 Good morning, and welcome to the Adams for Climate Pavilion. If everyone could cease their conversations. Thank you I'm Jennifer Gordon, and I'm the director of the Atlantic Council's nuclear energy policy initiative and I'm so so delighted to be here and want to thank the IEA and NEI and I'm also delighted to introduce our panelists today Alan Simpson who is chief technologist of Equilibrium Ami Roma, partner and global energy practice leader at Hogan levels and Claire Broadbent head of sustainability at the world steel association and For our topic today, which is looking at the role of nuclear energy and decarbonizing hard to abate sectors So going beyond the power sector. I think it's difficult to imagine Three better panelists to address this topic than the speakers that we have so very excited for this conversation Alan, I'd like to start with you. Please give us a bit of an overview of the work that you're doing Absolutely. Well, well, thank you very much for the opportunity to come and speak today As you said before I'm Alan Simpson from from Equilibrium Equilibrium we're perhaps unique definitely in the UK and we think globally In the fact that we're a startup organization that is focused on how we connect nuclear energy To all those hard-to-abate sectors We are technology agnostic for the nuclear energy and just really focused on what technologies We need to bring together and what industries we need to bring together To make it possible for the the hard-to-abate challenge to be delivered so we're just over a year old and We focus on a variety of different projects Looking at how we bring different sectors into this topic so I've had a number of years of experience working on particularly nuclear-enabled hydrogen and How we use nuclear's heat and electricity to provide low-carbon Hydrogen synthetic fuels or heat to industrial processes I think perhaps a good starting point is an example of the sort of project that we bring together To to make this achievable and that's a project that we're working on called EQ flight And that is our technology system to connect Any type of nuclear power plant around the world into the production of some of the lowest carbon? lowest cost Synthetic fuel for aviation that exists We've done the early work on this we've done the concept studies And we've got the thing using biomass sources or renewable sources for for the same out of the park And it focuses it on a sector that has a real challenge in decarbonisation Aviation has a social acceptance challenge and it needs to prove Its ability to deliver on some quite ambitious claim Ames that have been set by the global aviation industry global aviation industry has committed to net zero by 2050 and One of the major ways that they plan to achieve this is through the adoption of synthetic fuels synthetic fuels using either biomass or Renewable Nuclear energy to provide the fuel for the for the planes It's a market that I are to estimates to be in the region of 440 billion liters of fuel a year needs to be produced That translates to thousands of nuclear reactors when you do the calculations backwards by the way and There are very few other options and so the aviation industry is starting to come through and go how are we going to source the energy? for Carbonizing our sector and and that's what equilibrium is is here to do with to develop the technologies that can connect that together and Connect through to nuclear to mean that a nuclear plant can be built on the basis of providing constant heat and electricity To an off-taker and it can provide the commitment the long-term Future commitment that gives the confidence to go and build that nuclear plant And that is true across other sectors as well So we look at how you might use hydrogen production alongside flexible electricity production to again give a constant energy demand to the Nuclear reactor but flex to respond to renewables on a high renewables grid Or to respond to increasing demand for hydrogen for industry through a hydrogen distribution network And so that's equilibrium That's that's what we do is focus on developing these projects and working with both energy sectors and the nuclear sector To to connect together and deliver on that hard-to-abate challenge Ellen, thank you so much, and I really appreciate your point about taking a technology agnostic approach And I think you know especially in the hard-to-abate sectors We haven't landed on nuclear because we're trying to pick and choose you know pick winners and losers It's because that is really the way to get to net zero Amy this is a tough question for you because I know that you work on everything But please give us a brief overview of the work that you're doing in this area specifically. Thanks, Jennifer so by way of background at Mamie Roma, I'm a nuclear lawyer, which is a thing and I am a partner in global head of the energy practice group at the law firm of Hogan levels my particular specialty Focuses on nuclear power, but I oversee a global practice if cross 46 offices in 26 countries So I get to see a pretty wide view In the nuclear space, you know I think one of the reasons that nuclear has so much promise for Decarbonization and difficult to bait industries is because of its flexibility And so I'm working on a range of projects And for the range of projects that I'm working on The the itch that the that the customer is trying to scratch is different They're all trying to decarbonize, but they all have very different needs And so