 Because you know I keep telling you know we got to talk about another time you get to my next guest all right Jennifer Thanks for the update. Okay. Thanks Ernie. Bye. Bye Christian youth by Steven I got you. I'm here. Okay. Go ahead and count the five for me one two three four five Hey again One two three four five. All right. Here we go Hashtags sleeping in have been retweeted over a million times by lazy Catholic teens while tweets like If God was real how come there's so much murder and I'm still Catholic I just don't go to church or believe in Jesus have been especially successful with college students who are questioning the church's teaching The Pope is this active on social media and a skeptical about God as I am look. He just treated. I'm not religious I'm spiritual. That's totally how I feel Pope Benedict's aides say his next project involves reaching out to Muslims by sitting down with Islamic leaders and proclaiming his undying allegiance to a law This is the onion news network and now live from the studios of freedoms Felix Ernest Hancock Believe me when I say we have a difficult time ahead of us But if we are to be prepared for it, we must first shed our fear of it I stand here without fear because I remember I Remember that I am here not because of the path that lies before me, but because of the path that lies behind me I Remember that for 100 years. We have bought these machines and After a century of war. I remember that which matters most We are still here and remember Your independence Amir in his Hancock here in Phoenix there was a naive and the be a ut full studios of freedoms of the NAS Freedon's Phoenix, uh, oh Stephen can sell it. Oh man intellectual private. I got a bunch of bunch of bunch of bunch of update We need to do and the next hour Frederick Heffernmel is going to be talking to us about the Nobel Prizes for whatever, you know this Nobel thing I'm like, I'm not sure I want one I mean seriously so we'll get into that Stephen can sell a intellectual property I have a lot of specific issues to do but first, you know, how are you? I'm very good. How you doing Ernie? Okay. This is let me tell you it was probably three years ago about Where we first were introduced we had you on the show We talked about various things man. It's intellectual property if that is not a touchy issue for some people including You know libertarians arguing about how many libertarians can dance on the head of the freedom pan I mean, you know, they are definitely, you know one side of the other on this thing and I'm and even intellectual property If you got a if that is a property Who enforces it? I mean a bunch of anarchist libertarian Well, we need to have a enough government to enforce intellectual property. I mean, you know So I'm I'm wondering how the debate has been going over the last few years when on my radar screen It really started, you know, hitting the libertarian as we're we argued all this to okay war. We got that taken care of The force okay, we got that and and we can privatize this and we're we're making our way more towards the volunteer We're getting closer and closer and closer and then intellectual property. How how's your position holding up? And what is your position go? Okay, so, um, I agree with you understand what you're talking about. Um, It is a touchy issue. It's hard to accept. Um My impression is that more and more libertarians have become opposed to intellectual property But they see the problems with it. They see how the government is using it as an excuse to police the internet, for example um So I think more and more people are becoming hostile to it The problem is look, I don't think it's the worst problem in the world. It's one of the top three or four or five I think actually go ahead and bring your camera down a little bit for me bring your camera down a little bit for me Will you please? Oh, sorry. Yeah. There you go. How's that? Tell me she got it. It's one of the top issues But the what makes it in a way one of the worst problems is that it goes under the rubric of property, right? So people are confused by this We don't we don't believe the drug war is a property rights issue Or in other words, we don't believe that you can justify the drug war by calling it a property rights issue In fact, it violates property rights same thing with regular war same thing with the central the central bank the federal reserve things like that Okay, but the problem with ip is we sell these patent and copyright laws As property rights and most of us are in favor of property rights So when the government calls it a property right, we're sort of confused or should we be in favor of it? Or should we not be in favor of it? And then you have these people that are opposed to the state opposed to legislation as a way of making law They get confused like well, how would we have a free society that supported these property rights that really only came about because of legislation So I think it's it's an issue that makes people reevaluate their fundamental presuppositions about justice about rights about fairness about freedom Liberty and property rights Well, how do you define? See you're right. I I would see that they would take advantage of using certain intellectual Of course, I'm intellectual. I I support intellectuals. I'm an intellectual supporting kind of guy property. Absolutely prep If you can you know define something, you know In such a way that you know, like you say libertarians go well, of course, we're intellectual property supporters I mean, you know, so I could see it's a naming thing. But what are we actually talking about and we'll get to the Shire society davi barker el nil smith thing at the freedom summit this February we had judge federal magistrate judge buttrick, you know Was going to do an arbitration mediation friday night time We were working on that behind the scenes We didn't announce it because we were going back and forth between everyone and in the end El nil smith decided look i'm not putting up what I consider to be my property up for evaluation by somebody Which is a perfectly legitimate, you know Concern and a position a lot of us would take on things that we believe that's our property Hey, i'm not putting it up for discussion. It's mine. Well, the problem is and we'll get into it Let me go ahead and define it and we'll get in in Because I think this is illustrative of a very good point El nil smith and some of his writings I don't know decades ago wrote a thing as the declaration of unanimous consent Right. Well, that was I signed it a long time ago. Right. I remember that now that was taken by the Keneax or free state guys or shire society and then those guys they thought that was cool You know, they wasn't take it wasn't taken let's step back It wasn't taken it was copied and used and remodeled. All right, so he didn't he didn't he's not missing his Okay, no, we'll get you'll help me out here. I'm sure I know thank you But you know the point is is that that was Copied used took the brain cells that accumulated that information regurgitated it into their own whatever So davi barker took and stylized it and you know did the calligraphy on it and the shire society declaration Well instead of being honored or this is exactly what I wanted to happen or manifested