 Hi everyone and welcome to the eighth seminar of the series of the Latin American webinar on physics My name is Abelino Vicente. I'm from the University of Liège in Belgium and I will be your host today So it's a pleasure for me to introduce Hernana Sorey from Laboratorio Detección de Partículas y Radiación, lab TPR, a lab that belongs to the Centro Atomico Bariloche and Instituto Valsero in Argentina. He will talk about LAGO, an extended cosmic observatory in Latin America Well, he received his PhD from Instituto Valsero in Bariloche, Argentina and after a post-doc in Universidad Industrial de Santander in Bucaramanga, Colombia, he moved back to lab TPR where he is currently a researcher working on astroparticle physics Today Hernan's talk will be titled LAGO, an extended cosmic observatory in Latin America and we are very glad to have him as our speaker today I would like to remind you that we can be part of the discussion by writing questions, pollings using Google Plus, a Q&A system, and also with Twitter, using Hashtag So, welcome everybody and now Hernan, what is your question? Well, thank you very much for your presentation and for giving me the opportunity to be here with you I will start to share my screen in order to share the presentation and then I will come back for the questions if you agree Okay, so as they introduced me, my name is Hernan Azelea and I will talk about our Latin American project which is called LAGO, which means Latin American Shagant Observatory What we are doing here in Latin America is to measure cosmic rays with extreme precision and in different sites of Latin America So, the overview of this talk, we will start talking about the LAGO project and then I will describe briefly the detectors that we use in LAGO and then I will go through the different LAGO programs that we are carrying out here in Latin America and then a final conclusion and an invitation to other people to share this opportunity and to join us in this project As I mentioned before, LAGO is an extended observatory which is located in eight countries in Latin America We are including now a new detector in Brazil It will be working by the end of this year and the LAGO collaboration is a Latin American collaboration that includes more or less 17 members from 22 institutions from nine Latin American countries Recently, Spain is joining us in the LAGO collaboration They are giving good support for the data analysis frameworks and the simulation frameworks using the grid network in Europe We have scientific goals and we have academic goals Within our scientific goals are to measure the flux of astro-particles up to the cosmic rays and we study transient and long-term space-wave phenomena and we also measure with extreme detail the background radiation at ground level where the detectors are located and at the same level of importance, we have academic goals Those are to train Latin American students Here in Latin America it is not so easy to have access to different facilities in high energy or in astro-particle or even in astrophysics Our main goal is to train Latin American students in these techniques and to form people in these fields and also to build a Latin American network of astro-particle researchers This is the current status of our LAGO network You can see that we are mainly distributed over the Andes range in the Cordegera de los Andes and we work as a non-centralized and collaborative network of institutions We have three working groups and we have a coordination committee which is formed by one member from each country and the principal investigator, the coordinator, the general coordinator of the collaboration and we share all the development and all the expertise that we produce in some side with the older people in the network It is a highly collaborative network of institutions We produce, for example, the electronics for the control and acquisition of data of our detectors We produce this data in Bariloche here in Argentina and in Mexico but now it is being produced in Colombia and from Colombia we are developing new sites in the Andean range from Ecuador, Venezuela and Peru and Bolivia So we share all these expertise produced in some side with people in some other side We start with the detector The detector is very simple, it is a so-called water chain of detector We use these kinds of detectors because it is very cheap It is reliable, simple and it is autonomous because of the electronics that we produce for this detection The detector is based on a commercial tank which is a different detection area which is filled with purified water It depends on the water that we have in each site We produce different processes to purify this water Each detector is covered inside with an inner coating which is a very high diffusive and reflective fabric which is under the water and the main purpose of this coating is to diffuse the chain of light that each charge particle produces when it goes through the detector This light after the diffusion in the Tyvek is collected by a PMT which is typically an 8 or 9 inch PMT from Hamamatsu, Fodonis or electronic tubes We use a digitizer board from 40 to 100 mHz and 10 to 25 nanoseconds in the sampling ratio We also use an FPGA controlled by a Raspberry Pi computer to produce the detector control, the telemetry and the data acquisition All this equipment is in time by using the GPS and with this mode we have more or less 10 nanoseconds of time differences between the detectors located up to 1,000 km in distance The consumption of the station is more or less 10 watts Another process that we are developing is the station that controls the detector The idea here is that we