 Good evening and thank you for joining us tonight on Y254 News and tonight we talk about postpartum depression. We try to see what is the cause, what do we do to make sure that when mothers give birth they don't have to go through postpartum depression. How do we also bring fathers because apparently postpartum depression affects at least one in 10 men. We also try to see how do partners support their wives during this process and to help us talk about this topic tonight, we have Juradine Muirori who is the founder of Mami's Touch and she is also a social economist. We have Mary Joong who is a patron of Warsaw that is a women student welfare association. You can be part of our conversation tonight by sharing your views and comments on our social media platforms. That is on Y254 channel, hashtag Y254 News. You can also reach me at Patricia Muriuki. Thank you guys for finding the time to come and join us tonight. And as I was doing my research you find out that at least we have got to a point whereby people get to talk about postpartum depression. People don't because we have mothers who at some point they have had their children taken away from them because they are not at a good position to really take care of them at that particular moment. But as we start I would like you Juradine to give a definition to someone who is watching us tonight and they have no idea it's their first time that they are hearing about postpartum depression. Basically it's depression but this happens weeks after delivery. This is when after the mother gives birth then it's beyond the baby blues. After the first few weeks, first four weeks you find the mother is aware you feel about the child but when it goes beyond the baby blues, the normal baby blues, some people feel like they really need to take care of this baby or they don't understand and some or others start experiencing some kind of fear. They are afraid that their child baby will be harmed by other people, they don't want it to be held by someone. They feel like the only way to keep this child safe is killing them or that's one way or the other way would be the mother feels like they are not parent enough, they are not good for this child or they don't understand what is happening and they do not want at all to be associated with the kid then you realize something is wrong, something is not right. So postpartum depression happens, it's the mental illness for mums after delivery which can be caused by different things. We're going to get to the causes of that but Tamiri you're a mum, did you experience postpartum depression? Partisha I did and if I have to speak about the depression it can be a lot of factors. First I am a student at the university when I was expecting, my academic is ahead of me, here is a child, I'm a single mum. So you can imagine I'm thinking about how this child is going to survive at the same time I have to chase my ambition as a young woman in the academia field. So I have this aspect I have to leave this child behind under the care of my sister to go and proceed with my studies. When I'm leaving this child I should be breastfeeding her that comes with the pain of holding the breast back. I was through medication but deep down it was so painful seeing my child going to stay behind while I'm moving forward again the responsibilities. I don't blame most girls who sometimes they go for giving away their children because the responsibility that comes with motherhood is kind of God given. If you're not strong enough you can't overcome it. So Juradine we've had Mary's experience, what was your experience? First of all did you go through postpartum depression? Yes I did, I wasn't a student though but I was at that stage where I haven't figured out who I am, what career path I'm taking on. Basically like I hadn't planned on getting pregnant and so you know people ask so now in this day and age how do you even get pregnant? This was the morning after pill this all since fell you know they are not like 70% so there's a whole 30% or 40% chance. I was going through motions, I had not even discovered who I am as a person, what's my path. I think I was going you know they say 25 to 30 is that period you still discovered who you are and now here is a baby. Financially I can't even sustain myself and then there's someone you need to take care of. So for me it was a period where previously I had gone through depression so now this coupled up with an unplanned pregnancy it was depressing. Okay so we know everything has a cause, everything has a trigger. We expect that when you get your baby, a baby is supposed to be a bundle of joy that is what we all expect. We expect you don't want to leave that cute little baby and you want to be with them every other minute. But now what exactly do you think causes for you for example what do you think triggered you to get to the point where you suffered postpartum depression? So basically there are different things that cause postpartum depression now that I have learned more about it and gone through therapy. I know sometimes it's hormono it's the hormones that cause the postpartum depression but also if you have had previous episodes of depression that can cause you to have postpartum depression. But also studies for example by WHO have shown that poverty is a factor. It plays a key role in maternal mental health because poverty in this case people think poverty as being no food no nothing but poverty is financially stable. You do not know what next. So basically you don't know where your medical bills are going to come from, you don't know what this child is going to feed on, what are you going to close them with. All those things coupled up, will you provide rent, maybe you need help. So there are diapers, there are other things for me so it was that previous depression state now coupled up with all this question of sudden change that I had not really thought about or planned for. So all of it coupled up made me stressed out and then also for me I had a very hard time during delivery. So my labour took too long almost