I'm working on a project to site an advanced reactor at a chemical plant for that project They want the plant to provide both carbon-free power as well as process heat And so it's serving tool for dual purposes And there's very limited number of technologies that they could use to provide the process heat in the range that they need And so they really didn't have another alternative to decarbonize besides this technology that they chose I'm also working with some oil and gas companies that are looking at widespread deployment of advanced SMR so small modular reactors And so for them they are looking for mobile reactors They are looking for floating nuclear power plants and they are looking for kind of a range of applications That is much different than the traditional nuclear that we see today. And so for them It's a lot of initial like how does this work? What does the regulatory regime look like? How do we get the number that we need? How do we deploy them broadly? How do we go and put nuclear on a floating nuclear power plant? Which has has been licensed before but has not been done at least in the United States And so for them that's a that's a different set of issues that they're facing I was talking to another chemical company the other day And they were saying that they need 1.1 gigawatts of power to just decarbonize one chemical plant that they have That's an astounding amount of energy. So for them, they're not looking at micro reactors But they are looking at high-temperature gas cooled reactors because that's also going to provide the process heat that they need I'm also working on a few data center projects that are looking at both advanced fission and fusion and a new course steel project that is looking at a fusion power plant and then finally kind of the to run out the gauntlet of new and innovative projects. I'm working on Ship transportation so to decarbonize the shipping industry with micro reactors on ships as well as space nuclear That's not really a decarbonization issue But when you mentioned aviation, I'm like well, I didn't think about aviation for nuclear so much, but I am working on space projects Amy, thank you so much And I think that that overview really drives the point home that there is truly a nuclear reactor out there for everyone and for every every use case Claire, I'd like to go to you. Tell us more about your work All right, so thanks and thanks for inviting me here today. So yeah, so I'm working for the World Steel Association And just to give you a bit of a background with the Association of Steel Producers around the world Our members are the steel producing Companies, but we also have the national and regional steel associations and institutes and typically we look at issues Which are relevant for the whole industry. We have to make sure that we're avoiding the anti competitive type of topics But we're working with really every region around the world representing around 85 percent of global crude steel production And you know, as opposed to some of the other associations, we do have a lot of input from our Chinese members They're responsible for 50 percent of global crude steel production and to put that into context We have 1.9 billion tons of steel being made every year Around two tons of co2 per ton of steel. So you can do the maths. We're Yeah, we're one of the hard to obey sectors as people call us. So there's a lot of work that needs to be done Um, there are two main steel production routes one, which is all based and that's the one which is the higher emitting process route for For making steel and the other is an electric arc furnace, which is based on On scrap but also can have all based inputs and that's you know A lower carbon emission lower energy intensive route. Lots of people think, okay, let's just switch to the scrap based route Um, but there's not enough steel scrap. I mean it steals everywhere, but it lasts a long time Um, and even by 2050 we think that the we're still going to be making steel from raw materials 50 percent of steel from from virgin iron ore so That's the sort of more intensive steel production route. So there's a lot of Decarbonization energy reduction initiatives that that we need to do So we're looking at the different technological solutions As a global association, it's uh, you know, there's a whole plethora of solutions that we need to look at It's not one solution for everyone There is the the project in sweden, um, which is often talked about which is the hybrid project And everyone thinks okay, great. Why don't we just do a copy paste and use that everywhere else? But sweden has you know access to good iron ore They've also got some good renewables there their blast furnaces are coming to the end of their sort of Their renewal cycle. So it's a bit of a case of you know, it's it's the the perfect storm I think with the new government the the policies there are slightly different now But it's but it's not the solution that can be implemented everywhere So we're trying to make sure whether it's cc us whether it's using hydrogen or electrolysis all these innovative solutions But it's really, you know, I think a lot of the incremental changes and reductions in energy consumption have taken place over the past years And we can make improvements and efficient efficiency improvements But it's real breakthrough technologies and big changes that we need to make Which aren't going to be coming anytime soon But many of the companies are are working on this. We've also recently