 My name is Sandy Baird as some of you know and I am here for the People's Law School which is a new project that I'm involved with creating a People's Law School so that people poor people in particular and particularly new Americans can have some access to the courts and I hope some understanding of what happens in the courts and also the People's Law School will be presenting these kinds of presentations on Wednesday evening when we'll be talking about the law politics and some international relations. And with us tonight is John Murad, the chief of police. I guess you're still the interim or what's the deal John but maybe you can tell us a little bit about that. Last semester John did a session called Policing the City because recognizing that that is one of the biggest issues of our country and our city at this time is policing the city as apparently crime rates are rising. We don't know exactly how much they're rising but that is the at least the I guess the temperature of the election and those people who are talking about rising crime rates are making that a very big election issue and so with the policing the city has become a very contentious issue in our society and in our town. So tonight we want to continue that discussion about policing our cities with our chief John Murad who was just not reappointed but I guess continued is that correct but maybe you can explain a little bit about who you are. John is also a long time Vermonter has lived here was brought up here by his parents who were part of the Spanish department at UVM for a number of years and John then is a Vermonter he went to Harvard didn't you John? Yes. And now he is our chief and he was appointed by Mayor Weinberger and then he was kept on I guess in the recent situation is that correct John? Yeah that's about the truth of it. Hi my name is John Murad I am the acting chief of police for the Burlington police department. I was nominated by the mayor but did not receive an approval from the city council there was a six vote down mostly party lines around approving the mayor's appointment. So I am the appointed but unapproved chief of the police department. I've been the acting chief of police since June of 2020 prior to that I was the deputy chief of operations since October of 2018 prior to that I worked for two years in the private sector in security work and then prior to that I did 12 years with the New York City police department starting as a police officer and rising through the ranks of detective and sergeant and ultimately finished as an assistant commissioner of the New York City police department. So I did before that grew up in Vermont I was born here in Burlington and grew up in Underhill my parents were professors at the University of Vermont they're actually on the call right now. I went to MMU and then I went to Harvard. What's MMU? Mount Mansfield Union High School. I went to MMU High School out in Jericho and I then moved after Harvard moved out to California to seek fame and fortune and you want to be a movie star didn't you at one point? Movie star writer in something along those lines but 9-11 made me realize that for me that life was not a contributory one. I think that you can accomplish amazing things in the arts but for me I wanted to do something different. I moved back to New York City I worked in publishing for a while at Newsweek magazine for a while and then I joined the NYPD after marrying the woman who's now my wife and getting that part of my life in order. I then was able to find a career that I really loved and I do love it I still love it. And then you loved it in New York City as well did you love it in New York City? I did I loved being a cop in New York City. It was a really heady time and there were a lot of important changes being made in that police department changes that I was proud of. We were instrumental the management team that I was a part of the executive team was instrumental in driving down stop question in Frisk from highs of around 700,000 in 2011 to around 12,000 by the time I left the department in 2016. Instrumental in changing the way that the department interacted with the public we implemented something called neighborhood policing which was a really robust community policing model that required a lot of resources. We actually got the first headcount increase in the New York City Police Department in nearly 15 years and used that increase to create a model of policing that allowed officers to step away from the radio and not be indentured servants with the 911 system but instead be able to proactively connect with and reach out to the community and get to know people in the neighborhoods they policed. So I was very proud of those kinds of innovations it was a tumultuous time in policing to say the least it's only gotten more tumultuous since I returned. So and after you were in New York City that's when you came back here correct? I did after I left the NYPD and worked for two years in the private sector and then missed public service so I took a I took a 60% pay cut and returned to public service and also returned to Vermont which was which was a key part of that was getting to come home. And you wanted to correct? Oh very much. You wanted to return to Vermont right? Very much I wanted I very much wanted to return to Vermont. My wife and I every time we would visit my folks out in Underhill as we drove down Poker Hill Road and hit Route 15 we would look at each other and say how do we get back in what do we do to get a job in this place but it was challenging and so when the opportunity to to join this police department as a deputy chief came I leapt at it. Okay that was when Del Pozo was the police chief correct? That's correct. Chief Del Pozo hired me as a deputy chief of operations and I'm grateful to him for that. So did you know him prior to that prior to you being hired by him? Did you work together? We had never worked together but you know we were both in the New York City Police Department at the same time we knew one another. There aren't a lot of police officers with Ivy League educations. Chief Del Pozo had gone to Dartmouth and then had gotten a master's degree at the Harvard Kennedy School. I had gone to Harvard but also had gotten a master's degree at the Kennedy School as well not at the same time but we crossed paths very often we knew each other. So now you're back in New England and you're in Burlington the Queen City right? Yep. And when Chief Del Pozo resigned, retired, resigned correct? Resigned. You became the interim chief is that right? What happened? I was briefly the acting chief. Chief Del Pozo left in December of 2019 and I think that many people know that there was a it wasn't a pleasant departure for him. He had done really great things for the city of Burlington but he got embroiled in a scandal around social media. He resigned in December of 2019. I was the acting police chief for about three weeks and then Chief Jennifer Morrison who had been a deputy chief in the Burlington Police Department and then had been the chief in Colchester was brought in as a interim chief as distinct from an acting chief or an appointed chief but she was the interim chief from January of 2020 through June of 2020 and I took over in June of 2020 when she left. She left