 This is weaving the world ops on Wednesday, December 1st, 2021. It's the first day of December. Last month of 2021 and the last two years have been this strange blur of pandemic. So if you keep MatterMost open, you can usually find your chats pretty easily. Is that making more sense? It does, yes. So you download it from a play store, an Apple store? Either the Apple store or I think MatterMost.com. Let me check. Let me go to MatterMost and see if there's a download here spot on their website and pass you that link. Okay. MatterMost.com should be free trial, contact sales. Well, you've already got an account. So platform, product overview, security, try MatterMost now. That's interesting. They don't say, hey, here's the app. Stay aligned. So I contribute developer pricing solutions, use cases, industries. That's all about how to use MatterMost. Channels, playbooks, boards, product overview. They do not make it simple to find the app on the website. Download MatterMost, mobile and download apps. So you're finding them better by just searching for download MatterMost? Yeah. It's a terrible website design that downloading the app is not easy. So yes, download MatterMost, mobile and desktop apps. So install the desktop app on your Mac. That's the one to do because the desktop app is nice. The iPad app is nice too. And I often use, I often get into it from my iPad and all of them synchronized. So when you've read a thread, it keeps it good. So here's macOS download, install guide, et cetera. So you found the MatterMost.com download page, right? I did, yeah. Great. So you're all set. Okay, terrific. Great. And then Stacey and I were talking about she's going to be helping be sort of operations organizer, I guess sort of Jerry Wrangler. Stacey, is that like a Jerry Wrangler? I like that. I mean, I'm like, that's actually good language because I'm quirky and just trying to help me find my way through all the different things that need to get done to start this up. So we were starting that conversation, which will continue. And Stacey, I want to make sure I've got your texting info. So why don't I give you my phone number in the chat? There's my phone number. If you want to send me a text, I will reply and then we will have that set up. Okay. I'm going to do that when I get off the phone because right now I'm on the phone. Sounds great. Sounds totally great. And then, so right now there's kind of a couple of things that I keep bonking against to get an issue set up. I had a nice call with Pete yesterday and we wrestled about a couple of things as we sometimes have different opinions about which piece to do and where to go. The thing I'm trying to, I think top priority right now is to take that, that the Thursday call where we talked about the metaverse was a really lovely call. And what I'd like to do is take a piece of that call. I don't know exactly which piece yet. I haven't listened to the call yet again and that's going to take a little time. But I wanted to take a segment like a 15 minute segment of that call and treat that as an episode of Weaving the World. And what that means then is I have to record an intro and an outro of some sort, which is podcast smelling, right? Which says, hey, welcome to the Weaving the World podcast. I'm Jeremy Kalski. Here's our website, whatever. Here's what we're doing. I have to record those. We then have to stitch those things together. Pete is creating some software that will create a website, a page where the episode, so a page for each episode of the podcast, right? There's already WeavingTheWorld.org is a little website that I'm building on Google Sites, which I happen to really like to use. It's very, very simple. It's secure. I tried to love WordPress for 15 years and fell out of love constantly. And so I've given up entirely on WordPress. So my old website, therexpedition.com, was on WordPress and I had hired a web mistress to go build it out. And she used some of her custom code to do it. And then she changed her rates because she got popular and she needed a retainer. And her monthly retainer was higher than what I planned to spend with her. So I was like, oops, can't do that. And then somebody attacked my website and I ended up having to pay more for a company called Sucuri, which I hope is a good security website for WordPress blogs. I ended up paying more for Sucuri to secure my damned WordPress site and I was paying to host it. And I was like, this is just frickin' ridiculous. So finally, and finally, it got attacked again and somehow I couldn't even log back in to the WordPress site. Couldn't figure it out. It wasn't working and it wasn't like I was going to get a lot of support from WordPress. So I gave up and I deprecated it and I rebuilt the site. Therexpedition now lives in a Google site as a pale gesture of its former glory but I'm not really doing rex anymore and I need to figure that out. So anyway, a long story to say that Google Sites has not failed me. It's very simple. It doesn't do complicated things but it does a lot of things really well, including it integrates beautifully with all Google products. So you can embed a map, a spreadsheet, a doc, other kinds of things into Google Sites very simply and elegantly and that works very nicely. So happy about that. And the plan here is to take the simple website that I've started and point to pages that Pete will set up for each episode of the podcast so that they show up on the website. And it might be that the pages exist on Google Sites and that we're embedding code that Pete creates and Stacey embedding just means that instead of Pete generating what looks like an entire web page, Pete will generate the contents of a web page and