, you've got to not lose it. That would mean not making bonehead plays, thoughtless penalties, sloppy play. I mean, you've got to be disciplined. You've got to be smart. You've got to be completely in control of situational football. There's so many games within the game of football. Two minute drill, four minute drill, third downs. I mean, there's just so many different aspects, and you have to have great tactics and be able to play tactical football. That was a big emphasis of Coach Bill Wall. She was such that that great 49er coach, back when they were winning Super Bowls, is being masters of tactics and situational football. And I think that's something that our assistant coaches do a great job of instilling into our players, is understanding that every down is not created equal. The tactics and the elements of the game can change based on situations. Coach Kyle, I love talking with you about this. And another thing that made our team successful was I tried to really not minimize, but to eliminate unforced errors. And it seems like when I'm watching these elite teams, these superior teams in sports and business, they seem to really not make unforced errors. I mean, when you're having a penalty like offside or a false start or unsportsmanlike penalty or personal foul, I mean, you're just trying to help your team lose when you're making those types of senseless penalties. What are your thoughts? Exactly, that's exactly what we preach and strive to avoid. You're never gonna be penalty free. You're very seldom we'd be penalty free in a game. But the penalties, as long as they're penalties of aggression and trying to do things right, trying to make plays rather than just senseless, careless penalties, you know, a late hit way out of bounds or roughing the passer way after the ball is gone. I mean, you gotta be smart. You gotta play intelligent football. And our players, I believe, have very high football IQs and that goes again back to the assistant coaches instilling that in them from the time they enter our program until they leave. And that's just so important is to be disciplined and take care of the details. Everything matters. That's another mantra that we have in our program. Everything matters. Every detail matters. Coach Cao, if we reflect back through the last 20 years in terms of your coaching, I mean, the times have changed. I mean, back in the day when Vince Lombardi was a coach, I mean, he would have to adapt and change his coaching style to be relevant and effective today. How did you adapt and adjust your coaching style or coaching philosophy through the past 20 years? Yeah, well, first of all, the players that were accrued are certainly different than they were 20 years ago. It's a different type of an athlete. And I don't wanna say better or worse, but just different. And there's different things that are important to them. Social media, I mean, all the peripheral stuff that didn't even exist 20 years ago. I've gotta be taken into account these days. Offenses have evolved. Offenses certainly have a much different look now than they did 20 years ago. And so I think it's just a matter of being able to adapt, not being stuck in your ways and rigid because times do change and you've got to change with the times. You still wanna put your own stamp on it as you change. But if you're unwilling to change and always looking for, if you think you have all the answers and you're not committed to trying to find a better way to do something every single year, then you're gonna get beat. Because I believe that everyone else, all your opponents are moving targets. They're getting better and you better get better and work more rapid pace than they are. Coach Kyle, tell me the effects that the NIL situation has had on you. Wow, that's been the biggest game changer since I've been in coaching. And I've been in coaching a lot of years. That is the single most item or this thing that has changed things dramatically. We went from a few years ago, not even be able to give our kids a ride to their dorm or a slice of pizza, to these kids are making 10s, sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars. And so it's completely changed the game as far as recruiting. Very seldom now is, what's my education gonna look like? What's this gonna look like? It's, hey, what's my salary? What's my salary gonna be? And that combined with the transfer portal where players are able to just up and leave at their, you know, really at their convenience or they're, you know, whenever they feel like it, it has really caused you to approach the game differently. We are recruiting our own roster as intently as we are new players coming into the program, recruiting the new recruits. So trying to maintain your roster and roster management has become much more challenging. We're very fortunate here at Utah. We talked about our culture. We have far less players leaving our program than the average programs out there. And so in that respect, we feel very fortunate and the portal has been very good to us. That result of portal activity for us as far as guys leaving, guys coming in has been very good. So we think we've taken advantage of that, but it certainly has put a whole different spin on things and especially the NIL. And what it has done, Rusty, has really made the playing field even less level than it was before. I mean, the blue blood schools that are atop of the food chain, you know, they have upwards of $20 million to work with their NIL where a lot of schools maybe don't even have one million. So it is creating changes and differences and disparities in college football. But I think, well, I don't think I know that you haven't seen the last of the changes. There's several changes on the horizon that are going to separate the house from the hat nuts and the one that has to work. Coach Kyle, another big factor that I'm noticing is in the bowl games, there's a lot of the star players that are choosing not to play in the bowl game. And you know, that's not right. It's like, you know, you start the season as a team and it's important to finish the season as a team. And