in or whatever El nil, you know, I I I'm not really sure The argument was hey, it's mine. I should at least get some credit I should something would say you of course acknowledge they get credit. Yeah, they acknowledged that, you know It came from him. He actually didn't want credit. He said this is not well because they changed it a little bit modified Let me finish steven They modified it to the point to where he's going. Look you vandalized my stuff, man You changed it. It's not my now. It's not mine. You're right. That's you know, it's all right You don't want me to know about something. You don't want me to you know, take that property or whatever's in my head Then don't give it to me. I mean, you know, then you know because the second it hits my head It's mine now, you know or also or shared or its words or whatever So this argument it sounds like you know something about it go ahead and define the argument We got like a minute and a half here What the argument is and then we'll use this as a really good example what we're talking about it goes into other areas But can el neal claim in your opinion? a Property right in words that he wrote on paper No, he cannot uh, he doesn't actually I look I respect him. I like it works. I've bought a lot of them I signed his declaration But in my opinion, I agree with the anarchist ben juman tucker who wrote over a hundred years ago He said if you want your invention to yourself keep it to yourself Okay, if you make an idea or information public Then you have to expect that other people might learn from it If you sell a product then you have to expect that people might compete with you by copying Or emulating what you do if I sell an iphone and it's a hit product a new touchscreen smartphone I have to expect that if it's a popular hit it makes profits That profit signal will draw competitors. This is what we call and quote marks on the free market Competition, this is what we call learning. This is what we call emulation. There is nothing Immoral or wrong with copying Emulating people or learning from what information we acquire on the free market If you are going to make a fact public for whatever your reasons Then you have to expect that people might learn from that information And if that involves the ability to copy what you're doing or to learn from it or build on it or remix it Then so be it that is what we call freedom and the free market The attempt to stop this is actually anti private property anti liberty And empowers the state to restrict our freedoms, especially with the internet Which is one of the most important tools for freedom in existence in human history And anything we do should be aimed at keeping the internet free to preserve our liberties and preserve our freedoms Okay, l neil smith would Disagree and we're gonna talk about whatever that disagreement is when we come back, you know Can you have such a thing as intellectual property? They named it that they got a category for it They got you know, it's used in vernacular. I mean we got you know, uh copyright and you know And uh trademark and all of a sudden, you know, we're going to talk about it Stephen cancella on this very issue when we come back on declare your independence with me Ernest Hancock Assistant Hello back Yeah, um, you know one thing steven I'm really I I want to make sure l neil smith's argument is uh presented and pure if I could really understand what it is Okay, and let me back. Let me back. I didn't know we were going to talk about smith and that's fine This is about two. You this is about two or three years ago. So it's not a fresh debate that i'm aware of No, yeah, it is it's really been amping up You know, I've been you know asked to be part of uh mediation and doing all and we were going to do it at the summit And judge butchers going to judge it and it's got you know, I wasn't aware of that Maybe maybe you can explain it, but um, I'll be happy to present his argument But to be honest and fair to him He doesn't have an argument. All he says is it's stealing his argument is that you're stealing the work Well, see it's a good foundation because we're on l ren You know, it's in freeman's network. There is this controversy Amping up again to the point where l neil was calling posh over at silver circle movie Um, you know, he has a relationship with complaining about davi. So this kind of got resurrected and I talked to l neil I wasn't aware. Okay. I wasn't aware. I didn't even know that it was online Well, do you know who john buttrick is? No, I don't he's a federal he was uh libertarian for governor here in the 90s And legislature and went on to become a superior court judge now as a federal magistrate And he's a good friend of ours and he speaks at the freedom summit on a regular basis And uh, his whole thing is you know in the future when we have a volunteer society You're still gonna have conflict resolution. How are you gonna do that? So so this was a perfect example Go into that. Yeah, I've actually written international law books on arbitration and I know a little bit about it So but I'm a libertarian not a federal magistrate. Yeah, I understand The point that I'm bringing this up is one it is kind of fresh But it looks like we're not gonna get it fixed at the summit because l neil's like going look I'm not putting my you know, I believe it's mine. Why am I putting it up for any kind of dispute? I decided, you know Problem over. Okay. I think I don't know what level of extraction you want me to go into I'd be happy to talk about that on any level you'd like No, I already it's steven my show. I get do what I want. Here we go. Okay. Get ready now So the thing is is that at the core of everything that you're going to say This is a legitimate and current and uh, talked about topic right now because you're saying l neil does not have An intellectual property right, you know, okay, that's fine. We don't have to talk about, you know Drag out just this one particular thing, but you can't just say that you got to say why he doesn't And I need you to articulate l neil's best argument of white now that doesn't mean it's legitimate in your mind or it doesn't what I don't care But I need you to you know, because he's not here to defend himself to at least repeat what you think he's understand Then we'll chop it up, but I need him to be represented I can do that. All right. Here we go. I got it Call 1-800-441-6064 That's 1-800-441-6064 What's up next visit the liberty radio network program guide to find out at shows dot l r n dot f m that shows dot l r n dot f m To be a part of the show call 602-264-2800 602-264-2800 and now Ernest Hancock Welcome back to declare your independence of me Ernest Hancock here in Phoenix, Arizona Stephen Concella, I mean talking to all kinds of news and everything in the electoral property But we got to talk about what we know. What does it mean? You know, so here we have I want to get I don't want to dwell on it anymore than we really need to But the thing is is that here we have a good hardcore long time Considered to be on the edge fringe kind of no compromise libertarian that believes He's got a property right and stuff he wrote, you know decades ago. It's mind mind mind mind mind So steven I just need from your perspective. I know you disagree with