 This is Starb to Storefront. This month is Women's History Month and we've partnered with Cat Footwear to bring you stories from female entrepreneurs in the construction industry. This is the second episode of our four-part series. The goal is to highlight some of the female movers and shakers in an industry where they make up only around 11% of the workforce. Our guest today is Angela Cacace, founder of Move Over Bob, an online community sharing resources, inspiration, and knowledge to a growing number of women in skilled trades. Bob in this case refers to the men who have long dominated the industry, but Angela isn't trying to make this an us versus them fight. Instead, she wants those who already have a seat at the table to move over and allow anyone and everyone a chance to join the ranks of skilled trade workers. So listen in to cover everything from why the No Child Left Behind Act is responsible for a reduced trade labor force, how winning and competition on the show This Old House turned her hobby into a career, and how to deal with the struggle of managing both a family and a business at the same time. Now on to the episode. All right, welcome to the podcast on today's show. We're talking to Angela from Move Over Bob. Thanks so much for joining. We're kicking off Cat Footwear Month with you. And so for people listening, what is Move Over Bob? So Move Over Bob, I guess is best described to me as an anthem. Somebody described it to me that way once, and once I heard that, I was like, Oh my God, that totally encompasses what it is. So at the forefront of it, it's just kind of anthem for women to kind of get behind, to tackle, you know, what is a very male dominated industry, which is construction. And it's kind of manifested into what now is a website that actually launched about a year and a half ago. And with the real focus of where it began, which is to kind of get more women's stories out there, learn from their stories, kind of pay tribute and thank them for paving the way to make room for women like myself who are like eagerly trying to get into it. And it's kind of just turned into this amazing collection and a community at the heart of it. But so many amazing things have kind of manifested out of it. So it's kind of still, it's like to be written still, I guess, as far as what it is, what it is entirely. Including this podcast actually. So thanks so much for doing that. In terms of like, what brought you to construction? What was the time for you? Maybe as a kid, watching your parents or something? What was the moment where you were like, this is a field I'm interested in? So that's a very loaded question for me because of how it's like, it's kind of work. So as far as like the world of construction and the world of trades very specifically, it's something that I have been really weirdly obsessed with since I was a teenager. And to get real far back, it kind of goes into the fact that my father was, he was a principal for schools with kids with emotional and behavioral disabilities. These alternative programs outside of Washington DC. And so I kind of grew up listening a lot to him kind of gripe about these kids that are being put into these programs. And then like, really for the most part, just being released out into the society at the age of 18 with, you know, no real future in college or, you know, that traditional college track. And so I heard a lot of that. And I ended up actually then becoming really interested in the topic myself, being really interested in kind of getting into a line of work that would help to kind of advocate for these kids. And so I dove right into all these issues surrounding the skilled trades gap because the No Child Left Behind Act came out around the time I was in high school. And so it really just kind of became this really weird obsession where I'm just like, you know, looking at all these issues and realizing that just by encouraging more people to go after these vocational education and the trades, they could really make a life for themselves that otherwise isn't presented to them. So ironically, even within that obsession, I ended up in a situation where I too could not go to college. And I also had to go find a job and find a trade, which is, well, fortunately, I found a trade. So instead of just getting a some sort of nine to five job, I did have the advantage of people around me who encouraged me to get into a trade to make a better living for myself, which was barbering actually. So that's where I began as far as my trade. And really then just kind of started living it, living the that reality that felt like failure for a while, as far as not being able to do that traditional college track and just kind of making the most out of that situation. And then years later down the road, after a really successful career in barbering, I ended up moving from Washington DC, which is where I was working to North Carolina and was able to use, I made a really good living for myself. So I purchased a home. And I've always really been hands on. So I've always really been like into tinkering and building. And I mean, I used to like renovate or renovate, you know, decorate friends, rooms, they let them, they let me paint and do anything I could do. So it's always been, you know, working