 We are very vulnerable in Europe. For some of these materials we are depending quasi fully of other countries. More than 80% of our earths are coming from China. If we translate that to Europe, that would mean that we need 35 times as much lithium as today. That's an enormous increase. Electrical mobility stands for about 60% of the total demand of these metals for the energy. If we really want to go fast, we have to pay a price for that. We really have to do all things together today. Hello everyone and welcome to the Circular Metabolism Podcast, the bi-weekly meeting where we have in-depth discussions with researchers, policymakers and practitioners, to better understand the metabolism of our societies or in other words, their resource use and pollution emissions and how to reduce them in a systemic, socially just and context-specific way. Today I'm very pleased to share a two-part episode on exploring the resource use and climate impact of mobility. In fact, mobility is responsible for a very large share of our CO2 emissions, energy use and material use, both for the construction of vehicles and their associated infrastructure like roads. This two-part episode is a collaboration with Urban Mobility Explained, UMX, a YouTube channel powered by EIT Urban Mobility. In fact, I would recommend you go check out their YouTube channel as every week they publish videos covering quite broad environmental and social impacts of mobility and solutions from cities around Europe. To explore the resource use impacts of mobility, I'm glad to welcome Carl Van Acker. Carl is Professor in Sustainable Materials Management at KU Leuven. His research developed strategies to realize the circular economy and develop sustainability assessments of material life cycles including mobility. With all that being said, Carl, welcome to the podcast. Thank you, Elstide. Let's situate our discussion into two main reports. I think this one, the one that you did, Metals for Clean Energy, Pathways to Solving Europe's Raw Material Challenge. This was carried out by you and your colleagues for Eurometo, if I understand correctly. What was the rationale? What were they looking for? What did you need to bring forward with this report, right? Of course, there is a concern of supply of metals. So the transition towards clean energy demands a lot of metals that are a bit more exotic and then the commodities we are used to, such as the lithium, the cobalt, but also the rare earth metals and so forth. And the question actually was, where is Europe situated in that demand for metals for the clean energy? Can we meet that demand in Europe and how could we be able? So the report was discussing first of all, what will be the demand? How will it evolve in the coming years? And then we looked at, yeah, what is the supply and that is corresponding to that? Can we say something about how that will evolve in the future? And where are the gaps, of course, since that's the whole thing. And if there are gaps, how can we cope with them? What should we do? And you can do different things. No, actually jump a little bit to the main conclusions. But what you can do is open new mines, extend the mining and especially in Europe, we could look at more mining in Europe. We can also try to import more and to have very good relations with African countries and other countries that are suppliers of the resources for these metals. So that's more the geopolitical game. And for that, we also need a lot of infrastructure in Europe. But of course, we can also try to recycle much more. And our study was also looking at that. So when can recycling deliver a decent amount of these resources that we need? And, yeah, at last, we also have to look at a circular economy. Can circular economy strategies, can they reduce the demand actually for these metals? So that's a bit the context. We are very vulnerable in Europe. We all know that we are depending for some of these materials. We are depending quasi fully of other countries for their earths. That's very obvious and more than 80% of our earths are coming from China. For Lithium, that's also obvious. Most of Lithium is coming from South American countries today. But also for commodities that we also will need, such as nickel. Also there, we see that we depend a lot of again from China, but more and more also from Indonesia. So geopolitics are very important there. And certainly today, with all the crisis and the COVID and the Ukraine war and so forth. That's important that in Europe we get a position that is a bit more autonomous, let's say. And that's also the reason why the critical raw materials act has been or will be voted to make sure that our economy can rely on a steady supply of these metals. Yeah, I think it's important to, as you mentioned, you underlined. So there is the geopolitical side, but there is also the decarbonization side. So Europe is now pushing very fast, trying to, well, reduce the fossil fuel dependency and perhaps push it to another dependency, the one of metals that we're going to see. Exactly, yeah. However, there is a catch, of course, the clean energy technologies, including electric vehicles, photovoltaic panels, wind turbines, and also the electrification of our mix, the grids and all of this will require a lot more metals than before. For the same thing, they will require more elements, right? Perhaps could we give a brief reminder of what is the situation today of metal use and what do you think is going to happen later? So for instance, I think we extract 100 gigatons per year, total materials, and globally, exactly, not only Europe, Europe must be a fraction like 10, I don't know how much it must be, but we extract around 2 gigatons of steel out of this 1.8 or something like that. And then we go to, we find the stand, 100 million tons of aluminum and copper and nickel and stuff like that. And then the rest of these rare or exotic metals, it's just around 100 kilotons per year or