or this this week signed up to the industrial Decarbonization accelerator the ita if that's the right one there's so many of these acronyms around right now But this is this is really aiming at bringing together different sectors to to try and make the transition faster It's being supported by the UAE cop presidency But also the bloomberg foundation and you know, so to try and work together with with the other heavy industries as well So we're heavily involved in a lot of these different initiatives to try and speed up the the decarbonization of the of the industry Claire, thank you so much. This is so fascinating I think specifically in steel to look at the potential for nuclear to decarbonize and I think you know as we look at nuclear beyond the power sector, which I don't mean to discount at all Nuclear's role in the power sector is absolutely crucial But for the purposes of this conversation I'd really like to delve a little bit into some of the differences that we see in Off-grid applications for nuclear so Ellen, do you think or do you see opportunities to rethink financing? As the nuclear industry moves into these hard to abate sectors and supplying energy for them I think absolutely. It's uh, we're turning the whole of the sort of nuclear paradigm on its head When we're talking about deploying nuclear for hard to abate sectors Um, and we have to really think about the whole value chain Who's the end user of the product or the energy that that we're dealing with and what are their their needs? And there are benefits that can be gained from bringing that whole value chain together So, uh, I think Claire made a really interesting point there about you can't just carbon copy Uh a project around the world and there are some energy demanders and and industries In in the world that can give a commitment for multi gigawatts of energy 20 years out and that gives an enabling function to construct new nuclear with the commercial contracts running back through the the whole of the the chain to help Reduce the financing risk On on the new nuclear power plant one of the the challenges with New nuclear of course is particularly in deregulated power markets It it produces very low cost Energy and it has very little control over the cost of the energy But actually what um, a lot of hard to abate sectors need is certainty Uh over over the cost of the energy so they can make some of these early up front commitments To to help finance the the the new nuclear and help drive down through that cost curve that that we so often talk about and I think, you know, if we we look at the Different varieties of needs across the world. So whether it's uh small demanders Developing countries. I think developing countries is a really interesting area Where you've potentially got much smaller energy demands and you need to collect a few energy demands together To create enough demand to justify new nuclear But that actually you can maybe use that to develop community driven A nuclear that supports the development of new industry In in countries around the world that need this industry to help them grow and help to improve the living standards for for their people and so You can then look at how you might use Um Development assistance and development funding to to support the the growth of nuclear at the right scale Um for for those different demanders And and finally some of these industries are able to invest directly I think we look at the aviation market a lot Airlines directly investing hundreds of millions of dollars into Sustainable aviation fuel production facilities because it is a critical aspect of their existence in the next 30 years And they have the cash to be able to make that upfront investment to seed the production of of aviation fuel and synthetic aviation fuel To meet their future demands And so some industries it can make a massive difference because they can bring the capital that we so Desperately need to be able to finance new nuclear Alan thank you so much and as we're thinking through the differences between On-grid and off-grid nuclear um for finance Amy talked us a little bit about whether the regulatory piece changes as well Uh, so the regulatory piece changes somewhat and it depends on the country that you're in and how those laws are set up And so i'll just give an example In the united states if you are applying for a commercial power reactor You can get get what's a combined called a combined Operating license so it's a combined construction permit and operating license if you are applying for a non-power reactor You cannot apply for a col you have to apply for a two-step licensing process Which is a construction permit and an operating license There was no there's no technical reason for that distinction I think at the time that the nrc was doing the rulemaking for the col process it just thought cols would come in for Power reactor applications, and so I think it was probably an error But that would be like one thing to to update and so that there'd be more flexibility in the licensing regime that applicants could apply to in terms of Things that would require some new thinking mobile reactors raise New regulatory issues that that would need to be thought through floating nuclear power plants again We do have precedent for licensing floating nuclear in the united states, but that was a pretty limited scope Process and it was in the u.s. Territorial waters, and it was never built so there's no operational experience And so when you're