then we'll put it in angled brackets basically. We'll put a link to that whatever Pete generates automatically, we'll put that in angled brackets on a page in the Google site and that will then automatically go suck in whatever content Pete has formatted and created and make it pretty and make it look like the rest of the website. So that's probably what we're doing. And the page for each episode needs to have a link to play the full episode as a video podcast. It needs to have the transcript of the call. And because I've taken on the challenge of also doing an audio podcast, it should probably also have either a link to an audio podcast separate page or probably not or just to play the audio podcast right here kind of button. And I'm sure you've seen on podcast there's like a link with what looks like a little bar of sound of little frequency waves for the sound. So click here and it'll actually play the podcast and you can scroll back and forth and so forth. And that's kind of a baseline for each episode. Pete and I got a little stuck just on the transcript part. There's a small complication in that for the Thursday calls until now we've been using collective next slightly better account on Zoom, which automatically creates a transcript by using otter.ai. And otter is a really nice speech to text system. And when it's embedded inside of Zoom, you get speaker identification because each speaker is logged in. So now the system knows that Hank is Hank and I'm me and you're you Stacey. And so the transcript shows up pretty reasonably out of that system. Problem is the calendar invite that Hank the other Hank set up Hank Nelson from collective next setup for those calls runs out with this Thursday's call. So tomorrow is the last one of those that they set up. And I talked with Pete and we're like, do I do I ping them back and say, hey, could you extend it or do we just switch to my regular Zoom, which is what we're in right now? And people was like, let's switch to the regular Zoom. But we're losing this added feature, which for a moment it looked like we could add to my account for five more bucks a month because I'm a Zoom pro user right now. And for five bucks more, you become a Zoom business user, except for the small print at the bottom of the pricing sheet that says minimum 10 accounts. So so minimum $200 a month instead of $20 a month. And we're like, oops, not happening. So so going to, you know, so the bump up to otter plus zoom by ourselves not happening. And I think just, you know, we're figured a different way. And then Pete and I started using a system called Descript, which Pete turned me on to a while ago. And Descript is an app that lets you edit podcasts in a really brilliant way. So what happens is that you drop an audio and video and or video recording into Descript, and it automatically creates a transcript, I think using Otter's technology, but it doesn't know to identify the speakers because it doesn't know who was on what track or anything like that. It sort of does identify speaker voices. So once you identify, oh, whenever this voice speaks its Hank, and whatever this voice speaks, it's Stacy, in principle, it can sort that out through the entire conversation, because it'll know by the tone of voice or whatever who each person was. But we haven't gotten that far. And partly what happened was I started trying to process and correct the transcript, which required a lot of editing just to get to a clean transcript. There was a lot of work to do. And Descript on my machine was grinding to a halt, like my machine was unable to cope. And it was kind of comical, where I would click on a word, double click on a word in the transcript in Descript, which is its own app you install. And we'd have to wait 20 seconds until something popped up that said, oh, you want to edit that? And we're like, oh, my God, this is clearly not going to work. So as part of that, I ping Jim Rutt to see if it was okay to use some of the funds that he granted to OGM to buy a new machine. So I've ordered a better MacBook, which should be arriving by December 8th, which is fabulous. It's a needed upgrade, which will not only let me sort of edit stuff better, but also, and more importantly, I've wanted to play with how I show up in Zoom in particular, but online in general, with my brain. And so there's a bunch of apps called virtual cams or webcams that you can use. It's software that sits between, there's a camera embedded in my MacBook here. And I'm currently pointed straight at the camera. But what virtual cams do is you point to the software, which then lets you do something with the image, which then sends it to the camera, right? And one of them, an older one is called Minicam, but there's a guy I know named Phil Libin, who was the CEO of Evernote for a while. That's why I know him. And he's founded a company called, which now is charging a monthly fee, but I was on their early beta. And is a very elegant virtual cam. Like it's really nice. And it lets you do things like I could, I could, within my little window on a Zoom call, I could minimize my head and put it anywhere. I could, I could put a background in animation or whatever. And then I could take my brain and screen share my brain and make it large or whatever. I could mess around with that really nicely just while on anybody's call. Right? So is a virtual camera? Yes. Wow. So there's no hardware. It's just software and you pay them. You have a monthly subscription fee. And I don't know what it is right now. I'm hoping it's under like 10 or 15 bucks because these things add up. But my goal here is to experiment with what, you know, the place I'm trying to head is what does an OGM conversation