something like that. How do you see this mix today and what do you think is going to happen tomorrow? First of all, you named the different applications or the different things we need for the clean energy transition. But I really wanted to stress here, especially for this podcast, that for this transition towards electrical mobility, that stands for about 60% of the total demand of these transition metals for the energy transition. So solar panels and things like that are important as well. But the biggest share is for electrical mobility. So we have to be aware of that. And that's in Europe or also globally? Globally. Yeah, that's globally. Yeah, concerning the metals, we have to actually discern two types of materials. You have the metals that are very specific for this energy transition. And lithium is one of them. There we see that the increase in demand is really enormous. So globally, the increase for the energy transition of demand for lithium is 21 times the demand in 2020 by 2050. 21 times globally. If you look at it, if it translates into Europe, where things are expected to evolve a bit faster and it's also very much stimulated by the European Commission to go faster, that would mean that we need 35 times as much lithium as today. So that's an enormous increase. In 30 years. Yeah, in 30 years only. So yeah, you really can expect that there are some difficulties there. You have to combine all these different strategies. We have to look where we can find them in Europe. And if we can open mines for them in Europe, if we can increase also the supply from Chile and Argentina. The other type of metals that we need are more the commodities. And let's take nickel, that's a commodity. Yes, there is in absolute terms, there is a real increase of the demand for them. But on top of what is already used for nickel. And actually nickel is mainly used in stainless steel. So the amounts of stainless steel for construction are so high that it's not a ripple. But yeah, it's not the 350% as we had for lithium needed. So it's an increase of an annual increase of about 3% something. But the amounts of nickel that are mined are already large. So in absolute terms again, it's still a huge amount. So we still need to open new mines. That means that mainly Indonesia is doing that. So there are two different things to discern the lithium where we really can find solutions as opening mines in Europe, starting with recycling it's better and so forth. And the commodities such as nickel where we could try to do more in Europe. But we will still mainly depend on the other countries of origin. Except maybe if there would be some seabed mining for example. Then we could also increase the supply of nickel. But that's also for the further future and it's not for tomorrow. Will that increase a lot this 100 gigaton as you mentioned? I don't believe that. In the total amount of materials more than 50% is used for construction. So that will not change. But we need these specific metals. That's the point. We need these specific metals for the energy transition. So we really depend on them. We cannot do anything without them. Although there are also shifts and we have to understand that scientific research is ongoing. Take for example the batteries for cars. The composition of batteries is changing all the time. One of the big issues for batteries until today is or maybe I should say was cobbled. Yeah where you know cobbled is for a large part coming from the eastern Congo region. The circumstances of mining are not that good there. It's also an unstable region. That's a real problem. It's also very polluting. It has a high footprint as well. But what we see is that the composition of these batteries is changing such that less and less cobbled is needed per battery. Of course we need more batteries. So the nickel manganese cobbled composition manganese and cobbled composition is gradually going down. What we also see is that there is a real trend towards more lithium iron phosphate batteries where then the nickel and the cobbled is not in anymore. So we have to realize that what we see today that's very very difficult to sustain, to cope with these supply demands. But another aspect is that materials innovations also are giving us solutions. So it's also something to take into account. Of course yeah we're gonna see we can perhaps also discuss in the in the future how you know different innovation over time can they arrive at the right time or you know enough in advance to cope with some issues. We talked about it just before but perhaps we can underline here. It's the clean energy technologies are very hungry in metals right and metals other than still. So I had here two examples from the IEA one of the electric car and one of the power generations. You probably have seen you know these how I think it's the conventional car requires like 50 kilograms of metals per vehicle whereas the electric one is 200 kilograms. Of course if we exclude still right because that completely the body is not included. Which I think it's a bit of a weird way to to compare it but in any case and then the same thing with power generation for for one megawatt produced you need approximately 16 000 of 16 000 kilograms of metals whereas for a plant of coal or natural gases two or one thousand kilograms per megawatt. So there is still a lot of metals included for clean energy but I think we need to underline that some things are missing so we're not calling about we're not talking about still we're not talking about concrete in all of these so that will radically change of course the image and of course you know by having a clean energy you don't consume the fossil fuels that are also extracted right so can you nuance a bit these numbers that always that are very you know in the in the news saying that clean energies consume more metals than others can we nuance this the story or this graph that's true so in the production of this car we indeed need