have a station that controls the detector and also acquire atmospheric data that could be used for other experiments For example, we are starting to measure the concentration of carbon dioxide in the sites where we are measuring the cosmic rays because it is of very interest for people working in global warming processes or the distribution of plants in these sites to know the temperature, the pressure and also the concentration of greenhouse gases We use our station to acquire a lot of atmospheric data Some of this data we use to correct our data and some other is for other communities that could use this type of data Of course, this can be used by any university independent of the water channel of the detector It is not necessary to build a water channel of the detector to measure these environment variables So we could perform some kind of environmental network of data supported in these kind of autonomous stations Well, about the Lago programs, Lago have four different programs which we call the Lago Extreme Universe Space Weather, Lago Virtual and Lago Universities Each one of these programs has different scope As I mentioned before, all the people working in the collaboration is working in three different working groups The working group number one is the physics Number two is the detectors and number three is the data Of course, all are very related because the data analysis that are developing has in string contact with the physics and also with the detectors So this is mainly the organization of our working group So to enter into the details, we are a Latin American network and since we are distributed along Latin America we have to move the data from all of these different sites to the central repository and that means that we have to share more or less one terabyte of data per year per detector For the simulations that characterize each site, we have to move three terabytes per year per site All of these we are using where it is available The red clara which is an academic network of high bandwidth network that is present in more of the detectors in more of the countries that are operating Lago and we use this kind of network to share all the data and to move all the data to the central repository which is located in Colombia Lago was also selected by China Reds which is a project from the European committee and it was the first data repository in Latin America and we are implementing in our data the so-called DART protocol which means that the data has to be accessible, has to be reproducible and has to have some level of trustworthiness to warranty the quality of our data and also as I mentioned before, we are developing a Corsica version of the simulation codes that it is implemented on the grid and it is available for all the people working in Lago and also for all the people working in astroparticle physics that could want to use this implementation of Corsica simulations So about the first physics program, this is the so-called Lago Extreme Universe and in this slide I am showing three different extensive air showers when a cosmic rays enter into the atmosphere it produces a cascade of particles which could have millions or billions of particles depending on the energy these particles are developing all the reactions across the atmosphere and the particles, the finer particles reach into the ground and those are the particles that we are measuring using our detectors of course the type of primary, the type of cosmic rays which we call the primaries that enter into the atmosphere will dominate the type of interactions that are produced into the atmosphere and for instance you can see here the different developments of a shower initiated by a gamma or a proton or an iron nucleus they are very different because the interactions that are present are very different in type typically the gamma showers are initiated by QED reactions instead protons and iron or nucleus interactions are dominated by QCD interactions and at the level of the ground you can see three different components in the distribution of particles and you will find what we call the electromagnetic contents of the shower which is mainly photons and electrons and positrons and also the muonic component which is formed by muons and by muons positive and negative and all the other particles form the adrenic component of the shower but as this depended the development of this shower depends also on the altitude because the atmosphere acts as a shield to this kind of particles so after the first interaction and when the medium energy is below some critical values the particles start to be absorbed by the atmosphere so they disappear from the evolution of the cascade so if you go up and up into the atmosphere you could reach a lower energy source as an example I am showing here the same electromagnetic shower initiated by a gamma of 500 TV and here you can see four other different showers initiated by gammas by but of lower energy of course from 1GV, 5GV, 20GV and 100GV and you can see that if you want to measure these very low energy showers you have to go up and up into the atmosphere because of the absorption of the atmosphere is very high so with this in mind this was the original purpose of Lago it was to detect gamma reverse in high altitude sites in Latin America and by using this kind of simulations we are deploying four detectors in Sierra Negra which is in Mexico, these are four segmented 40 square meters water channel detectors and the first one of it start to measure in August of 2014 and the other four detectors will operate beginning this year in 2015 we are deploying all the detectors that we have in Chagatasha we are changing