look like between several different people who are using several different technologies? I happen to be addicted to the brain. Gene Belanger is a black belt in Kumu, et cetera, et cetera. What does a conversation among different tool users look like? And in that case, I'm not interested in how I'm trapped in this little rectangle, but I'm really interested in some new space that we can, you know, talk to each other through and with. And that's still out on the horizon, unfortunately, after almost two years of OGM. So, so the voice ID thing, so Stacy, the voice ID thing might actually be something we can collaborate on. I might also need to outsource the transcription cleanup to just someone somewhere who's really good and really fast at that and does it somewhere, you know, does it offline? And we sort of don't care where in the world they are. But I may need to find somebody who's like really good at that. Because for example, when I go to here, let me just find a tab. Here's one of Jim Rutt's shows. This is a transcript of him talking to Daniel Schmackdenberger. Let me put the link in the chat. This is a chat of him talking to, oh, good, $8.33 a month. Thanks, Hank. That's great. It looks interesting. Looks great. Yeah, it's quite powerful. There's another one called Galactic Camera, which my friend John Borthwick apparently helped fund it because he runs BetaWorks out of New York. And so I installed it and it was just ridiculous looking. I didn't look, I didn't like it at all. So I uninstalled it. I got rid of it. Many cameras, the older one, I haven't seen what they're up to now. I should go take a look. But everything I've seen about him looks pretty professional and I like a lot. So, yeah, exactly. So, so you'll see that on the episode page for the Jim Rutt show, there's a really nice transcript. Like the ante in this game, I think that the baseline is a nice transcript. And so, so Pete and I are trying to get to the point where we can automate as much of that process as possible so that there is a web page for every episode with a nice transcript, with a pointer to where the video lives, with a pointer to where the audio lives. And then the audio on the video, each need to have an intro and an outro attached to them edited in. And then the question is how much to edit the calls. And I'm trying to do this with minimal editing of the calls, because any moment you start getting into heavy editing, the moment you get into heavy editing, you are talking about time and money, because, because these are temporal media and you have to listen to them, then you have to edit, then you have to listen to them again, then you, and somebody is going to have to use a whole bunch of time to do the good editing. So I'm trying to keep the editing either automated or minimal. Descript has a really cute feature where it automatically detects ums and coughs and long pauses. And you can press a button and it'll highlight them all and then you can press another button and it'll get rid of them all. Right? So, so Descript has a bunch of really magical features that make it a really, a particularly good editing program. One of which is once it's done its transcript, you can highlight words in the transcript, remove them or move them, and it'll move that clip of audio or video around. So when you output the finished produced podcast episode, all the edits you did to the text are actually done in the video, which is like, whoa, what? Yeah. So that's quite brilliant as well. So I'm hoping that with a faster machine, I think Descript has an M1 Mac version, and Stacey, the M1 is the new chip that Apple just basically until, until these last two generations of MacBook, Apple was using Intel chips for their MacBooks. And the one that I'm sitting here in front of has an Intel chip. Apple then took the chip design in-house, designed the M1 chip, and now the M1 Plus, I think it's called, which is on the newest MacBooks, which is like three times faster. Yes, I've seen all your excitement. I've been listening to you guys and watching your eyes light up at the thought of- And has more battery life. It's like insane what they've done. Exactly. And so I'm thrilled at the beginning of this, but the problem is with a new chip for software to run quickly on it, it has to be rewritten for the new chip, right? It has to run native. Otherwise, you run it in an emulator called Rosetta, like the Rosetta Stone to translate. So Stacey, an emulator means it's software that pretends to be some other hardware, right? So the M1 has an emulator called Rosetta that pretends to be an Intel Mac so that you can still run software that only runs on Intel Macs. And I pinged the brain and they said we don't have a native version for the M1, but it runs just fine in Rosetta. So that's where I'm heading, right? All of which to say that there's some mix of automation and humans that will turn into a finished podcast and a transcript and a page and all of that. And Pete and I have been wrestling to try to get to the point where we have that, and we're kind of close, but not there yet. And two months have already run by, like today is the first day of December. And I kind of had October and November to stand up some podcast episodes. So I'm actually behind schedule at this point. And then a bunch of other things have happened in the meantime, which I'll also get to, but once we've got that starting point that I've just described, that's when things get OGM-y and get interesting. So Pete took that Thursday call and he cropped it. We have a project cropped where he basically took it and deconstructed it and started baking it into the massive wiki and linking it up and a whole bunch of other