the department. It had been an interim job with a shelf life. She knew she was going to leave after six months. There was the possibility that she might return. She chose not to owing to issues around politics, issues around decisions that were made in June of 2020 around funding and I have been sitting in that chair since. Okay so what do you think? Are you enjoying yourself? It's an adventure every day that I will say. Enjoying is probably a strong term for it. I feel an incredible sense of mission. I feel like this is- So what is your mission then? My mission is to keep people safe by preventing and responding to crime and disorder with and for my neighbors. That is policing. Policing is keeping people safe by preventing and responding to crime and disorder with and for our neighbors. We have to be able to work with the community. We have to recognize that it's not merely crime. It is not just the kinds of things that we think of when we think of an episode of law and order or in the old days an episode of DragNet. It is far more than that because ultimately policing spends more of its time dealing with disorder or issues around how people are interacting in shared public space than it does with people who have been robbed or feloniously assaulted. That's a good thing. What do you mean by disorder exactly? Well I think disorder is brokering public cooperation. There are times where people cannot cooperate in public together and- Public you're talking about, right? You're talking about public. You're talking about public disturbances, right? Sure. The idea of using a public space in a way that prevents other people from using it and in a way that's not fair or that defies the rules that we've come up with. We spent more than 2,000 years as a culture recognizing that ultimately we have to have somebody who speaks on behalf of the state and does so in a very fair way. We're not always great at that fair part. I try very hard to make sure that that is a controlling factor here in Burlington. I think that the Burlington Police Department gets it right far more often than they get it wrong but we have to do it in a way that is fair and safe for everyone and we have to make sure that everyone's needs and interests are balanced against everyone else and sometimes those balances take on interesting turns. Today there was a very small protest in solidarity with Ukraine and so people came down the hill from the University of Vermont towards Church Street and when things like that happen we have to balance people's rights to express themselves and to take advantage of their first amendment right with the right of everyone else in the town to continue to move around if they want or to be able to go up and down a street and where do those balances come out? A lot of times that's a determination of a police officer or a police supervisor or a police chief because the law doesn't really distinguish between who's got which right when and so balancing those in ways that are fair but most importantly ways that keep everyone safe is really the key. So you're the chief though when the movement to so-called defund the police happened, is that correct? That is correct. And what happened around that? So you know on on May 25th of 2020 the Burlington Police Department was conducting the largest food distribution that had ever happened in Chinden County. We were working with Vermont Food Bank and the National Guard who shut down 128 the belt and we distributed food there and on that same day March 25th 2020 in Minneapolis four men wearing uniforms very similar to the one I wear when I'm in uniform murder demand one of them murdered a man and the other three stood by and have been held accountable for that now in court. That changed a lot of things. It was a a dam breaking for a moment of racial reckoning for this community and this city and this county and the state and the country around this this issue that has never been settled in our 400 plus years as of European presence on this continent around racial injustice around systemic racism that is built up around those things and it burst that summer and a factor in that burst or an outcome of that burst here in Vermont in in Chinden County and in Burlington was a pronounced desire to change policing and to reduce policing's footprint in ways that would allow other footprints to increase footprints like mental health care footprints like social services and the notion was to take away money from the police and give it to those other entities and I am in fact pretty pretty supportive of that idea what I never was supportive of and I'm not supportive of now was doing that without having those other entities in place you can't diminish the one entity that does respond to all these things because policing is around because policing has the shortest phone number in America just three digits and here we come because policing is open and operating 24 hours a day seven days a week 365 days a year and it always comes it is the responsive agency to all of these issues and perhaps it shouldn't be perhaps a lot of these things have been loaded on the plate of the police as other social services and systems have been not funded properly over the course of our history but the police were the ones addressing these issues and you cannot withdraw it without building up those other resources I'm sorry can I just interrupt you for a moment because I know I I totally understand what you're saying and let me give you um why I went down to city hall numbers of times and asked them not to defend the police and I'll tell you why because partially of what you said in part about disorder the way that um I'm a lawyer I've dealt with domestic violence all my life basically but as an attorney especially here with the new americans I deal primarily with institutions with the fact of domestic violence and why I was so concerned was that that's where the police have to respond it seems to me and I'll tell you why I believe that that it's not totally proper for a mental health worker or anyone else to be in the situation of in which domestic violence is occurring because that's usually when a cop gets killed or a lot of times it was a high degree of violence in those situations against the police but the second reason is you police are the only body that can arrest anybody a mental health worker cannot do that and sometimes particularly in domestic violence but a lot of other situations you the police have the constitutional authority to arrest people and get them out of a situation which is as dangerous perhaps to them often as they are being dangerous to others and so without I mean that's why I was really concerned with the defund the police movement and that's why I went down and that's when I first met you I think I met you before of course but anyway so could you comment on that about this power to arrest well I don't have much comment on it you put it extremely well and succinctly and accurately police do have the power to arrest there are other people who can use who can compel people in certain situations doctors and nurses can compel people and even use force to restrain people or give medicine in a hospital scenario but in in the public no one else can do that but police and it is not the result police want