 Hi everyone. Delighted to welcome everyone to part two of World Space Week. So globally, World Space Week ended over the weekend, but here at ANU we had so many great events planned that we wanted just to keep it going. The series of events is sponsored by the Australian National University and the ANU Institute for Space, which we like to call in space. Before we begin, I'd like to acknowledge and celebrate the first Australians on whose traditional lands and airways we meet and pay my respects to the elders past, present and emerging. My name is Professor Anna Moore. I'm the director of the ANU Institute for Space and the ANU Advanced Instrumentation and Technology Centre. Thank you for joining us for this discussion about how space data and satellite images can help manage bushfires. I'm delighted to welcome Dr. Marta Yebra, a distinguished remote sensing expert and researcher who has many titles. She is director of the ANU bushfire initiative. She is an ANU in space mission specialist. She's senior lecturer in environmental engineering at the Fenner School of Environment and Society, and she is a senior lecturer at the Research School of Aerospace, Mechanical and Environmental Engineering, and she's also associate editor for remote sensing of environment. Dr. Yebra has received many awards, including the prestigious Max Day Environmental Science Fellowship from the Australian Academy of Science, the CSIRO Pine Scott Career Award, and the Bushfire and Natural Hazards CRC's Outstanding Achievement in Research Utilization Award. But you may know her from her most important work, helping to fight bushfires more effectively with satellite data during last year's unprecedented fire season. Marta is a recognized expert and is often called in to advise on the ground firefighting teams about satellite data that can give them a more holistic view of the fires that they're battling. So Marta, thank you so much for joining us tonight. Thank you for having me, Anna. To the audience, we'll be taking your questions throughout the event. Please don't be shy, and please, we welcome all of your questions. You can sign them up in the Q&A section of this webinar and just start them at any time. So Marta, the work you're doing is amazing, it's valuable, it's fascinating to countless Australians. We'll spend most of our time talking about it, but for the students who are watching online and thinking about their own education, let's start at the beginning. So what got you interested in studying, researching, and teaching remote sensing? And do you want the long or the short story? Well, I wish I could say that I've been interested in remote sensing since I was a child, but that was not my case. It may sound a bit strange, but I think I got interested in remote sensing because of fate. And let me elaborate a bit more on that. So when I was very little, I was only interested in dancing ballet. I was in a professional company until I was 18 years old, and then I had an injury at a very good timing because it was time to start thinking about studying at the university. So, and then I wanted to study dentistry, so very different to what I'm doing at the moment. But I took the mandatory exam to access the university for dentistry, but unfortunately I didn't get the mark, I needed only 4.2, so very little difference. And then I decided to take a year off, first of all, to repeat the exam, but then during that time, I really had quiet time to think about what I really wanted. My life was so busy, training so many hours, ballet dancing, that I didn't really have time to think what I wanted to do professionally when that career was closed. So I dedicated time to get information about what I could study and I got into environmental science. I got very interested in studying environmental science and decided to do that. During those studies, I had a course on remote sensing and I have to admit that although I found it very fascinating, I didn't fully understand the utility of remote sensing while teaching the course at the university. Even though we had some computing labs with practical samples, I still didn't get engaged. So it was only towards the end of my degree when I volunteered to do some fieldwork for a project that was, which aim was to map a bus fare risk in a national park. So I went with some scientists to the field, I collected the data, I really put my hands on the research and I say, wow, now I understand why this is useful, and I wanted to do this. So it's when I decided to do a PhD on that topic. That's wonderful. You know, talking to many women researchers in particular is fascinating that when you ask them that question, they've often done a journey to get to where they are and is amazing scientists and it's almost like that breadth of experience and the journey in it has really helped them, you know, when they get there. I certainly did that too. So it's really great to hear. So, so moving on to space, space data so you and I often think and talk about space and and all the data that we can get from observing from space. But most people, I don't think appreciate that that is as much. So it's always a surprise to many people that you can get data for for Earth observing for bushfires from space. What does that matter to Australians? Yeah, well, that's a good point. So, so this matter for Australian because it actually benefit every single Australia in many different aspects of their lives. So this technology are critical in impacting government, industrial and personal daily decision making. So this is especially comes when, for example, for communications, Earth observation and even fostering the economy growth. One example, for example, is that just over a few, more than a few years, a decade ago, perhaps we were not using weather apps or online mapping applications to get more efficiently to our locations and now we cannot live without those. And also more specifically to the topic of my research and with