two days and I was tired, I was exhausted and pain caught. So it was a stressful moment, it was a traumatic period for me to labour for so long, get induced and then end up in the theatre. So at the end of the day I ended up more depressed than I had even thought about. Every story is different and every person's experience with postpartum depression even when you get to hear of people's stories it's very different. So Mary for you what did you struggle with during that time? What was that thing that really put you in that situation that you really found hard to deal with, you really found really hard to get to hear from it? Okay first I didn't get enough support from family except my sister. So accepting the fact that you are in this alone and the only person holding your hand is my sister. And again I look at this child she's so innocent and I'm going to leave her. And you see I left my baby when she was two weeks old. So detaching from a two weeks old baby whom we were breastfeeding was the toughest thing for me. But it had to happen because I have to chase my academics. If I had to defer my studies to breastfeed this child then it meant no future for us. And again I'm leaving this child and I'm carrying myself with responsibility. I have to put her on one and I'm just a past year student. So that meant I'm going to look for a job I don't know where. My help loan was only 15,000 shillings. So immediately I come to campus, I take all the money sent to my sister to put my daughter on milk. Now I'm left with nothing to eat. I detached from my friends because I looked horrible. Everything was in a mess. I'm out looking for a job. I worked as a sales agent for PASIS insurance. Looking at myself even if you were a client and this person comes to you, she's so young. She looks so desperate and she wants you to ensure with her you won't even trust her. So I never got any business. And they kept on pushing on with or without food and here are classes. So it was a mix of activities and situations for me. But I accepted it. Then I realized I lost almost all my friends. I was left with one friend that I could share and tell you see I left her baby at home. So as we are talking can't concentrate in class because she needs milk. I haven't sent any money so far. So I concentrate completely in class. And if you check my grades, my transcript, my grades for that specific time is not as I started in the first semester before I got to deliver my child. Akademically I dropped. I picked up in third year after. I'm fixing everything now. And I'm accepting and moving forward. And I'm able even to provide consistently for this child. Okay. So these are very difficult moments for mothers. Especially when we're talking about single mothers we don't have the father to be a support system. But we've had cases whereby postpartum depression gets to affect men. It's called paving paternal depression or something. But Juradine, what do you think we can do to make sure that we prepare mothers? That we don't only get excited till the baby shower and then a mother does not know what it is that they're supposed to expect. This is going to affect your sleeping patterns because at times the child is going to be awake. Your body is going to change in certain ways. Maybe you're not going to be comfortable with that. Probably you're not going to be as out as you wanted because this baby needs you. So how do you think we could prepare mothers to make sure that we don't have high numbers of mothers going through postpartum depression? Basically I think the best thing is to talk about it. To avail information and to hold sessions for mothers. These peer to peer support where mothers are aware, are made aware of what to expect and expecting. It becomes very hard sometimes in hospitals because you find, I can tell you, for me I started with a public hospital the first time I went for my clinic and the cues are too long that there's no time to start telling the mother this is what you expect, this is supposed to happen, if you see this and this, there is a problem. So for me what I would say is to avail this information to continue with advocacy and having conversations around mental health issues during and after pregnancy and also in hospitals we can make this possible if we had. I've seen hospitals have support system for people living with HIV. They have a day, they meet up, they form support groups. I think it makes work easier as much as public hospitals are crowded because everyone is going there. In over another hospital sometimes it's too busy and people are giving birth every nine months. So I think it would be good if people would be put in groups, like they would form support groups and then even if we have limited medics you see they formed some thing that they do for people living with HIV. If they would form groups of mothers, we would form groups of mothers where this information can be shared and the mothers can be having their support groups say every week or every month when they are coming for their clinic then they can also meet and the information be shared, be told this is what to expect. If you see this science then no, you're about to go to depressions, seek help, the same way we have when you give birth every month you go for your child to be checked, you get a weight, you get a health immunization and then if for example you found that your child is malnourished you send to a nutritionist to be informed. It could be the same thing, when you are in this support group and you discover you are going through depression then you can have your group with a therapist in the hospital because they are there. Okay, so we cannot take men out of this because they are also part of it. How do we make sure that we get support? We are trying to make sure that the father of the child also needs to understand that this mother needs your support in certain ways because the men are not going to wake up when the baby cries so it's just the mother's load to make sure that they wake up, they feed and all that. So Mary how do you think for men