to have to use force but it is always there as a possibility because at some point in in certain situations there will come a place where a person says I'm not going to do that and as a result you have somebody saying that they are you know I'm not going to do this you can't make me and at a at a certain point police do make and they have to have that power to make in certain situations not for minor things but for instances in which people's safety is at risk or where the public safety is at risk there is an effort to you have to ask and then you tell and then you make and the making part is very uncomfortable it's uncomfortable for people to see it's uncomfortable for people to accept there are those who refuse to accept that it's ever necessary there are those who say that that is something that we just do not need ever and we never need to go there I am certainly willing to explore that possibility I would love it if that were true but I don't believe that it is I don't believe that that is a realistic way to look at the world and when we say what the world is doesn't mean we want to say that that's what the world should be we don't want to say that that's what the world is that's the best picture of the world or that's the way it ought to be but instead we say that it is a a reality as we know it now and as we know it now there are people who will not do what they are asked and who put other people at risk sometimes out of mental illness sometimes out of peak sometimes out of just a sense of of of being oblivious to what other people are doing or caring about other people and sometimes out of a downright desire to hurt others there are those among us who have that desire so uh yes police are okay take George Floyd those police officers probably should have been arrested correct well ultimately they were uh and and now all all four have actually had convictions uh I know I'm one of them they all got life sentences or was it just I don't believe any of them got a life sentence I believe that that Derek Chauvin who was responsible for Mr. Floyd's murder uh got a sentence in in the 20-year range but I I don't know that for sure I don't know exactly what it was but in in other words if there had been other police officers there they may have arrested him rather than letting that when he goes on that guy's neck for so long right I mean well there were other police officers there and those officers have now been now been convicted for not doing exactly what you're describing and that is certainly going to send ripples through uh through the profession what was what was shocking to me about to defund the police was the lack of understanding really on the part of those who want to to diminish the numbers of police in the city of that very role that the police are the only ones with the constitutional authority to arrest people that that was quite I'll put it as nicely as I can it felt to me that those people were uninformed really a lot but anyway what was the result of all that well so the result was a decision by the by a majority of the city council and it wasn't just party lines it was a majority of the city council decided to reduce the burlington police department's authorized headcount from 105 to 74 right we were never out 105 except for very brief moments like snapshot moments most of the time we hovered in the high 90s around 97 98 and for us to go down to 74 was a real blow a 30 blow in our staffing and it was even more deleterious to our patrol capacity because we have three main capacities in the burlington police department we have patrol which is what you see most of the time officers in marked cruisers wearing a uniform responding to calls for service through 911 they drive around town maybe they pull people over maybe they are dealing with an intoxicated person on church street then we have our detective bureau who are detectives the way you see on tv they don't wear uniforms they work out of this building they follow up on more extensive crimes that require investigation follow through and being taken to court and then we have our airport and our airport has to have eight officers because it is dictated by federal law based on the number of gates at the airport based on the number of flights that come in and the well not the number of flights but the gates the number of gates and the hours of operation we have to have eight people at that airport my detective bureau by contract with our union has to have at least 10 non-supervisory detectives so therefore when I shrink my department the only thing that I can shrink is that patrol capacity and it gets smaller and smaller and so even though the overall diminishment of the department was 30 percent the patrol division has been diminished by almost 50 percent now that diminishment wasn't done by layoff it was done by attrition and so in that respect I spent most of June 2020 in deep fear that I would be required to lay off officers and I would have had to lay off my newest officers because that's how unions work last in first out and those newest officers are among my most diverse officers by gender and by race they come from a variety of backgrounds and ways of thinking they're exactly the kinds of folks that we want to be police officers I was really really dreading that I would have to lay off us lay officers off I didn't but the attrition happened a lot faster than the people who made the law thought it would not faster than I predicted we kept up with the exact pace that I predicted in June and July of 2020 and we kept it pretty darn close unfortunately to the point where we are now at I believe 60 I have 60 effective officers I have a total of 65 but I have three officers on long-term military one officer on long-term injury and one officer at the academy actually not that's not true anymore he's back so he's actually he just graduated the police academy my first brand new officer in nearly two years graduated this past weekend and is now on his first very first day of patrol today he's not an effective officer technically because he can't patrol by himself he has to always be with a field training officer so those two officers really only count as one I have 60 effective officers down from what what was down from 96 to 97 well so how are you doing exactly well it's it's tough we have you know we're we're fortunate right now it's winter time things are are knock on wood things are a little slow and therefore we are able to sort of keep up with what's in front of us but it is more difficult I'm burning through far more overtime than I ever have or that the department has in living memory we are we had to implement something that I created called the priority response plan which meant that certain times we are not able to respond to every call for service we have to put some calls for service aside and we also implemented something that I created called the public safety continuity plan which was the in order to make up for those uh departing officers we created additional resources one that we'd had before we used to have two community service officers those are unarmed unsworn officers who can go to certain kinds of quality of life calls as you point out uh sandy they do not have arrest powers they cannot arrest they cannot take people into custody