remote sensing data, we can get very accurate information for fire managers to plan before and during and after a fire. And so with regards to bushfires in particular, you know, the access to space now is much easier than it once was and this this lends itself to lots of new opportunities, lots of innovation. Could you say a little bit about that with regards specifically to bushfires? Yes, or yeah. Well, as you said, now we have opportunities for more innovation up to now we have mainly be using satellite data that has been collected by other international space agencies. Because, well, Australian doesn't own their own space mission. And we have a space agency that is fairly new. It has, it was funded like a couple of years ago. So, so so far we've been using the data we get and we haven't complained and we've been making developments with the data we get. But now we have the opportunity because access to space is easier to develop a mission that are more target to specific applications in good fire management. And we can work with engineers to design and launch those missions. Very exciting. So, so, as we're here tonight, we were seeing major wildfires burning through parts of California. Just last week these fires were compared to the unprecedented bushfires we had here in Australia last year. We both live in Canberra. And like many, many others struggle to make it through that summer season, both driven by drought and extreme heat. We lost almost 6 million hectares of eucalyptus forest in the 2019-2020 bushfire season. And California's already lost more than half of that vegetation. And historically October is the most dangerous time of year for fires there. What do you think about when you read and see these headlines? Well, I feel very anxious. I think I want to help but at the same time I feel a bit powerless because it's truly incredible what is happening these years, the scale and the impacts of these huge events that we are having over the last years. And we certainly need to understand what's going on with these century fires because they are certainly changing and so does need to change the way we manage and monitor fires. In fact, you were part of a team that just examined the effects of last year's unprecedented bushfire season on Australia and compared satellite data on the ground estimates of damage. What did you find doing that? Yeah, well we carried two different studies that conclude two different things. So one of the studies I did with colleagues of the University of Tasmania and the University of Alcalá, that is the Spanish university where I did my PSE. This study was carried out to determine whether the black summer bushfires were anomalous. And we use satellite data from the European Space Agency to analyze the burn areas for all the satellite records we have since 2000. And we also analyzed the data and written records of all the major fires in Australia since 1851. And with this we wanted to gain a broader geographical and historical perspective of the fires we have had since that time. So what we found was that the extraordinary scale and intensity of the black summer fires were driven by climate conditions that has not been seen in a century, including three years of drought. And most importantly, what we also saw is that there were a lot of inconsistencies with the way government records are about the fires that are currently using field and aircraft based technologies. And those records were inconsistent with the numbers we got from the satellite records. So the official numbers of the burn extent of the last fire season coming from the official government records were 24% larger than those we obtained from the satellites. And this was mainly due to the fact that the satellite can pick up patches in the landscape within a fire perimeter that hasn't been burned, but the government reports about the fire perimeters and assume that all the vegetation in that fire perimeter is being equally burned. And then the other little study we did was looking at the severity of the fire in the Aurora Ballet in the ACT. So that's the fire we had at Namaji National Park near Canberra. And this work was done with ACT Parks and Conservation Service. So we flew with an helicopter over the park to collect observations of the fire severity around the park. And the objective was double, one to use this data to validate estimates from the satellite. And the other was also to assess the severity of the fire. So what we found basically was that 45% of the burn areas of the park were impacted at high severity, at the highest severity levels. And that will explain that the regeneration in those areas will be slower. So the vegetation will take longer to recover in those areas. Yeah, and we also show that in some areas that had been burned, we prescribed a burn nine months before that fire were almost untouched. Whereas other areas that were burned in the four or five years, previous the wildfire last year, were burned at a lower severity. So the study suggested that the program of the ACT Park, the prescribed burning program of the ACT Parks kind of was effective to decrease the severity of the Aurora Ballet fire. Right, understood. Wonderful. So we're getting some great questions in. Everyone please keep those questions coming in because we'll be reaching our Q&A part of the night pretty soon. So Marta, when did you first get involved in firefighting efforts? Well, firefighting efforts. I don't firefight. Yeah, but I guess you mean supporting and with information for firefighting. Well, during my PhD that I finished in 2008, I was working with two multidisciplinary projects that were assessing fire risk in Spain. And during that time, we had some end users from the fire industry involved in the project to make sure that our research was focused on their needs. But at that time, there was no truly engagement. It was more like an advisory role from the fire agencies, but I found very frustrated