looking at deploying something that could be Floated into international waters that could be floated into the territories of waters of a different country Those raised unique issues that would need to be thought through and it and you're not starting from nothing The regulators already started thinking about this engaging with industry and the applications that they they plan on using One thing that was interesting for me Working on a project with an advanced reactor at a chemical plant with the chemical plant needs 99 reliability Nuclear is pretty reliable You know, but they were looking at 95 reliability So they have to over engineer the the nuclear reactor design to meet the needs of their customer And so in cases like that when you're looking at multiple deployments and not just You know, we're all trying to to have the streamline licensing process where you can apply for the same thing over and over again Instead of having a unique application each time you have to think about or what how can I Have a fundamentally similar design across all the different types of applications I have whether they're power whether they're non-power in order to minimize Regulatory change and changing in the manufacturing process as well So there's a number of issues that that can arise all of them are something that can be navigated So when you talk about minimizing those differences, is that on the companies? Is that on the nrc? Or is that kind of a Like an iterative process. How does that work? So if you apply for something and then you go and apply for the exact same thing the nrc will leverage It's existing work the first time around when you have to change it. They've got to look at that delta What does that change that you're proposing? It just takes longer to to do so it drives up review time frames and licensing costs And so if you're really trying to go through a very quick Licensing process at the nrc, you're better off just sticking with the same design over and over again That's where you get to the efficiencies of the end of a kind licensing And if you want to leverage things like a manufacturing license not changing your design and doing a bespoke Design for each individual customer is the is the right way to go So from a business perspective it helps drive down costs helps streamline things from a regulatory perspective Also helps drive down costs helps streamline things Amy, thank you so much. That's absolutely fascinating Claire, what do you see as some of the best opportunities? For the steel industry and nuclear to to work together Okay, so um a lot of people when they think about how to decarbonize the energy supply for the steel industry for the electricity side Think about the electric arc furnace because that's obviously where the electricity is currently being used Um, and often people say, okay, we need to have an increase in renewable energies Um, and obviously, you know, that's sort of looking at wind and solar and everything But we try and say, okay, we need low carbon solutions So, you know, obviously including the this from the from the nuclear side um as as well as the other renewable ones which are maybe less, um, you know able to to to to um um To commit to also, you know always being being available um, but what people sort of also forget is that The the the more energy intensive process the you know when we're making steel from iron ore That's coal based And obviously that's associated with a lot of emissions But the but one of the benefits of of using the coal is that we generate our own internal what we call process gases which we can then reuse as an energy source within the process As we're supposed to be decarbonizing obviously we need to sort of reduce our reliance on the coal Then we don't have our own supply of energy anymore So we're actually going to be increasing the other you know the energy that we're that we're needing from other sources Um, so this is you know, obviously not a not a great thing But it's why we we have an even more increased reliance on these low carbon energy solutions So we won't have that self-generated energy um, you know and also in the in the downstream processing now we're using natural gas as well and and another sorts of fuels so there is a you know going to be a an increase One of the solutions for decarbonizing is also hydrogen. How's the hydrogen made? Um electrolysis Also in the cc us, you know you you can talk about these things and people sort of see it as being Well, let's just capture all the carbon, but you need the energy associated with with all of these different systems You've got all the energy losses going through So I think that you know We're not really in a position to be choosing and saying here We're only going to focus on one type of supply of of energy We really need all the different solutions that are that are available Nuclear obviously is is is also, you know a very viable solution for for different steel companies We've heard from of the new core example. We know that there's lots of companies signing up with You know on individual basis With the different companies and I think it's you know, it's it's a vital solution for for the industry to be able to decarbonize Yeah, so we're we're very much looking forward to uh to sort of seeing this increase Thank you so much claire. It almost sounds like like we're moving into the circular economy Um circular carbon economy territory with this is that Does that feel right like like a like an accurate assessment? In terms