with my hands, doing things artistic and creatively and kind of that's just always been something I love. And so the purchase of my first home was that kind of opportunity for me to explore that even further. My father, as I mentioned, he was a teacher. So, you know, he didn't make great money. So in the summer as he did construction. And so he had a lot of experience building decks. And so when I got this first house, he brought all of his tools down from Maryland, and we built the deck together. And I just, I loved it. And I then decided, you know, I'm going to tackle this kitchen. And he left all of his tools. My husband wasn't thrilled about the idea. I thought I was nuts because it was kind of nuts. But again, I was able to kind of reap the benefits of the life I made for myself as a barber. So I had a nice chunk of change to like take a little bit of time to explore something new. And so I used it to do that. And I just fell in love with it. Like, I can't even begin to tell you the like epiphany moments that I felt while I was in the middle of like a gutted kitchen that terrified everyone around me. But I was like, this is amazing. So anyways, and so then I ended up doing it and my husband showed pictures to a co-worker of his and the co-worker was like, Hey, your wife should totally submit these pictures to this old house because they had a competition for like remodels and stuff. So he came home and told me about it. I submitted the pictures and I got a call from the editor and I won and they came and they did like a feature in their magazine. I won the national competition for best kitchen remodel. And yeah, it was pretty nuts, right? Because it was also super satisfying since my husband initially was like, what are you doing? I'm like, yeah, now you have a national, nationally recognized kitchen. National award-winning wife here. Yeah. So it was, my husband is not, he's an IT guy. So like couldn't like handy stuff, hand, like he's, that is just not his cup of tea. I'm the same way, by the way, full disclosure. Like I might be a developer and I'm on construction sites, but I'm like, my hands will get cut if I touch anything on site. And so I have, I've learned where they're very delicate, very delicate. And I've just learned like God has made me a certain way. And it's, it's up to me to embrace it and accept myself for who I am. And unfortunately, I can't do anything. I can change a light bulb. That might be the extent of it. Well, you're a smart man who married a woman who can. So. And that's it. The best of both. So then what happens? So you, you, you win. And then people are like, oh, please do my house. That would be amazing. I love what you did. You know, it wouldn't be nice if it was that easy of a, but what I've realized is as a woman, right? It took me a long time before I was like, maybe I can do this for a living. I, I actually was fortunate enough. So the editor for that magazine, just really sweet woman. And I didn't know who else to ask. You know, I managed the whole project myself. I hired an electrician and a plumber, but like all the carpentry I did myself, the design of, you know, anything I could do that was not a licensed trade I did on my own. So I didn't know any other like general contractors or like anybody to like turn to as far as like, this was great. I loved this. Now what? So I asked the editor and I asked her to have a conversation with me and she was gracious with the hour of her time and I just kind of spilled it all out. I was like, I love this. Like I want to do this, you know. And so she was like, well, Angela, I'm like, sounds like maybe you want to be a general contractor designer. Like clearly, this is something you like. And she was like, why don't you look into some classes in the area? She was like, maybe find some women if you can and talk to them and see. So after that, I was like, okay, I was, by that point, I did have to get a job. So I was working as a barber and Durham and I, which is actually a really great because it gives you access to talking to a lot of people. I always say my, my barber is my, my therapist, my mental health coach, and the only ego booster. Like there's very few people who can make me that happy. And so I'm glad you at least stayed because I'm sure you have a customer based that. Yeah, I don't do it anymore. I don't, yeah, I have since left. I mean, there's so many transferable skills too from barbering. Like I can't even, I loved it. I did not leave it because I didn't love it. I left it because I found something I loved more, which is makes me a very lucky person. So as you started going down that road, so you're looking for other people in the world, you're probably trying to get, figure out at least how to get your GC license, which is not easy. Well, and yeah, and actually, so I started asking around and I did find there was a community college. So somebody was like, Hey, my brother is taking this class at a community college, like, maybe you'd be interested in it. So I called up, you know, I looked into it, got in touch with the program director there and, and enrolled and started my classes and building technologies program at local community college. And then I proceeded to like, I, you know, still barbered and then I would go to school. I was