 the energy you from the EAP chair and that's the pronounced EAP but it might be pronounced EAP and we're going to find out what that stands for. We always expand our acronyms here. That's representative Nicole Lohan. She's the EAP chair from the state legislature and Marco Mangelstorff, my co-host and this is Think Tech and it's you know with the energy 808, the cutting edge, okay. Welcome to the show you guys. Aloha, thanks for having me. Thank you Jay. Aloha. Happy Monday to both of you. Thank you. Marco, it falls on you to introduce our guest in a more robust way than I did and define the acronym EAP and also can you give us the scope of our discussion today? Sure. Well first of all thank you so much Jay for us reconvening as we have been doing over the years and thank you. Thank you so much Nicole for joining us today. It's it's always a pleasure to connect with you and yeah Nicole has been the chair of the state house environment excuse me energy and environmental protection committee aka EAP for how long has it been going on now? It's been four years and four years before that I think. So you know Nicole brings a great wealth of insight and knowledge and being in the trenches there and in my view one of the legislature's champions of which we are kind of short of these days in my opinion shortage of true champions who are fighting the good fight and trying to pursue a energy environment agenda that seems to be from my perspective such a hard slog sometimes and hard to see all the much substantive progress being made so thank you so much for giving me with us Nicole and all that you are doing there in your position of EAP chair. Thanks happy to be here. It's not really EAP at all is it can you give us the right pronunciation Nicole? Well the committee is called the Committee on Energy and Environmental Protection but it is referred to as EAP. Oh that is what people say. Okay well now we got that straightened out I feel a lot better about my initial pronunciation. You could say EAP. Okay so how was the session this year Nicole how do you characterize it you know it's an election year and that somehow changes the chemistry but can you give us a look back and how you feel about what happened? Sure I feel like overall it was a really successful and productive session in many regards but also in terms of the bills that we passed out of my committee and I'll stick to I guess talking about the energy specifically energy related things although the committee jurisdiction also covers issues like plastic waste and wastewater and things like that. We passed a couple of bills that have been multi-year efforts so it was exciting to get those through and clear that. The first one I'll mention is House Bill 2089 and this bill fixed the formula that's used to calculate the renewable portfolio standard so that it will kind of close a loophole that allowed the accounting to not be fully accurate so that it was calculated as a percent of sales as opposed to generation and this fix has been you know a bill that's been introduced probably five years in a row maybe more that finally passed through this year so that is of increasing importance as we move forward in this state with adopting more renewable energy that kind of discrepancy between the two numbers becomes greater and greater. We passed House Bill 1801 and this is the state facilities energy efficiency bill that mandates for state facilities over 10,000 square feet to implement cost effective energy efficiency measures and then this bill also directs that for new construction it be designed in advance to the degree that it's feasible to be energy efficient and water efficient and to maximize energy generation as well where that's possible so you know it kind of adding that language into the law creates a little more incentive to think about the long-term benefits of building these things in a front even when they cost a little more front but actually save money over the long term and then we also passed House Bill 1800 this establishes kind of near-term decarbonization goals so the state has a 2045 goal for a net zero economy or net negative economy but to keep us moving forward and keep real action happening I think we need some kind of goal before 2045 so what we put in law was 50% by 2030 over 2005 levels and this is in line with the Paris Agreement and the Biden administration and then this bill also funds planning process to look at how we will accomplish this decarbonization effort you know not only through renewable energy which is sort of viewed as the easier piece of it but also things like transportation, land use, aviation which is part of the challenging part of transportation I would say and also looks at things like energy, equity and environmental justice. On that note we passed a couple resolutions that will direct the PUC to lead efforts to establish a LIHEAP program and to integrate energy equity throughout their work and I don't want to talk for too long I want to let you guys ask some questions we also passed a bill to just update the already existing it's been existing for a couple years now electric vehicle rebate program so that adds some flexibility to the program so that we're not being redundant with what's being provided for with the newly available federal funding it made sure the program continues to be funded and expands the you know the goal has been in those publicly accessible commercial multi-unit dwellings getting chargers in those areas and this kind of expands the ability for Hawaii Energy and the PUC to look at the market and say what is the need and be able to design the program around what they see as are the needs the needs are instead of the statute being so prescriptive and then we also reinstated a biofuels tax credit that had expired as well as passed a couple bills a couple senate bills that look at renewable hydrogen and how we can continue that conversation and furthering those efforts so one first study and a second one for rebate program that's somewhat similar to similar in structure to our electric vehicle charging system rebate yeah there's a number of there's bills that didn't pass and things I think we'll come back to in the next session but I'll pause there in case there's no questions that you guys have okay let me only say that