 My name is John Harrison, I am a Solutions Producer at Parsons TKO and I've been heavily involved in contact models and contact modeling with several of our clients here at Parsons TKO. And my co-presenter is Adam Good, he's a senior strategist. He'll also be talking about what a contact model is to start us off. So without further ado. Let's talk a little bit about your contact model so you have your contact model now what to sort of get us grounded I'd like to start on what a contact model is so for this portion of the webinar I'll hand it over to Adam to talk through and give us some insights into what this all means. Thanks so much John and thanks everyone for joining us here today it looks like we have kind of a small, a small group here so feel free to throw questions in the chat. As we go along and we'll kind of look at them as we go we do have a fun kind of hands on exercise for y'all a little bit later, but feel free to ask questions as we go along. So today, we'll be talking about what a contact model is and more importantly what a contact model can help you do. What are the outputs of a contact model look like. How can you actually apply it what does it help you as an organization, you know, do better in terms of outreach and engagement with your audiences. So first let's just dive into kind of an overview of what a contact model is. The contact model, really it starts as a mental model, which outlines the key information that you need to know about specific contacts to power meaningful engagement. And what that means is thinking, it's kind of like going beyond personas to think about what are the attributes of specific individuals and collections of individuals that matter to you in terms of how you want to interact with them. And in person over text, etc. So that you're able to more meaningfully engage with them through various channels and really track track what you have, you know what you're what you've been doing with them. Yes and Dom you can ask questions in the q amp a section I saw that there. All right, so we can go the next slide. So, going a little bit deeper, a little bit deeper into this that the really important thing is that you really need to know who you're dealing with. So if you want to build a relationship with someone it's not enough to know that they're an anonymous visitor to your website that maybe looked at an article, or click that donate button or shared a piece of your content you want to know as much about them, as particularly how they overlap in various ways with with your organization your interests and your offerings. So we kind of think about that broadly in three categories. So we talk about knowing just the foundational identity elements of a contact so who they are, their name, their email the organization that they're currently with their role. Those kind of core identity attributes. Then we talk about interests so what they care about what topics or issues, do they care about are their particular regions if you know if you're doing work that has regional focuses, you know are the particular regions or areas. What kind of content do they care about how do they like being communicated with. So really starting to understand as deeply as possible what what people care about what brought them to your organization in the first place. You know this is especially important with organizations that deal with lots of different issues, and lots of different topics. You know we work with a lot of organizations that cover multiple issue, multiple issue areas, and not everyone's going to care about everything. So it's important to know what people care about. And finally, we talk about the activity of your contact so what they've done, have they signed up for an event, have they met with someone on staff, have they donated, have they signed a petition. The specifics of this obviously are going to, you know vary from organization organization, but what a contact model lets you do is say which of these actions do we care about, and how are we tracking them so that we can know if we pull someone up in a contact office we can say oh this person met with met with staff. They care about a particular issue. They're connected with a senator's office, you know, knowing as much about a contact as possible to help you drive engagement with them and advance your, advance your interests. And go to the next slide. Another really key element of a contact model is helping you understand relationships between between the audiences that that you engage with their relationships with you, their relationships with each other, and their relationships with the wider world. So you can see here, kind of like a little mini network of people that may be affiliated with an organization as well as kind of their attributes. So, Eric is a CEO of a particular organization she's a major donor. Eric is assisted by Isaiah. And so we know now you know Isaiah would have their own record in your contact in your contact model you could say oh they work in the campaign man as a campaign manager and organization. They have a particular need for a legal review. They assist Erica, and you can sort of see this network expanding out to Jasmine over on the right who's a blogger is a subject matter expert on one of those key topics of interest, kind of where she lives that she spoke in an advocacy event. You can see, you know, Joe up in the top right who's a spouse of Erica, and who advocates on behalf of the organization, and also attended the same event where Jasmine spoke. So the richer your contact model is the more it effectively allows you to identify and really leverage these networks and connections. So instead of saying, you know, everyone who's on our email list come to this event you're able to say, who are the key people that have come to events in the past that we know are well connected that we might want to invite to speak at the event, or help us promote it to their network. So, the