able to kind of work my schedule off that way. And, you know, I really got it. I really tapped into the carpentry aspect of it. And so just kind of kept tinkering around with cabinetry, like building cabinets for free for people, which now in hindsight, I'm like, that's a lot of work. It's a lot of work. And again, just kind of speaks to the hesitation that I am not alone with women where we're just kind of like, well, I don't know, like maybe it's not like, I like doing it, but like, can I get paid for it? Like, I don't, you know, why do you think that is? I'm just curious to hear your perspective on why, why do you, because I saw my wife go through this. Why do you think that is? Well, I think it's, you know, ultimately it's not presented as a, like a feasible option for women. So I think because it's not like, there isn't a direct path, right? So to get into construction and to get into trades and to do this, to get into this line of work, there is no like recipe. There's no here, take, go, go to, go to this college, get this degree, you'll get this job. Like it's an unpaved path. And so women, I feel like we're, we're a little bit more cautious about how we approach things. And when we put ourselves in situations, we kind of, I think, inherently know that we're going to have to prove ourselves to a certain degree. And so if we don't feel really prepared and we don't feel like we have all the things that we need to really go up against the grain, we just kind of shy back a little bit. And we just take a lot of time getting as much information as we possibly can. And I think when you're someone like myself who like, you know, we're collecting the information, you get a taste of it and you're just like, but I also want a piece of it. So if it means I have to do it for free, like I'm going to do it for free. You know what I mean? Like, which, you know, ultimately, yeah, is a bit of a detriment. And to a certain degree, I'm glad that I, I would love to take credit for it and say I was like Angela stop doing this, but it was actually my teacher from the school and a friend of mine from the class who I was, I remember this, I was cutting someone's hair as in between clients and they both called me up, one called me first and they were like, Hey, listen, there's this couple in Chapel Hill and they like, they want a bathroom and like, you're amazing, like do it. And I was like, I'm still cutting hair. Like, I don't know. I'm, you know, I'm doing things for like, I'm not charging people. And then my teacher like literally like called like five minutes later I was like, Angela, stop barboring and get to work. So I honest to God hung up the phone, went to my boss and was like, I'm done. I'm going to do this. And I quit like that day. I was like, not that day. I gave her time. I didn't like leave everyone hanging. And that was it. And so I dove right in and it sounds crazy. And I actually found out I was pregnant around that exact same time. So I like, I literally like quit my profession of 10 years, found my LC guy company and like started this brand new company. And my first job was, uh, I was pregnant like for the first time for two, like first time pregnant. What is that like? So here you are starting your first project and you're pregnant and you have these clients. So I can imagine as a, as like, if I were to hire someone to do physical labor or to do a renovation and they're pregnant, a lot's going to go through my mind, right? Like, Oh, is this even safe? I'm a little nervous now. What was that like for you? So I wasn't showing yet. So I took full advantage of that. I actually was like, baggy clothes, hell. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Like, come on. Cause it's fine. I was by the end of the project, I was showing a little bit. And at one point I remember I had to like crawl into the attic and it was like the most uncomfortable thing ever. Cause I'm like, but no, like I could not have lucked out more. And honestly, the guys that I ended up, you know, linking up with and hiring for the various trades were also fine. Like, I honestly, I was really lucky. That first project was, and it wasn't that it was easy because it wasn't, you know what I mean? There's a couple things that come to mind immediately. So I can think about like, like for my wife, as an example, she doesn't really enjoy doing residential products because the people, they get too emotional about, you know, it's their home. And so there's a real, like it is emotional. These things are literally where they're going to spend their time. But I can imagine from your perspective, having years of barbering, you're totally used to dealing with that because you're quite literally cutting people's hair, which I would argue is like the most emotional thing. And so I think like that skill set is pretty amazing and transferable. And so I think that gives you probably a strength you probably didn't recognize until later. But I think for people listening anyway, who may be barbers today, you know, these skills are transferable over time. And you take them with you to whatever you do. The other interesting thing I want to talk about is like, so my wife and I are trying and I, and she always brings us up around like the conversation of when am I going to have