the electronics in Chagatasha giving this new detector electronics to increase the sensitivity of the detectors in Chagatasha and we hope that in Venezuela at Pico Spejo the cableway will be operative in this year and we could start the operation of our water channel core detectors in Pico Spejo this is more or less 400, 4500 meters of altitude and we are also doing the reanalysis of the full dataset to use new detectors, new analysis techniques to look for CHEV candidates and we found two new candidates that will be presented in the ICRC and also we are developing in Colombia the first steps in the development of an array of water channel core detectors that will be the first after-particle array that have been located in the equatorial zone so for the spaceware, spaceware is very important for us because it is mainly dominated by what we call the zone-earth connection in the sense that the dynamic conditions in the outer space of the earth are modulated by the solar activity this has importance not only at the physics or the basics, the basic research but also for studies that have to be with the technologies like satellites or grids of electrical powers or also for the corrosion in long pipelines all of these geomagnetic effects and heliospheric effects have influence over our daily life so it is important for us to produce data that could be used to monitor and also to forecast the occurrence of this kind of... I think we are having a problem with the connection... Hernán, are you there? Okay, this is something that was somehow expected that could happen so in the meantime, while Hernán comes back, let me say a few things so first of all, you are invited to ask questions, to write comments whatever you need, you can do it in the Q&A section in Google Class that would be very welcome because we can ask questions afterwards and of course you can also use this method to suggest topics for future seminars so feel free to do it and let's see if Hernán comes back, if he is not here so Hernán, let me see if I can contact him somehow if he left let's wait a few minutes to see if he can reconnect, hopefully he will be able so, as I was saying, you can use this method of Q&A Ah, okay, Hernán is back so, I think... Hernán is back Yes? Okay, so I hand you over the top so you can continue Okay, sorry, it was... No problem Okay, so the final idea is to correlate the variations of the signals at the detector level with the solar activity to do that, you have to control all of these modulations principally those related with the detector response and also with the atmospheric conditions that are the ones that you can measure directly in each side so this support in a complex change of simulation which are very detailed simulation chain for to do this and to include the geomagnetic effects at different conditions, we use the DST which is the disturbance storm index to measure the... to know the status of the geomagnetic field and we calculate in real time the directional rigidity cut-off at each one of our sites and then we have a primary flux using measurements of this primary flux and we do course simulation for each site at each one of our sites now we are including... we are starting to develop a process to obtain the atmospheric profile of at each site by using the global data simulation system which is provided by NOAA and using the measure spectra for all nuclei from protons to iron we produce... we try to reproduce the secondary particles at ground level which are the ones that will be measured by our detector and with these simulations we obtain the secondary flux at the detector level which is modulated by the geomagnetic field and the atmospheric conditions then we have three different simulations for the detector response we have a very simple code that we call LagoFast which is based in more complicated simulations then we have a detailed simulation program based on Shanford which is a typical code that you can find in particle physics and now we are starting to using Fluca for these kind of simulations I find an example of the different flux depending on the altitude you can find here the simulated flux at the detector level for two of our sites this is at the left of the screen at Bariloche, the flux expected at Bariloche and in the right you can find the expected flux of secondaries and the distribution of momentum of these particles at Chacaltaya which is in Bolivia at more than 5000 meters above sea level and you can find that in the total number of particles we have almost an order of magnitude in the number of particles and also the distribution is very different you have more or less 20% of muons in the total content of particles at ground level for these simulations and the parameters of these simulations and using the same parameters you have 5% of muons at more than 5000 and 240 meters of altitude this is expected because at this altitude the muons, the pions have no time to decay the charge pions produce charge muons so in this kind of sense we are doing different simulations at different sites each people working in the working group 1 the physics related working group are producing different simulations for example you can see in the left upper panel one of the simulations of the electromagnetic effect at one of our sites in Colombia these have been produced by students in Colombia at the right you can see the site characterization of one of the new sites in Colombia which is located in Pasto near the border with Ecuador these are the first attempts of simulations of the people of Pasto then you can find in the lower panel the fluca response that has been produced for the tank that is located in