you know you know Marco is very complimentary to our guests and especially to you Nicole but I would like to say that you're awesome that's what I would like to say I mean I say that Marco may I say that I'm saying that that's what I'm saying okay um Nicole you know um some people think in the world today that the most important story is the most existential threat and climate change is the most existential threat if you walked around Manoa campus and visited the you know the journalism program pool up there and they would all tell you that the most important story for all of us is the most existential threat and that's climate change so and you're a very important person as the chair of the EEP committee in Hawaii State let's we have a reputation for being ahead of the game on this we have our you know target dates and all that and we understand to some extent you know what it means to contribute to the global effort but query this are we moving fast enough you know these bunch of bills we've talked about these bunch of achievements here in 2022 are they as fast as you would like are we are we playing our proper role in the global effort uh thanks it's a good question um I think no we're never moving fast enough because the threat of climate is so imminent and it's sort of like we're already have passed these milestones by which had had the humanity been capable of reducing emissions we could have you know kept global warming below a certain amount and that it's it's just so challenging I mean but you know on the other hand I think that we are moving um faster than a lot of other states we're kind of you know operating I think I really am one of those people that tries to push the boundaries a lot of people say oh it's impossible and you know I think the the thing that we have to remember is the threat of climate change is imminent and getting to decarbonization is an incredible challenge but it's one that we have no choice but to try to meet um but there are real world challenges so there's real world challenges like uh and how quickly things can move just for one thing and how quickly you can build an energy project or shift an entire economy these are like um these are like fast moving trains with a lot of momentum that don't change course easily and so uh I think why he really has been being an example and leading the charge in terms of action at the state level and at the same time no uh it doesn't seem like like anything could ever be fast enough or possible to you know stem the flow of greenhouse gas emissions immediately I mean that would be in terms of mitigating climate change you know the the best possible scenario so what would obviously not possible well aside from you know the real world politic of it um if I made you I made you queen I made you queen and I gave you you know authoritarian power over all of this without you know any real world political limitation um what would you do I mean and let's assume you know like in don't look up the movie it was such a good movie uh and you know we were facing a threat that to destroy humanity and you know in the near or intermediate term somehow and see all all the things that are happening at climate change right now um if I made you queen what would you do I'd rather have a magic wand than a crown okay magic wand all right okay um but then no then we're getting out I mean I think both are equally like unrealistic so I mean uh I would yeah I mean I guess I guess that's a tough question I don't I don't know if it's like useful to even attempt to answer it I mean obviously I would like to see emissions you know not just from Hawaii but globally um reduce a lot more quickly and you know all of this to happen in an equitable kind of way that was in sync with community and kept our economy moving forward you know of course it's complete um I idealized you but like uh I guess if there's well if there's things that seem possible I mean I do sometimes get frustrated I think with um um like like how I think there's some special interest in Hawaii that we could that really have an outsized influence and that can slow us down so if we're thinking about things more in the realm of things that are possible to change in the near term to help us get more action I mean I think that that it's getting everyone to really take this threat of climate seriously um and and you know move past some of those barriers yeah okay well maybe maybe it'll take some dramatic natural event to make us more serious who knows and that may happen while you're the chair who but let me let me uh go to one other point I wanted to make or ask you about and that is a in in the um eat committee you have energy and environment what what's the connection how do you see the connection between the two are they the same thing are they different things which one is in in the highest priority oh I mean I think they're kind of completely intertwined and especially when you talk about climate change because the the impacts of climate change in the way that we you know can be more resilient is by protecting our natural resources so you know issues like watershed protection is critical as changing climate sort of threatens um you know watersheds native species and changes the the patterns of rainfall etc like for one example plastic waste is something I've worked on a lot this year and I think there's sort of increased there was some report that came out with with coal on the decline it's like plastics are set to overtake coal as a source of greenhouse gas emissions by by 2030 you know in addition to that they include all kinds of toxic chemicals that end up in our environment and there they pollute the oceans and you know cause a lot of other kind of damage you know same with wastewater for example another thing that I've worked on it's like we have too many cesspools in the state that's really damaging to our reef recent or tremendous threat from climate change and coral bleaching events and you know warming ocean temperatures and so the more that we can address all these other environmental problems that compound each other the you know best chance we have of preserving these resources a huge number of issues you know huge other scientific issues and social issues political issues be whiz I hope you sleep well at night nicole