 Stop the killings or resign, CSO's tell Buhari, as Autumn accuses El Rufi of misleading the President. And House on the Rock senior Pastor Paula De Farrasen calls out Nigeria's leaders. Nigeria has problems that are more significant than she ever has, and very exacerbated by the fact that we were not the 60 or 70 million perhaps around the time of the First Civil War. We're now allegedly, I don't believe those numbers personally, 200 million. I don't think that we've ever had a bona fide census in Nigeria. And that was also the complicity of the parents, the foreign parents of Nigeria. And many of these issues need to be dealt with, unless the truth is unveiled concerning our foundational years, our amalgamation, our independence, our first constitutions. We will not get it right in Nigeria. Well, this is Plus Politics and I am Mary Anna Cohn. After what appears as a respite in society, organizations, activism in the country, a coalition of 127 CSO's petitioned President Buhari to, as a matter of urgency, stop escalation of insecurity in the sidelines. The Benin State Governor, Samuel Autumn, has named Nasser El Rufi as one of those that are misleading the President. He described the state governor as a psychofant, a champion and a religious bigot. Now, anyone who doesn't, for anyone who does not share the ideologies that he does share. Well, joining us have this conversation. It's Good Governance Advocate, Shagun Shopital, and Chairman of Civil Society, Organizations, River State, NFA, George Will. We'll also have joining us Barista Victor Opatola. He is a legal practitioner. Thank you very much, gentlemen, for joining us. I'm going to start with you. I'm going to start with you and NFA. Of course, you and Shagun are part of these CSO's, even though you do not make up the 200, but 200 plus or 100 and something are asking the President to step aside. And one would wonder where CSO's have been this whole time. One would wonder where CSO's have been while people were being killed in the Northeast. People were being killed in the Middle Bells. People were being killed in Kanu, in Plateau, in Benoistate. One would wonder where these CSO organizations have been while all that's been happening in Nigeria has been happening. They seem to be slipping and slumbering, but all of a sudden they are awake. What's been happening to the voices of the civil society organizations in Nigeria? I think that you're not correct that we are sleeping. Of course, maybe you may say that these solidified joint actions are carried out, or if you like, threats. Of course, I wouldn't say that they should be resettled. Maybe such a very strong voice. I'm not going to get those on time, if you say so. I'm sorry, NFA, just hold that thought. I think one of you has your television on. Please turn it off. It's conflicting with the sound here so that we can hear everybody loud and clear. Thank you. Go ahead, NFA. Alright, NFA, we lost you. Let me go to Shaggle. Shaggle, can you help us answer that question, please? Okay, so like NFA was saying, I don't think it would be completely accurate to say that civil society organizations have been asleep. Obviously, with a country as big and as complicated as Nigeria is, with the number of problems that we have, whether you want to look at it from the good governance perspective, whether you want to look at it from the accountability perspective, infrastructure deficit, our problems are mirrored, the declining values. Everybody within this space of advocacy would have one side of the elephant or the other to try and bite. And I think that's what's been happening in different ways. So you find people taking governments to court in lawsuits. You find people going to the National Assembly to do sit-outs in demanding for certain actions to be taken. But what I also believe is that in the course of history, there are watershed moments. And when those watershed moments happen, they trigger events that will become a rolling ball, that snowballs and gathers momentum. And I suspect that that is what you might be seeing now. The reason is very simple. We can no longer be quiet. We can no longer do things that we have been doing then because the statistics are jamming and the statistics are alarming. I don't necessarily subscribe to those that would say all the country is going up in flames. There is crisis everywhere. Look, what we have now is abnormal. The number of people that we have, at least the numbers that we can see, both from the side of civilians, from the side of security agencies, the military, who are the front of the world, the Northeast and some parts of the Northwest, the police that are now under an unprecedented barrage of attacks. And all of that. We're seeing a phenomenon that is taking on a complexion that we've never seen before in our history. It looks to me like we're having a watershed moment where all of us in civil society are saying, look, we can no longer keep quiet. We've got to come together and force the hands of these guys in Abuja to do the right thing. So it's not that we've been quiet. Everybody has been doing one thing or the other to address the various problems that we have. But it's a great thing that at this moment in our history, people have decided to come together. Because you can't do it alone. The government is simply too big. So a coalition like this is absolutely fantastic. Let me go back to Ennefa. I want to say whoever has the television on, please turn it off. We're getting feedback, and we do not want that so that we can hear you. You can't be listening to your TV and being on that same TV at the same time. Let me come to you, Ennefa. So the civil society organizations are asking Mr. President to step down. And they're also saying that they're going to boycott the democracy day activities. And you're also speaking on these issues on the sidelines of the insecurity that we're facing and all of that. But boycotting, sorry, democracy day and also asking for a protest of sorts. What difference do you think this will make? Because, I'm asking this because there have been so many protests lately that has not in any way ruffled the feathers of the government. They have not in any way bulged. So what makes you think that if you boycott democracy day activities, if there will be any owing to COVID and all of that, what difference would it make? Well, I think that you are just, you're all working hard, working hard, working hard all the time at the same time. You want to be accused of not being like we are. You have to come here because there are so many of us out there. Oh, Ennefa. Ennefa, your network is very bad. It's what, unfortunately, we can't really hear you. There seems to be a loss of distortions coming from your end. So I'm going to have to move to Barista Victor right now. I'm sorry, Ennefa, we have to let you go and then we'll try to get you back on. Barista Victor, let me come to you. Let's talk about the legal aspect of this. They're saying that they want the president