they can't use force but that is what parts of our community said they wanted and they don't have they know they're not armed then I guess they're not armed they carry they can carry pepper spray and they can use weapons against animals because they are animal control officers and they can work at times to to do that but they can't use force against people I we used to have two we now have eight so I drastically increased that position in order to be able to address some of those kinds of calls for service quality of life kinds of calls for service that we weren't able to use officers for anymore because we have too few officers I also created out a completely created that was an existing position the CSO or community service officer I created a different position the community support liaison or CSL this is a mental health position a social worker who's got expertise in chronic mental health issues in substance use disorder in houselessness and the attendant concerns that surround that and I have three of them plus a supervisor so four and they are incredibly valuable I'm very proud of having created that role working hand in hand with the supervisor Lacey Smith uh and and getting them into a place where they are excellent follow through on calls for service an officer will go to a call that officer will address the call she will talk to the people maybe it was a domestic dispute not a domestic violence situation but a domestic dispute or an argument between neighbors and that officer will stop the situation intercede and intervene in a way that that establishes safety and security for everyone and then say well I don't know what else to do there's not a lot that I can do as an officer and off goes an email and the next day when the CSLs come in they have a stack of emails waiting for them asking can you help us with this can you make sure that you know we can connect these people with services that they need job services or counseling services or services around for example substance use disorder right so let's let's so how is it how's everything working out and then I think we should open up to some of the questions that these people who have joined us might have or how are you just you were not appointed as chief correct but you I was I was appointed but unapproved right okay but you have decided to stay I take it I have I am here I I love this city I have a home that my wife and I love our kids love my my parents live here I don't want to leave okay so you have decided to stay right through whatever I guess I will stay so long as I have the mayor's confidence um okay that was however a quite a political battle also that you went through right it was it was a I think it was it was a long night at the city council okay and you but you regard that because it was a tie correct basically in the end it was tied it was a tie and it was right down party lines right and so when I saw that vote I thought well that was a good thing given the contention over the summer given all the at least perceived problems that were occurring in other cities with the police I thought I was happy to see that there was a tie but I was more happy to see that you were staying so what do you see therefore in the future but I wanted to also talk about whether or not there is truth to the notion that crime rates are rising all over the country but you have decided to stay correct yes okay so does anybody at this moment have questions for chief mirad no I guess yes okay so let me let me then ask chief what is going on in burlington in terms of crime because I pick up the paper every day in a market right across the city market so and I've noticed there's a big parking lot right there if you know the place I'm talking about yes and I've seen open fist fights in that parking lot in the middle of Saturday afternoon so I go in and check every morning what happened last night so forth is there a truth to the fact that crime is rising what can you come what can you say about that so I I can say this definitively the perception of crime the sense of a lack of safety has absolutely people do not feel as safe in the queen city right now and that is not a good thing I can also say this that our incident volume has uh inarguably decreased the overall number of incidents but incidents aren't crimes overall incidents have decreased drastically over the past what's an incident what would you describe as an incident so uh incidents are what are tracked by our val core system which is when you call 911 you get a dispatcher and that dispatcher categorizes your call as something we have for example uh calls at the airport we have something called an airport duress alarm and that's when a person at an airport gate clicks a little button that says there's an obstreperous passenger and I need the airport police uh we have motor vehicle complaints which are maybe a loud vehicle or a vehicle that's parked improperly we have embezzlement now that's a rare one not when we say things we see most often our uh issues around the most common call for service is called a suspicious event because whatever it is has made a person want to call 911 for assistance and help but they don't really know what it is and the dispatcher can't really tell what it is either and they dispatch it as a suspicious event the officer goes to the scene and then says this wasn't a suspicious event this was a domestic disturbance this was a an assault this was a robbery this was a uh a violation of a restraining order this was a uh an untimely death there was a foul odor and somebody called that a suspicious event or they hadn't seen somebody in quite some time and we go and we find instead that it's a it's a an untimely death these are all the kinds of calls that we have uh and their their burglaries they are uh crashes with fatality or with injury or with no injury they are search warrants they are runaways they are robberies they are fireworks they're noise complaints they're intoxication complaints graffiti removal complaints all of these are examples there are 130 categories of calls for service and those calls for service have been dropping over the past several years now half of the decrease from 2016 through 2019 actually came about because we as a police department actively stopped doing traffic enforcement we drastically reduced yeah not stopped we drastically reduced by about 80 percent over those several years the number of traffic stops we did and a part of that was to get a racial balance we had issues in racial disparity with traffic stops and we no longer do wait a minute wait a minute okay so can i ask you something so you you are saying then consciously that are you saying i guess i should ask the question that more black people are stopped for traffic stuff than i mean proportionately than white people the data was clear that uh the the the data was clear there was a disproportionate number of stops of black drivers based on their population in the driving population the best way to measure their population of the driving population is through crash data nobody crashes more than anyone else everybody crashes the same and so uh crash data gives us a good picture of what the driving population is which is different than the census data we were stopping people of color more often