really interesting things. All of which are beyond the scope of this initial phase of what I'm trying to get done kind of automatically to any new podcast episode. So the conceit of leaving the world is that we have episodes and then we have shadow episodes or behind or the making of episodes or composting episodes or we're still working and still not happy with any of the language around it necessarily. I don't have a real favorite. But there are other episodes where we look at the content of the first of the episode and then weave it into the world, into the big fungus. And that means using different kinds of tools to map the logic and the ideas and the articles that it came from, which I already do in my brain sort of by default. So I'm already doing this part. I'm looking for other people interested in doing it with other tools and I'm interested in the conversation between us and any other interested party in deepening the ideas and then representing them in some way and putting all of those different representations into the comments. And that might mean that at the end of the episode page there's a oh and this is what happened in the in the composting show and then it's just a bunch of links to a map, you know, a mind jet, a mind map that somebody creates or a Miro board that somebody writes for that episode or for a series of episodes around the same theme. That's really cool because we want, we want to have continuity and flow. We're actually looking for a shared memory that that that is actually useful. Like we're not we're not I'm not trying to stand this up because it's an interesting exercise. I'm trying to stand this up on the hypothesis that some of us will hit on some really, really interesting ways of representing stuff. Hey Pete, I was just explaining our our you are locally muted, but I think on purpose. Yes, good. Good, he'll be back. So once we have a default episode, then we book a follow up episode where we can use the transcript and then start doing some weaving into the big fungus, which I don't know what it's going to look like. I know what my little piece is going to look like because I'm a brain black belt and I, you know, and I'm busy using the brain in a way that heads toward what I'm saying. I'm trying to figure out how to edit curate and craft my brain so that it's a useful artifact in that particular way, which doesn't mean changing my behavior that much, but it means interesting ways of thinking about how I create thoughts and what I connect up. So there's been that conversation we've been having about investing and telling your kids, you know, teaching your kids about investing and all that. And when I see that, and there's also the other conversation about nuclear efficient and nuclear power and all that. And I see those conversations on a mailing list that's private. And I cry a bit because when I see good ideas go by on a private mailing list, I'm like, wow, those are really interesting things are going into the bit bucket, because nobody's ever going to look them up again. And, and if they were really good thoughts and they were clear, they ought to be curated or guarded into someplace that's public facing, that's available to, to, to everybody else. Hence the big fungus and some attempt to make it visible. So Pete, I was just telling those sort of the full, the fuller story of what you and I are trying to create through some automation and some human intervention, to stand up separate pages for episodes of Leaving the World, and what what would be on the pages. I talked about the script. I talked about virtual cams. I mentioned that I've ordered a new Mac that should be coming by the 8th. And, and Stacey and I have talked about her assisting me as an ops person and we're on board. We're going to continue closing that and Stacey's on the road for what could be three weeks, but basically as of tomorrow night will be in a place where she's as good as being at home because she'll be in a stable spot, not, you know, not working out of cafes or, or doing a high wire act on the road. So that's kind of where we are. And I've been talking most of the call describing all these things. So I should stop for a little bit and see what questions Stacey and Hank and you have. Well, I tested your Jerry. So you'll see if my text came through. Cool. Let me go check. All of these thoughts on the on the mailing lists, like the threads that you just mentioned. Can they go on an OGM website somewhere beyond Matrimost? Can they be made available to people who Google the future of the of the nuclear energy or stuff like that? So yes and no. I mean, the Google group is intentionally private so that we can manage who's there to kind of minimize trolls and all of that. But there's this implied assumption that the conversation is private because it's a private mailing list, which we would be breaking by publicizing these sorts of things in a sense. So there's there's that. Is it really private? Can people see it through Google? It's private to join, but I think it's visible in Google groups. So if you were to search for it, you'd find it. If you were not a member, I think you could find it. And I think a non-member could read. Are you opening an incognito window to see if you can get to it? I am. And the first thing I have to do if I go to groups.google.com and sign in with my Google account. Right, exactly. But don't you have like 100? I only have a few. Okay. Because you could sign in with any other one that doesn't have that's not on the list, right? I could. And that would have to say maybe I will. Yeah. Okay. So Hank, to answer your question, I wouldn't want the raw conversation as it showed up on a mailing list to go