him and I'm you know I lean more towards the volunteerist kind of whatever. Do you don't want me to know about it? Don't put it in my head. But the thing is is I go the best just have fairness to l neal I need what is it that he is saying that would resonate with any of us or is there anything Articulate his position. He has property right or some kind of ownership of these words that he put up in the way And nobody else can use any of the I mean argue his case for him a little bit trying to help me understand his perspective Oh, absolutely. So he's got two cases The first one would be legal like he could argue he does have a legally recognized property right In his novels, let's say or in his writings under the copyright statute So it is true that there is a copyright law in the u.s. And in most of the world Uh that recognizes a property right in these artistic creations and original works of authorship Okay, so he does have a legal right But that I don't think he would want to rely upon that because he's an anarchist like I am And not every law the state enacts and enforces is compatible with justice Like laws against slavery laws for eminent domain tax laws drug laws, etc So just because there's a law doesn't mean it's legitimate So he does have a legal right. The question is should he have a legal right? Should there be property rights in patterns of information and in writings? And the the argument he's relying on is best I can tell from what he's said and I've read some of his writings on on facebook and on the on the free keen If I recall forums, etc Is the standard argument that you own what you create Which is a lock-in type of argument the labor the idea that you own yourself you own your body Therefore you own what you your labor And therefore you own what you mix that labor with and what you create in the world It's sort of a randian argument the idea that if you create something some nebulous thing that has economic value That you have a property right in it and a poem or a novel or a Paper is a thing of value in the modern economy and therefore you have a property right in it That's the basic argument. It's full of fallacies And it's full of confusions, but I think that's the argument and That type of argument is used by libertarians to justify Regular property rights property rights in land and in the products of your labor like when you sell your labor services And you want to get paid for that you don't want the government to take a cut of that So you you you might fall back on the argument. I own my labor. I own myself. I own my The fruits of my labor so you shouldn't tax that so you can see a sort of common ground in these types of arguments But it's really Based upon some economic and political confusions Okay, now that's a very good, you know Thank you for that and you look at things like we got to go to china to be free I mean, you know, they don't You know, it's copyright. I don't know tell you're talking about, you know, we're not taking anything from you I made a whole bunch of cds here and we're putting them on the street corner and sell and you know get over it Oh, no, you got to have crap. Well, who's making that complaint? Who's the pressure doing that? What's the philosophy that they're doing? So this you can see from my standpoint, this is the argument This is a perfect example. This is it. So you have so so you're saying there isn't a role of government or anybody To have some kind of there's a differentiation between You know, what is created that is tangible that somebody can have and that's one of and they transfer around and so on But an idea that can be represented in what ones and zeros I mean, it can be replicated a bunch of times. It can be a muse A song it can be music. It can be a book. It can be a movie It can be you know at what point because I deal with it on frames phoenix all the time We get away with a lot of stuff because you know, it's news or or uh, free speech or whatever the heck and they And and and the big thing going on with areas. Yeah, you're relying on the fair use exception probably Well, I'm not relying on I don't give a crap. I don't even look I mean, I'm just like, you know, I I I got attorneys go go deal with them I'm going to do whatever that forwards information and if you want to come after me Well, heck that's that's new news that we need to talk about, you know So I'm so I don't really rely on anything other than my sense of you know information and sharing and have But you know, you'll have some libertarian this intellectual property right thing now What makes the difference in your mind that you don't apply property rights to things that you create with your Mind that go out there. We haven't got to that part yet. That's what I wanted to build up to So go ahead and go. How would you distinguish the difference to where those kind of rules don't apply Basically, you have to step back and think why do we even need property rights? Why why does this institution arise? It arises because we live in a world where you and I want to use things To get things done right our bodies and other things you want to drink milk You want to have a piece of land you want to have a house you want to have Weapons you want to have fishing equipment Whatever these things by their nature or what's called scarce or rivalrous resources There are things that can only be used by one person at a time So either you have a system of rules that say who can use these things or you don't if you don't Then we we're having like a battle of everyone against everyone a war of all against all Most of us prefer peace. We prefer society We prefer cooperation and we have a dim recognition that If we have a system of rules that say listen, let's have an orderly way of assigning rights to use these things Because only one person can use these resources at a time So we come up with these property rights Because it helps make for a prosperous orderly civilized cooperative society Um And we pretty much all agree on the common sense rules whoever gets the thing first gets to use it Or if you sell it to someone else then they're the they're the new owner It's pretty common sense. But the fundamental issue is When we identify such a scarce resource the kind of thing that there can be a conflict over Then we have to have a property rule that says who gets to own it and that's why we have disputes That's why we have conflict It's always over a given resource and the libertarian answer and the common sense answer has always been The first user or the person that buys it or gets it by contract or inheritance from a previous owner Is the rightful owner the problem with making ideas of A property right giving a property right and ideas is that you're you really cannot control an idea You can't control information Really, it's a disguised way of getting control over people's property rights So for example, if you have a copyright in a novel That means that you can use the government courts or the legal system to Tell someone that they can't use their own property in a certain way Right, or if you have a patent on an invention You can tell them you can't use your own property in a certain way So the fundamental mistake behind this notion is the idea that creation Is a source of property rights. It's really