more metals we can't deny that but as you said in the use phase of the car that's a different story of course so we don't consume anymore the fossil oil so we don't have to drill anymore for them for the energy plants there are so a lot of energy plants working on coal for example yeah by going towards renewable energy we have to mine these metals but we close the coal mines don't forget that and yeah there are less mines needed for these metals and then there are coal mines needed for the energy production in that sense of course it is nuanced another thing that that we have to realize is that if you have an internal combustion engine with fossil fuel you consume that fuel once so you extract it from the earth you only use it once and it's gone extremely linear economy right for the metals what and we have done simulations on that yeah for the metals there will be an enormous demand the coming 10 20 even 30 years but if you set up the right recycling systems we can keep a lot of these not 100 i know but we can keep a lot of these metals into the system so by mining once these metals we can keep them very long time and so they are not just consumed once but they are consumed for for a very long lifetime and that's that's the main difference i think between yeah these these metals that are no mines and the fossil fuels so yeah i really think in that sense we have to nuance that story yeah but of course people are only looking at the first years yes and even in our simulations we even see that if we want to take off electrical vehicle production to take off that at a high speed as the commission wants that it will be even a peak in greenhouse gas emissions of course since you have to produce them yeah but that's only a short peak of some years and we have to go through that if we want to accelerate this this transition yeah it seems like a weird trade-off to yeah to go uphill in order to yeah and also there is another small thing that we could discuss about which is efficiency gains as well with electrification with electrical mobility and many of these the the efficiency is much much higher than their counterpart their fossil fuel counterpart no yeah they are only a side remark with that so the weight of cars is also a bit increasing with these batteries and and and so forth but again there are more materials innovations and the weight is even more increasing since we want more comfort at the size of the cars is also increasing and so forth but therefore I'm really bleeding that yeah car manufacturers are really working on light weighting of their cars going to body in white in composite materials for example doing eco design using additive manufacturing so that that certain components can be hollow and things like that so there still is an enormous range possible an improvement possible since it's it's still very inefficient to transport 80 kilograms of course for for a person with a car of 1200 kilograms or more and that that is the main inefficiency I would say you're right yeah yeah of course I mean this is for personal mobility right yeah that's for personal mobility okay we have some context now about clean energies that are metal hungry that we briefly discussed about the projections of metal perhaps we can we give some elements I see them there on the corner you have the IEA so the international energy agency projections and there are two scenarios over there there is the sustainable development scenario which is more of a plausible path to achieve the 1.5 degree and there is the stated policies scenario so these are quite different and they both say that we're going to require a different amount of metals for this transition can you tell us what these two graphs underline and perhaps what is you mentioned 60 percent that was mobility in this metal consumption of this transition right yes yes yes well for the stated policies that's the baseline that we used for that report and that's what's on the table today by governmental agencies and that's actually not enough to reach the net zero emission goal in 2050 so there you should look at the sustainable development scenario if you want to follow that scenario you have to accelerate you have to accelerate actually the transition so then you need on the short term you need more of these these metals but the general principle is the more urgent things become or the more you could also say the more impatient you are to install renewable energy, electrical, mobility and so forth the more of these metals you need the coming years and so in the projections we made we saw that for a bunch of metals such as lithium, nickel, derailleur, cobalt it will become difficult even in these stated policies scenario it will become difficult to to fill up the gap between these demands and the supply that there is today but if you want to go to sustainable development goal scenario that it even becomes yeah almost impossible to fill up that gap the coming 10 years that's important part the coming 10 years seven now yeah since afterwards in our projections we are quite optimistic afterwards new mines are opened recycling systems should be already in place for the lithium for example we are convinced that from the lithium in cars we can by 2040 we can recycle more than 70 percent even 77 77 percent so that feels in already a good part of the demand for new lithium on top of that in 20 30 years we can expect that we are shifting from a new demand for these metals for all these new products to a replacement demand for replacing end of life so all these things make and that we actually can be quite optimistic towards the the longer future 2040 2050 but the problem is now of course and again if we really want to go fast yeah we have to pay to pay a price for that and if you want to get to go fast we really have to do yeah all things together today we have to open your minds we have to have the good processing facilities we have to import a lot and have good contacts