to not be on site because of the chemicals, right? And there's like, that's a real conversation. Like she's, she's the GCE, she's on site every day. And so was there a moment for you where you, you know, you had to, maybe you're running three, four projects and you're like drywall dust and or you're masked up. Yeah, those are real conversations that not everybody has. Well, so for me, because I'm a small company, so I take one project at a time. So it was really manageable for me. But yes, absolutely. Like one of the advantages, so like for me, it's like I'm overseeing in the project management of it all, but you know, hiring certain trades that fall outside of what my specialty is, which is, you know, custom carpentry, cabinetry type of stuff, things like, yeah, lifting things, like being careful with how much you're lifting. And my first with my son, so I have two now, but with my first, that pregnancy was like, it was actually smooth sailing. It was really false advertising for my second pregnancy. But yeah, no, I mean, at the end of the day, it's like, yeah, there was definitely, I was fortunate again to have like, there's just certain people you need to have around you so that you can avoid those, those situations and those, you know, and make sure that you are like, I am masked up if, you know, if I needed to be, but you know, just kind of make it work. Like I said, the first pregnancy for whatever reason, I was very fortunate that I, I mean, I worked up until I was almost eight months pregnant. I wanted to ask you when you were going through the community college track, what was that like? And so how many females are in the class? Are people looking at you like you're crazy? Like what, what is that like? Here we go. This is good. Full circle back to move over Bob. So I showed up to the first day of class and I was fully expecting right to be like, I'm in North Carolina, going to some community college out in the kind of country. And I'm like, here we go. For sure. This is going to be super awkward. So I got there and there were 12 students and six, half of the class were women. Wow. That's amazing. Yes. So that, and then honestly, all of us, we got in there and it was like, and at one point we're all circled around. I was like, I'm sorry, but like, what? And they were like, yeah, give it up. So I went home that day and I got on my Facebook and I put as a post, I was like, fun fact, half the people in my construction class are women. And then I joked with the hashtag. I just thought like hashtag move over Bob. And the people that like just came out of the word to like like and comment because they were like, this is amazing. And it like sparked something. And then I thought, you know, like, I am not alone. I'm not alone. Like the fact that there were five other girls that were like, I'm going to enroll in this class. And the teacher said he's like, he's never had that kind of show up before. And so I was like, okay, there's something going on. Like there is something going on here. And then hence my like obsession with the skilled trades gap that I tell you by this point in time, I was like, oh my God, it's the skilled trades gap. Like this like full circle moment. And I kid you not, I remember driving in my car and I got to a stoplight. And when it really like hit me, that I was like, oh my God, it's women jumping in to help the skill trades gap. Like I just started bursting into tears because I was like, this is it again. Like what I tell you as a barber, I kid you not, hundreds of people have listened to me ramble on about the skill trades gap. It's the weirdest thing. I don't understand where, I mean, I do understand where the obsession came from. But like, anyway, so when it all kind of linked together, I was like, Oh my God, women are going to do this. Like we're going to help with the skill trades gap. So I, but I started like the Instagram page because I was like, well, I'm going to try to find and like, well, you know, obviously this is really inspiring to other women to see other women wanting to do this. So I was like, let me go find other women doing this. And so that I started that in 2017 is what I started that Instagram page. And at the time now it's like, it's amazing. I mean, you can find women in construction all over the place. At the time it was like a real search of like, where are they? I'm going to find you and stalk you. I mean, I joke that I'm like this, I'm like a super professional like fan girl stalker is basically how move over Bob is because I'm just like, Oh my God, this woman's amazing. And I just like, I don't know. So, so I just started reposting and it was like just finding them, reposting them, messaging them and being like, Hey, I'm getting into this, like thanks for being awesome and like paving the way because clearly you're doing something right. That's giving me the space to come in here to do this. So that's how move over Rob started and now it's just been this really interesting journey of like, both tackling this obsession that I've had forever of this skill trades gap and women and just all the things that I find so fascinating about just the construction industry and why it's the way it is and the problems that exist and then simultaneously also trying it myself with my own