not creation Is a source of wealth what creation means what production means is you own resources already Like I own some raw materials And I use my labor my creativity to fashion them into something more valuable So I make it more valuable, but I have to own it already creation is not an independent source of ownership All right We're starting to get into the nitty gritty and I got a great example another one when we come back Unintended consequences the book. Oh, you can get it in the mobi file You can get it on kendo. You can get pdf and everything on freemes phoenix in today's show Oh, I'm breaking some law. I just know it Did you know that free aid is a mutual aid educational and networking organization? Okay, good example is you're familiar with the book unintended consequences or whatever john ross's thing. Is that ring of bell? Say yeah unintended consequences. You ever heard of that book? It was it was written in 94 is really big on in the gun community. It was uh, you know Just batf would go to the gun retailers at the shows and you know, you sure you want to carry it was a big controversy Well, it's going to be reprinted again copies are going if you look it up You can get you know from 190 to 400 dollars a hardback copy. I mean it is a very popular book What happened is we were talking about it and somebody sent me All these different files from the internet You had the kendo file the amazon file the this file the pdf file that we put it up on freemes phoenix And just said you know here everybody's screaming about you can't get it and nobody has it and you got whatever And we put it up so they just download it and read it and done and it's one of the most popular downloads on my entire site Is downloading that book So what laws am I breaking? Probably a bunch don't care, you know, I mean, you know, but see that's how I'm like, yeah, you know come come get me I mean, I don't give crap, but the thing is is that you know This is I am under threat from whom for what and who would you know prosecute that You know, I mean how and then under what guys I went, you know It almost you want him to do it just to give you know some Notoriety to freemes phoenix and the book. I mean, you know, I I don't care john ross when he But He and I go back way back. We did a thing called safe. We still have it second amendment is for everyone and safe Safe gun owners org and common a lot crap. So what happened was he wanted to have a blurb on it Well, I was a young activist. I didn't know what the hell he wanted. He goes. How come you didn't write it? I go Oh, you want me to support it that way? Hell. I thought you we bought three cases of the book I didn't know what the hell you wanted, you know, don't say I didn't support you I bought three cases of the book, you know, so so it's um, I just didn't understand But the thing is is that these guys they really have an ownership and it's mine. Mine freaking mine I'm I know I ran all other stuff went out the window when it came down to it was mine Okay, so the intellectual property I would see that they would look at this as I'm A compliment as real libertarians. They're like, yes, my whole point was to get these ideas out my whole point Oh, I made some money. Okay. That's cool. Well, go where yogurt says the real money is I mean, you know, it's kind of so I I I'm really trying that is the line all this other stuff we talk about blah blah blah blah blah Is it can you copyright or should the government be there to protect ideas? And what is and what I want to talk about now and we I'll bring up the unintended consequences thing real quick But when we get back into you I really want to get is how much this line of thought stifles innovation You know and in in patents and in uh innovations and energy and so like they go to uh, elan musk and they go Yeah, you're building all this great, you know rocket engines new technology and everything how come But you're not even using the patent. They goes. Why I'm the customer You know, I mean who else is going to be buying my crap, you know, I'm the guy doing it And why the hell would I give, you know Details to my competitors and my competitors are governments and I'm asking for permission to protect my idea screw that I mean, that's just a practical Example of the intellectual property does not work at the highest level, you know So I'm going all right spacex makes all their own stuff. They you know, yeah Who else is going to buy it? You want to copy it? I can sell fat if you you want to buy one of my engines go right ahead It costs this much So this is why I want to get you know into the stifling of innovation and so on because of intellectual property rights That's what I'm building up to Yeah, got it. No problem if you enjoy lrn.fm Please contribute to your favorite shows via their websites and become an amplifier at amp dot lrn.fm. That's amp dot lrn.fm There are those that just want to be left alone And those that just won't leave them alone Which one are you the earnest Hancock show? Oh, baby. Oh, we got Stephen cancella on the line. Oh, this is you know, I tell you let me tell you the story What's going on? We have On freedoms phoenix. We were talking about it and one of our listeners out of houston I think it was had a bunch of files, you know, you can read it on kendo You can do it on your amazon look whatever thing you have pdf You can do it on the computer or on your uh easy reader on your tablet or whatever Unintended consequences now a lot of you guys made out remember It's like 20 years ago when it was came out right after waco and all this kind of stuff It's all how the gun Issue was used by the man for control and so on it was a fascinating novel very popular batf There's going to gun shows and any retailer that has it and they're going are you sure you want to be selling this kind of Big controversy tried to go after him's long story, but I think it is excellent idea. It's going to be reprinted. They're going back in the print with it And that was another fight And i'm going you know, we have the opportunity to put this up for everybody I know it's very popular because you go online you want to buy that book is minimum like 200 for a hardbound book They go 300 400 nice crisp good hardbound copies 300 bucks This 300 dollar version a friend of mine got for another friend a young man that wanted he never could He bought it for 300 dollars here. He had some money gave it to him You know because he thought it's a cool thing to do and i'm going wow So me putting that up, you know, uh, I'm sure I violated something or somebody can say I did I think they should come after me Let's talk about it. So this is a good example But it's more than that patents on energy devices and mr. Tesla does this and Einstein did that and so and so came and changed and Put another screw in and did and kind of different drawn perspective Of the orientation of the CAD file of the whatever and we're going to repat and everything and nothing gets done Elon musk is building brand new kind of man. We haven't had new rocket technology for 40 50 years He goes I do this myself gets his tony stark 3d You and kind of making 3d printing of titanium with lasers 3d printing rocket nozzles And this is where we're going and he goes we can go straight to manufacturing