more you know about each individual and the relationships between them, the better able you are to leverage those connections. And we'll definitely be passing around copies of the slide deck, and those come out on pretty quickly. And sorry I see Lisa type in on that one so. Yeah, so here's, here's a kind of a complex use case about, you know what a contact model is good for. Because again, we, we start off by saying that it's a mental model. It's a mental model that then you translate into basically your systems that you use to manage and track your contacts. So that could be CRM email list will get into that a little bit later but you have all that information structured in any place or places, along with governance and workflows around it, so that you can do things like this. And then you want to say, hey, I'm an advocacy organization, you know, the way that we create change is by, you know, policymakers and policy influencers. So they are more important and more valuable to us than the quote general public or even reporters maybe or other audiences. So maybe you have a use case where you want you want to say hey we're having this this event, it's part of our series on national security. We really value we really value contacts at the State Department and we want to know immediately will be a contact from the State Department. So the, this is use case would say hey alert me when a new contact from the State Department registers for an event on national security, so that I can notify the national security program lead so that they can send a personal and all of those items that are kind of bolded and green and underline are really there to emphasize the importance of modeling these use cases out and saying, if you want these things to happen these things have to be baked into your system. Right, you need to know if a new contact is from the State Department, you need to know if they register for an event they need to know what that event is about national security. You need to have a system in place to alert a specific person internally, you need to have your staff or your people in the system, so that this this use case can say hey find me the national security program lead and alert them. And then for them to send a personal email. That's a governance and structure thing right you want to say hey we have this process in place. So the national security program lead if you get this notification here's the template or here's the talking points right. So, part of this is really, you know what you can do with a contact model, especially in the beginning stages is get your key stakeholders and evolved to identify these use cases what are their dreams. What are their wildest dreams about, you know, better understanding and engaging with their audiences, because a lot of things are possible these days and a lot of things are possible with not necessarily too much effort. You know this is kind of a more complex use case, but is actually totally doable. You know if you have the right pieces in place. So again that's one kind of one use case illustrating what you can do with a good contact model. Next slide. What gets in the way. So I said that you that's something that that that you can do, you know, if the right pieces are in place. A contact model one of the most valuable things that it can do is help you get a handle on and improve your contact ecosystem. And by contact ecosystem we mean the blend of ad hoc structured and distributed systems that maintain information contacts. And this is very very representative of a lot of the organizations that we work with that have a lot of different places where pieces of this information lies and very rarely do they have kind of a single source of truth for that information, or really effective connections between these places. So instead of going from left to right we see, you know your donor CRM or your digital CRM or your email and email automation tool. So those are all systems that do different things in different ways, but all of which can collect and use a certain amount of information about your contacts, but they don't always align. And that's not to say you need to collapse all of these into one single, you know, ideal ring of power kind of system that will know everything. But you need to make sure that there's a that that mental model that holistic understanding of your contacts. So you could say, Hey, when we talk about donors in our CRM, we need to use the same language that we do in our email tool. Going even further to the right, we need to use the same language, you know, if a particular program is using a spreadsheet to track their interactions with people or people are creating reports based on, you know, in person events with a handful of donors, you know, using that same language kind of connects those systems. So a big part of the the challenge and the opportunity, particularly in large organizations is saying, who do we care about? What do we want to know about them? What do we want to do with that information? And then, and then you can go, Okay, where does all that information live? Does it live anywhere? You know, we, we do some of these conversations with clients where it's like, Oh, yeah, talk to this person, they know about that. And it's like in, in, in just in their brain, right, it's just, you know, oh, I know I can talk to these five people about this topic. And that's a great resource, right? You need to have those people that have those relationships and know those contacts, but it makes it hard to scale, you know, that kind of organizational, organizational knowledge and memory. So, a lot of times will, you know, the way that we work with this is a lot of times organizations will say, Oh, we need a new CRM, or we need a new email platform. And we almost always can focus on that, but we'd like to zoom out a little bit and say, you know, what is the state of your contacts of your contact ecosystem of your contact