that when the project finished, and this happened very often in research, their research was not used. So kind of the project dismissed and all the tools and the online tools we developed just stopped because there was no continuation from the funding. But when I came to Australia, and then I joined the Bush Fire Matohas RCRC and I led the development of the Australian flammability monitoring system, the story changed completely. So the Bush Fire Matohas RCRC is a research center that is funded by the fire industry and the force since the beginning of any of the projects and the end users are engaged very much and to make sure that what we work on and the research we produce will be used by then. So the engagement since the very, very early stages of the project and saving that project on a way to make sure that they will use the products that make the difference. So it's been mainly in the last year when I have seen that my research is being truly used to make the decision and had impact beyond probably seeing the research in a journal. Well, I mean, that's a great message to take forward, isn't it? Not just for bushfire researchers, but for all of us, right? That to really make sure you engage with that end user and know their needs and then your own research will be very important. used. Yeah. You cannot expect that end user will read your research paper and will make use of it. That's not going to happen. That's wise words for all of us. So more recently, you and I have been talking about satellites and which is very exciting. So can you tell us a bit about your efforts to build a satellite that can detect areas where fires are more likely to occur? Yes. So as I previously said, most of my research so far is in making use of existing satellite data. And when using that data, I realized that there were a lot of limitations because that data, those satellite missions, the data from those satellite missions I was using was not specifically designed to map fuel properties. That is mainly what I do. So I use satellite data to retrieve information about how dry the vegetation is. Because it's important because the drier the vegetation, the more likely a fire is to occur if there is an ignition source. Of course, we still need that ignition. So I realized that the data was doing a fair job, but it was not very specific. So that's why we are working on this specific mission to be the first Australian mission target to monitor the fuel condition. And we are going to tune the sensors to be more sensitive to monitor moisture content and fuel load in a clay forest that have a very interesting way to reflect the energy from the sun. So it has very different spectral properties that other vegetation types in Australia and across the world. So what you're saying is that what you want to be able to do is to map Australia to quite fine detail to understand where those potential hot spots could be the season before. So you're not talking about detecting fires here during the season. You're talking about knowing where those hot spots and dangerous areas will be the season before and then being able to give that information to end users. That's very formal, isn't it? So give that information to areas where they can maybe even protect their towns and things like this and where fire services can focus on that when the season comes. Is that about right? Yes, exactly. So having very accurate timely maps of fuel moisture content and fuel loads can inform all those decisions you made. So they can use it to issue public alerts for potential higher fire risk. They can make decisions about the closure of fires or issue total fire bans. So all these decisions are based on information of fire weather, of course, but also the condition of the fuel. And also it's very important for planning prescribed burns, for example, because those prescribed burns that are more and more difficult to plan because the fires are getting longer and longer. So the windows of opportunities to do prescribed burns are reducing quite a lot. So this information can help them to schedule those burns so they will do it at a time where the fuel is not too dry because if it is too dry, there is high chance that the fire will go very quickly out of control. And also during the response, this information is normally input into five behavioral models. So once a fire has started, information about fuel condition coming from the satellite can be used to run five behaviors and know what's the most likely path that the fire may follow. So I know that you got the idea for this particular satellite by chatting to an astronomer who had an interesting piece of technology, someone an astronomer who knows absolutely nothing about bushfires. So could you say a little bit about that? It's a really nice story about how you can end up with some really great solutions when you put different disciplines together. It was a very interesting experience because at the beginning we could not understand each other very well. I knew a lot about fires and I knew about satellites, of course, but more like a user. I've never built or I've never even thought about building my own satellite and he was the opposite. He's a person, Rob's are a very experienced on building infrared technology for astronomy missions so he was always pointing up to the sky. So it was very interesting, first of all, to make him think to point down and look at the earth instead of the stars and I have found it very, I have found it a very interesting experience to talk to him and yes, trying to get the mission complex details. I know what it is needed on the ground to make my modelling. He knows how to build the technology to make that possible. So it's a very nice team. Just a reminder for those that have just joined us recently, please keep sending your questions in. We've got some great questions which we'll get to very shortly. So, Marta, if your satellite, your bushfire satellite is successful, it'll