than white people represent proportionately to their presence in the driving population and that was true that's no longer the case okay in 2021 we reversed it we actually do not have traffic disparities any longer we did zero searches of black drivers in 2021 this is all preliminary data we're going to be releasing a much more extant and uh and developed uh public report an annual report on a number of different categories around traffic around arrests around use of force that will be released in april or may so this is preliminary data and it might change maybe i'll find one search of a black driver in the year but i don't think i will we had zero searches of black drivers and we stopped black drivers at a lower rate than their presence in the driving population as measured by crash data and we ticketed black drivers at an even lower rate than that uh we issue about we only issue tickets in 20 of instances we issue warnings 80 of the time but we issue warnings even more often to black drivers than to other drivers that's a reversal that came about this year and it's driven in part by driving down the number of overall traffic stops so those decrease that decrease in traffic stops that 80 decrease accounted for about 50 of the total decrease in incident volume from 2016 through 2019 what is the other 50 percent some of it is a decrease in foot patrols other proactive measures that officers take and some of it is a decrease in people calling people are not calling as often how but what they are calling about is what we call priority one calls the most serious kinds of calls high priority calls like arsons like assaults like domestic violence like lewd and lascivious conduct priority one calls were higher in 2021 than they had been since 2016 a tremendous increase in fact and so that increase really gave us pause and is if we see it if we see it continuing in 2022 and so far we do very early in the year but the data says that we are just as high this year for priority ones as we were last year that's a bad thing it is a bad thing because not only is the priority one volume the same as last year which is higher than any of the previous years but we're doing it with many many fewer officers okay hold on there is a question from from ruby asking why shouldn't there be a civilian review board and apparently that had been a suggestion at one time and I guess it has not happened a civilian review board that I guess would replace or be working alongside of the police commission but the civilian review board made up of civilians appointed I don't know how or elected but anyway maybe you could answer that or what is your opinion about that I'm sure I think a lot of those questions that you just brought up are part of the issue what would it be how would it function what would it do my I think that the police commission that we have is a terrific structure what we have is an advisory and appellate body the police commission is an advisory body that meets with me monthly and in the past has been an incredibly collaborative body that has been able to give additional insight to the decisions that are made at the police department they have control over they have to find they have the final authority over directives that they have to approve directives that we write that is our policy and they have insight into what the police do including insight into discipline and they discuss disciplinary issues and weigh in on disciplinary issues and then they are also an appellate body that if an officer gets a disciplinary outcome that that officer does not like the officer can go to the police commission for a final ruling that can actually override the decision made by the chief but in all other instances it is the chief's determination that determines discipline and ultimately determines the day-to-day operations of the department that is by that is by charter and that's how it's defined is that by the city charter the city charter which is a state law because it has to be approved at the legislative level in Montpelier and my rationale for retaining disciplinary authority as a chief of police is this our police commission has been remarkably engaged recently they have gone on ride-alongs many uh two police commissioners in particular have gone on uh several ride-alongs but all of the police most of the police commissioners have been on ride-alongs they have also done uh several hours about 10 hours of training with a group called NACOL and that is great it is great to have that kind of engagement and to have people who want to understand what it is that they are providing advice and insight on at the same time that officer that I mentioned who was our first new hire in almost two years who just graduated the police academy he had more than 800 hours of instruction at the police academy he's going to have another 450 hours of field training if he makes it through and it could be extended if he doesn't do as well as he needs to do he then will be a police officer only after all of that I would never in a million years put that officer in charge of discipline over other officers a brand new officer with 800 hours of police academy experience and 450 hours of field training does not know what it is to make decisions in the heat of a moment to actually know all the directives and the policies and the things the vagaries of real life that can weigh in on those moments as well okay I guess I would love to ask um maybe the person who just asked that question what is what is the me what is a civilian review board exactly that and did the city have something specific in mind when they were considering a civilian review board who would appoint the members would they be elected what was that proposal if anybody knows does anybody do you chief well I mean I know that that was a proposal correct there there was a proposal I believe it was primarily authored by councillor Freeman it was it was ultimately vetoed by the mayor but what was it what was how different was it than the police commission I know that the police commission is appointed by the city council aren't the members of the police commission in kind of a bargaining session usually every June the police commission is appointed by city council so I believe that's I know that they are appointed by the council I'm not entirely certain of the mechanism for it but I think that's the way it was um but I don't know what the proposal of somehow there was also the proposal for a civilian review board which has occurred in other cities I just didn't know much about that proposal and how it would differ are you was it suggested that they would have disciplinary yes the one that was proposed here would have disciplinary authority which the others that you mentioned in other cities generally do not very very few of those have in fact the only one I can think of off the top of my head that has full disciplinary authority is in Los Angeles and it's a much different kind of police commission but the the the proposal to my recollection was that it would be I don't remember the mechanism for appointing or electing people I do know that there were very distinct requirements for who was a part of it that the makeup of the body was very specific people who've lived experience as people who had been imprisoned