model? Because chances are the real value that you're trying to derive from a particular system is more diffuse in other systems, right? So you might think email is the solution, we get a better email tool, we're going to be able to do better things. But unless it's really tightly coordinated with your CRM, if that's in a different place and the people using email and the programs, you're going to run into the same kind of limitations. It might be faster, it might be spiffier, the design interface might be nicer, but it's not going to ultimately help you really advance the objectives that you have for these tools in the first place. So I think we can go on to the next slide. Thanks, Adam. Oh, yeah. So now that you have a decent understanding, a primer of what a contact model is and how it's holistic and shared across your organization, we want to pivot a little bit and talk a little bit about what the outputs of a contact model look like. Like what can you do with it once you have a contact model in your organization? So this is not an exhaustive list, but I do want to talk about these different blocks in detail. So let's start. How many orgs out there embark upon, you know, one or all of the things that you see here without a contact model? Chances are it's a lot of them, right? They don't necessarily have a holistic view of their audiences and the contacts that live within those exotic audiences. So let's start up here in the top left with segmentation. Contact model really helps with defining the groupings and organization that you need to improve your reporting. So that's something to be aware of that it's a blueprint for. Usable personas. What are usable personas? Well, a contact model can help you build functional representations of your fictional audiences, right? Using the real attributes like Adam was talking about before. So talking about the real things are interested in, the real affinities that they have, the real relationships that you're tracking. Instead of, you know, building a persona that gets built by a consultant and put on an F drive somewhere on a file server and no one looks at it for years and years. So it's a way to have sort of an evolving persona. List management. This is a huge one. A contact model can demonstrate the overlaps you have with newsletters, with topics in newsletters, with program interests, with the advocacy work that you're doing, or even the types of contacts that you wanted, want to manage email outreach to. So that's a real, real big one that can be a time saver with the contact model being the blueprint for engagement ladders. You know, sometimes this is referred to as contact nurturing. The contact model can help with valuable insights into the phases and the activities and deliverables that happen as people are making their way through this engagement ladder. So this is really, really valuable as well. I put CRM in the middle because that's the big elephant in the room. We'll come back to that one because that's got a whole section in the webinar here. The next strategy is a huge one. Your contact model can help you identify the topics that are most valuable to your audience members, the ones that they're most interested in hearing about. So imagine having, you know, the data to understand what newsletter has the best click through rate with your top 100 donors, what social media stories resonated with that audience. You know, Google ad resonated headline wise and brought new leads and prospects. So what curated content in your email, for instance, can be used to reach a desired segment of your database. So, moving on to a better relationship tracking, you know, we've talked about this a little bit like you might want to know something simple like what organization someone works for or if someone's a member of a particular household, but you can take it a step further and really track some really complex relationships, once you have your contact model to guide that. Building and refining taxonomies. This is a huge one like Adam was talking about earlier is if you do a contact model activity, you can start to see where there are gaps with the way internal staff talk about programs talk about the work that you do. Even, you know, calling a newsletter something internally might be different for how it's seen externally. So it's really about getting getting consensus on on the taxonomies that you use to, to label the work that you're doing, the language that you use to talk about the work that you're doing and how it's organized like if it's organized into a particular hierarchy. And then lastly, your your contact model can can be a great blueprint for your for your ad channels. Like if you know, if you know if you're tracking an interaction with a contact. And you know that they're interested in a particular social media channel like LinkedIn for business, you know, if you know that then you can funnel the money into the place where you're going to get the most bang for the buck. So CRM is the huge one I think that's the one we're going to spend a little bit of time time on that's the most obvious one right like everything that we've been talking about earlier with contact model with identity attributes with interest attributes and activities and relationships you know that's all what a CRM is built for, but so many organizations go into a CRM stand up activity and they don't have any kind of blueprint for it they just start throwing spaghetti at the wall so the contact model is really important to get a good CRM set up or to improve an existing one as well. So let's talk a little bit about some practical applications of the contact model. Let's talk a little bit more about the contact model as the CR CRM system of truth. So this is really about are you tracking the right data about your contacts and the best format. So, identity interest and activity attributes attributes that are unearthed during a contact model workshop like one of the