straight into this artifact that I'm talking about. I was actually sitting in the shower like an hour ago. I was sitting thinking, oh, okay. So one question would be one question would be an assertion in the mind map. And for me, I was thinking about my brain. I need to add a thought that says, hey, forget about stockpicking ETFs or the way to go, because someone else does all the work of averaging. And these things tend to play out pretty well. Look at some history. And that that would be one investment approach. And then there'd be a thought above it called investment strategies. And I've got something like that. I've got investment advice for sure. I've got a whole bunch of stuff in there. But I haven't organized it into a series of investment strategies. And I certainly haven't organized it into investment strategies understandable by a teen or a young person, right? A younger person, which is kind of the goal here. And so the wisdom that came by about investing would be super interesting for me personally to curate into the brain as that series of logic steps. And then, hey, if you're on this investment advice, here's some ETFs that somebody recommended that we think are pretty stable and pretty good right now, blah, blah, blah, blah, would be interesting under that. And then there would be a different approach that says, oh my gosh, you have to take some money and put it into crypto. And then that's its own huge conversation, et cetera. And then in some other part of my brain, there's already conversations about the viability of nuclear fuel, nuclear energy, as we're trying to green the economy. And I've got a bunch of things that Amory Lovens has been saying on a different, more scientific list, which are brilliant about, and he's like pretty heavily against nuclear fuel, nuclear energy. And I was sort of reading our lists going, oh, okay, so a couple people are being convinced that nuclear needs to be part of the mix. But I don't know enough to bridge that gap and make it visible as an interesting argument that addresses the questions instead of making blanket statements, right? And so I don't really want to cut and paste just the conversations from the mailing list. I want to take those as feedstock for a different composting conversation about, oh, okay, what's the logic of how to organize this? And how does it show up in a way that is useful to a newbie coming in and trying to do this? Yeah, I'm just on the OGM website. And aside from three videos and a few links, there's not much there. That's correct. Wouldn't it be interesting to sort of at least have a list of the different threads so that people might be stimulated? Oh, if OGM is talking about these type of things, it could be very useful to me. Try a different website, hank, wiki.openglobalmind.com, which isn't going to satisfy you, but it will at least point you. And it'll give you more depth because that's the OGM wiki. wiki.globalmind.com. wiki.openglobalmind.com. So the same website, but wiki.infront. Yeah, just put wiki as the high-level identifier. And then click all pages when you get there. And the base OGM website is really simple because we're using a very simple site builder that's pointed to some markdown files. And a site builder doesn't have a lot of bells and whistles on it. So the page is really simple. Well, we don't have like a nav menu. Well, Hank said you don't have a lot of content here. Well, that too, but kind of intentionally, there's no like... It would be easy to make or read me. The homepage could have links to everything. Could be a lot longer. The reason that website is small is because the intent is that's kind of the advertising marketing site. And then one of the big links there should be to the wiki. And the wiki is where everybody edits it instead of a few people have a marketing presence for Open Global Mind to use a phrase. The mailing list is not public. Although, interestingly, if you search for Open Global Mind, all one word, you do see some references in the peer-gadget list and the KikoLab meme factory list interesting in Google groups. Okay. So I thought when I set it up that I'd set it to be public, but membership only. It appears to be private. I will go back and look at it. Well, which may be what we want. Yeah, exactly. That's still an interesting question. And partly I'm in my lifetime online, which feels lengthy now. I've seen way too many super brilliant things said in private conversations that have disappeared, right? And I'm extremely interested in the act of curating them so that they survive and live in a more concise, organized space, whatever that means. Yeah. Right. And I have a slightly different mission, which is less about organization, although I think organization is important and more about promiscuity. Right. So massive wiki is one of the things massive wiki is built to do is to make information float away kind of and recombine and do interesting things. Be fruitful and multiply. As well as also being able to be organized and look like a real website, real content. On behalf of our good friend Mr. Arena, I have to also say that there is an OGM homepage on Trove. On Trove. And there are links to the arena pages for member list. We're basically from that simple homepage. We're actually pointing over to Trove for three different lengths, right? A calendar member list and affiliated projects, something like that. Something like that. Yeah. And which is good in the sense of what OGM wants to be and is trying to be, which is like, how do we distribute our presence? How do we use? It's also kind of nice in terms of what Jordan and Lyonsburg are trying to do with this flotilla of entities, which is how do we use and