Ecuador, in Quito and for instance in the lower right panel you can find one of the simulations of the Chang-Ford simulation for the response of the tank to the muons present in the particles then we can compare these kind of simulations with data coming from the detectors that are being simulated and compare for instance the times of decay of the pulses to compare with the simulations and validate these simulations so for the data analysis we developed an automatic detection of histogram features we produce a charge-integrate the charge of each pulse is integrated and we do some kind of pulse-shaped discrimination of the pulses produced in each one of the detectors and by using these charge histograms which are related with the energy deposited in the detector by each type of particles we produce this integration of the histogram by bands and using these bands we have the counter of the number of particles within this the positive energy inside the detector and using this we know that for example the yellow band is dominated by electromagnetic the electromagnetic component of the shower photons and electrons and positrons the orange band is dominated by muons and the red band is dominated by simultaneous particles going through the detector at the same time so by using these we could do some kind of analysis in different energy ranges for the particles and the modulation of the flux by looking at different energy ranges of the positive energy in our detector which are related with different primary energies so by doing that we can see here for example what we call a four-wesh event this is the diminution in the flux of particles at ground level which correspond to the coronal mass ejection reaching the earth and producing in some cases like in this one a geomagnetic storm so from ground level and using a single water chain of detector which has an area of less than two square meters we are able to detect the occurrence of this kind of phenomena which is extremely important for the forecast and for the understanding of solar space weather phenomena and also by looking specifically at the muon band we could have for example in this case the variation of the muons particles at ground level so by using this tank and with this type of analysis we are able to reproduce data produced by other different detectors such as the global neutron monitor it is not the global muon monitor it is not equivalent because since we could have some contamination from electromagnetic particles at the muon band but the modulation that we observe is compatible with the modulation expected by the flux of muons which correspond to this band so in this case and in the sense of the space weather we are producing new sites that are mainly oriented to study this space weather phenomena and since we measure mainly charged particles primary charged particles it is important for us to go to sites where the geomagnetic factors is the lower possible and the Antarctica and also the Arctic zone has a very low geomagnetic specificity so we are starting to develop a site in the Antarctica we are starting with the construction of a laboratory in one of the Argentinian bases that are located in the Antarctic Peninsula this is the Marambio base and you can see there the particular installation that we will use in the Antarctica and also we can, by putting one detector in one level and another detector in another level and using for example the concrete floor in some building we could emulate a muon counter by looking in coincidences between the upper tank and the lower tank because of the shielding produced by the tank and by the concrete floor we are certainly sure that only those muons could go through all of these systems and so if we measure in coincidences we are sure that we are measuring in the lower tank only the flux of muons so other developments like the one that is being built in Colombia at the Universidad de San Dander or by Conida Perú in the Huancacho geomagnetic observatory we are starting to develop small arrays of water-chemical detectors in this case you can see here three water-chemical detectors in one array a triangular-shaped array of 100 meters of size and in this case we can measure not only the individual flux at each one of these detectors but also we could find correlation between the signals in the three different detectors to find the occurrence of showers of higher energy by using this kind of arrays so by doing this kind of array of water-chemical detectors we are starting to go to higher energy with respect to have a single tank measuring only the background flux of secondary background layer so for the background this is based on simulations and you can see that the atmospheric reaction produced part of the background radiation that we are exposing everyday life and of course since the atmosphere introduced a shielding effect on these astro-particles coming from outside of the Earth you can see that as you go up and up the number of particles has been increased up to the altitude of 4,000 or 14 kilometers in this case at the 14 kilometers we reach the maximum number of particles and in this case you can see that at the commercial flight level of 11,000 meters of altitude you have more or less 102 orders of magnitudes in the total flux of particles that you could respect to the sea level values and other developments that we are conducting in some countries of the LIGO project is to start to build muongraphy of volcanoes this muongraphy technique is quite similar to the radiography technique that it has been used in everyday life but in this case we use muons which are very penetrating particles into the different type of matters