ones that we typically would would facilitate with our clients is the foundation for a new CRM, you know, or it can be used to improve an existing one. So, one thing we, we like to look at is, do you have the right kinds of fields, you know, in your CRM, or if you're standing up in New York, New CRM, do you have the right thinking in place to capture the things that you need. Some CRMs will come boilerplate with some standard fields, especially if it's a nonprofit focused CRM, but a lot of times you have to add custom fields and to get to get what you want so that you can have a more holistic view of your contacts. So it's things like contact type, the lead source so where did, where did this person come from did they come from the website did they come from social media did they come from a from a phone inquiry, did they come through a form on your website. So it's really tracking those types of things. And there's a little bit of customization here right that you probably want to do based on your current contact ecosystem. If you're capturing a contacts organization, what are the details of the organization. Are they a for profit company. Are they a neighbor nonprofit. Are they a competitor. Are they a foundation, you know so there's a lot of different details you can capture from your contact model to to build that CRM out. You know company size number of employees you know the opportunity value like is this contact volunteer a potential volunteer are they an advocate. Are they a potential speaker, you know at an upcoming events, could they be a major gift donor, like so these are things that you can, you can assess with your CRM. What life cycle stage are they in with your organization, you know is this a person that's known about your mission and has participated in the work that you're doing for a long time. Have they donated in years past have they volunteered, or is this someone who's newly initiated to what you're doing. You know this is something that you can track like the probability of their continued engagement using that contact model as a blueprint. And you can also get some really specific contact details like we've talked about already, you can get things like donation history. But you want to really make sure that you're using that contact model to build those right fields. And then, you know, taking it a step farther into the more technical area which is also very important is field types, you know, how many folks in an organization have gone to pull a report in a system, only to find that the data fields were built in a way that didn't help answer the right. Someone might have typed in the lead source instead of using a more structured and standardized way like a drop down list or something like that. This can make reporting a headache right so you want to have standardized data so that you can improve that reporting, but you also wanted to provide framing or guardrails for what's entered in the CRM so that, so that everyone's kind of having that common language when you're working at the CRM, and they understand that X means X and Y means why and so on. So it's also easier to build automation workflows and leverage machine learning and artificial intelligence. When the inputs have a consistent format so these are just some different examples of field types that you might employ as you're standing up your CRM that are informed by the contact model. So we've talked a little bit about contact relationship tracking. A contact model demonstrates practical ways to better track and leverage your relationships. And these can be really complex relationships like the ones that we saw on the slide earlier where it was almost an intricate web of relationships and there was a need in there that that could be better identified based on the contact model. But they can also be really simple they could be one way you know you can track organizations and companies that a person works for or works with. They can be two way or three way they can be things like households or like families spouses children siblings related to a particular contact. So it could be like person X reports to person why you know that's something that's extremely helpful to know or person a assist person be and vice versa so there's a lot of relationships you can track in these systems. But if you have the contact model to guide that you can set it up in a way that's respectful to what you want to see in the system. So let's talk a little bit about the contact nurturing process we also called this the engagement ladder. Use the contact model to help define like some phases of contact nurturing. So an engagement ladder example I have here is really it's talk it's a grid so it's really pretty simple to understand it's organized into columns. So the columns really are the phases that you see in a particular contact nurturing process. So the phases might be the first touch, and then the steps in between, and then when the phase is complete. And in each one of these phases you'll probably have an objective of that phase like what are you trying to do in this particular phase. You might have activities that happen in those phases so you might have tasks, you might have automations you might have manual steps that someone needs to take with that contact maybe it's reaching out to them sending a one to one email, inviting them to an event, sending a follow up email those kinds of things. So when it's complete, you know because when it's complete you get down to this area at the bottom, the deliverable section which is, you know when that phase is considered complete. That's when it's done and moves on to the next phase so if you have your contact model, you can start to use the insights gleaned from that to build really strong contact nurturing processes and engagement ladders, and your CRM of choice. So one of the examples that we've seen recently in working with clients is building a donor journey saw contact nurturing