 structure by providing tools, resources, utilities for the different project areas and subgroups to increase communication and participation across the project, which is kind of a mouthful. But we have nine different primary methods that we use to kind of, the nine different methods to the madness. So these are all the different areas that we help contribute towards. Messaging is regarding specific marketing initiatives and outreach that coordinate across subgroups. Some examples of this was the recent Fedora Loves Python marketing campaign, which was a cross-subgroup collaboration between design, marketing, and commops. Who came up with that idea? We helped when the idea was coming forth, we just helped with the marketing side of it. But who came originally out of the idea? It was in commops with the marketing team. And then storytelling is dealing with communicating the story of contributors for contributors, particularly with the community blog is the best example of that. Badges, we help handle with the strategic planning and administration of Fedora Badges. An example of that is going to be the onboarding series, which I'll get to in a minute. Fedora Hubs, which will help with the eventual administration and tending to Fedora Hubs. And that's definitely going to be a large area of impact going forward for bringing in new contributors and helping retain them and tying all the different parts and fields of Fedora together. For the Wiki, we also help garden the Wiki and take requests from other teams. So currently, I'm building a tool to identify the redundant pages in Wiki. So most of the pages in Wiki have same information across different pages. So I'm trying to build a tool to identify those pages using some sort of metrics. Let's see. And then we also work on metrics, which is the next topic. So we try to generate metrics to understand the community. So till now, I've worked on some metrics to understand the impact of attending Fedora events on the activity of contributors. And I have also generated some metrics regarding women in Fedora and Outreachy and other GSOC intern statistics. Yeah. So there's another team member like Sachin Kamath is working on the intern stats tool. So and then there was a year interview report for different kind of teams. So we worked on metrics for that. So yeah, so we basically generate metrics to understand the community. Then there's elections. So we also help the Fedora release manager for monitoring the elections like basically with all sort of stuff like posting it across channels Wiki and whatever help he needs. And then there's some other miscellaneous stuff which just doesn't fit into it. An example for that one was recently there was an issue between communication about the design team had some frustrations about getting design resources and the ambassadors have frustrations about getting design resources. So there was a bit of a communication breakdown for that. And we helped, we're looking at trying to find ways to improve communication about that. And we helped write the guide that will hopefully eventually be used in other ways too for a long term vision to help make it easier for ambassadors getting assets for things like banners, resources and different art assets that we need in the field. Oh, and then also the culture side of it as well. We help with the diversity team with the work that they're doing over there. One of the recent events was the Fedora Women's Day. That was one of the events that happened just actually earlier in July. And we helped with the planning, the reporting and assisting with that. And so there is a few, back in June there was a full council report meeting with the full come out report and that's all on YouTube but since that's about how long the panel would be it's like a 50 minute video we won't watch it right now. But you can check it out. Yeah, and the link will be available. I'll make sure to share that. So why are we here? So the two things that we really would like to talk about the most is looking at onboarding for new areas of contributing to Fedora. Looking at the different areas that people find success in as well as the areas that people aren't finding success in and ways that we can improve that. Sharing some of those frustrations and then finding ways that we can support each other with bringing in new members and keeping them in the project as well. And we also like to do a little bit of planning for the future regarding elections as well as getting an idea for future tasks to incorporate into future come-ups, works are fad or a virtual fad too and to help kind of create a vision for the future as well. And we'll also have an open floor for anyone to bring ideas to us as well. So for the onboarding process, some of the work that we've been doing is helping create guidelines and directions for newcomers to get involved in different parts of Fedora and the objective of doing that is to prevent it from being too overwhelming and confusing as well as unclear about how to move forward for new contributors. Some of the work that we have been doing already is with the we started with our own team. We've also been assisting with the modularity working group and we're working with infrastructure now to identify clear points and steps to bring those new contributors in as well as to help make it easier for them to get started. So we also, we're working through that with helping the sub-project identifying steps to becoming involved, converting those steps and do with resources like badges, newcomers can pick up and it makes it easier for sub-projects to gain new contributors and also to keep them. Yeah. How this happened to practice? Who of the infrastructure team have you been talking to? How the coordination happened and so on? So for that, with infrastructure they have their process lined out for like the steps that they have for contributing getting started with infrastructure it's all there's a Patrick gave a talk on it last year and so we're looking at their steps and we identified a few series of badges that particularly deal with kind of a general area of contributing so there's one called it looks at mailing list activity another looks at get commits and pager and those would fit into a kind of a step-by-step process for infrastructure. So I think we originally reached out to Patrick who provided us with some resources from like last year's flock about the getting started with infrastructure at the state of InfraTalk last year and so those are some of the resources that we're working with to identify those steps. Can you give us a circle group in Finora that's saying my particle thing is fighting the specialist group approach you and get help? Yes. Because we have action trouble in this area with our particle group. So is it okay for each director to do that? That's actually what we want. Yeah, I know. So what's the best way? Write to the mailing list? A mailing list or a ticket is the best way for it to get on our agenda. So like I'll show in a minute we actually have so part of what we've done before this is an example for the the commops onboarding steps for a context of what were like the numbered order of events to become a member of the team and the example I wanted to pull up here was some of the work that we've already done. Can you go across the step? Sure. I'm really surprised how easy it is to join the infrastructure team that basically looks like a self-service there's no dispensaries. That's all. I'm sorry, sorry, sorry. That's by design should be easy to join. That's the same. And so the thing I'd like to show is that there's some of the discussion that you've been doing on this. So in this case we have