watching us tonight that they can also play a part in making sure that we get to create awareness on postpartum depression and we also try to create an end to it making sure that mothers can nurse their babies peacefully without having to struggle with anything. Patricia you know, pregnancy is not a women only affair. It is both parties involved and for those who are married and have partners who are supportive or are involved rather than single man it is important if they start having this conversation even when the woman is expecting. And I applaud all men who stand with their women in the labour world because it's really a tough moment that most women are likely to go into postpartum depression. So if men can stand with these women and make it feel normal the delivery process let them adopt their children and be with them all the time. In fact the government should introduce a leave for men when a wife is pregnant and it's almost giving birth other countries have done that. Let's have it in Kenya so that men can support these women in their time when they need them the most because without support it's really really tough for women and it's their responsibility actually as a man that is your child as well. Don't leave the burden to the woman alone. The way you love yourself is the way you love your child and you love the mother. Let them put themselves in the shoes of these women and carry the burden and watch over women. We've seen it happen not only in movies in other countries men are taking care of their children. Assume this woman dies on delivery will you leave your child to suffer because you are not the mother because you can't breastfeed so it's the responsibility of men to wake up support women and take care of their children I follow you on social media so I see what you get to do with mommy's touch you try to make sure that you're creating like the mothers have a livelihood you try to make sure that whatever products these mothers are bringing out of a market you sell them and all that is there anything that you've tried on postpartum depression and how has mommy's touch played a part to make sure that with the mothers in the group you can address postpartum depression So basically what we're working on currently is making sure through collective action collective action is bringing the mothers together and so that then they can have the peer to peer type of counseling and also talking about it and being there for each other because when you're going through depression the support system is very important and maybe just to add something she said is also the fathers can go for the clinic with the mothers they will also get to get this information and even them it's also an experience for them to they are also experiencing parenthood and all these changes also with another kuhuman being over there so they also get to learn and if they are also going through depression they will use their therapist in the hospitals to work with them so what you're doing for us is at mommy's touch is to bring the collective action to bring about to enable the future this is through for example for us we've studied and seen that poverty is a key factor when it comes to mental health and so collective action bringing these mothers together we just don't bring them together to see it about so we found activities that are social economically empowering them boosting their livelihood and income generating activity so that then they can be able because research has shown that especially in Kenya and the rural women the course of maternal and infant death mortality going so high is because of one malnutrition and two poor uptake of healthcare the healthcare is there but they can't because they can't afford it maybe transport it's not accessible transport going there so they need something and income that then they can be able to go to the health center they can afford their NHIF cover that's why we bring them together to hold each other's hand and have the information around how to deal with depression and all that but at the same time then they can have income generating activities and savings that give them economic freedom so then they can make quality decisions about their health, wealth and well-being Okay, we don't have we really running out of time but I would like Mary for you to give 30 seconds on what do you think as a society sisters around that mother the brothers, aunts and uncles what do you think they can do to make sure that we bring an end to postpartum depression as we wind up Okay, family is the key aspect of a woman's life if they can support these young mothers yes, it's been perceived to be wrong to have a child out of wedlock but it's not such a big scene as not supporting them and letting them in the hands of nobody so family should be at the frontline to hold the hands of all young women and girls no matter the mistakes they've made they need your help because if they are not helped they are going to suffer and die out of some issues if they can't support the children they will really help reduce these cases of infants being left on the streets increasing cases of abortions because if at all my family could support me through thick and thin I can't stand with me even when I'm pregnant until delivery and give me hope, constant hope and society to stop judging these women because people sometimes look at expecting women like the only people having sex so it should not be like that Okay, thank you very much guys for talking about that I hope that such conversations get to go out there for people to really know what postpartum depression is what I can say is that if you have someone around you and they have a newborn baby why don't take even find a day hold the baby for them let them even go for a walk let them try and do maybe some of the activities that they used to enjoy before that baby came so that we make sure that we are bringing mothers who can be able to support the child fully that is how we hand for you tonight on Y254 news my name is Patricia Muroki do have yourselves a very good night