these are not the questions I expected to answer um not every night but yeah you know like everybody else you know about about halfway through the show I always turn into a pumpkin and I invite marco to ask you questions some people say I am a pumpkin through the show but at this point I feel like it's time to ask marco to ask you some questions marco you know this witness is yours thank you counselor so I have a I have a preamble before the the judge and jury before I asked the question uh I received an email from the state energy office about I'm gonna say five or six weeks ago and it was a pretty nondescript email to the point that I don't even remember exactly what it said but it got me thinking about gee how much progress have we made here in the state of Hawaii and getting off this dangerous very vulnerable dependence that we've had for decades decades on imported oil and I decided to do some digging and what I found in my digging was a rather dismaying and disturbing to me and I'll share this with you so back in 1960 the state was dependent on oil for 99.7 percent of all its energy needs you know pretty darn close to 100 percent 99.7 and I scrolled forward to 1993 and lo and behold 1993 that 99.7 had dropped to about 86 percent excuse me 84 percent 84 percent of the state's energy total energy consumption based on oil oh progress being made right and then I brought us up to date or brought myself up to date in terms of the most recent data I could find which was 2019 I couldn't find anything for 2020 let alone 2021 but for 2019 the total the percentage of energy consumption in the state of Hawaii which includes transportation power generation anything in between 2019 it was 86 percent so recall that 1993 was 84 percent 2019 is 86 percent now we're 2022 and we're probably pretty darn close to the 85 86 percent so I've taken something of a dive over the years in terms of well what kind of support is the state given renewable energy you can find evidence of a a solar tax credit going back to when I graduated high school guys in 1976 a long time ago I attended my first energy conference so one of my first energy conference at the Sheraton December 1980 42 go down 42 years ago so with that kind of long monologue I'll close by saying making a statement asking a question I mean clearly whatever we're doing Nicole and Jay and others whatever we're doing while laudatory to some extent is clearly woefully inadequate woefully deficient and now we're seeing the pain we collectively are seeing the pain of record high utility prices with a 50 cent or so kilowatt hour cost here on this island 55 I believe actually 60 plus percent 60 plus cents a kilowatt hour for small commercial on Molokai high prices of pump so whatever progress we've made not to disc the progress or the players who've toiled away and the champions have toiled away over the decades but we're clearly we've got to do something different and I'm not saying I have the answers in terms of what to do differently but I guess my question to you Nicole is you know aside from from a magic wand or a royal title I mean realistically if not if not getting getting more more beyond realism I mean what else can we do in this state to truly make more of a rapid dent on this dangerous ongoing dependence on fuel the good fuel that's coming from great great distances which puts us in a very vulnerable position always has we still are um yeah absolutely I mean I think it's it's important to remember that the big picture doesn't include just our power generation right it's also transportation and transportation is you know larger and larger percent of all that oil that we import um because you know as we transition to renewable energy um yeah I mean I think it's a huge concern there's a note there's it it's uh there's a number of things and these are all kind of in statute for example when the public utilities commission is considering whether to approve a project they have to look at affordability reliability um reliance on import and greenhouse gas emissions like all of the above and so it's it's kind of about balancing all of those things um we have projects in the pipeline now that you know are are still just a sliver of you know where we need to go to reduce that 86 figure that you cited um some of which have been delayed by supply chain issues that we've had um is there a way to make these go faster I mean that is that's a good question I I think it's not without a lot of pushback I mean it's projects take time you know Hawaii is kind of notoriously takes longer than a lot of other states but you know if we try to I think there's ways that we can streamline and push stuff forward to move quicker but you can't just snap your fingers and have a new you know a whole new renewable power plant built overnight so I think in terms of power generation these things do take time um I think I think there's two things to consider on that Nicole one is yes they take time and you know think tech has examined um you know permitting for example um and obstacles to projects that they're they're legion uh in this state and it takes decades sometimes to get to get permit not only on energy and environmental projects but all projects um and on energy specifically you know think of all of the contensions and controversies over the past few years where activists have not you know it's interesting usually you expect activists will advance clean energy but in so many of our controversy the activists are opposing clean energy I agree with you and it's frustrating I think for everybody and people need to understand I mean you can't have both or always get everything you want and at the same time I think if you sort of took more drastic measures and just ignored the community pushback you just create further problems down the road so there's there's repercussions for doing that also and so you know you have you as much as we'd like to just you know make things go faster and push them through faster and you know take some of the process out of it there's there's you know potentially repercussions for doing that too and that well yeah you have two things working one is that you know culturally the state doesn't move fast and and it's you know it's a consensus model if you will uh any any group can stop any