construction company. And I was talking to a friend of mine earlier who actually we did go into business together officially. So my construction business is now yes, expanding with with her. Yeah, she's another fellow woman in construction badass has been in the industry for 18 years here in the area. So she's just a dream to me, you know, renovating someone's kitchen. People think, Oh, it's just really hard to get a kitchen innovation. But it's like, if they only knew all of the reasons why all the decades of bad policy, the decades of stigmas behind, you know, like it's just, it's, it's my, to me, I just find it so interesting. There's so much about what's wrong in this country that I feel like you could just put a mirror to the construction industry. You touched on something at the beginning of the podcast and it was about like the shame you felt for going into barboring or not going to college, which I'll be honest with you, like from my perspective, I don't think anyone needs college anymore. And I've been an advocate of that for a long time. And so to me, your, your shame is more like your superpower, like you really didn't waste four years of your life. Do you see what I'm saying? But how do you deal with that now? Like, have you gone full circle internally with that as like this was my journey and it's so much more epic and the shame is gone? Yeah, I think the turning point for me was, you know, I got into it kind of not again, not at a choice. I did it because I had to and I had to make a living and I had to work. So the turning point was maybe like really just taking my future in my own hands with going into construction and, and really making the choice and saying like, this is, you know, how ironic is it? Yes, I really for a long time felt shameful about the fact because it did, like they really groomed you, especially my, you know, I'm a millennial, I'm 35. It was like go to college, you know, and I was a really good student. Like I really wanted to go to college. I really wanted to and I just couldn't do it. And so people don't realize how much money you can make, you know, doing this. Like I, I'm married to college educated man, but I, I bought our first house. Let's go. I love that. You know what I mean? Like, and yeah, I mean, it's my own insecurities that I'm projecting. I'm sure a lot of it, but just kind of just feeling like this, everybody assuming that if you didn't go to college, you don't have a college degree that you can't make a living for yourself. You can't do well. And, and I, and I did struggle with that. So I think at the end of the day, it did take, you know, me going, making the conscious choice and realizing like, yeah, you know, I'm going to go to community college, but you know, I'm going to go for vocational education. I'm not going to go to get a piece of paper. I'm not going to go to get a degree. I'm actually going to go get another trade because that's what I like. And so it was kind of more like taking my own power back as far as like what I was going to do with my life really helped to kind of validate and help me kind of stand firm with like, yeah, I mean, and I do, I feel really passionate about it. Like no, college is not the answer. College is the answer for sure. A doctor, you don't even want to be a doctor. Of course you're going to go to college, but like my generation and what they did and what the no child left behind act did to really just dictate what people are supposed to do and what is standard. You know what I mean? It was just so detrimental and just it's so messed up. We have people with all these degrees that they don't need and they could have done something else. The debt that they could do without as well. Oh yeah, my husband, we're still paying his college debt. Yeah. So I mean, I'm definitely an advocate for it. You know, I don't want to like, you know, at the end of the day, like with Move Over Bob, and I'm kind of careful about this too, like we feature architects, you know, we feature college educated women that are doing amazing things in construction because by all means, they needed that degree for what they're doing. So I think, you know, it's not necessarily about saying it's not for everybody or it is for everybody, but I just feel like we've done such a bad job about trying to be a little creative about how we approach our futures. And it's almost like, you know, this whole, I don't even like the conversation really around like white collar versus blue collar, you know, like I think at the end of the day, and the beautiful thing about construction is it takes everyone like, yeah, you need an engineer and guess what? That engineer does need to go to college, but that engineer also needs, you know, an amazing Mason. I also think if every engineer went to barbering for a year, they'd be a way better engineer. And I know those things don't don't they don't really align, but that's so true. Like show me an engineer who can communicate well. That's a rarity. Yeah. Yeah. So what's interesting about like your path is like you didn't go to college, you went to community college for your vocational degree. Do you see a future model where it's a sort of hybrid? Because we know that the trades are in high demand right now, because you know, everyone's going the