be one of the first Australian satellites in space, not the first, but it'll be one of the first and probably one of the biggest because Australia is just entering the space industry and again, and has great ambition. So how does that, how does it make you feel that you're part of that, you're part of that community? It makes me feel excited, yes, but also, if I'm honest, I've been nervous because it's a very ambitious goal, but I feel very proud to be able to contribute to those first family of satellites that will be built by Australians. So, and then, yeah, with two main advantages, I guess one is that again they will be fit for purpose for Australian conditions. So that will be a game changer in terms of the acquisition of data that I will use for my modelling. But then of course it will contribute to the Australian economy and thus, especially in these times of coronavirus crisis is something very important. Well, just to follow up on the working with partners and driving the space industry. So how important is it to work with global partners in this area and bushfires? I know, for example, both from the agency perspective, both NASA and the Canadian Space Agency, you're working very closely with them to do this. Could you say just a little bit about that? Well, it is very important, it is really important, mainly for probably in two different angles. One is because global coordination of wildfire earth observation initiatives will enable the development of virtual constellations of satellites that will collect information pretty far during the fire and post-fire to monitor the landscape. And also it will help to standardise processing and product delivery. And such coordination is very important to ensure the maximum value of the products we will generate to the emergency management from earth observation systems. And with that, of course, will facilitate the ability of the emergency management to adapt to the rising threat of wildfires and the climate change. But then in terms of, again, data provision, so it's also very important to have collaboration with other countries. For example, there is one thing that is called the International Charter for Space and Major Disasters for Wildfire Emergencies. The Charter is very efficient to prioritise data acquisition. So basically when a country has an emergency, a natural disaster or something, they can activate the Charter. So all satellites point to that specific location and they provide as much earth observation data as possible to help and inform the decisions around that specific natural disaster. So again, international collaboration is important. Wonderful. I'm going to go to a question because we've got two questions from someone who wants to really dive into the details with you. So this is probably a good time. Okay, so Michael says data, it would be good to have details. Infrared question mark, biomass question mark. And then another one is I really need to understand the physics that is used before any of the discussion can be understood. I hear data, but I've got no idea what it is nor how to interpret. Yes, that's a wonderful question. I didn't know that as well before I started to do this. All right, so in simple ways, so the solar radiation hits the surface of the lips and then the lips of the vegetation and talking about vegetation because that's our target at the moment. That's what we are monitoring. And depending on the water content that those lips have the energy reflected in a lesser or in a greater way. So when the vegetation is very dry, most of the energy in the subway infrared region is reflected back to the sensor to the sensor in the spacecraft protocol. But when they will, the plan has a lot of water, most of the energy is absorbed. So because of those differences in the amount of energy from this sand that is reflected back because of those differences, we can do some modeling to retrieve your most true content. And for fuel biomass is similar but instead of focusing on the absorption of the water and we focus on the absorption by other components in the leaves by, for example, cellulose and lignin. Right. And so if we were to take a picture of this vegetation from space using optical wavelengths like what our eyes respond to, you wouldn't be able to do any of this. You wouldn't write just the colors of the of the vegetation. So, so by being in the, what we call the one to two or two and a half micron region, the short wave infrared. The eyes don't see, we don't see this, but the camera does. It's able to distinguish both how dry patches of vegetation are and also what some of the content is that correct? Am I getting this right? The type of plant and things? Am I getting that one right? Yeah, that's correct. So there are some plant functional types that respond more to the visible range of the spectra. And we know about that the grass, for example, is green when it's wet and then it gets yellow when it's dry. So for those type of fuels, you can retrieve kind of indirectly the water content because of the change in the color. And it's because there is an indirect relationship between the chlorophyll content in the leaf and the water. So as the plant gets drier, the pigments, the chlorophyll pigments in the leaf decrease and the leaf change color. But that doesn't happen in Eucalyptus forest, for example, or other plants that are very well adapted to drought conditions. That's why we need to go to the sewage infrared region. Right. Well, Michael, that was all for you. And I hope, let us know if we can answer something else there for Ma. Ma to can answer something else there for you. So your latest project is director of the ANU bushfire initiative, where satellite data is just part of a much bigger initiative, a much bigger picture of what you want to do. Could you tell us a little bit about that initiative where you're not just using the satellite data, but it's a much more holistic technology, social aspects of bushfire resilience and science as well. So far, we've been talking about the monitoring fire risk, mainly the prefire phase of bushfire management, but for the ANU bushfire initiative, we are targeting a better early fire detection and extinguishing. So our overall ambitious goal is to detect a fire one minute after ignition and extinguishing it 60 minutes after we detected it. And why do we want this? Because it sounds obvious, but the longer it takes a fire to be detected, the larger it's going to be and therefore the harder it's going to be to put it off or to control it. So that's why we agreed that that would be our ambitious goal. How do we achieve that? That's another story. 