people who had been who had mental health issues people who perhaps had experienced homelessness or houselessness and all of those were were components of the body but I don't recall enough of it specifically and you don't know if it was a proposal whether they were elected or appointed is that right I don't I don't recall that and I guess I'm asking the question of the people who might be on our our zoom does anybody know um but anyway does anyone know how that proposal would have worked however it was ultimately it was not accepted is that correct chief ultimately it was it was that was vetoed by the mayor okay so let me ask you know the question so you're saying then that you the chief have ultimate disciplinary power over your officers is that correct not entirely I have to pass every single thing by I pass every use of force I report to the mayor I also report it publicly every single use of force is reported to the public on a monthly basis you can find it online we have I have an I have created what I believe is one of the most one of the best transparency portals of any police department in the country if you go to the Burlington VT.gov page for the police department there's a page of transparency and data that includes that annual report that I mentioned uh that is a deep dive into the statistics there's a daily police blotter that would be able to oftentimes find that fight that you talked about in the parking lot you see a fight in the parking lot the next day you can find it in the blotter regular press releases that we make uh data information excuse me about our citizen academy which is a way for any person to come and and sort of get an experience in the police department an open data dashboard which is actually nearly real-time data on all of our calls for service and different ways to to sort those calls so you can see violent crime or property crime you can see it by area of the city there is an open data portal which is different from the open data dashboard but has a lot of the same kinds of data just mixed in different ways again publicly report all of those uses of force I have just put up an ad for a redaction specialist if anybody here knows a young person or or any person is a redaction specialist if anybody here knows people who are good with with uh with video editing we need a redaction specialist that is a person who would not edit we do not edit our video in a way that changes the subjective ideas of it or the subjective sort of concept of the video but we do redact it which means putting a film over people's faces and blurring out certain images or certain words in order to comply with Vermont's privacy laws but once I get that redaction specialist it's a funded position I am seeking to hire it I intend to make almost every single use of force public on body camera as well as the narratives that we have those narratives are breakdowns of the incident a description of the incident description of the person who is the subject of the incident including his or her race a description of the officers who who were the involved in the incident and that is incredibly transparent when I add to that the video people will be able to see for themselves what officers do what it is that they're up against how they're comporting themselves whether they feel there are problems with that comportment or whether they feel there's problems with the behavior that the officers are dealing because that's what it normally is it is it is behavior that all of us find egregious and unlawful and unsafe that causes officers to have to use force okay um I also just we have another question from Jane who asks what's your status now is this and is the mayor and the city council doing a search for someone for a permanent chief and that those are the two questions and uh I guess are you staying around so uh as I said I'm on the chief as long as I have the mayor's confidence and that is essentially what he has said as well I do not believe he intends to do another police chief search I think that uh I am the the chief as long as I continue to perform as I have for the past two years during the single greatest crisis this police department has faced in in the last 150 years of its history uh this is this is this defunding and and the diminishment of headcount is the biggest crisis we've faced certainly in living memory and I'm hopeful that I've been able to to basically guide the department in a way that is rendered it continuing to be effective in a very very stressful uh situation as long as I continue to have the mayor's confidence I believe that I will continue to be the acting police chief no I'm sorry something was weird as weird something doesn't make sense that that that that is the city council voted you down I mean they would have had there should be some action that they have to um that that they have to try and find a replacement that has to be um it can't just be I mean it's it's this is this this is this is being in in in limbo in in limbo essentially and what did and there and there's no there was no at the onus was not put on city council to to to to to suggest another person in any way or to or to or to or to or to start or to start their own search system and you know I mean that that's what I'm confused and are they waiting for for the new count for the for for a new council and taking another and taking another vote I'm john you can answer that but but jane I don't think that the chief was uh I mean it was a tie vote it wasn't really um it wasn't really as definitive as perhaps the city council wanted it was a tie vote right I mean this is the age we live in when when when president Biden puts forward judge Jackson he is going to maybe get uh I doubt it I doubt it and and that's that's where we are right now we're in a place where where these kinds of votes these down the line votes are are more and more common uh whereas you know you can look and see that for example you know Judge Kagan was I think approved with I think there were only four nay votes for Judge Kagan it was a very different kind of dynamic even as recently as as her appointment so uh yes I think that we had uh we had a 6 6 that's not a vote down as much as it's not an approval um but it is it's one that uh we have to have a chief of police I'm still the chief of police it's up to the mayor to put forward a new chief of police if he so desires and for the time being he's not going to do that as long as I retain his confidence right I want to understood sorry so so talk about just like saying it didn't change anything right right didn't it didn't definitively change anything right um anybody else have any questions um or discussion or comments that they would like to make okay so um John what do you you say that you know number one priority are serious crimes correct is that what you're saying in in in our priority response plan priority one crimes uh or priority one calls rather are high priorities they're not all crimes for example uh there is a a roadway hazard is a priority one call what priority one means is that if an officer is available an officer is always going to go even if there's only one officer available uh and a roadway hazard is something that's important a down tree needs somebody to take care of that but it's not a