combine the superpowers of each different entity to create something sort of more powerful together? Cool. And then Pete's tendency toward promiscuity, a sentence I enjoy saying, is very different from my tendency toward curation. And I think the two are good combinations together. I think that that energy, like these are polarities to manage. These are not opposites to resolve. And you only get to good curation with a lot of promiscuity. But my my feeling is without really good curation somewhere, it just turns into a jungle overnight. It's like the yard left for a little too long on its own. We had, when we lived in San Francisco, we had a yard for a while that was overrun with blackberries. And several times we tried pulling the vines. It's like really painful stupid work. And then they like blackberries are the cockroaches of the plant kingdom. They just keep coming back and survive almost anything until we finally took like drastic measures and got rid of them. But they were haunting us for a long time. There was also this tree in the middle of the yard at the beginning, which it turns out, I think it's called something like a Gabriel's Horn, I'm forgetting now, but it only has a scent at night. And I had these, it had these beautiful big blooms that hang that hung downward. They were beautiful. But you step on the terrace at night and it would be like somebody sprayed perfume outside. It was a really delightful smell, but the tree filled the whole little backyard. And then during the day, no scent at all. It was really cool. So it was clearly looking for nocturnal insects, I guess. So Stacey, the place that I paused my description was, oh, and by the way, I said in front of myself to also have an audio podcast for Weaving the World, which then means going to another tool like Anchor or Blueberry or something else. My preference is toward Anchor just because I've used it a little bit before and I haven't installed, but I was looking at other tools and I wasn't convinced by any of them actually. Pete, I'm wondering if there's like somebody who's done a brilliant summary and has like better recommendations than I was able to find. But that also means taking the audio portion of the podcast and then creating with that an audio podcast that plays nicely, that looks good. And one of the nice things about Anchor is that it does soup to nuts. You can start recording. You can record an episode in Anchor. You can invite guests in and record their voices and blend them in. You can add sound effects. You can edit the resulting piece. You can string together a bunch of stuff. You can then publish it and you can send it all the way to iTunes podcast or some other kinds of podcast hosting with a little icon that says, this is the pretty cover of my podcast. And all of that seems to really work. There we go. It's a hallucinogenic if you eat it. Really? Damn it. Missed that march, huh? Linked to many. I thought it was like deadly. Like you don't like, don't eat this, but hallucinogenic is interesting. Cool. Thanks. Thanks. I have to mention David Bovell and Wendy Elford and I, the garden crew, are working on a process called knowledge casting, which combines a podcast, peer reviewed journal, knowledge garden like a massive wiki, and sometimes a few other things like smart contracts and smart tokens. And we haven't rescheduled our call. We were going to sort of do a bit of a mind-null over that, which I'd love to do. And if there's an overlap between these two things and we can be knowledge gardening or knowledge casting, weaving the world calls, that's a big win from my perspective for sure. Cool. Thoughts, questions, suggestions? I would love to go over everything as a project with Stacey at some point, maybe when she's a little bit more settled in the place. Sounds good. Sounds good. So Stacey, maybe day after tomorrow, when you're like Friday or something, when you're actually settled in one place? Yeah. Or the other thing, you know, since you guys are on the West Coast, I'll be all checked into the hotel by like, you know, four or five o'clock your time and I'm available. I ran on East Coast hours, so. Oh, you're East Coast, okay. I'm around from like 9 a.m. to 6 p.m. Eastern. East Coast time. And Stacey's in North Carolina right now, on a beautiful lake. So two things. So Jerry, can I ping you like around five, four or five o'clock your time just for like five minute call and then Pete, can we, anytime you want on Friday? Yeah, that sounds great. You bet. Perfect. Yes, for me as well. Okay, great. Pete, how does that knowledge casting work? Which part? Well, the part that you're working out with David and Wendy. Suppose in trying to map the voices of Gaia, we would send out requests to all different communities, school classes, football clubs, amateur football clubs, whatever all around the world. We're doing it a little bit differently. I like the idea of just making an open call. Voicing Gaia is actually facilitated. So let me see if I can pull up like an internal document here. So the, another part of, I'm still a little bit, David's got a much finer grain sense of what's doing what, and he's got some several overlapping structures, which kind of all are doing similar things at different scales and different things. But the idea of voicing Gaia is that, that we would actually choose, you know, 10, 20 communities around the world, and then have a crew of folks that would run probably in-person workshops, collecting spoken words, drawing stuff, music, and then collating that into something what it sounds a lot like weaving the world at some point, where it's like, and all of that turns into a podcast. The other parts of knowledge casting in