to be, to step down. They're asking that for an impeachment. They're also asking for the National Assembly to go ahead with the process of impeachment. How easy is it to impeach a president? Walk us through it. It's not a working act, impeaching a democratically elected president. It takes a lot of cumbersome processes. But the process is not the problem. The problem itself is the fact that the National Assembly is not willing to effect the process. The process, typically, that one-third of the National Assembly can actually start the petition for the impeachment of the president. But the issue is not the process itself. It's just that the National Assembly, so far, they prefer to do a pro-conitious in the House of Assembly, in the National Assembly, instead of doing what they ought to do, which is to kick-start the process of the impeachment of the president. But why should they kick-start the impeachment of the president? Why should they want to kick-start the impeachment of the president if they do not see the need to do that? Do you get where I'm coming from? If the president for them is doing what he ought to do, well, the situation in the country might be bad, but then maybe a couple of us are blowing it out of proportion, and that's why the National Assembly needs to do so. So why would they want to do it if they don't see what we are seeing or you are seeing? Okay, let us start from the fact that the call for impeachment of the president is not recent. It is an outstanding call. There has been a call for the impeachment of the president far back from 2017. So it is not a recent call. So there have been several instances where people in the National Assembly come to lament for the security situation in the country. Now, that's aside. It is a recent call for the impeachment of the president because one of the duty of the government is to gather the security and lives of its citizens, of a citizen. So as it is currently now from the north, down to the south, there has been recurrent issues of insecurity, even for the elite. So it is not currently it is not something that people in the National Assembly don't know about. They know about it. They've been coming in certain things to complain. There have been so many resolutions that have been made by the National Assembly to the presidency which the presidency has totally ignored. Even recently, as a Senate member, actually made the call that there are reasons why if the president do not reach to their call, they will start an impeachment process against the president. So they know about all these things. It's their constituency. They know about it. So they can't frame ignorance at these particular steps and they don't know about it because they do. Interesting. Let's pretend for a second that at least 60% of the House of the National Assembly both the lower chambers and the upper chambers decide that maybe because the president has refused to speak or has refused to do the most to deal with the issue of insecurity and they decide that they're going to impeach him. How long does this process take? Educators? It's okay. Let me just repeat that. The first stage it's like each stage is variable. The first stage is that one toward of the members of the National Assembly that will send it and they ask for break. One toward of them signing petition and forward it to the Senate president. The Senate president has the obligation to send the petition to the president and order House of National Assembly members within seven days. Then within 14 days after the call for impeachment by one toward of the 14 days two toward of each House of assembly two toward of the Senate and two toward of the House of Representatives they pass a resolution to investigate the call for petition. That is within 14 days. If two toward of them agrees that the the petition should be investigated then within seven days the Senate president will speak with the CJ as the Chief Justice of Nigeria to constitute a seven-man panel a seven-man panel of people who are of good character who are not politicians who are not legislatures who are not in the civil service. So this seven-man panel they have the obligation to report back to the Senate and the House of Representatives within three months and based on the rules given to them by the National Assembly. So within three months if they come back to give their report if the report does not indict the president the whole matter dies there but if the report indicts the president then the the Senate and the House of Representatives each separately if two toward member of them will not act on the report if two toward of them does the Senate separately then the House of Representatives separately if two toward of each House agrees to the inducting report by the panel against the president then the president stands removed. Interesting. But well let's move away from that briefly because that's not the case right now. Let me come back to Anifa who's joined us back on the phone. Anifa you have said that you were trying to say that the CSOs are doing their best to deal with the situation they have been speaking even though I think that they've gone to sleep. But as much as you want to go on a protest and you're also going to boycott the the year of government because that's the first challenge a lot of people have spoken what makes you and please I am not being negative in any way but I'm just being curious what makes you more powerful than the former Senate president I am Pius I am who wrote an open letter what makes you more powerful than a body judge who's spoken against this issue of insecurity or a former president of Basando or another person who seems to be a high standing member of society that has spoken and asked for Mr. President to deal decisively with this issue and even speak to Nigerians what makes the CSO so powerful and how do you think you're going to get the president's ear? I have a partner with the district but that's who I think I like to see a special self in the public who's at any point in time because if you have an ingredient you have the right to use that from your and matching to the point in time or in the money how do you think you're going to see that I want to show that to see that it is the one who's language that has some sort of understanding people are trying to understand their issues there have even been pockets of smaller people to get their pension but yet there are two reasons so we are going to be at the core of this we are coming together to make a statement through mach-action peacefully and non-violent of these questions issues that take a politicalization and can pose it all through political action and through the political action of the idea of why the president of this country is still a national institute and he was denied the potential and the police could not hold the area he went to court that was illegal he went to court the court didn't see the human rights it's part of our right we have the right to go to court the