of course and we have to start recycling the recycling will not deliver a lot of these materials today but if you want them within 10-15 years we have to start today already and so all these things together we have to do that today and why not try to have some other circular economy strategies as well already today yeah such as more sharing you could also call light rating of cars strategies since if you have lighter cars you need lighter you only need lighter motors and and and so forth and so it also has an impact on the demand of the metals yeah so all these things together I have to start today we need that for accelerating this transition to two comments on this I think it's important to first of all when we see the the amount of metals they seem quite small so we talk about 45 or 75 megatons so they seem relatively small right but as you mentioned time is of essence right and over there there is sorry there is a small parenthesis of methodological jargon let's say so we use a lot the terms of stocks and flows right so in the planet there might be enough materials as you say to mine them on the long run so we have enough stock but the flow is the problem we cannot extract as fast in one year I don't know how much it is three 35 times more lithium right I mean from one from one day to another we need the infrastructure in order to build an infrastructure it takes you years and years and years so there is this stock flow problem and the second stock flow problem is as you mentioned if we build electric vehicles or if we make a photovoltaic panels etc etc we're gonna build a stock from which we can recycle yeah but today there is in some cases not enough stock in order to recycle so there is this there is not enough outflow exactly so there I think it's quite important to to to remind these two elements there is stock in both cases so in terms of anthropogenic stock but also geogenic stock yeah but it's the speeds that is going to be a difficult part no exactly and for the for the geological stock the the lithosphere stock let's call it for most metals there is enough but indeed time is is important since yeah opening mines yeah that's an enormous investment in money but also in in time in labor that's not that easy we also have to realize and that's maybe another point of course that new mines often are in more ecological vulnerable regions if you look at stocks for rare earths for example in europe yeah more in the northern regions or in in greenland even if you look to what is happening today with the nickel so I said already that Indonesia is becoming bigger and bigger a supplier of nickel yeah but the conditions are not that ideal deforestation etc etc right yeah deforestation there is a lot of of these mines near the oceans and polluted water is also dumped in the oceans and things like that so there are problems with regard to the environmental side as well with that and so yeah also there it might be good to to to be not too impatient so that that's that's good environmental measures can be installed and and are also checked and imposed so when I said you have to be to make good friends to import metals can also be critical on that of course it should be done in a environmentally friendly way and to european standards as well it's a difficult compromise of course you know I mean it's very difficult yeah and also how much are we taking so you know in in in mines the the the the the more you start by extracting one material the more the higher concentration there is and the you know the further you get so the concentration goes down right right now we are at less than 1% for copper or 0.5 or what is it 0.3 yeah so it also means that if europe gets all the first stuff of dysprosium and you know scandium tellurium and all of that then the second half of the the planet that will start their decarbonization might get less concentration as well so there is also an equity element you know it's a it's not a it's not as easy as just stocks and flows there as you mentioned geopolitics environmental elements social elements labor elements all of these elements that are and economic elements as well as since we today we are also discussing uh these seabats mining but if you look at at yeah the places where they are finding the catering kipperton um yeah for example in in the uh pacific yeah that's 4 000 meters uh below the the the water surface so um yeah that's that's also technology that is that will cost something it's far away from processing uh facilities and so you need a lot of transport as well so that comes with the cost and and yeah if markets are or are stressed and and if the demand is too high of course people will will be willing to pay that there are even people thinking of going to esterates and and there are uh mine mine these metals but needless to say that that will cost even much more just a small parenthesis so about the the seabed uh because i'm not a big expert on on this um and i think it was a hot topic very recently as well you know there were some laws that were getting passed uh of course it's biodiversity in biodiversity terms and also in uh co2 emission terms it it's probably a disaster right but still i yeah i don't know in c2 terms uh since uh well it depends on what what what metal you want to extract as but it's quite concentrated in this nodule so that might be quite okay but biodiversity is is a real problem it's it's it's a very unknown uh area and and uh i understand it and i also uh convinced that we need much more research on what the the real impact is of of doing that kind of mining at the seafloor so we should be sure that that that the impact is is really minimal uh but of course it has to be researched i i think um yeah when we we try to do new things um we have to be cautious but we can also try to find out what's what really happens and something that that that can be done and is done today yeah and in terms of concentration in terms of quantities is