60 minutes or 60 seconds? Oh, 60 seconds. Did I say 60 seconds? He's getting light in the day. 60 minutes. So it's one minute. So what you want to be able to do for the whole of Australia, or at least for those hot spots you've already identified the season before, is that you want to be able to detect a small fire within one minute. Then that's right. And then alert your whole the whole system around it to be able to put that out. Wow. That's that's a huge vision. So yeah, let's break that one down a little bit. So to get there, we need a combination of technologies. There is no a single technology that will achieve that ambitious goal. And of course, satellite imagery is not going to achieve that goal, but itself as well. So what the program and the program we put together a consistent and larger approach to both fire detection. So we are going to be testing in the short term and on ground sensors and cameras and mounted in fire towers. And that will be monitoring at a very high resolution and frequency specific areas of high risk in the landscape that we will identify with fire agencies. The initial tree that will be in the city in the city in the magic. But of course, this will be complemented with a platforms that come and look at larger skills like high altitude balloons, drones, and of course in the higher and later we'll have satellites. And the objective in terms of the satellite because we are talking about the space is to have a payload and specifically designed to detect active fires and with optics in the thermal infrared and mounted in in a geostationary satellite that will be able to constantly look at Australia, providing imagery, very high risk, not high resolution, medium resolution, around 100 meters, probably, of Australia. I'm sorry, Mada. When you say resolution. Oh, sorry. I mean the spatial resolution. And so, yes, so the size of the pixel on the image. So the minimum unit in the image that you can see. So, for example, if we talk about 500 by 500 spatial resolution, that means that you can, you cannot distinguish anything, any component. Within that spatial resolution. And the higher the spatial resolution, the more smaller objects you can see from space. So with the geostationary satellite and we can have a lot of temporal spatial resolutions, sorry temporal resolution. So we have a lot of frequency in the imagery because again is geostationary satellite is always looking at the same location on the earth and can take imagery. Let's say, for example, every 10 minutes. So just going to the questions, Sean asked, is the data collected from geostationary satellites? Well done, Sean. So I think we've just had that one answered. And we have a question from Jeffrey is, is it technically feasible to precisely map fire edges from space in real time. It depends how you define precisely, sorry, I cannot say that word precisely. And again, it depends of the spatial resolution of the satellite data you are using. So currently, from space, you have a private owned satellite that can collect information at centimeters spatial resolution and that has been used to map the perimeter of the fires as well. And there are quite a few private companies that provide that data. But using publicly available satellite data and the best you can do is using the European Space Agency Sentinel to data that is about 10 or 20 meters spatial resolution. So, again, that's the accuracy you can get in terms of the parameters. But yeah, is satellite data has huge potential in terms of mapping the progression of the fires. Fantastic. Well, the questions are flowing in. So I'm just going to, I'm going to jump straight into questions now, Mara. Some of these are these are fantastic. So, Daniel, will the data from this new satellite have a public API for we hobbyists playing at home. I don't think we have that yet. Well, you may have an answer and I want your view as the director of clean space. Yeah, I guess so I am, but I don't think we have work carefully in the business case. But most of the data we most of the algorithms we have developed and to provide information about fuel most of content are all based on public platforms that can be accessed by anybody. And one of the sample we've got is the Australian family monitoring system. That was developed by the with funds from the booth and that was our CRC. But yeah, I don't think we have decided around that but I am. Yeah, if there are no constraints around that I will happily make the data publicly accessible. I think that raises the great question. I mean, I'm an astronomer by trade and we often rely on a public identification of interesting targets. And I think that, you know, we have machine learning tools and things like this to try and spot certain things but it's still today at least artificial intelligence is not quite at the level by which it's as good as a human recognition is something unusual about a strange galaxy or a star that's exploded or something like that. So could you say a little bit about the computational requirements needed to spot these these fires and because I think that's that's a very strong component of what you're doing. It is definitely as and as we move to higher spatial and temporal resolution the computing needs are even higher. So yeah, we