to use these muons as tracers of the density distributions inside the volcanoes by using this you can find ratios by measuring the flux of the directional flux of muons through different type of objects you can measure the integrated density along this trajectory and with this you can obtain the density profile inside of the volcano and you can find different type of structures like the pipes or magmatic chambers of this kind of thing inside the detector as an example of this technique I am showing here a muongraphy that is performed by a Japanese team of different type of volcanoes and in this case you can find the magmatic chamber and the pipe inside of this volcano and this kind of studies that we are starting reproducing parallel to Lago in different countries of the region in Latin America we are starting here in Argentina there is a project approved in Colombia many people from Ecuador and also from Peru are very interested in this kind of techniques and also the technology that we developed for Lago another as a particle experiment to measure this kind of volcanic phenomenon this is our proposal for the telescope that we are starting to build with shown efforts from different countries in Latin America that combines the usual technique that we use in this kind of volcano muongraphy with a water chain of detector tank very similar to the ones that are developing for Lago so the final program that I will share with you is what we call the Lago University is that since we have detectors located in the university we have different experiments that can be conducted by students at different levels and we use this data from our detectors to introduce different techniques of that analysis or also from statistical analysis or the different type of techniques at different levels in the development of the students in the physics career for example in the left column you can see the very first introductory physics course of the physics career in Colombia that they did a similar analysis to this weather space the weather space phenomena and also for the particle physicists in the right you can see there the muon decay experiment that can be done by using our detector the data measured in our detector by measuring the time differences between pulses because some of the muons that go in through the tank didn't have enough energy to go through the tank and then decay inside the detector producing high energy electron that has enough energy to be detected also by the detector so by looking at this kind of event you can measure the muon decay time the lifetime of the muons so I am using that you can use in the different courses to look for instance different physics phenomena or things like that so as a conclusion we have an ultra-low baseline array of water chain detectors each one of these detectors can be considered as a node of our distributed extended cosmic rays observatory which is located from the south of Mexico up to in the near future to Antarctica we measure we have high and low altitude sites in the N and D range and we measure with the stream to tail the background radiation and we use this background radiation to look for space weather phenomena and high energy phenomena and we develop also in Latin America new smart water chain detectors that produce some of the analysis of the data on board of the same water chain detector and we also put environmental stations that control the water chain acquisition and also that produce data that could be useful for other communities and we develop a full simulation chain but I think that the most important thing of Lago is that we also produce local and regional integration of universities and citizens and science initiative and we are a very active community for example in this next ICRC we will present 10 different presentations for the things that we are doing in Latin America and we have funding from different countries at different Latin America countries and also we are instead of have a single and high fund we produce small projects to be funded by different according to the possibilities of the different Latin American countries so this is also an invitation for all of you to stay tuned with us and to showing to our effort to develop high energy and astroparticle physics in Latin America thank you very much for your attention Thank you very much, very nice talk and very interesting project so congratulations and now it's time for questions so first of all I would like to give a sign for people participating in the Hangouts so if any of you want to participate like the moment okay maybe we can move to we have a question here from Roberto please go ahead so I mean I wrote the question in the Q&A but anyway I'm better to ask it in life so one of the first question is how much is the cost of each of these detectors? well the detectors are cheap and are cheaper compared with other particle detectors depending on the local customs and the local taxes the expensive part is of course the photomultiplier tube which is about $2,500 but this is the price in the United States and you have to import to Latin America and it could reach up to $4,000 or even $5,000 for the PMT and then you need only $1,000 extra to the other parts of the detector so with up to $5,000 or even $6,000 you could have one of these detectors working in not more than one week so it is very cheap and it is very fast to be constructed the detector we have to provide Lago is providing to the new institutions the acquisition electronics not the FPGA or the Raspberry Pi which are very cheap and also are accessible in almost all the world but the electronics, the acquisition electronics that we developed is