there any i mean is it that intelligent to do so is there a strategical stake to to do so is it because of the speeds that you would do it what is the sorry this is really a basic question but i think a number of people are hearing about sea beds and as we're talking about our the demand of um of metals and we say that uh on the lithosphere there probably is enough not in the right time frame and all of this and all of that but uh so why why this new thing that's that's it's a short parenthesis well we're gonna close it but out of curiosity i'm not a specialist in in that neither um i think it could deliver let's say uh yeah some some 10 20 percent for example uh of of of the nickel supply maybe um that will impact the the the the price of the markets as well if the market is is if a new source is coming to the market of course the supply will increase and then the marketplace and and then the price will go down and uh for me the whole question is whether it's economically viable to do so and the companies are studying that so i don't know but that uh yeah it's it's it's a very complex problem since on the other hand we also have these these indonesian mines for for nickel which are having an impact on biodiversity as well and is that's what we want so but in principle i i think we can we could do without as well but of course yeah then we have to take all the disadvantages of of uh land surface mining as well yeah yeah yeah okay so we have an idea of you know this metal consumption that we're gonna need also um the stock flow problem the dynamics your report was also focused on europe and how these global scenarios would would be i mean how europe would be affected by these global scenarios and you also mentioned about opening new mines you mentioned about europe's autonomy or self uh self-sufficiency so how much today is europe satisfying its metals demand uh through local mining uh approximately i mean i think i see here in some places almost zero and also in by 2030 because i see here the figure these by charts is there something feasible and of course you put a lot of asterisk meaning that there is a lot of uncertain project there are model projects etc etc but what would be the best scenario best case scenario in terms of self-sufficiency in europe oh my god that's a difficult question yes it's a loaded question yeah it's a loaded question as well since opening new mines there are it's not easy in europe you have to you have to get the permits and you have the public opinion that is not not not not uh happy with that neither so um but it and it also depends on on on on the metals as i said before we have the the commodities such as as nickel which we i think mining in europe delivers some 16 percent uh of the nickel to to the european market which is not a lot and the the point is that we don't think that it increase can increase a lot neither and so that's by 2030 or also 2050 by 23rd yeah 30 let's say even 2050 and i don't see that's happening in in in europe while for lithium and where it's the the yeah the situation might be different for all clarity for lithium it's zero percent today but um yeah there are projects announced let's see whether they will happen or not uh in in finland and in uh in france and in portugal yeah um it could deliver some part of it yeah but again uh that will take time five ten even more years uh and i would i i would stress the the the possibility to recycle even more than that since the time frame is maybe a bit longer even for recycling but the capacity will be larger and so capacity to recycle lithium could be much more and then what we can get out of of of the mines it's important to to have some mines to have some self-sufficiency as as we call it but it will never be be a hundred percent that we are an open economy and a global economy as well so i don't think that this is a good a good goal to to be 100 in the independent neither but to have some some internal uh supply from resources within europe yeah would be good also to to have something uh and to to to have some impact on the markets yeah in case of a shock as well etc etc yeah and so we you talked about recycling uh what about recycling is is there already any plants uh for these elements are going to increase so much uh traditionally of course there is there are a lot of recycling plants and in belgium i mean when we talk about steel steel must be recycled at the 70 to 90 percent right i mean it's a it's a huge amount some other metals as well but these new metals these exotic metals these metals that are the most needed are the ones of course that they are not recycled right yeah that's that's correct and that's that's a pity one of the reasons is that the we talked about stocks and flows that these flows that are coming out of the the waste streams in the end of life of all these products is still limited so if there is recycling for example recycling of pv panels it's mainly based on production waste but there are possibilities it's possible to to recycle a little it can be improved still be improved of course but it's possible but it's uh today yeah the the the the volumes are not that large it's economically not that interesting yet to do it uh but that that that will come i'm i'm quite sure of that um same holds for for the rare earth metals uh uh they are in cars for example they are mainly used for the permanent magnets in electric motors yeah we we have done already several projects to um to search for the right method and you you could extract these metals from these rare earths again that's quite complex that comes also with a an environmental footprint uh since it's it's a complex uh flow sheet that you need for that but you could also recycle the alloy for the uh for the permanent magnets and yeah recycle it as such but then you need a separate recycling system only for permanent magnets which is not unthinkable since you have the permanent magnets of vehicles but you also have