of the kind of the idea that you would reuse the carbon that that it would be put forward, you know, again Yeah, and they well, I mean because that's what we're currently doing with the with the processes But as we sort of you know trying to get rid of the the carbon mean you need to have carbon within steel Right, so you can't get rid of it rid of it totally Um, but it's just yeah finding these sort of new solutions these breakthrough technologies and and the different solutions that we can have to To yeah reduce our emissions quite significantly from the two tons of co2. We have per ton of steel Wonderful. I mean it just seems like such a fantastic opportunity to really I think make a difference in getting 10 at zero and I want to turn from the opportunities a little bit and talk a little bit about some of the challenges Um, ellen, what do you see as as some of the biggest challenges as we try to move nuclear off-grid? I think there's a there's a large variety of challenges I think one of the biggest challenges is actually building that engagement with those end-use sectors At the moment the the nuclear sector Is very sort of focused and tunnel vision around power And building nuclear for power and not realizing that using nuclear for other Aspects can actually have benefits back on the justification and the build out of nuclear And opening ourselves up to the the full spectrum of energy demands Overall increases that the demand for nuclear and the interest for nuclear and that requires Feet on the ground speaking to the different sectors Speaking to airlines the steel industry to future hydrogen demanders to to understand their needs and and Bring that together and bring the value chains together But I think also something Amy said was was quite pertinent is is the reliability aspect And we need to make sure we're thinking about how we bring the systems together That deliver that reliability So for example if a plant requires 99% Reliability are we perhaps going to have a system that is Semi grid connected So its primary energy source is is nuclear, but it perhaps has grid reinforcement for Scheduled maintenance or unplanned outages that ensure reliability for the ultimate demander and Give that assurance that that is needed to make that commitment Or perhaps we need to go for multiple smaller reactors to be able to Schedule bringing those offline at at different times And that goes back to the we need to spend a lot more time than we do at the moment Understanding the requirements and the constraints on those industries And we need to then think about as much as possible. How do we take that back to a consistent Interface for nuclear because if we can make that consistent interface we have more possibility Or more likeliness that we can achieve that end-of-a-kind regulatory state where we say Well the nuclear reactor's interface to the outside world is consistent It provides this amount of heat this amount of electricity over the fence to another system that deals with all of those complexities of Connecting into the grid connecting into the ultimate demander flexing between different different uses But there's a lot of work in thinking about how that system comes together To be able to give you the constant demand that can then build that regulatory confidence to see repeated Regulatory approach to to new nuclear build out and reduce those long-term costs Alan thank you so much, and I think it again really drives home the point about The importance of getting to that end-of-a-kind And I think just how different the industry could look even in the next five or 10 or 15 years Then right now Amy from your perspective and again looking at all of these different types of reactors and all these different use cases What do you see as some of the biggest challenges? so When I am oftentimes talking to companies I refer to the nuclear reactor as the box because Everybody has such different applications And a lot of these companies have never been involved in nuclear before and so they're trying to figure out Well, how does this interact with my plant? Where do I put it? How do I need to think about it? And so I'm like all right. Here's your box Here, okay. You want to put it in a chemical plant? Let's think about what the nuclear part of it is Which is the part the regulator has to come in and oversee you're going to rely on an outside vendor Who's going to come in and supply that? They may also be providing an operator for it. Like how do you think about your box? And then how do you think about your rest of the plant? So how do they interface together? How do you need that to work for your plant to work? What are your needs to work? So those are some of like the challenges of like the implementation Other times it's Okay. Well, you're the oil and gas industry and you have like the permean basin and how do you? Move the technology to where you need it and how do you streamline the licensing reviews particularly for things like micro reactors That have you know smaller boxes much more contained box How do you interact with the regulator to help streamline that process? So again, you're using a manufacturing license process, but then you have to go and apply for a site specific license What is your site? How do we need to start thinking about this defining this? Can we figure out like a plant parameter envelope so that we don't need to reevaluate safety or environmental impacts? Because you can show that there's really no environmental impact so we