process, doing moves management with fundraising, doing grant intake, you know so if you're a foundation perhaps you might be distributing grants to other nonprofits in your community. So this is a great way to do that and manage the contacts and their interactions related to that. So managing scholarships. You might be trying to handle a volunteering program this is a great way to sort of vet and set up volunteers. It might be a way to do advocacy for your organization to build someone from someone who's just signed up for signed a petition to actually speaking an event. You can do it with internal things as well you know staff or can also be contact so you could use something like this to manage like a hiring process as well. So I have a better example on the next slide as well. This is kind of a donor stewardship example. And I think this one's really good because it gives you a sense of the different phases in stewarding a donor, like the phases might be research, initial intro cultivation donation and acknowledgement. This is just here to point out that the start of a contact nurturing ladder can happen before you actually touch, talk to or touch the contact at all so the research for donor stewardship might happen before that phases right. Phases can take, they can be really short, you know they can wrap up in a week, or they can take years you know if you're cultivating a planned giving or a major gift donation from a particular donor. This is something that can take a long time so this this could be a process that stretches out. And the activities like I said before those tasks and steps that move the process forward, and there's lots of opportunities and in the activities area for assigning tasks to different people within your organization so that you can keep that contact nurturing and engagement ladder, moving in a, in a positive way. And then of course the deliverables are the definition of done for that piece. Okay, so we wanted to pull in a real world example. From a someone who signed up for the webinar we looked up an organization we thought this was a really interesting one. This is Tasha's furry friends sanctuary. We're going to have fun with a real nonprofit example here so I'll read you their, their mission statement so you can get a sense of what they're about. Tasha's furry friends sanctuary is a 501 C3 on profit volunteer based no kill animal sanctuary for senior cats and special needs cats and kittens. Tasha's furry friends sanctuaries mission is to provide senior cats and special needs cats and kittens with a safe haven to ensure they can live out their lives and love, dignity, comfort, compassion, and with companionship throughout their lives and in their senior years. I wanted to invite. I'm going to invite my colleague Bob back here to he's a, he's going to role play as a major donor prospect. I'll introduce you to his identity and then I'll let him talk through the different interest activity and relationship attributes here. Bob back is, is pretending to be Pierre mon meow, his salutation is Mr. His title at his organization is senior cat director, his organization is mon meow cat smart, his pronouns are he him. And then I would like to hand it over to him to talk a little bit about the, those attributes that really speak to him that we learned about when we were putting his information in our CRM. Hello everyone. So, as you know I'm here mon meow for today. So my interests are the animal at this advocacy philanthropy such as fundraising and such volunteering my time for cats, public speaking. So I do some tick tock. I'm on cat talk a lot with and also LinkedIn. Some media consumer would be our caster pet finder, Jackson's guide sees my cat from heaven. And some of the activities I participated in our, I gave $2,000 on giving Tuesday for the spay new to find. So I'm inquired about stocks which is a major gift on January 17. And I participated in the sponsor a kitty program in 2019 and 2022. I've attended adoption events this year in on January 15. And some of my relationships I have here are. I'm interested in fostering a furry friend, mostly cats. I'm also interested in advocacy with best friends at North Utah feral cat community serves, and I serve on the board of the Supreme cat organization. And I'm part of the our local households part of our field for those of you that are not familiar. And I'm the spouse of sharing on me. Thank you Pierre we appreciate that. Imagine if you had this level of detail on a major donor prospect to your organization, and you had some of these fields, even some of these fields available in your CRM and things that you could do with this amount of information. So for instance, whoops, go back here. One second, my mouse just went a little haywire. Sorry about that. Okay, sorry about that. I will share my screen now. Okay. Okay, we're back back on track here. Can everyone see my screen. Okay. Okay. So imagine if you had that level of information that we had on on mr mom meow. We could actually use it to do really good outreach you know we can. And this is an example of a one to one email on a gala event that this organization is pretend having with Jackson Galaxy, and you can get a sense of all that information that we had in our CRM can now be translated a little more quickly and in a targeted fashion to to like a one to one email. And, you know, you can also build in the CRM some, some of those different activities some of those different tasks that we talked about with the contact nurturing to perhaps have the relationship manager for your major donors like reach out to this person to to invite for coffee. We wanted to pause here for a second and give everyone a chance to do an activity with us this is the first time that we've done an activity like this in one of our webinars so this is going to be a bit experimental so bear with us. I'd like for you all to think of a key audience member at your organization, it can