general include, so you've got workshops which are both fed from the knowledge commons and feed into the knowledge commons. And the knowledge commons turns into the podcast and also is connected with a peer-reviewed journal. And I think that's the key parts of it. We've got something else in collaboration with another person in Australia. We're working on something called chain fringes, a chain of conferences. So another destination voicing Gaia and several other feeds of chain fringes are heading towards Stockholm plus 50, which I think is next year. And each of the podcast series, knowledge casting series are both independent, and if you step back far enough, they're all kind of doing the same thing in different places. So voicing Gaia is one proposal that we've got outstanding. Another proposal we're working on right now is for actually a couple of them that are kind of in the pipeline. One of them is for Smart City in Southeast Asia, Smart City Development in Southeast Asia. So that community would not be workshops of different kinds of people around the world, but it would be workshops of architects and construction engineers and finance people and stuff like that, all talking about, okay, we're building this huge, we have this huge Smart City project in Southeast Asia. How is that going to come together? Another one is one that Wendy is sourcing, which is water projects in Australia. Australia is kind of a desert continent, not unlike the American West kind of. Water is a hugely important thing, and there's a bunch of organizations and conferences and legal stuff, federal legal stuff, probably state legal stuff too, that combines to make interesting in large scale kind of water things. So another chain france would be a collection of, I guess that one, Wendy's got a particular effort she's worked with for a couple years already, with different water groups around watershed in Australia. And the really interesting tension for Wendy there is there's the developed way of looking at a river, a big river, and the indigenous way of looking at a big river. She says the indigenous people look at it as source. It's a living thing. The river is literally a living thing in what I would call Western world, although I don't know how that applies to Australia. In the developed view of the non-indigenous people living and working and buying and selling stuff in Australia, the river is a resource, you know, you cut it up into acre feet or whatever, and you buy and sell it and you damn it when you feel like it, and you know, it's a it's a resource, not source. So there's that one conference that's going on, she's got a she's aiming towards a conference development workshop, etc, early 2022. That is going to be one in a series of chain frances about water around the world. Obviously, lots of people care about water and we can set up a chain france that works for water and watersheds and legalities and indigenous rights and all that kind of stuff in different places around the world. All of that goes towards Stockholm plus 50, along with, you know, smart cities and indigenous rights and, you know, lots of stuff. I feel like I did a poor job. David, if you're watching this in the future, I'm sorry. It was interesting. I like it. There's a, as you can tell, there's, you know, multiple shell multiple layers of, you know, the onion and and multiple parts of that. There's, you know, the smart contract legal stuff. There's the knowledge stuff. There's human factors and user centered design stuff. So all of that is kind of getting mixed together to do lots of different things. But, you know, weaving the world's and knowledge casting and the other stuff that we're working on are, you know, very resonant. Could it be used in that mass outreach approach that I'm interested in to contact several thousands of people and communities with specific questions about this and this is happening in your area? What does Gaia think about it? What would Gaia say? Yep. And then weave those things together? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense as an approach. Currently, something like voicing Gaia is, again, that curated is kind of a weird word, but, you know, assembled and facilitated, rather than reaching out to lots of thousands, you know, we're collecting and facilitating dozens. But obviously, you know, it's the same kind of general jack, the same kind of general human processes. Wendy in particular is also, she's hooked into Dave Stone's community. And of course, Dave Stone does and his folks do that kind of thing where they reach out into a big space of thousands of individuals and groups. Using really sophisticated sense-making tools. So, yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Well, I think it could be the voicing Gaia could be both. Yep. I agree. In fact, I haven't exchanged any telegram messages with David for a week, so I should really get back to him. You definitely should. And I'll mention it on our next call, yeah. And I would love to have some weaving the world calls about water. Just cut through that space and see what we can do there and see how that feeds the voices of Gaia, etc. So, that's a good idea. That'd be awesome. Yeah. Friend of mine. So, when I lived in Manhattan and worked for Esther, I shared a flat with Tamara Damon, whose mother was Betsy Damon, who was kind of a performance artist back in the heydays in Manhattan, and had an act called the 5,000-year-old woman, and then a bunch of other stuff, but she became a keeper of the waters. She designed a park on a city in inner China that's a city on a river, and the river was really kind of messed up. And the park she created was shaped like a fish. So, water would