have a team of experts on artificial intelligence that are trying to get a clever algorithms to compress the data. So instead of having to to run the first to download and storage all the historical archive of satellite imagery in a local repository. And we have the data on the crowd on the cloud. So the algorithms can be run on demand. But again for being able to do that, we need to have a very clever artisan intelligence algorithm that will be able to compress the information so it can be run at real time on the cloud. So just just trying to get some more questions in here so we have a question from a good friend of ours Christopher Tyler from the fireball network. He's doing some fantastic stuff in Australia and California if anyone wants to reach out and fight and read up about them. Okay Chris asks, by when do you want your one minute system up and running. Yeah well and by when definitely finished and proofed by 2025 that is the because the program we've got is a five years program. But of course we we are going to start the trials in this summer. So, Jeffrey, is it technically feasible to precisely spot new lightning ignitions from space in real time. What would it cost to establish a specialized satellite to do this job. Yes, it is possible. And but I wouldn't know how it will cost to have a specialized satellite to look at that. And but I assume you will need also a geostationary satellite if you want to to have real time information on the lighting emissions with high frequency. And if that's the case, geostationary satellite payload can cost on around 100 millions and to develop just the payload then on top of that is is the satellite itself and they those needs to be very large satellites is not like the cute side that are cheaper to build on quickly. And if I mean compared to the devastation, you know, financially and emotionally more importantly of fire season like we just had 100 million is, you know, it's not it's not really you know compared to the economic hit. That's certainly something should be considered and the benefits can be great because they did with the ground stations of lighting detection, there is still the problem of special interpolation so you have access patient is ground station in X locations and then you always have to interpolate the data and the presentation. Okay question from Lily. Hi Lily. 60 seconds, which means we need a satellite constellation and I assume the number of satellites and not a small number is that correct. I think you sort of answer this with geostationary but maybe it's a maybe you could say something a little bit about geostationary versus the constellation approach. Yes, sure. Yes. So, yeah, for polar or orbit satellites because of course they have a time to revisit the same location of of the earth. You need a constellation, as you said, if you want to achieve a high temporal resolution and for activity detection that's a key aspect you need to have a frequent acquisitions to make sure you just don't miss the ignition. So, if you have a time, if you only over fried at 11am in the morning and the fire starts at 1pm is going to take you far too late to too long to to detect that fire. So, sorry, I lost. What was the question so we just So, my question's been being taken off. The question was, if you have to, if you could only use, you know, if you can only use low earth orbit to do the fire detection, then you need a lot of satellites because you've got to have that 60 second refresh, basically refresh rate. But what you've explained is that by using a geostationary, maybe we should explain what that is. So, geostate, maybe you could, sorry, I'm asking your question. So, the geostationary satellite can take more imagery per day. With just one single satellite, you can take imagery every 10 minutes to achieve that with a leo constellation, you may need around 200 CubeSats or even more. Christopher Taylor may have the answer to that. But the geostationary satellite, because it's further away in the space, will need, it cannot achieve the spatial resolution that you can achieve with low earth orbit satellites. And therefore, the probability of a geostationary satellite to detect a small fire is lower than a low earth orbit satellite. So that's why we need to combine both. The geostationary satellite gives you the temporal resolution, so it gives you the frequency, it makes sure you don't miss the fire, even though it is a bit larger when you detect it. But the low earth orbit constellation gives you a lot more ground resolution that is essential to detect small fires. And so, a geostationary orbit is a sweet spot where you put a satellite because its velocity is the same velocity as the earth rotating. So what that means is it's always above you at any time of the day, it follows you as it does its orbit. And that's a really great orbit for things like communications and for taking pictures of the same place above the ground. But it's a lot, it's a lot further away. Okay, so Sean, so will that higher resolution, less than one meter, be available from geostationary or will it need to be in closer orbits? I think you can achieve a one meter spatial resolution from low earth orbit. Indeed, there are a lot of private companies that provide that, but we don't aim for that. We aim for a spatial resolution from Leo of about 10 meters squared on the ground. And then, but from Geo, because you're just so much further away, you know, a factor of 100 away, it scales like that. So you need a telescope, which is 100 times bigger, to be able to see this, someone was holding a banner with I am here. You'd be able to see that at lower orbit, but you wouldn't be able to see that detail at geostationary. Thankfully fires are very hot. They produce a lot of photons so you can you can detect them from a long way away. Tony, have you considered the policy and funding implications to best leverage this technology current funding policy for for fires places the