be a real person, it can be a fake person. This person will be your contact. Okay. You can build a contact card around this person using Google slides. If you're not familiar with Google slides or you don't want to use Google slides or PowerPoint or anything like that you can also do this activity on paper. What I would like to do is a like for you to, after you've thought about that key audience member your organization. Give your contact a name and identity. Start on jotting down what you know about this person. Okay. To find at least five identity attributes that apply to this contact so you know those are the things that we talked about first when we were talking about Pierre Mondial, right. Like his salutation his pronouns his zip code, those kinds of things. And then I want you to pick at least five interests or activities that you can apply to this contact so that might be the topics they're interested in the things that they like to read about the social media channels that they engage with. And apply those to the contact as well, and then define five relationships that you would like to track about the contact that could help improve your understanding of their needs desires and affinities. And if you have time at the end of this activity. Find a picture and avatar to represent your contact and replace the anonymous headshot with it. So I'm going to leave this up for just a second, and I'm going to queue up another slide deck that we have here. We're going to be sharing out a slide deck as a template that you all can copy and use for your own purposes to do this activity. If you want to use Google slides. But like I said if you have a piece of paper if you want to jot this down on a piece of paper and do this activity. That's fine as well. So, this is the activity so to give you a sense of how this works. There's your avatar of the person for your contact card. These are some different identity attributes. If you're in the Google slides version you can actually just click on the box and type right in the box. So it's interactive. And then you've got your interest activity and relationship attributes so the same is true here you can actually click on the box and type right in the box. So I'd like you to pick five identity attributes, five interest and activity attributes and five relationships that you'd like to track and start building out your ideal contact card based on this contact model that you've done so. And I think, let's see, we need to share out the. Yes. Thank you Lisa. Okay, so we've shared out the Google slides link in the chat. So if you click on the link on slide for the instructions for making an editable version of the Docker on slide for. If you're having trouble and you just prefer to do it in paper, that's fine too. So we'll pause here for a second and let folks build out their contact card, based on what you've learned today. We'll be wrapping up the activity in a couple of minutes. Thank you. We will finish up the activity in a few seconds here and move on to our last couple of slides. Okay, we'll stop here. So what now, or what meow. So, take a look at the contact card that you've built, you know, think about your current system. Do you have the tools and the processes in place to capture log track and report on the data you need about your contacts, you know to create those meaningful relationships throughout the lifecycle of engagement. Do you, you know review that contact card for gaps, you know, are you tracking and collecting the data to improve the decisions. Do you know where the person is in the engagement ladder. Are they the beginning of the funnel or at the end of the funnel. Do you have ways for this person to maybe self identify some of their attributes. Do you have a privacy protected. That's a really important one. Can they opt out of certain types of communication without a lot of hassle. Do the last three outreach pieces that you sent to them, did they resonate to the even open them, you know, I think these are all things to think about when you're, when you're building a contact model informed CRM. Thank you all for joining the webinar today. We have a ton of awesome content on our website we've got articles videos blog posts we have Tony Capetini's engaging ideas podcast which is on Spotify Apple Music and a couple of other channels. We have a really exciting event coming up in February around diversifying giving Tuesday, and we'll have, we'll be talking about a product called civis during that webinar which is really interesting it's a way to tie together data across multiple systems. So thank you so much for your time today. And if you have any questions please post them in the chat we'll be here for a few more minutes. Yeah, so don don massive activity attributes are the same as conversions. And I would say, in most cases, yes, conversions being just a particular type of activity that you define as something that you want your audience to do. You know, I think we're big fans of identifying clearly, all the conversions that matter. So not just a donate or an email sign up but register for an event actually attend the event. Reach out to a staff member, etc. So I think in many cases, the activity attributes should probably be almost exactly the same as the conversions. So there might be some that I'm not thinking of that might be different but we have basically basically conversions. Thank you, Lisa, Lisa drop the link to our next event in the chat if you're interested in signing up I think it's going to be a really good one. And since we have a minute, I'll speak to one of Dom's earlier questions as well about the difference between user personas and usable personas. And I answered that in the Q&A but I wanted to just elaborate on it just a little bit is one of the big things that we find with personas is that orgs spent a lot of time and effort creating the perfect picture of each of their audiences. They're sort of meant to lead