be siphoned off the river through the mouth of the fish, and then it would go through settling ponds, and the whole thing was a park you could walk across, but it had bubbling areas, settling ponds, other kinds of things. And to the point where the tail of the fish fed the water back into the river. And the whole thing, they gave her the key to the city, and this was 25, 30 years ago. Somewhere in the middle of China, I can find the city if you want. But super, super interesting, and she was all about waters. Cool, Stacy. I think we're about to wrap this call. So, happy driving. Thanks for being on the call. Thanks for jumping in to help, and we'll be in touch, as they say. Okay, looking forward. Talk to you at five. Yeah, bye-bye. Bye. Cool. Anything else for right now? Not to cheapen something real with fiction, but... Jerry, your description of the river and the fish reminded me of a Disney movie, Rhea and the Last Dragon, which has the same kind of thing, dragon-shaped. So, the four or five lands that the protagonist and her dragon friend have to navigate are provinces, essentially, or states or whatever around, collected around the shape of a dragon when you zoom out. And there it is. Look, dragon. I've not seen the movie. Thank you. So, I wonder if there's some connection, you know, some Disney research person. Ran into the park or something. Yeah, that'd be really fun. And I think I have a... Let me just find it. If this is... Let's see if the site is still there. I'll click on the link. I have kind of a fascination or love-hate relationship with the Disney as they stumble into cultural sensitivity and awareness. One of the most amazing things I've ever heard is that you can go on YouTube. One of the things that Disney does, because it's so big and so worldwide, is it translates its movies into 20 languages, you know, like that, including all the songs and stuff like that. And it's animation, so... Yeah, so you can go on YouTube and find one of the theme songs, the one I happen to remember is Colors of the Wind. And let's not get started on Pocahontas and the English. But you can listen to, you know, somebody's put a supercut together of 20 languages, and the song runs through 20 languages a verse at a time, you know. And it's amazing. It's like, you know, I wish I could show that to, you know, somebody from 200 years ago. Look where culture has come. And then, of course, you have to explain that. I had this... This reminds me. I probably told this story again, and I'll tell it... I probably told this story before, and I told it again. African refugee, my wife was helping out with the African refugees who speak French. And so one of them finally got out of the jail that we keep refugees in and was on his way to family in New York, I think. So we lived in Southern California near Disneyland. We had the opportunity to bring him to Disneyland for a day, which is like, you know, from the jungles of South America, starting from Africa and, you know, making a way to the U.S. and all the weird things about the U.S., and then to bring somebody to Disneyland. That's just an old trip. But he's obviously African-American, black-skinned, and I took him to the Song of the South ride, you know, and we got to go on the ride. And I tried to start explaining the Song of the South to somebody from Africa. And I couldn't really, you know, but it was a weird thing, thinking of all the cultural stuff that goes on and, you know, ends up in Anaheim. Yep, yep, entertainment. And I used to navigate the very perilous rivers of the world on the Jungle Cruise ride, so... We enjoyed the movie. Yeah. And they have the dumb jokes. And Dwayne Johnson does a good job of delivering. Yeah. Dwayne Johnson is an interesting character. Pete, thank you for the story. That was really nice. I like it. It's ringing your bell. I think I have heard it before from you. Kumandra. So, you know, this thing, like, did they do a good thing by compressing, you know, five, five or six, like, cultures into Kumandra? Is that a good thing or a bad thing, you know? And this is a whole intense conversation about cultural appropriation and misappropriation that rides there, right? And then how do you honor something without deluding it or stealing from it or whatever? Yep. Good question. Can you, even? Exactly. I remember watching Moana. And at the start, I was just furious with the movie. I'm like, are you kidding me? These people know exactly about all this. And I'm like, oh, that's the plot of this movie. But I was so angry at the start. I was like, good Lord, seriously? It's like I'm angry at Harry Potter. Like, he's the stupidest wizard there ever was. Like, I got really tired. I got really tired of Hermione being like brilliant and Harry being like an idiot. And all this thing. Why is Harry the hero and not Hermione? No idea. It should be her. Yeah, but that's the way to get people involved in it. Of course. Of course. That's the way that kids are changing. That's the way that the young girls are saying, yeah, I had the hero. Look at those seven books or seven films. Yeah. I thought it was very clever to do it that way. But they're all known as the Harry Potter series. Oh, yeah. Oh, I'm a very big fan of Harry. They're not the Hermione Granger series. Yeah, but that's not subversive. That can be put aside. Why isn't there a Hermione Granger series? Why isn't there like a sequel and a prequel? And like, I'm sure there's lots of Harry Potter fanfic, unless they've been really good about stamping it out. But anyway, good. On that, on that interesting note, thank you very, very much. This has been super useful. Yeah, really enjoyed. See you on the inner tubes. Yes, bye-bye. Bye for now.