funding burden on local councils first until a localized state of emergency is declared. Great question. To be honest, we haven't considered that. We initially wanted to demonstrate the technology and the capability of the technology before going to get to the implementation and the other government level. My screen just refreshed. Okay, so this is from anonymous. Will you be able to predict whether created by fires with this new satellite. That's an excellent question. All right. So, whether created by far so there there is some research that has been done to to look at the, the clouds and the shape of the clouds and see if that can give you some information on when part of formulas are developing. And so that's like the preface before a firestorm. And but I don't think so wave infrared will be the best technology to look into that. And because so wave infrared has a bit of penetration into crowds. So perhaps for that kind of application visible bands that may be able to track clouds is more efficient, but it could be something that potentially could be useful for And we have another question from anonymous. So can space data and indigenous fire control practices be used together. And I guess, why not, but I guess in the general practice and they know very well and their land. So I guess that the main issue there is that they know when to burn they know how to burn. So I'm not sure how a satellite data cooling form their practice. And because again, in terms of prescribed burning, I can see how far managers use this information to plan and know when and where to burn, but indigenous have their own knowledge of the land. So I'm not sure up to what extent they will even want to consider this information, but it's definitely a very interesting point and perhaps something that we should definitely happen to account and discuss with these communities to see how they think this information could inform their knowledge as well. We're certainly seeing. Thank goodness a lot. A lot of those conversations happening both in the US as well as well as here. So there's obviously a, I mean just tremendous amount of experience there that's maybe not being used as much as it should be so be great to see that. Isaac, what is the biggest challenge, Marta, you have faced in your work. The biggest challenge I have faced in my work. Yes, I guess be brave enough to put a product in front of end users that perhaps I know is not perfect. But it could be useful. Let me elaborate a bit more. So scientists tend to to only disseminate information when they know it's perfect. And it's very much ready to be used and they have proof that it performs with a R square one and no errors at all. But but if you wait until that moment and you may lose opportunities and or you may never make a contribution to a specific application. So with the time I have learned that a farm managers appreciate the implementation or research that is perhaps not perfect, but I can still improve their decisions somehow that is also very important to make sure they understand the limitations of the research and or the product itself. So now what are the uncertainties of the product you are producing. For example, if you are producing a map of few moisture content and has an error of X percent, they need to know what's there or what's the uncertainty so they can base their decision in based on those uncertainties. So if the uncertainty is very high and they may not trust that the specific estimate at a given time if the uncertainty is low they may use it to inform the decisions more strongly. So that's been a challenge because again at the beginning I was a bit perfectionist as well. But I have learned with the time that you can still provide useful information even though it's not perfect. And I think we have time for one more question before quick. Have you considered using the more detailed fuel moisture maps to enable fire prediction softwares to more accurately predict fires operationally? Definitely. Definitely that's one of the key applications. But at the moment most of the five behavioral models that are used operationally by fire agencies are not ready to directly ingest these detailed special maps of fuel moisture content conditions. So some of the line of research that I'm trying to foster is to further developing five behavioral models that are better placed to directly ingest these detailed information and can be run especially and be updated regularly. And very last question for me. So let's go into the future five years with what you are starting now with your collaborators in industry and the fire services and others. What would you like to achieve in those five years looking back? In five years time, yeah. Again, I would like to have this integrated information system where the fire managers can have accurate information about the landscape condition, dryness, loads, a different spatial and temporal resolutions using any kind of data that has been collected at any time. And that can be directly ingested into a five behavioral model as we have discussed now to know where the fire is going to progress. But before that, of course, I would like to have this integrated approach for early fire detection. So again, first, we detect a fire very quickly, then we know how the fuel is, we integrated this with weather conditions and we run the fire behavior. We know sadly where the fire may go and all based on satellite information that is provided automatically to the end users in a very end user friendly interface. That is another thing that is also difficult to develop sometimes. Wonderful. Well, we've come to an end. I could be speaking much longer as always. Thank you so much, Marta, for joining us and for giving us a vision of where Australia could be leading the world in five years time with regards to bushfire management. Thank you, Anna, to you and everybody for listening. Thank you, everyone. Wonderful questions. And we'll see you next time.