project they work at it but the other thing is and you referred to this earlier it's the it's the constituencies it's the public it's public opinion and public public view of this and it strikes me and I'm interested in your thoughts you know the legislature the government is a creature of public opinion of political expression of public opinion and I think we we know do we not that the public in this state does not recognize the exigencies of climate change it does not recognize the exigencies of moving ahead and so you and everybody in the legislature is you know is captive to that politically and I and I wonder what we can do to change public opinion so everybody has a magic wand yeah I mean these are the big really difficult multifaceted questions that nobody has the right there's no you know easy answer to um like to Marco's question also and this getting back to more specific things I think that you know for example geothermal is an incredible opportunity for the state but again it will take time because there's a lot of community sentiment and pushback that has to be worked through you know and people are struggling with you know not being able to make ends meet not being able to pay rent not being able to find a place to rent when their landlords as they're moved they're selling the house so um to expect them to you know make climate change climate action like a priority is is that's unlikely but I do think that's sometimes that that's kind of a line or a trope that gets used even when certain things that we do um you know certain kind of climate related bills I think in the long term are are geared towards environmental justice and equity and and having a better outcome for everyone and yet it's like we always get pushback from building industry oh this is gonna you know changing building codes it's gonna cost too much money and we have a this uh uh cost of living crisis in Hawaii so we can't do that you know and we and those kind of they kind of successfully can shut things um down based on you know I think facts that are debatable so that that is frustrating and I think you know it's also while we have these massive challenges with cost of living at the same time it's gonna become more and more real that we cannot ignore this reality of um of climate change and I think while who knows where US politics will go nationally that that increasingly the rest of the globe is reacting in other ways too and there will be pressures from that as well and as we know as of uh what ten or so days ago uh Leo Asuncion has taken over for Jay Griffin and it's gonna be a new commission with Leo's chair with Naomi as the new commissioner and of course any Potter so my question to you is Nicole uh if you had some some advice some guidance for for Leo as chair in terms of what he should prioritize what do you think he should prioritize moving forward uh during his his chair uh chairmanship of the public utilities commission what would you what would you offer to him um I mean I think the thing that the um public utilities commission should be prioritizing is ratepayers and consumers and you know that should always be at the forefront of what is in what's in their best interest in terms of well at least regarding energy you know reliability and affordability and all of those things and um I think the commission functions best when it's not political and when it's really being driven by technical expertise and um kind of an impartial weighing of the of the facts um that can still you know it's impossible for things not to sort of you know different people have different views of the world and that that weighs into it as well but I think just remembering the um the ratepayers at the end of the day who who have to pay these electric bills I think that is um that is what the PUC is there for right to regulate a monopoly that otherwise what could not be trusted to act in the best interests of the people of Hawaii so the people of Hawaii that should be put first well which to in my opinion to the credit of the public utilities commission under Jay Griffin with the performance-based regulation being one of the very first in the country in fact there was a great piece in the utility dive last week uh looking at Hawaii's implementation the first in the country as deep as we've as deep as has been done so setting the setting the standard in a sense for others to follow suit on the mainland so I think PBR is really important and you know I think under Jay and Jenny and Leo that there was a definitely a high priority on the value and the importance of what you just said so I cannot cannot imagine that won't continue under under Leo especially like I said with high energy prices so yeah we're actually going to have Leo on in a couple weeks so it'll be very interesting to here get his take as well. Nicole what would you leave with the public on an on energy environment and where we are? um yeah I mean I think that Hawaii both in terms of climate policy and energy policy has been a real leader and that push for that has come from the legislature um and that hasn't been without challenges uh but I think that that the end result of it has been you know that we're moving in the right direction and we have at least in terms I mean we are meeting our rps schools and are on track to exceed them um and uh and of course the the um war in Europe is causing energy prices to go up but we were seeing a trend in the opposite direction prior to that and that just really cameras home the importance of not being you know reliant on such a large percent of our energy being imported into the state that we need to rely more on local resources. Okay Marco it's time for you to thank Nicole. Thank you Nicole. Thank you for joining us and the time always goes by so two doing quickly and there's a still a number of things on my wish list to ask you but that's uh a great reason to have you back on the show again soon I hope so please thank you. Thank you Marco. Thank you. Thank you Nicole. Part two of our uh technical specific questions and not not if you had a magic wand. Don't be surprised if it happens again Nicole. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you both. Aloha. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn and donate to us at thinktecawaii.com. Mahalo.