the permanent magnets of offshore uh windmills for example also are even larger there so that that that could be done and i i also think that in the circuit economy we we have to yeah try to downsize a bit the yeah the recycling system i i i want to say that we should be able to cope with smaller streams that are more specifically for one application one alloy recovered over there of course on the next part we're gonna discuss more broadly about circular economy and also about how perhaps the best so today globally circular economy rates are going down just because we put more stuff in the machine right there is more extraction and therefore it dilutes or minimizes the the impact of circular economy so as you mentioned this is key to to minimize the flows or to manage them efficiently because right now we we don't manage them just before we go to some conclusions are these recycling plants we talked about europe but also do do they exist internationally are they plants is this kind of the the right push or they all await for some stock in order for economically to be viable or a number of lithium recycling plants exist or a number of uh but let's be honest europe is always a bit advanced more advanced in these things where it comes to to recycling although in japan is also very active i'm not that aware that that there are a lot of initiatives but i think in the current context of of a world where blocks want to be become more autonomous and and that's supply risks are everywhere experienced yeah i think that that's that's a lot of other countries are looking at recycling issue as well but i do believe that in europe we really are in the forefront of it well hopefully this is also going to stimulate a number of uh i mean we're in the materials center as well so you have your your hands on it right i mean you're in the pulse of things and i think this will be essential uh for for the future i'll try to conclude with some of the elements we we we said and we need to keep in mind based on the report and also considering the future of mobility sector especially on resource use then we're gonna talk about the circular economy as well so there are three elements that i've noted down here sufficiency so we need to reduce our demand somehow um either a smaller cars a smaller smaller amount of kilometers we need to to drive etc etc so how to reduce our demand of mobility material efficiency of course by uh burning fossil fuels we're going to replace it with metals that these are going to last a lifetime and so in that sense there is some efficiency gain and also some efficiency gain in terms of an electric car that consume less than a conventional car and then circular economy so we haven't mentioned too much but there is a co2 footprint of secondary versus primary supply of of metals and i think this is very important to to underline and finally the relocalization we mentioned can we relocalize some mines some processing or some recycling and this will also reduce enlarge the co2 footprint can can we perhaps underline some of these elements we we never mentioned the co2 footprint for instance of secondary versus primary yeah sure that that that's correct um so for some metals that the co2 footprint of the recycles of the recycling is is much lower it it even can be a factor 10 for example um that's true although i i also have to say for some other elements you need complex uh flow sheets to to recycle and then you have almost the same processing needed as for the virgin materials but another aspect is if we if we look at a co2 footprint is that um european standards are very strict and that's a good thing for all clarity um and that also means that if you look if you compare production of some of these metals nickel for example in europe compared to in indonesia or other place china yeah that there is also a clear difference so that's another reason to relocate or at least to to be in favor of having or keeping metallurgy in europe um i know nobody wants that in the backyard of course yeah but actually yeah the footprint is smaller than if if it is just uh in in all in other continents so that's another another point related to to the co2 emissions which you can mention a lot of other things as well a water stress and and human rights and and and they all have they all differ from country to country uh there are a lot of of problems with that as well and we mentioned kong for the cobalt uh extraction for example that makes this story very very complex of course yeah i i try to to keep it here to the resource flows and then the supply and the demand but in in our report we we also have added some considerations about these environmental and social aspects as well there is a last part i generally ask if you have anything that you would like us to to share with us so like a book or a movie or something that talks about let's say metals the future of metals metals and the mobility sector is there something that you have read listened watched that you think might be important for others to to have a look in order to continue you know our discussion yeah well i'm not prepared for that i know i know i know that's always the question oh i wish i was ever prepared a bit for this um when it comes to supply chain of products and product families um there is a very nice report published by the jrc in ispra last spring that's that's a nice one that you can consult of course and if it comes to to mining in europe for example i can recommend the videos of my colleague peter tom jones he has made some very nice videos and a report on on that yeah well fantastic many thanks carol for this discussion thanks all as well for listening and watching until the end so please make sure to watch as well the second episode that will focus on the circular economy and the mobility sector that will come out tomorrow on the urban mobility explain youtube channel many thanks carol and many thanks to all of you as well you're welcome