from my head into the CAD Into a 3d printed onto the rocket done and am I going to patent that? Why would I because they went on a ted talk they're on how come you're not patting this you don't patent Why aren't you patting and he goes? Why would I patent? He goes I'm going to go up there and use the very people that who's my competition the government I'm buying my own stuff. Why don't we patent something I can just make and I buy if I put it out there? And I get all the detailed drawings. They'll just rip it off, you know, whatever competitive advantage I have And that's assuming they would even give me the patent. Why am I asking them screw them? I'm done with this patent thing. I'm like right on So let's talk to Stephen about that The innovation that is canceled out the the problems that we have because Of this idea of intellectual property. How much is humanity suppressed because of it Stephen? Well, it's hard to figure out the numbers. I've done estimates myself. Most people are trying to find justifications for IP patent law copyright law and so they they do these empirical studies And they all come out inconclusive or they conclude that there's something wrong here Um, my best estimate is that like in the united states alone under the patent system alone forget copyrights We're probably imposing One two three four hundred five hundred billion dollars a year of net loss on the economy maybe more Because of this copyright is less of an economic thing more of a freedom thing, right? So in a way, I think copyright is the worst damage patents the patent system I look at it as a 500 billion dollar a year tax taxes are bad, but they just slow growth down Okay, the copyright system is used to justify extra dotting people from other countries invading You know kim.com's home in new zealand Of ratcheting up cyber law protection and the control over the internet Which is a fundamental tool for freedom So the damage done by copyright is almost immeasurable because it's it's a it's a restriction on our freedoms What we need to understand is that copyright and patent law originated copyright originated with the literal Control of thought and the press by the government Which culminated in the statute of ann of 1709 This was an attempt to form a guild system where the government and the church could stop the printing of books Uh that they didn't want printed Right. It was an attempt to censor ideas And that's what it's being used for now Authors still because of the copyright system basically sell their souls to the publishing industry I mean just look up type in harlequin, you know these harlequin romances These there's a there's a class action lawsuit going on right now because these harlequin romance authors can't put on amazon The ebooks of their back catalog which could make them Tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars Because of copyrights they entered into with the publishing industry Which took the you know stepped into the place of the state and the guild system in the aftermath of the statute of ann patents In the attempt to monopolize and mercantilize industry that is the government would grant monopolies To stop competition. They would say you're the only guy that can sell Sheepskin or playing cards in a given region And we will sell this right to you if you will give us allegiance or taxes or collect taxes or whatever So it was in in fact the first You know the modern copyright statute originated in the statute of monopolies 16 23 in england And that's what it has resulted in you have samsung and apple and google All battling each other on the smartphone wars for example using their patents And what they do is they stop competition from the small players because they can't afford To spend two three four five twenty million dollars on lawyers And to acquire patents So the patent system helped stop competition today just like it was originally planned to do The thing is when these when these rights originated they were not confused with natural rights or property rights Everyone knew they were exceptions. They were Government granted intrusions on freedom and the free market And that's how they thought of them and that's how they thought of it Yes, but so then when when economists free market advocates started opposing these intrusions these privileges these monopoly grants of the of the government these censorship the censorship mechanisms They started calling them intellectual property rights as a way to Propagandize the populace and the legislators and say, oh, it's just a type of property right Because you can sell it obviously hell you can sell you can sell political favors. Does that mean it's a property right? You know, does it mean that lobbying the government should be a property right? It's ridiculous People think of their social security grants as property rights That doesn't mean that we are in favor of social security So we have to not let the government label Confuse us which it has done a lot of libertarians Uh like smith You know, my thing is is that uh, you know The best way for me is if you don't want me To have it as part of my mind and part of how I act and part of what I do and part of what I create and part of what I say Well, then don't tell me I mean, you know, once it becomes I'm not going to build firewalls in my mind. That's what starts all this cognitive dissidents That's where you start getting into confusion That's where you start, you know, you're you're sitting there thinking about how you're Able to think and what you're willing or able to think about and include and all that and humanity does not march on that way So I'm going no, that's why I'm I'm so supportive of just, you know, it's my mind wherever it goes Accumulated whatever I got from whatever and I'm going to do whatever I want with it without these Hurdles and roadblocks that I put in my head. So what do you advocate? We're coming up on the the break here But I want you to think about this during the break In in comment, hopefully we can get steven to talk about the power of his position If he has his position Uh is accepted by generation next as we go on they start because it's only now that this is even being able to be out There to be discussed and incorporated in how we live and how we think about stuff How much will things change? How how far can humanity go? How quickly will we evolve and we have we has this been a lid on our evolution? Has it been a restraint? Is it a chain on our brain? Oh, that's a good one. I'm gonna do that. Ah copyright Or to tan cut chain on our brain, you know, it's all mine. Mine. Mine. You know that don't think about chain on brain Chain on brain. You can't say it. Don't think about it. Don't use chain on brain. It's all mine. Mine. Mine. Mine. Mine. Mine. Mine. Mine When it comes to investing in precious metals, you know mine mine mine mine mine. Okay, so Yeah, that's one thing that's funny. You have steven cober will come up with something like that He goes that copyright fox is mine mine mine mine mine mine and there is a mechanism, you know for that very thing Is there not Can I sit there and say go trademark copyright? I say so that's mine You know, I mean that what what's the mechanism for something like that? Um For like a slogan you mean. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's kind of that's trademark. That's more trademark. But can you just claim it? I mean do I got to go file a piece of paper? I remember um, it was uh, los angeles lakers and uh, the coach I can't remember his name. He he trademarked the phrase three Pete I don't know if you remember that, you know, he goes three Pete, you know, they're going for the third Bast NBA championship or something. Yeah, that's that's a trademark So he actually did Yeah, if you and well, I'm Be careful where you're going. I'm starting to lose you a little bit. Can you hear me now? I can hear you but the video's not really going I think it'll be straight in a second. Um Yeah, no, that's a trademark issue. That's another type of acting which we haven't talked about too much But yeah, that's definitely a trademark And you established that by use can you hear me? Yeah, go ahead and bring the camera down a little bit. I got top of your head There you go. Yeah, you established trademark by use Okay, but you can file a federal mark by registration. So it's like copyright. It's like patent to it to a to a degree Um, look, I'm I'm totally about the trademark as well and I can go into that too, but that's getting into the weeds Um, well, I mean, yeah, I don't want to spend a lot of time on that now But I my thing is is that you know, innovate humanity marches on Unless there's somebody got chains around your brain and I'm going all right. Where are the chains? That's why I'm supportive of what you know You're having to say and do and your work and such because I could see for the first time in certainly my activist lifetime And so on there's someone, you know as passionately arguing for the elimination of intellectual property As people are arguing for property and and and intellectually being able to back it up And I'm going, you know, I'm glad that this is being done because I can see the stifling of it I mean in every aspect. I mean, you know what I'm doing. I do Newspaper and magazine and online and the radio and I got I got, you know, IP You know delusion me from every angle. So I'm just going look. I need to have some philosophical basis Yeah, can you hear me? Yeah, keep You were fading for a second. Go ahead. Well, yeah, when you moved it changed a bunch of stuff here It's catching up on the video. All right. So my thing is okay I'm sorry My signal is stronger. I'm not sure. Are you sure yours is okay at your end? When you started walking around the signal got dropped a little bit and the video would not enough bandwidth Wherever it was. So anyway, it's catching up. I think it's okay now. Sorry. Okay. So the the thing is is that I'm looking into the future We're all about generation next and as we train and we Discuss these issues instead of it being, you know The week of copyright and junior high and they talk about how and what and you can and can't and plagiarize and don't Copy in the internet and you use too much of a paragraph kind of crap. You know, I'm going You know, there has to be a fundamental foundational understanding of what IP is What the role of government is what it shouldn't be what we need to do to free our Minds, you know for generation for this 10 to 12 year olds that are out there Just now starting to be indoctrinated with this stuff. What is the replacement indoctrination? What is the replacement information then the last segment here? That's what I want to get to. Okay Absolutely. All right. Here we go in dot com. That's free keen dot com You can watch the lrn studio cam and chat with other listeners anytime at cam dot lrn dot fm That's cam dot lrn dot fm And now live from the studios of freedoms phoenix earnest Hancock Welcome back to declare your independence of beer to stand out here in Phoenix, Arizona. Hi, hello Even cancella intellectual property. This is a much more important issue than I think people realize This is because what are we always about generation next and what do we got with generation next? We need to you know get their their mind Freed we need them to understand all the ramifications of their decisions and how they interact with each other under what Philosophy and you know, of course, they're going to be you know property property property I'm a freedom guy for property and then they got intellectual property. Is that a property? Why isn't it not now let's talk to the 10 12 year old child that's going into junior high And they're going to give them a dose of gimmick because in junior high when they're starting to go through puberty When they're just starting to question challenge the man, what are they doing? You got to have the most hours in school required sitting in the chair getting their indoctrination in seventh and eighth grade You have them doing government and you have them doing social studies and you have them doing I'm just a bill and you have them that garen freaking tea trademark copyright intellectual property all that starts going and this is how it is according to the mandatory youth camp indoctrination leader Okay, and you're going and that's not so what do you tell this person going into puberty? And they're looking to challenge the man and I getting what their mind is free How what is the base philosophy that you want these kids going in asking these very questions of what they can do They're starting to be creative in art. They're starting to be creative in writing They're starting to be creative in youtube's all of a sudden they get a takedown notice from youtube So I'm sorry. Yeah, that's why we're not on youtube We put on vimeo and we do others and we have it on our own service video Because I use classic rock as a rejoiner youtube because hey you can't okay, then I'll use youtube anymore bite me You know, I'm just I'm not playing where else can I go? We set up our own servers and get down to the point We'll just use our own servers to archive So I'm just going on which we do on the audio. So I'm just like, you know This is exactly what I want to talk about generation next even what should they know Well, I think first they should This is a good lesson do not trust the constitution and all these official documents If someone says well, it's in the constitution As a justification or something don't trust it I mean, so what so what if it's in the constitution? We as libertarians and freedom advocates have to stop worshiping America the american founding the founders the constitution even the declaration These documents are not perfect. They support slavery. They support taxes. They support a central bank. They support war There's a lot of flaws in them. They're centralizing documents. So just because patent and copyright are Established by thomas jefferson madison and his cronies at the time of the founding doesn't mean that they're justified so stop putting your trust in You know, these these white male racist slave owners at our founding hypocritical politicians who profited greatly from the centralizing power Communalization, which was the american revolution the american war for independence and the constitution so I would have a healthy distrust of all this crap if I was a Of a young independent minded person who is a modern anti-racist cosmopolitan person in favor of individuals and free will so that's the first thing the second thing is