crime however priority ones track much more closely with crime than priority threes priority threes are calls that are not life safety and they're and if we don't have enough officers available we won't go to those I need to have at least two officers available for most priority one responses need to send at least two officers to a domestic violence situation yeah at least because it's a dangerous situation correct and so you want at least two and therefore I will keep two in reserve if I get to the point where I have two officers available for calls and a priority three comes in no one is going to that call because these two officers have to be have to wait in case a priority one comes because when that priority one comes then they will go to it and then I won't have any officers available for anything right and then I'll have to wait till officers become available again but when a priority three happens and you've got one officer available or even two officers available that priority three is is what we call stacked it's held until until we have more officers than two available to answer it okay thank you we're getting close I wanted to ask one final one question but does anyone else have any questions or thoughts I think Andy has his hand up okay I don't see it good good Andy um hi John hi Sandy hi um I'm getting a little bit of an echo I have to move that the I guess I just want to follow up on the citizen review board question because uh you know the cna report I don't I haven't heard you I didn't hear the whole show tonight so I didn't hear you talk about that but the cna report did recommend a citizen review board what's the cna report cna is a is a consultant that was hired by the city to write uh to do recommendations for the police department right and they wrote a fairly lengthy report um I think 168 pages or something like that and um one they made many recommendations and one of their recommendations was that there'd be a citizen review board that um had the authority to examine internal and external investigations and it said this chief should no longer serve as the final authority on facts and discipline now there John I just think there must be another criteria for being able to for citizens or residents to be able to um make a judgment about um uh incidents in the police besides having 1200 hours of lived experience as a police officer because the very reason why you have a citizen review board is because if it's just police always reviewing police then you you have a potential problem there whether it's in Minneapolis or in um in Burlington sure um and and I I don't mean not to be making eye contact with the camera I'm actually looking through the report right now what the report said is is actually that that uh it didn't determine that there should be a change in that it said that it is uh it wasn't definitive about whether or not the chief retained that kind of uh authority over discipline I would I would point out that a good portion of the original document uh which was leaked to the press and leaked uh online I actually didn't talk about Burlington Vermont it talked about Burlington North Carolina when it talked about the discipline section it talked about a civilian uh a structure that was unique to Burlington North Carolina um it said the finding was that presently the Burlington police chief has ultimate authority to accept or reject the police commission's recommendations and it's critically important there's a structure that gives greater authority rather than the ability to advise to the commission regarding the final disposition that's actually already in place because there is a review mechanism that goes to the mayor and that also goes to that I have to actually justify any uh any DV any deviation from from their recommendation um I mean who do you who who do you have to report that though I report it to the police so the police I I indicate a disciplinary case to the police commission the police commission hears it the police commission gives me a recommendation or or listens to mine and confers with it or disagrees with it and if they just this is all online as well uh in that same data section uh a document called um the I'm sorry uh the pardon me um there we go the role of the Burlington police commission in reviewing complaints against BPD employees which we adopted in August of 2020 so that was written uh through the early part of 2020 Jen Morrison and a police commissioner Shareen Hart did a lot of work on that it was adopted by the entirety of the police commission and the Burlington police department and it actually outlines what's seen in large part what's CNA recommends um that there is a a formal role for them to be able to accept or reject uh the chief's uh determinations and that if the chief uh if they reject that the chief has to explain why he's not going with their recommendation and they can then take that to the mayor for the mayor to actually put pressure on the police chief as well but ultimately the charter does say what the charter says which is the final authority is the police chiefs a police chief that can stand up to the entirety of a police commission and a mayor about a decision is going to have to be a police chief who really articulates what he or she is believing or is talking about and has to be able to do that pretty pretty clearly or he or she is likely going to be out of a job I think that's the kind of instance that would result in me no longer having the mayor's confidence any other questions Andy any no no well I think I think there could be further further discussion of this but I you said you were getting near the end of the show and and I do appreciate your answer John well um my final question is that as a historian I I have the following question there's been a lot of allegations accusations truth to the position that the police suffer from I guess systemic racism what does that mean and do you agree with that and if you agree with that what are you going to do about it so I think that policing absolutely has had issues of race in it as a profession and historically I think that there are clear associations with police in the south and slavery in the north it more often had to do with issues around a union organization but even there one of the first things that happened in New York City when it was still New Amsterdam was that the colonial governor brought in created a police force to control the the the dissolution that he was seeing and he was a relative authoritarian and wanted that dissolution dealt with created a night watchman police force and the second thing he did was he imported slaves to build the piers and so you know that's New York City and that history goes back far beyond and far prior to the Declaration of Independence these these things have been entwined this this unequal relationship has been intertwined since then and before then really um there are issues if I see racism or uh acts of uh of racial bias in my officers I'm going to take swift and severe action on that to the extent that I can buy contract if I see actions on it that defy our policy then I will take the steps that our policies and directives allow which includes termination and for some kinds of acts I think the issue here is that for example with use of