marketing or communications efforts but it's the use cases of the personas is never really clearly defined. And so they end up getting put in a drawer somewhere or pulled out, or not not really used in any kind of actionable way. So when we talk about usable personas we're talking about making sure that the things you care about are for your audiences apply to specific contacts that are then tracked in your system, and that you have processes in place to actually take action on those. And you know one of the things that Dom asked was about kind of like a living persona, which we definitely recommend a big blocker to implement a lot of these things is documentation and governance. So when we talk about, when we talk about the contact model and user personas, you know, we are continually looking for ways to make those things more viewable and defined and tangible within an organization so that people can say, hey, for this type of audience there's no place we can go as a team as an organization to say, what do we know about these people. How do we engage with them, what works, what doesn't, and it's sort of built up over time so it becomes a collection, not just of aspirational or anecdotal or hypothetical attributes of an audience like over time you can really see, oh is this actually true. We said we think small donors do this, but actually when we ran these 10 campaigns based on that assumption, we found it wasn't true so now we need to adjust. So the usable persona, the emphasis there is that it gets used, and that there are things, a lot of practices and processes and structures in place in your organization that that make it more likely to get used. Absolutely. And I think another thing too is, when you're setting up a CRM, you know, using the contact model, you can also think about the contact layout that a particular team might need, you know, so the, the like a major donor or a relationship manager for a donor might need a different view than somebody who is in marketing or somebody who's doing something different maybe with operations and your nonprofit so something to think about as well is a usable persona could inform the view that people need to see within the CRM as well so it's definitely something that's more actionable something that people can continually evolve you know I need to see this field or I need to see this dashboard in the view that I have into the CRM based on what I need to know about my contacts. Yeah, and just to piggyback on that a little bit that that really speaks to the value of involving your stakeholders from across different parts of the organization in your contact modeling work. You know, even if what seems like a project for one team like maybe the finance team or the fundraising team owns the CRM. A lot of that information is going to be relevant to the communications team or to the field team. So really getting a sense of who needs to know what where those overlap kind of from a foundational standpoint so you can get it in the system. That will start to pave the way for what john's talking about which is, you know, the communications team might need to see a certain view of a of contacts that is different than the fundraising team and that is different than the field team. And that that approach also can get past one of the big blockers of these types of initiatives, which is fundraising teams, not wanting to share information about funders more broadly with the organization particularly high value funders. You know, we've seen time and time again conversations. We don't want anyone to email these people because they give us $50,000 a year, and we have one on one relationships with them so we don't want them getting an email every week from some policy team. So that is going to all continue to be a challenge, but it's not something that we think you should just sort of sweep under the rug and say okay well you get your data, and I get mine. Like those are all challenges that can be addressed with good conversations and then with good processing governance. I can think of a good story recently, Adam, along those lines like where there was a major gift donor at a nonprofit that I was working with that had been excluded from any email communication and they, they showed up at a brewery. There was an event happening at the brewery and the donor had no idea that the nonprofit was was doing an event there, and they were surprised in a not good way if you can imagine being a high value donor, but it was because there was the fences were set really high within their CRM to really let this know that something they might be interested in is happening in their, in their community. So definitely something to think about when you're setting up your CRM and assigning like field level permissions and governance to the things that are in that system. I think we are just about at time. We'll probably wrap it up here in a minute unless there are any other questions that you want to drop in the Q&A. And as John mentioned, we have a lot of awesome resources up on the site that we would love for you to take a look at and get in touch, you know, continue these conversations. These are big gnarly complex systems and problems. And, you know, it's definitely not, you know, there's there's not a cookie cutter kind of approach to solving these. So, you know, we'd love the chance to talk with you about what you're trying to do with your organization, you know where you are with your contact model, or really any of these pieces. I mentioned earlier that, you know, sometimes you think you need a new email system and that connects to all these other things. Part of what we like to do is help you figure out where you where where your efforts going to be most valuable. Okay. All right, so I think with that we can we can close. Thank you all so much for coming and and attending and asking a lot of great questions and look forward to hearing from you. Have a good rest of your day.