Freedom is a double-edged sword, right? So I would say if you want to Get your works out there if you want to get people to know who you are If you want to spread your message if you want people to read your books If you want people to use your artwork if you want people to Buy your product, which has an inventive idea in it Then the the you know the risk you take is that people might learn from it. They might compete with you So there's a double-edged sword I would say throw yourself out there be willing to be publicized try to make a name for yourself Try to do something that matters But don't be afraid of the fact that you might be competed with don't be afraid of being emulated Don't be afraid of being copied or having an influence on people. That's what you want to happen You don't want to be a ripple in the palm of the disc That disappears you want to be a Change in the you know a force for change in our society That's a good At a fundamental level I got a a you know a 12 year old and they'll sit there and they'll go Yep, and the intellectual armor that I use for me adding on to the patent of general electric did the whatever Thing, you know, I'm going to go ahead and I give you a good example. There's a thing they call it the Fabernacci Sequence or so it's how you know branches on trees grow and this one 12 13 year old kid goes You know instead of moving solar panels all the time Why don't you just make them smaller and put them on like leaves following the sequence Because trees have figured it out that they get the most sun if they blah blah blah blah So he's like and then I don't have to move it all the time and I get you know a higher percentage of the yada yada So he goes oh and then somebody's like oh Hey, man, you can't do that. I gotta do and I'm going wow at least the kid just did it And then you start going into all these other problems So I'm looking at these young very creative innovative People that if they can get them into the first thing that goes in their mind is not how I can do it better it's to whom I gotta Submit my application for permission to think about it and I go that is the damage So I want it like you're saying it doesn't matter what these pieces It doesn't don't be bound by this, you know chain on your brain from the beginning You know innovate go take it. It's your yet permission from Stephen Concella. He says but What are the ramifications on the other side? Yeah, well the system exists. Okay, so they have to take into account The impact of these laws is unfortunate and which is one reason libertarians should not be insupportive of these things But the example you gave is a great example This kid who comes up with a new way to aim little photovoltaic receptors He learned it from Fibonacci right the Fibonacci sequence So this is an example of how all learning is incremental But he should just be caring about getting a result done He doesn't need a monopoly from government to protect him from competition He's going to move on and do something else after this All right, he's going to make a profit. He'll be the first mover. He'll have a reputation. He'll have fame You know, he's going to build his skills. He'll develop networks. He'll make money And then what about the next one? What about the argument let you rest on your laurels Why would someone want to do that? No, I I agree and some people they you know, they're claimed to fame as a book They wrote 30 years ago. I mean, you know, I'm going seriously. This is all you got, you know So I'm I and I don't want to protect it. I don't want anybody So I'm I'm going and and I'll not talk about El Neal and there's some other people come to mind But the um what happens is um, I'm wondering what is stifled and if you how much humanity is damaged by this And I'm I'm and your advocacy for what you're doing I'm hoping that it has an impact and an encouragement to people But you have the other side that is always going to yeah, but we got the guns and if you breed them out if you train them out if you you'll be part of a culture that no longer accepts this That's the only way you're going to be able to combat it So let me let me put it this way the the internet views censorship as damage and routes around around it Okay, and similarly, I believe that the free market views controls of information and controls of competition Which is what copyright and patent law do as damage and routes around it and how are we seeing this? Well with information with copyright with censorship We are seeing the rise of torrenting and encryption systems, right? So basically people are circumventing the damage of copyright law now. How are we seeing this in the patent world? With 3d printing for example 3d printing is emerging and rising and these cornucopia machines these christmas machines whatever you want to call them could be emerging in full force in You know 10 20 30 years and radically transform him as a side. Oh hell next year. I you know This is right now. I mean, that's all what deaf cad and white Well, Cody Wilson is one of the speakers that are summit this february and the reason is and we have uh, charles packs from You know maker bot fame, you know is going to be there demonstrating some stuff And and the whole point that he was making he's going look It's over you can print the gun was just an example. I mean it's anything It's a little widget knob. I got an louver on my dashboard of my car broke kind of 70 dollar kind I printed it for seven cents. I mean, you know, this is and and they're gonna freak I mean there's no way man in fact They are using 3d printing and things like this are going to be used to and also the silk road and amazon and international commerce They are used to circumvent and to Basically evade patent law just like people evade income taxes By quick silver capital and by other techniques Um, I think this is a good thing. This shows the market can help us outrun the nefarious You know effects of state interventionism and attempts to control what we're doing and this shows that the advocates of patent copyright Among libertarians are on the wrong side of things and they need to get with the Side of the future the side of progress. Okay. Now what we're going to go ahead and do is do some bonus I got eight minutes before the uh, you know at the top of the hour we get to Nobel peace prizes and stuff But I want to go ahead and have a little bit more conversation without, you know, threat of break With steven console We'll just go a couple more minutes here. I'll let the video go We're gonna let the audio go because there's some other stuff I really see this, you know, uh, steven I think about what you've done and you know for the movement and a lot of your Advocacy and so on a lot more than you think because it comes up A lot and I can see the stifling of innovative, you know, it's like that that phrase, you know I'm uh, I'm looking to turn myself in and I just don't know it's a humor for what You know, well, that's the mindset that they're putting generation next in we're trying to free them Defending our comedies. We'll be right back The shire free church. Okay now what I want to do is we'll go ahead and just let the Video go and so on I want to give you an opportunity not in the thread of you know, whatever We can go another