can help streamline that licensing And so a lot of the challenges are how do we? Deploy it so that it can work with the different range of technologies that it needs to work with How do we deploy it so that it's a streamlined process? So again, we're being able to leverage our existing review and we're not redesigning it over and over But then also how do we get? The regulator to a point that it can dovetail nicely in with what the intended use and applications are Commensurate with the type of risk that the facility would introduce and so you can't really get to that phase Until you get to nth of a kind. We've never gotten to nth of a kind We have no idea what that looks like we have this this dream vision in our head of what it will be But we need to get there in order to know how we can make this work But you need to lay the foundation now people aren't going to Go and invest in a first of a kind facility over and over and over again They want to know if they're making that investment that they can leverage it And there's an economy of scale that they're going to get that really makes the business case makes sense Amy thank you so much absolutely fascinating and I want to go to the other side of the coin Which is of course the customer for nuclear energy Claire what what do your What do your member companies tell you are their challenges and what do you need from the nuclear industry? Yeah Okay, so I think that one of the main things which from our side is is the perception Of using nuclear and whether it's you know Often it's not classified as an environmental Solution or a green solution or a good solution And there's the sort of you know and the political side behind that we have quite a number of members from from japan So obviously the incident which which happened in japan a number of years ago Was you know for them a huge issue and it sort of then had a repercussions on on the rest of the industry So I think that that's You know and the perception whether it's accurate or not you're obviously the experts in the safety side But but but this is how it's perceived And you know people being worried about the risk about the safety aspects behind it And so I think you know if it's in a well regulated environment then then you know obviously that's that's quite key The other aspects I think which you know, maybe of concern. There are some countries Which obviously don't don't allow nuclear But in other countries where the nuclear doesn't yet exist Then the the time that's necessary to build The necessary infrastructure is is quite long So, you know, obviously with the steel industry a lot of the breakthrough technologies They're not short term either But I think you know part of it is be able to say okay if we need some lower carbon energy today Nuclear isn't going to be the option if it's not already Available and if you know other people are not already using it So I think that the part of it is in terms of the time that's necessary to to get it installed But yeah speaking with our members that I think it's it's Sometimes is it a company position or a personal position in terms of whether people are for or against the nuclear compared to sort of many of the other lower carbon solutions But I think people really understand that that is it's it's not really a question in some countries that is that is definitely needed Claire thank you so much and I think that's really um Highlights a point that I was making yesterday on a panel with Talking about Canada's choice to include nuclear energy in eligibility for green bonds And so when you see policies like that that do include nuclear as as a clean energy source Coming from governments. It's so powerful and it sends such a message. I think to industry and to and to individuals as well I also think it's really crucial that we're having these conversations about nuclear energy Front and center in the middle of the world's premier climate conference So Ellen could you comment on on just the significance of being here at COP and and having this discussion? Yeah, absolutely. I mean The the fundamentals to decarbonization is about how we move away From taking oil and gas and fossil fuels out of the ground and that requires new Not new but a significant increase in the capacity of other primary energy sources renewable and nuclear to replace that If we are to minimize the demand for technologies for such as carbon capture And minimize total carbon going out So it's really vital that that nuclear is part of the conversation here because going back to Claire's point about perception It takes time to speak and engage And let people get comfortable with the concept of nuclear in their own time You know, we we we talk often about educating people about nuclear. I'm never comfortable with that I like to think we engage On nuclear we're here to have a conversation Because ultimately all of the those of us that work in the nuclear sector Have probably been on that journey ourselves at some point We've sort of started out wondering a bit about what this is Learning more about it learning more about the impacts of radiation the safety culture How nuclear actors work that the benefits for for the environment And so being part of COP is a great opportunity for us to Engage in that conversation and help other people go on that journey and go on that exploration And come to their own conclusions and hopefully come to a conclusion that that nuclear can be of benefit to their needs and that They they they need to to