path of college and whatnot. And there aren't that many programs that are set in place to help people facilitate any career in the sort of blue collar work. You are right near North Carolina State University. And is there a future where you see a program like that like a vocational program at a State University like that as opposed to a community college? Like is there a merger of the two where we can have these big state institutions get into more of a trade program? I do. I mean, that would be great. But I think again, this is kind of where my infatuation with the problem starts to happen because there's just so many different things to unpack as to why that's not there. And I think it would be, yes, obviously amazing and we need to do that. But it is, it does take a lot of undoing. I mean, I mentioned the No Child Left Behind Act again, right? And so for people that don't understand what the No Child Left Behind Act did, it sounds great, right? It's what they do with these things like so Bush enacted the No Child Left Behind Act. But really what I did is it said that, you know, students were going to be held to like every student should have just standardized testing, like we're going to measure every student's success and make sure it's the whole like equity versus like quality thing, you know, situation. And so what that did though is it basically said that really at the core of where the detriment happened is that it dictated the funding for schools based on their standardized test scores. So if your school and you know that your funding might be directly related to your standardized test scores, then you're going to start removing programs like shot class. You're going to start removing programs. Even art, you know, I was, I remember I was actually an orchestra at the time and my orchestra teacher was living because they were either trying to pull kids out of orchestra to get them into like AP classes. So it just started to change. And when you think about it's the education system, like this is like the foundation of where forget NC State like high schools, like the damage that that did and then the ripple effect of what that was communicating to students like me, like you don't go to college or failure. It's just, it's just crazy. So I guess to answer your question, I think that would be a dream and it would be amazing and it's absolutely what we need to do. But there's just, there's so many problems that need to be addressed and like, I don't know, it's a really, it's, it's a complicated, it's a very complicated issue, which is why I just continue to be utterly obsessed with it. But yeah, I think that would be amazing and it needs to happen. There needs to be a more open door and accessibility to the idea of getting into learning a skilled trade and it not being this, because it is, it's very like blue collar versus white collar. There's, there is, we can see it in this country. It's just, it's, it's the working class versus the college educated, you know, or whatever, you know, STEM versus, you know, like it's just, it's that whole conversation and, and just boils down to money. And I think what's been really interesting is a move over Bob, of course, it's just sparked like kind of a ridiculous amount of research that you would think I was getting paid for, but I'm not. The dream for me one day would be that it's not that complicated and it's not that big of a deal if somebody chooses to work with their hands for a living. So just to kind of go off of that brief backstory, Owen and I met in college. Our major shared a building with applied engineering and architecture students. And so we became close friends with a lot of these people and they started coming to us and saying, you know, I'm scared to go to class because I'm getting called dragatory terms and it was usually girls my age. And so I was hearing all about this and it was disheartening because it impacted their education ultimately. And so what is some advice you would have to those people who are facing dragatory terms in class or in their job and have you like face that in your job? Well, so like my gut reaction is to be like, they need to complain to somebody. They need to tell somebody report those guys. But you know, at the end of the day, like it's not that's not always the most realistic approach unfortunately. And sometimes it is just kind of a matter of shrugging it off, which I've done plenty of, which you know, I hate to say, but I mean, I think again, that's where community for women ultimately where you're going to get the most support is by, you know, talking to other women and not even just other women other men that you could be like, hey, man, like this, you know, this isn't cool. And because reality is, and that's the thing about move over Bob that has been something that I think has been really fun is that it's not about like women against men, right? Bob, to me in my mind is like a perfectly friendly guys ready to make some room for women to come in and help. You know what I mean? And at the end of the day, I think part of what is really important about women making progress in male dominated spaces is realizing we have allies, we have men around us who also will support us and kind of making sure that we're surrounding ourselves with