provided by Lago to the new institutions that are showing I think and just a small step and the maintenance of the detector is I guess it's very cheap I mean it's like mounted a little bit there well the idea is that once you start to measure you don't have to touch your detector anymore so in the ideal we have some detectors that we didn't touch in more than four years so the maintenance is mainly oriented to keep the data flowing so it is usually a problem of the network more than a maintenance of the detector once the detector is built and it's calibrated and starts the normal operation the idea is that you have not to touch the detector anymore this is the ideal case okay thank you also we have another question from Dimitrius hello and thank you for the nice talk my question is not related just to the physics but for the course are there any notes or is there anything available? sorry I didn't hear the first part of the question could you repeat it? if there is a kind of website or telematics, slides or something like that in which he could check for the courses ah okay yes we have a Lagoproject.org is our site and we develop a course for example to calculate the flux using simulations at each one of our sites it's a technique that we develop for Lago and it is available in YouTube and the slides are in the page you can find that in the Lagoproject.org website and also we did three schools in Latin American for Lago oriented schools, the last one was in Quito and the slides and the topics of the school are available in the web I don't remember now if you have a link in our site but we could put a link in our website thank you I have a question also more related to the organization I see that there is no Chilean institution participating in the project and I don't know what are the minimum requirements for an institution to be part of Lago? well you don't have a strong requirement to be part of Lago the only thing that we are asking now is to present the project we have different projects that can be presented in different sites and if you need to build a detector you can start to show in Lago why there is no Chilean institution from Chile it's something that I don't know but we are of course open to the incorporation of new institutions in Latin American that could be very good for us to have as much as sites as possible so the only requirement is that you should need to get the funding to build the detector which is mainly the principal obstacle is to have the money to buy the photomultiplier tube which is not so much money in total you already talked about that but in total how much money for one of these in total and in total if there is no problem with the costumes or no problem with the taxes you should expect to spend more or less five hundred five thousand dollars for the complete I mean the FPGA costs more or less one hundred and fifty dollars the Raspberry Pi is fifty dollars the electronics, we put the electronics the acquisition electronics perhaps you could buy the components which are not more than two hundred dollars so the tank is a commercial tank it is five hundred dollars it is very cheap the only thing that is relatively expensive is the P&T which causes as I mentioned before two thousand and five hundred dollars more or less in the United States then you have to import to your country and one last question it's about the places to locate those instruments there is a minimum altitude or something like that no, no it depends on the physics that you want to do if you want to go to study extreme energy phenomena you have to go more than four thousand and five hundred meters more or less depending on the site but if you want to do spaceware phenomena there is no request for altitude the ideal altitude is more than five hundred meters and less than two thousand and five hundred meters to have a good development of the mules but you can go up to the sea level without any problems to do spaceware phenomena or other type of background radiation actually for example what we are doing in past in Colombia is to start building a detector in the university which is more easier than in the mountains and then once you got some experience in the construction and the operation of the detector then you can go and to deploy a detector in high altitude sites thank you for your answers so we have some more questions from Roberto Lineros Roberto you want to ask us questions yeah, another question is about how is the... how well is Lagos about cosmic rays discrimination I mean, how well it can manage people from gamma rays since it's just one time kind of I don't know our last study to discriminate this kind of phenomena of GRV from the background shows that only the very high energy component you can measure the... you are able to measure GRV but those GRVs which have at least 20 CEV of energy for our higher altitude sites you can discriminate only by looking by what we call the... we have blind analysis by looking to the excesses on the... on 5 milliseconds range I mean, perhaps these questions requires a bit more explanation let me explain when you have a proton shower or you have an iron shower or you have a gamma shower the duration of the shower is very short what we do in Chagaltaja is not to look for a single... a single shower but we look for excesses in the background flux at the level of 5 milliseconds so 5 milliseconds for a single shower is a century but you have... several photons coming from the GRV that produce several showers and these several showers will produce an enhancement in the flux of particles at ground level so this is our technique we didn't measure photon by photon or shower by shower