how can it be back to where these top players, the star players finish the season playing the bowl game? Well, that's a great question. And those are my sentiments exactly that once you start something, you finish it. That's no longer the case. You have players opting out of New Year's six games. I mean, as crazy as that sounds, you get to a New Year's six bowl and there's still several players at Florida State like what happened to them this year in the bowl situation. And it's unfortunate. I'm old school. I believe that, you know, you're letting your teammates down. You just go ahead and opt out. I think a lot of these players are getting advice from maybe some of the wrong people. And, you know, the team concept has eroded a little bit in that respect. But I think what may be the only solution is ultimately I believe that the players are going to become employees of the university. And in order to get that paycheck, you know, you've got to play the games. So I guess, you know, hitting them in the pocket book may be the, you know, one of the only ways to ensure that everybody is available for performance. This is interesting insights. And Coach Kyle, I mean, in terms of another challenge, besides the NIL, so, I mean, you have a lot of moving parts. I mean, there's different dynamics for you being the head coach of a college football team. I mean, you're trying to coach the assistant coaches who's trying to coach the players as well. So what, besides NIL, what's another big challenge that you deal with as head coach? Well, I would say, you know, we talked about the portal, which is obviously a huge thing along with NIL. I think maybe Chip Kelly said it best when he made the very surprising move to go from UCLA head coach to offensive coordinator at Ohio State, is he wanted to coach again. He wanted to coach players and have the ability to have his own room and be able to teach. And as a head coach now, you've really turned into a CEO. That's a better title than coach in this day and age. And you are coaching the coaches. You know, that's one thing I really enjoy doing is keeping our staff cohesive and on the same track and on the same page. But I have very little opportunity to instruct and coach the players individually. You know, of course, I'm, you know, I set the environment. I'm the guy that sets the culture and, you know, philosophies, but as far as hands-on teaching of fundamentals, techniques, all those things that I love so much as an assistant coach, that's just not part of the deal now as a head coach. You're really, like Chip said, a CEO and it's a big corporation. I mean, it's like running a big company. Coach Kyle, there's a, I mean, a lot of coaches out there that I know that admire you. And earlier, you mentioned coach Erwin Meyer. You mentioned coach Bill Walsh. Who's another coach that you admire? Well, I would say the most, the one, the coach that had the most impact on me shaped me the most as a coach was my father, Fred Woodingham. He was my coach in college. I had a good fortune of playing for him at the collegiate level. Finest defensive coach I've ever come across in my life to this day. Then we had the unusual experience to coach together at the collegiate level. He was the defensive coordinator here at Utah in 1994 when I got the job, I was the defensive line coach. So we coached together at that point and he had a chance to go back to the NFL as a coach for the Raiders. I took over as the coordinator when he did that. A few years into that, he left the NFL again and he coached for me a different dynamic. I was the coordinator and he was the position coach. So we kind of did a reversal there, but everything that I'm about, particularly on defense, fundamentals, techniques, philosophy, schematics, came from my father, Fred Woodingham. Now, as far as coaches that have really impacted me at the head coach level, coach Ron McBride, who was the head coach here at Utah when I did get the job here and gave him my first opportunity to coach at this level. Urban Meyer, who I already mentioned that, those two years that I spent with him as far as being able to just put a whole program together, day-to-day operations of a program, all the details, all the meticulous things that go into running a program successfully. Learned from him and then Lavelle Edwards. I was fortunate to play for him. He was the head coach when I was in college and really just a guy that did things the right way. And so those three guys between Ron McBride, Urban Meyer and Ron McBride or Lavelle Edwards really shaped me. And I tried to take the best from each of them and kind of put it into a formula to try to become the best head coach I could. At the professional level, the three bills, the three bills that really impacted me, Bill Walsh, who I already mentioned, Bill Parcells and Bill Belichick, well, not probably, but three of the best to ever do it. So what better people to try to emulate and learn from than those three guys? Well, Coach Kyle, I know that our viewers will agree with me when I say that I want more Coach Kyle Whittingham's in the world. And I really wanna thank you for taking time to join me on the show today. You bet, Rusty, it's been a pleasure. I really appreciate you having me on and shoot congratulations to you and that incredible run, 22 state championships in a row. I mean, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say no one will ever come close to breaking that record. So I've learned a lot from you as well that the book I read in your first book was intriguing, loved it, and I'm moving on to the second one here with great anticipation here in the near future. Great, thanks, Coach Kyle. And thank you. Thank you for watching Beyond the Lines on Think Tech, Hawaii. For more information, please visit RustyKamori.com and my books are available on Amazon and Barnes & Noble. I hope that Coach Kyle and I will inspire you to create your own superior culture of excellence and to find your greatness and help others find theirs. Aloha. If you liked this show, why don't you give us a like or subscribe to our channel? Thanks so much.