when we have the choice, like when you're in class, unfortunately, you know, there's only so much you can do. So like really investing time into finding the right people around you outside of those areas to give you the support and to, you know, kind of help you navigate a bit and honestly shrugging it off, which I, like I said, it's sometimes shrugging it off can go a long way, like whatever. It sounds like that's what most people have done. It's just so disheartening to hear that some people even switch their majors just to totally avoid that. That is absolutely horrible. It's like I wish there was a simple solution as to like how to just completely, you know, make that never be the case for somebody because that is that is honestly that is absolutely horrific. I think it's exposure to it. Like I know on my my project that we're building right now, obviously female GC, we have a female PM, we have a female welder, and then we have a female plumber, and all of them own their own businesses. And so what's interesting is when I talk to some of the other tradesmen, they'll tell me they kind of prefer working for women now because they're much more detail oriented than men, like a male GC or a male PM will go figure it out, but a woman will go, all right, let's walk it. What are we doing here are the plans? Let's talk about it. And way more thorough, you know, and I think that's a female superpower, to be honest, I think women are just caring in general. And so whenever it relates to their craft, it's no surprise they care a little bit more, which obviously means better results. I'm seeing that in real time. And I think for the other people on the job, it's also like, oh, wow, they're interacting with four women owned companies now. So it's almost like your classroom, right? The six and six is becoming like the real world. And I think that exposure and talking about it is really important because it's not so, it becomes clear that it's shifting. And hopefully in 10 years time, it's not really a conversation. It's just like, oh, yeah, the change has been done. And Bob is gone. We've moved over Bob. No, he's not gone. It's move over Jenny, move over Jenny. Bob's coming back. No, I think I know 100% agree with everything you're saying. And I feel like that's kind of like, we even would like move over Bob. There's so many things that I, God, there's so many different ideas. And there's so many things that I would love to do to like implement real solutions. But I do feel like it's like you're saying right now the representation matters a lot. And I feel like, which is why we move over Bob right now, I've really held tight to the focus of like really diving deep into that representation and kind of choosing to use the platform to wrap my head around that as much as possible. Because like you said, I think it is the first thing. The first thing is to, to represent, find their presentation and then do everything. I want to do everything I can to like make sure that woman and their stories and what they're doing is seen and shared with as many people to make it as normal as possible. So we can really start to tackle a lot of the problems that are still at hand. I guess the question I would want to know is you're running this company, you have two kids, what is this like? Like what is that like? What is it like being mom, GC, you're dealing with someone else's kitchen or bathroom, which is mega stressful, you know, at the end of the day, you're a mom. And so that's also like a legit job. So I feel like with that too, for me, it's hard to find, to really come up with like one defining moment or one example, because of the fact that like I have spent the last five years tackling so many new things like motherhood and these different jobs. And I've also really tried to make the most out of this business and as far as exploring all the things. So I do have like, I mean, I guess there was a moment that kind of stands out to me. So my son also had a lot of health issues that first year of his, had his life. We spent some pretty extended stays at UNC Children's Hospital. And I struggle a lot with like the guilt and the balance of being present and choosing, you know, not to stay at home with my children and especially with his health issues going on. I remember there was a project I had, right? I had literally just gutted this woman's bathroom and we ended up at UNC Children's for 10 days. And I had to leave her bathroom completely gutted. It was just, you know, horrific at the time. And, you know, I remember having like at one point, I don't know, like I feel like I'm saying this and then it makes me feel guilty. I leave it as I'm saying it. But there was, I was at the tail end of our stay there. And I, there was a countertop guy and it would stall the countertop of the, or the counter, the vanity as we had this custom vanity. And I like left, I left for like two hours to go meet this guy and make sure that this woman's, you know, vanity top. And I felt, you know, I'm very fortunate. I have a husband who is so like my partner. Like there is no, and I honestly, when women are like, how do you do it? And it's like, I mean, it's hard. But also like one of the biggest things is I do have a husband and a partner who sees his role as like an equal