but we measure, we look for excesses in the background flux at the level of 5 milliseconds and this is the blind analysis the other analysis which is the trigger analysis which is we... every time Fermi produce... Fermi or Swift or whatever Pro produce another in the... in the network of GRVs we look at our data by this... by this alert so we have two different analysis methods and I have two more questions and then for me... one is very specific like in the sense of if Lago also seems to measure the solar activities usually people use the neutron monitor so is it possible that Lago also use the same technique complementary technique or there is something more I mean, well... it's not so simple to have a neutron monitor next to the network well, we have a different... the neutron monitor are a really spectacular technique to measure space weather and have been used for the last, I don't know, 40, 50 years to measure this kind of phenomena the difference we could emulate the... the type of signals that have the neutron monitors in order that they measure the flux of secondary neutrons at ground level the specific look for neutrons for neutrons we measure... but those neutrons are originated in the cosmic in the cascades, the extensive air showers produced by the interaction of the... of a particle in the atmosphere so in some sense we do the same but not looking only for the neutrons which are very sensitive for this kind of measure but we look to all the particles present in the... all the charged particles present in the... in the detector in the showers, sorry and photons we have some probability to get a per creation inside the detector from a photon with more than 1.5 mega electron volt so in this kind you can measure with some probability dependent on the energy of the photon photons by per creation inside the detector so we could reproduce and we... I don't present it here but we publish some papers with things showing the comparison between our data and data from neutron monitors but there is also a difference and this is this band analysis because a neutron monitor is a counting rate and by using this pulse check discrimination technique we can measure a different band of energy and those are related with different type of particles so we could have some kind of... of... of the evolution of background radiation at different energy ranges at different energy levels you can have the distribution of particles at ground at different energy ranges and this is the difference with the neutron monitor Okay, thank you and then the last one I mean... is there a... it's a very nice question since the flux of particles that you can measure at altitude of commercial flight is so high there were no plans to to have a synergy with the flight and have some very small size detector and when? Well... of course you can... you can go with a water chain of tank inside an airplane because it is more or less one ton so it should be very expensive to carry this kind of detector but of course we are... for example in... in... in OSHE more of the people in Lago is also working in OSHE and the upgrade of OSHE the approved upgrade of OSHE is based in... in scintillators plastic scintillator strips so we are doing here in Bariloche a detector that use this kind of technology to measure the flux so that it is available to carry onboard the plane Thank you It was a very nice question There is another question in the chat I don't know if you are looking it is related with the sensitivity to horizontal neutrinos Yeah, this is a question from Mauricio so Mauricio Bustamante, if you want you can ask the question yourself Sure Hi Ok, yes, ok so my question was just as Piroje can see new tiles that come from the horizon or close to the horizon because of the large atmospheric path length can the Lago project do that or will be able to do that at some point? The answer is no because to measure a neutrino you have to... you need a large collected area which is like the OSHE the neutrino, the horizontal neutrino produce a footprint of particles at ground that are touching different detectors so you need a huge array of water chain or detectors particle detectors to measure an horizontal neutrino and also OSHE is located with the Andean range in the west part of the detector at the west of the detector, sorry so we can measure the neutrino produce also by the interaction of particles with the mountains that comes as a down neutrino from the mountains and you can measure that in the array you need a huge array you can do that with a single tank okay it was clear Can I ask a follow up question to that? Sure, of course so seen as you would need something bigger are there any plans to build a medium sized or large detector arrays at any of the Lago sites? Yes, we are we are in the research and development phase which to build 150 water chain of detectors covered in an area of 16 square kilometers in one of the Andean Paramos in Colombia this is the bigger array that we are planning at this point I think that the equatorial zone is very interesting because you can see both of the spheres at the same time and I don't know why it has been explored in the past but this is what we are doing this is a project that we start to we are in the first steps and actually these three small detectors working in a single triangular shape that we are building in Colombia is some kind of research and development phase for this huge detector because the major problem that we are facing besides the money which is also always is a problem but the major problem is related with the amount of data that our detector produce since you have more than 100 detectors to all this