few minutes is that this is there's a project. We got defending Archimedes long story You can look it up presented defending Archimedes Ernest Hancock and you'll see a presentation I did a power point at uh, Libertopia, but the point is this I can see that there is a concentrated effort by they them those to go after Chronicle get it all kind of do my luminosity Brain training con Academy tracking do and find out where all the smart guys are and we're going to put you in service of And you're either service of the state or you're not in service anybody else kind of thing And I can see that the intelligence that is out there It's just and because I say these kinds of things it just you know Just swarms to me a lot of these young people that are of this mind And they are you know, we're not even waiting on you know the bit tour kind That's why we're so supportive of spaceship one and all our space stuff because we knew what it meant It meant private uh industry just put our own freaking satellite up and bite me and we bypassed our own the more they You know control the tighter their fist the more star systems between the fingers kind of thing So I can see where this is going What role are you playing in or have you gotten feedback from the young? I mean the young I'm talking like they're just getting teenagers. They're the young you know before you had to fix them I'm tired of trying to fix everybody like we did with the revolution. You're fixing them at 17 or something What if you get them at 10 and you don't need to fix them? So we're working on that What is it that you laser beam what you're having to say to them? Go ahead go Now are we on now? Yeah. No, I I did this I'm telling you Stephen I think about what you're doing way more than you think You know, this comes up a lot. You know, I'm going I I think there's an attitude change I mean my generation the generation before me maybe even the one right after me We tend to see in a little intellectually at first these arguments for IP for openness Okay, but morally like I remember 15 years ago. I was like intellectually I see why these patent and copyright laws are bad, but I've got to find another alternative free market way that we can Um Dissuade people from copying things like privately almost like charity, right? So as libertarians, we believe that there should be no welfare laws, but we think people should give the charity But over time I've overcome even that and I think the young generation doesn't have that hang up at all They're used to file sharing. They're used to competition. They're used to Dynamically things, you know things happening dynamically changing on the internet very fast Um new business models rising and falling So they're not surprised at all. They don't see anything morally wrong with remixing, right or copying. That's part of what they do So I think they don't even have the initial moral hang-ups that we might have Okay, now that's where the the battle is I can see it, you know It's like you'll watch a movie and they'll have a little PSA public service announcement Now you wouldn't you'll steal this and you wouldn't copyright that and you wouldn't take your bad evil person If you know an evil and evil and junior high and it was added an mpaa included as part of the curriculum evil Okay, so I can see where this is going So they they they try and make it to where they're questioning But what has not happened and the only thing that I see what you have been the first one that on the radar screen I've seen has happened is given an intellectual argument that it's okay That there is some kind of overwriting principle that it's you know It's brain cells configured because I read now it's mine. It's in my brain. It's mine mine Kiss my ass. I do what I want mine and that was never done before that was never the ammunition The the criticism we get from people like Mr. Smith who again, I'm a great admirer of he's a great libertarian. We're good friends. I don't have anything bad to say about O'Neill No, but so the criticism you get from people like him when they're trying to come up Cobbled together an argument to defend Something like copyright. They won't they don't want to defend in copyright because they know it's human creation But they don't want to they don't want to oppose it either They they're not it's not really clear what they're in favor of But they'll they'll come up with these terms like where you're a communist your favor of stealing and I think And what they imagine is this group of pirates all these people that are just these kind of lay about loser Student types who just want things for free. They don't want to pay for anything So they imagine that the pirates the guys that copy things on on pirate bay and bit torrents They imagine they're just lazy and they just don't respect property rights and want things for free What I want to say is listen You have a good reason to add steven can sell an actual property rights to the list Yeah, so what I want to say is don't feel guilty about learning and using information that you've got Legitimately on the free market if people put out there feel free to build on it feel free to learn from it If someone puts out a movie or a song there's nothing wrong with copying it But listening to it with building on it with doing your own version nothing wrong That's my point once that because they do it anyway, they don't care. They're like, yeah, yeah, it's easier. It's cheaper I don't have the money. I got it and done but they didn't have the intellectual ammunition Behind that so that they didn't feel any kind of concern or guilt or fear You know once they are armed with the intellectual argument It's all freaking over as if you could stop them anyway But now there are you know, they're armed with you know the idea that supports what they're doing That's the power that's it's all these mental hurdles and roadblocks and brain chains that they're putting on us You know it's a brain chain. I like that one you you're allowed to use it. You're the first okay, so the one thing that I wanted to tell you before I got to go is um We're producing we used to do newspapers, you know, we do hundreds of thousands of newspapers You know of the 90s and early 2000s so on our last one was an 04 and we're creating another 32 page broad sheet 4 section kick ass There were you know be distributed to 10 000 deferred blah blah blah very controversial issues on there I need this argument an intellectual property kind of you know to this jet Do you have something that we can you know steal? Liberate borrow take publish that would be to this end Do I have something you can steal that you mean like an argument or Yeah, no an article we're going to put a newspaper 10 000 pages You know issues going out with you know, but it's going to be in the company of things like When do you shoot a cop by larkin rose legalized methamphetamine by mark victor? I'm sorry, but paul rozenberg, you know on the next generation So I'm you know intellectual property should it be included hell. Yeah, because it's going to that market Do you have something I just go rip it off I think I can I can point you to a few things. I can email you Actually, jeff tucker and I jeff tucker is sort of my My partner in crime on this issue and he and I are working