work to to bring it to their sector Alan, thank you so much and Amy the last time that you and I were at a COP with a number of others in the audience We were at a very beautiful castle in the Scottish Highlands But very far away from the center of where everything was was going on what Of course now today. We're sitting in the blue zone at COP 28 What to you is the significance of nuclear moving moving more towards the center So I think there's been a significant evolution in the discussion And the number of people having the discussion around nuclear And so when I first kind of entered the nuclear industry The conversation in the united states was about building some large-scale nuclear reactors and the price of natural gas dropped Then Fukushima happened And then the conversation really shifted for new nuclear towards advanced reactors. And so I'm having more first-of-a-kind conversations Every day my phone is ringing and I'm having a phone call with a new chemical company a steel company a data center a whole range of people that I've never talked to before and To your point that a lot of the conversations are I I don't know anything about nuclear How do I need to think about this as a company? How does the risk work? How does the liability work? Who owns it who operates it? Like I don't know how to own a nuclear power plant. How does this work? Is the regulator flexible? Do I need to figure out all these things right off the bat? So a lot of it is is still Introducing people to how the industry works and how it could dovetail in with their industry And I think jennifer to your comment that we were on the outskirts last time And now we're kind of right in the middle and and we're really in the middle It's not just this event. It's a number of events over the course of the entire duration across a range of organizations And I love seeing this topic Industrial decarbonization decarbonization and difficult to obey the industries because that's the next evolution Of the conversation beyond just power and some of the first-of-a-kind projects that i'm working on Aren't power for electrons to the grid, right? It's for power for decarbonization for an industrial process because there's so few alternatives that many of these companies have And there's a will and a drive within the company to go down this decarbonization journey And so I think uh, we're in for a fun time Amy thank you so much and I absolutely agree and in fact a colleague of mine even went so far as to call this the nuclear cop Um, which I think is hopefully accurate. Um Claire talk to us about the role of industry at cop and how important it is for industry to be here and engaging Yeah, well, I think I mean being industry day today. I think it's uh, it's very exciting and very busy day for for us as As the steel industry Um, but I think it's really key. There's there's so many people who are talking about decarbonization You've got you know governments. You've got poly you know doing the policy side. You've got the finance Sector, but but you know, but I think sometimes people tend to exclude the industry We find in some of these discussions where they're busy sitting there making the policy And it's quite frustrating because it's you know We are here. We're we're sort of happy to be engaged and we and we know and we know that we need the help Right, so it's so it's not just up to the steel industry to say okay We're going to decarbonize ourselves We need their support from the from the energy sector because we use a lot We need the support from the policy makers to help drive everything in the right direction We need the customers obviously to be there ready to say okay. What are their demands? Are they really wanting this low carbon? um Low carbon emission steel we need the finance to be there So it's really key that we're engaging across all sorts of different sectors whether it's you know energy finance and whoever And it was interesting when you said about the the the canadians and the how they're defining nuclear as being One of the green options because it's it's not the it's not the case in all of sustainable finance um and you know and we've seen there was um The development I think of one of the iso standards where some people just dismissed it Well, of course it's you know, of course nuclear can't be included and you're sort of thinking okay It seems quite a narrow sort of vision, but it's like you said we need to engage more um But I don't think we've really got time No, we've got time to engage but we've not got time to let people sort of sit back and think Okay, you know and we need them to engage faster and to sort of be whether educated or engaged or how However, that's going forward because otherwise, you know We've maybe some people think we've run out of time in the whole decarbonization debate And I think that we need to just I know poke people a bit harder and Throughout all of the different sectors to help, you know, we're all moving together You know and and it shouldn't just be about well I'm better than you or whatever it's it's about you know industry and energy and policy and everybody Moving together at the same time Well Claire, I absolutely agree and I think it's a wonderful call to action that we have to act now and act together Um, and with that, I believe we're out of time for just for this panel Um, not out of time for climate change, but um, please join me everyone in thanking our panelists Thank you all and I look forward to seeing you all again soon