data by wirelessly not so easy so we are developing techniques based on standard protocols to co-chair the detectors and that can be used in the future for other technical applications not only for research and development basis okay thanks and maybe I should ask my last question then move on to Yuel maybe so for theorists like myself working either from Latin American institutions or from abroad are there any possibilities of contributing to Lago? yes we need that we need contribution from other sites and other people and for example like the incorporation of these people from Spain they plan to build a detector but they are helping us with the development of for example infrastructure to our simulations techniques so of course that we will be very glad to have help from other physicians or experimental physicists along the work next so I think now we have a question from Lima do you want to ask the question? alright can you hear me? yes okay fantastic so it's a quick question I was just wondering what are the main synergies with other experiments like what piece of information from some other experiment will be useful for you and what sort of information can you provide to other experiments well do you hear me? okay we use data from different experiments in order to calculate for example the many people measure the flux of primaries at the top of the atmosphere and this is what we use to perform our simulations the simulation which is something that is not directly related but we use the simulation technique and the high energy interaction models that our simulations use comes from people of the LHC that measure with very good detail and high quality the cross section of the different reactions that goes through the development of the cascade so astroparticle techniques astroparticle physics is some kind of showing effort from people of astrophysics and cosmology and from particle physics so we directly or indirectly use a lot of data from different experiments for the related with Lago we use as I mentioned data from Fermi or data from Swift or from other boards that measure GRB as a trigger for our analysis and also to improve the simulations by using for example the expected flux of photons or the spectrum of photons present during the GRB or also we compare our data from the neutron monitor for the space weather to look at differences there and from the data that we could produce or we could give to other communities beyond the data that we directly produce as I mentioned atmospheric or environmental data we could share we could give information about the high energy component of the GRB or we could measure with extreme detail the background radiation at the ground level which could be important for people working I don't know in space weather as I mentioned before or even in the interaction of matter of radiation with matter our data when we have this data flowing in real time it will be used also for forecasting of space weather phenomena so I think that we could have a big impact in the in this kind of physics areas also and let me finish this question also the distribution of our detectors is longitudinal and non-latitudinal I mean we are more or less in the same in the same longitude and we are developing across latitude in the earth so we are all the detectors are measuring the sky more or less at the same time so now we are looking in our data we are starting to look for repetitive sources by using the analysis in our data so I think that we could give this kind of data to other analysis and also one of our objectives is to share all the data once it is finished the analysis so we will put a real time monitor of background radiation at each one of our sites and that could be told a lot from our site this is one of our objectives for this year and the next year fantastic many thanks you're welcome I have another question it's related to cpa I don't know if Lagro will can provide some information that can be useful for cta cases in South America well cta is a gamma astronomy and they did measure in a photo by photo basis or in a particle by particle basis so of course the environmental data that Lagro is producing and also the background rate data Lagro is producing could be useful for some other particle experiments but I don't know if cta for example the the rate of the background rate of particles at ground level could be useful for example for cta but this is very local measurement so it will depend on where cta will be located in the future to know if we could improve the sensitivity also what we this is this is an idea that but some of we had some time ago is to to combine the measurements from cta by putting some kind of water channel detectors at the cta side but I don't know this is something that we will evaluate in the future with people from cta okay are there other questions? no I don't see any then I think it's time to thank Anand again for a very nice and informative presentation thank you Anand I would like to thank you to the organizers of these Latin American webinar seminars I think that we are doing a lot of things here in Latin America not Lago only Latin American people and Latin American physicists and this is an excellent opportunity to share this with all the community thank you for this effort and I know that producing these kind of things is difficult so thank you very much for the organization of these webinars thank you thank you well actually you did the hardest job so you gave the top thank you for joining us and well thank you everyone thank you for watching and we hope to meet you again whenever we have the next webinar Latin American webinars on physics thank you bye bye