police accused him about this the court of appeal was there that in the democracy the court doesn't speak to them of every democracy that is how the courts and the rights and the rights of the protest in our constitution so it is the only way we can fix this issue is to express ourselves qualification by way of protest for those who are saddled with responsibility to take action for the fact the president the governor of the city what he did in this part of our demand is that this of moral of promotion and of spectacular should be made available should be made available should be made available I hear you I hear you I hear you I hear you I need to I need to go back to Shagal Shagal you listen to Barca Victor here talking about the fact that it's gonna have to take more than just us wanting the National Assembly to impeach the president so I pose that question to you how do you intend to get the National Assembly to understand to see through the prison that you're seeing because like I said earlier on they might necessarily not see what you're seeing or feel what you're feeling so how do you get the members of the National Assembly to impeach if this be a thing that can be done how do they initiate these proceedings how do you get them to in the first place to understand where you're coming from are you going to go to the National Assembly you're going to occupy what ways are you going to decide for to you know go through the dialogue are you going to lobby some members of the National Assembly to you know raise bills whatever what is it that the SCSOs can do because he has said that you have to have at least one third of each members of the lower and the higher house to the upper house to be able to do this but the situation that we're experiencing is it that bad bad enough to want to impeach the president let me start from that way you way just ended now you know I think we need to realize that in as much as the motivating part of the trigger you know like let's call it a camel the straw that broke the camel's back is the security problem is the debt you know I mean when life itself is threatened and what else is left you know as that whole saying goes that when there's life there is hope so if we're all killed you know there is nothing to live for so this is a trigger but we must remember that the issues that are at stake go beyond just the security issue we have a massive failure of governance at all levels and across all levels of government in Nigeria we have a massive failure of governance at the pressure level where the the basic and simplest of the promises that were made by this president and his party when they contested in 2015 and that they reiterated when they re-contested in 2019 they have failed out in varying degrees due is it security security it's obvious I mean the statistics are right there to over 2,800 people were killed in one quarter that was just released last month right 2,800 people killed died of unnatural causes where their lives were taken possibly from them right that security the economy as we very well know is the second tripod of this president promises and we all know where the economy is now yes we've had COVID yes we've had the oil price collapse but things have been better money to prevent this skyrocketing of inflation rates skyrocketing of unemployment complete stoppage of economic growth I think the answer is yes I think we could have money the economy much better than we're doing right now and then you know the the third tripod which is corruption I mean we all know where we are with the issue of corruption in Nigeria today it is very obvious that corruption is alive and kicking and thriving so how exactly has this government fulfilled its promises and why should they continue I think people need to understand that when we talk about the change of regime it's not just about cool the top because you know the federal government spokesperson was talking about the cool the other time and you know scaremondering over that they have to remember that there are other ways that regimes can be changed impeachment is one of them you know we elected these guys and we can withdraw that mandate via an impeachment process so to answer your question by the way I have the mandate of my organization this is and it's very unusual where we have a unilateral unanimous position from act network to say yes we support this action yes everything that can be done should be done to see that we will attempt to impeach the spreader even if it fails and I think we all have to you know get that in my work realistic it probably will fail but we must try the best thing that needs to happen is that I don't think we'll have any problem starting the impeachment process because as you very well know there's also a political slant to this and the opposition the members of the opposition party will almost certainly be more than willing to initiate that they have the numbers they've got their one-third they've got more than one-third of members of both houses right so the starting the process will not be a problem where we would have a challenge is pushing that process to compelling the larger house the two houses to actually and panel that thing that will investigate this president and determine whether it can be impeached on and I think that the only way that is done is to force their hands okay my actual protest has always been very effective a way of getting the attention of government people and with this coalition Marianne I trust me the action that happened in 2011 2012 with president January 2012 I was a part of that action it is the same group that is coming together now to say we want something to change and they had better be taken seriously because this snowball so the I think one is to happen now is there has to be massive mobilization which is currently ongoing so that at a determined date we will have mass action civil disobedience and protest to force the hand of our politicians to get the attention of this president you know this is painful arrogant attitude where they completely ignore us and even lecture us and even insult us must stop they have to realize that we elected them mr. famous you know mr. Alaji Garibash who and the likes of them must understand that they are working for us their salaries are being paid by you and I and they cannot lecture us and condescend and speak down at us and insult us so the only way to do that is for us to show them that we do have the power by mobilizing ourselves and standing up to say no more well unfortunately we're out of time but I want to say thank you to NFA George Will I want to say thank you to Sheryl Chopita and Marisa Victor for being part of this conversation I wish you the best of luck let's see how that turns out what we'll take a short break when we come back passed upon a difference in discusses the state of the nation when we come back we'll take a look at what he said during his sermon yesterday in church and how we as Nigerians can align stay with us