force again there are disparities in our use of force there are alarming disparities real disparities between who uh with regard to the the population and then the population of people who are arrested and therefore are ostensibly committing offenses and then the population of people against two forces used the disparity grows in each one and yet if you go through those 150 incidents online which you can do yourself you read through them you see what they are and again I'm going to make the video of them available as well I have not been able to find instances in which there are acts that are bias in those moments bias exists in all of our hearts in everyone's hearts but the overt action that's caused by that bias is not apparent to me as I review those and I invite anyone to review those which is why I make all of them public if it is not the officer who's creating the use of force or the need for it because of his or her bias then instead we are talking about differences uh that are often the result of the very systemic racism that all of us decry that are upstream influences issues around uh around access to to education or to economy or to uh health or to jobs all of these things where we know we have pronounced disparities those have results downstream and the police officer is the person encountering the downstream results okay I think ruby did you have a last uh comment I believe that there was a comment uh arguing that we are all impacted by racism and I believe I don't know I that yes yeah I I did yes and I think that's what we have we can learn from James Baldwin it's what he's been trying to tell us all of these years is that we are as a society impacted by racism and the work that we do against racism will benefit be for the benefit of all people mm-hmm all right any other final comment jane has something jane yeah um I um with my my I guess I have had contact with contact with the police my family has had has had in the past it hasn't always been very pleasant some of some of the problems with the with with racism can I mean there is also might reflect some some other some some other some other problems as as as as well um um my I mean they I remember when I went when I was in it wasn't when I when I was in a traffic accident they weren't necessarily I mean it depends upon the police department some people treat or you're you get a little treated a little a little bit better better than others I mean some police departments are better South Burlington doesn't have the greatest rep doesn't have the best reputation I think Burlington probably does um and um if you how do you find out I mean if you report a crime um how do you how do you track what happens after what what what happens after what what happens to that to that I mean I mean because you don't necessarily um you might report an incident I mean I would I had to report an incident twice and it wasn't you know I didn't rise to the level of I mean of of of of danger of danger but it was more like more like harassment um what what happened I mean how do you track how do you track that what what what happens as a result when you I think that's one of the that's key Jane to ask because what I have found working all all of my life is how few people know how to deal with the judicial system in any way how to deal with the law how to understand the law and that is frankly why I want to uh continue this project of the people's law school people need to know their rights they need to know what the law is how to deal with the court how if you're a victim of a crime exactly like you said how come nothing is being done about that crime and people simply don't understand the law and I don't think there's much education about it and we really I think need to do a better job about that I don't know if you I mean to me if you came to me Jane and said how do I follow what happens to that crime I'd call the state's attorney's office however they're so overwhelmed but also I'll tell you something most people don't know the difference between the state's attorney and a public defender in the first place but I would say call the state's attorney and see if you can find out where your case is but they're so overwhelmed usually that they probably don't even know themselves and at any given moment but I don't know what do you say chief about that on the website there's a page called crisis advocacy intervention programs or CAPE CAIP CAPE and it includes those community support liaisons I talked about those would be excellent people to to help someone who's either been the victim of or the reporter of a crime and wants to have a little follow-through we have a victim's advocate we have a victim service specialist who is embedded in the police department through CEDO or the the the community and economic development office which is another part of city government we have a domestic violence prevention officer and a domestic violence advocate for people who have been involved in domestic violence or relations that's still mary mcallister it is still mary mcallister okay and I think the world of mary mcallister so do I that domestic violence prevention officer is a is a position I've had to really work hard to keep it because in keeping that position I'm denying the patrol of body and it is the only specialized position that I've kept is the the dvpo and that's because the dvpo is so important when you know your question was phrased a little I wasn't entirely clear if you were talking about reporting a crime that you've witnessed you may not have all the rights to to understand what happens at the end right but you can always make a freedom of information request and you can get what is by law shareable if you are the victim of a crime however you absolutely should have follow-through you should have follow-through from our team at the cape office and you should have follow-through from the state's attorney's office if they it wasn't that serious I was I was I was I was grabbed at and um and described and um around the Howard center at night when I when I and it wasn't a wise thing to be walking I mean anyways anyways it wasn't that's not unserious that's that's exactly the kind of thing to know what had to know what happened I mean whether to to whether they to to what kind of follow through was was was was was done because I haven't seen I haven't seen the man I haven't seen the man who grabbed at me since so I would be interesting to know what had not to know what had happened had had had happened I mean I mean that makes it best be just a coincidence I might say that if any and you know I am kind of committed to at least giving people any kind of referral that I know about so for you know anybody can call me at any time I mean and I mean that okay so for all this but so I apparently so is the chief very available so with that I think we probably should close for the night and thank those who are with us particularly the chief John Murad and maybe we'll get another report from him next semester but thank you all for being here next week we're going to present Jane Nodell a professor from UVM who's going to talk about inflation and and about the state of our economy which I'm sure everybody is feeling very cool so thank you all for being here and hope to see you next week