provider for our children and, and smashes like any bit of guilt that I have when I feel like I need to lean in and do a little bit more. I think when you're a woman and you need to do a little bit more for work and you got to lean in and just try a little harder. Our cups are so full that it has to take away from things. And when you're a mom, it takes away from being a mom. And that's hard. And it's something that like I struggle with all the time. But it's really helpful that I have somebody who's like, no, squash the guilt. Like you're fine. He's fine. We're fine. Like, go install that vanity top. And so I did I left the hospital. You know what I mean? Like it was like, which, you know, this is what you got to do. So you started move over Bob as a way to highlight women in the field. Have you reached the point now where you are getting feedback from people, women in your community who joined the the ranks of women in construction because of move over Bob? I get lots of different emails and things. I get a lot of women still inquiring about yes, like getting into it. It's been really amazing to be like, Hey, yeah, I saw this. I decided I'm in a rural classes. And sometimes it's me just like, here, I'm fine. And I'm like searching for them in their state. I don't know, like just trying to help. So it has happened. And it's happened since day one to the point where sometimes, even in the very beginning, move over Bob has been really odd in the sense that people always think it's I mean, I know this sounds ridiculous. It sounds bigger than it is. And it's been like that since like day one, where I'll get people from like other parts of the world that are like, we're living on and we like move over Bob like, like, I mean, and it's happening like, I mean, literally like all over the globe. And so in some regard, it's always just like, it's me. But I feel like since then, it's just kind of become more of a like hell, yeah, well, let's talk, let me let me link you up. Let me let's let's figure out how this and that's what feeds me. I mean, it totally keeps me just like moving and just knowing that like every woman's story seems to spark some woman else out there, right? They see themselves in their story, which is why we try to be really thorough. The stories mean so much to us, like it really does like I really want their stories told in a way that is really resourceful, that validates their experience and shows that like the path is different for everyone. And they're so inherently resourceful, right? So yeah, we have gotten people that have reached out like I read this woman's story and I looked into this union or I looked into this program and you know, and that's the totally the driving force. So we'll just want more of that. So does that mean like as your career progresses, have you found it like easier to spread your message and more people are buying into it as you climb up the ranks? Or is it getting harder and people distrust you more now that like you're in more of a senior position on the projects? I am not in a senior position. Yeah. And nobody I work with thinks I'm in a senior position. No, I think that's the I fully I fully embrace that part of like that is the beauty of like when you are like at a blue collar work band, you got to like earn your chops. And like five years in is not me earning my chops. I am so much still a brand spanking new like still learning. But so in that regard, no, I'm like, I don't I still don't know what I'm doing. So let's figure this out. Like and I mean, there's I have more experience obviously. So I'm able to like when women reach out and they want more of my personal experience with my my business and what I've been doing and cabinet making or whatever. Of course, like, you know, that I have more than I feel like I can share. Absolutely. But at the end of the day, move over Bob is like so not about me at all. It's about the community. I love the mission. Please tell people where they can find you all over Instagram maybe reach out to you personally. Yeah, so you can definitely go to Instagram follow move over Bob. If you have any questions about move over Bob, you can email info at moveoverbob.com. My personal website is amorydesignbuild.com. But like I said, I actually just launched a new company, the Bauer Creative with my business partner, Mickey Paradise. But Amory design build right now is where you can find the work I've been doing the last five years. Thank you so much for joining. I really appreciate you sharing your story. Yeah, thank you so much guys. This has been great. This was part two in our four part series highlighting women in construction. We'd like to thank Cat Footwear for helping us share these stories. Since you've stuck around for the credits, consider subscribing if you're not already, or even better, leaving us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. It's honestly one of the best and easiest ways you can support us. We are at startup storefront on every social media platform except for Twitter, where you can find us at STS podcast LA. The startup storefront team consists of Diego Torres Palma, Natalia Capolini, Lexie Jamison, Owen Capolini, and me, Nick Conrad. Our music is composed by DoubleTouch. Thank you for listening. We'll see you next time.