I'm going to grab the window over. I might just make this weird display a little bit confusing. So we have this ticket here which is kind of our master tracking ticket for all the different sub projects and the tickets that are on our agenda right now. And so in this case we have the commops one which we worked through first followed by the modularity working group and then the infrastructure team which is also in progress. And so you can kind of see that I think we documented this one. So we've been working with the teams to identify those steps like when the modularity working group came to us they were trying to get started because they're relatively new so they were trying to get more people involved from current contributors to new contributors. And so when they reached out to us we worked with them to identify the preliminary steps that people do to get involved with their with the working group and we helped work through getting them like a batch when someone's sponsored in their fast group. And so by doing that and then publishing where they have their steps online they're on the wiki right now but long term they're probably going to be moved somewhere else with Fedora hubs which I'll get to in a little bit. But now they have clearly defined steps for the modularity getting involved with the modularity working group that are relatively easy to find. So that's some of the work that we have been doing in progress and some of the things that we've been doing for infrastructure are more general to the entire project for enhancing the process overall. Like this one was for this one was for being added to a contributor which I think this was by being added to repositories I think. That's the commits one. Yeah. And then hot topic is one for mailing lists and then license to push. I think that was the one for being added to a Azure report. And so the point of these is that they're not applicable just to one project because more than one team more than just infrastructure uses Azure almost every project sub team or subgroup uses mailing lists. So all of these can be applied to any team and this also helps take a little bit of the work off the badges team because they already have hundreds close to hundreds of tickets that are open or in progress. So if we can target like the kind of badges that we're doing to be non specific to a specific or to like a one working group or one team it makes it easier to apply like for these ones they'll be applicable to almost anyone in the project. So for mailing lists that's definitely an obvious one and for Bajur any development oriented groups that could have an impact until they fit into the greater idea of making it easier for people to get involved and to figure out the different areas that they can get started with. And so the things that we wanted to do was having a team specific onboarding process discussion. We wanted to look at who was the teams that don't have an onboarding process and if you do have it, what is it and where is it, how publicly visible is it any steps specific to your team that we could help you out and look into for bringing new people into your team or subgroup or SIG or working group as well as feedback on the existing process like what's working now and what isn't does your team have many interested newcomers or is retainment more of the problem with keeping people there after they introduce themselves and they get involved a little bit and then they drop off as well as any future suggestions for onboarding as well. So I know with the Python work, Python SIG that was one that had I was trying to understand a little bit so you guys have like an onboarding process at all or is it like I'm just trying to understand, I haven't looked into it too much yet. I'm very, very undefined I'm trying to understand a little bit basically it's said if you want introduce yourself on Python that all men with and ask for being edit but it's a slash SIGs, slash Python gotcha so nowadays we change the a little bit so go down that's the Python SIG fast group basically so when someone's first getting involved with the SIG, so they do an introduction on a mailing list to let people know and then that's the stuff that we don't know. The problem was that there was Python SIG mailing list which is Python developed but then a fast group originated the Python SIG fast group and you can give commentators rights for packages to that group so it also has a kind of mailing list that receives all the baczela and commits and stuff like that and people who are in the fast group receive those emails through this list but because of some security issues like CVEs being posted there it has been decided that the list is going to be private and all that I just said was written on the wiki and everybody was like let me enter this secret mailing list I want to know your secret discussions but there was no discussion happening it was basically just like collect this automatic emails but we couldn't communicate it so now on the wiki there is no mention of demanding this at all and we didn't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing and now it says if you make in at least 5 Python packages and you want to be part of Python SIG fast group you can talk to a sponsor and he decides whether you stay or go in on the list okay I'm not sure if this is the right way to do it or not it's still working for us I will talk more about it in my workshop okay so I think in this case having like numbered steps would definitely be one of the places you could probably start with so looking at pull up I think it's probably a better way to do this with the monitors but so probably one thing we could do is by having and one thing we could do right now to help this would be to have creating like a zone we could have it on a zone looking page for now of like numbered steps for getting involved in the Python SIG and from there eventually the whole point of having these numbered steps right now is that in the future with Fedora hubs are you familiar with what's going on yeah cool so when Fedora hubs comes along it's going to be tying in all these different areas of the project together and there's going to be different modules that are identified for or that already have been or are in progress of being identified for all the different teams needs like there's going to be there's some specific ones like there's like a wiki tree one there's also like yesterday there was a talk about the IRC chat one and so when it comes time to like looking at a specific team or a SIG or a working group it's helpful to the hubs team if they it's like an easy to understand way for the other people to get involved so short term like a wiki page is kind of the idea but long term the strategic idea is more towards Fedora hubs and making tying in those things like the steps for getting involved with things like badges would tie in really easily to hubs and so the ultimate goal of which is being and that's the kind of thing with hubs in general too is that it's supposed to make it the work that we're doing in Fedora much more visible and so having like the onboarding process in hubs and defining it now for being created in hubs later on is something that will make it easier to bring those people in long term but for the time being a wiki page is what we've been doing for creating the joint steps so I think if we could like I haven't either pad that I just spun up in we could try to you said that like a person has maintained 5 packages 5 packages then he gets to join the meeting with this thing because there is fighting develop anyone can join it and then there is a second mailing list which is not used for communication and so we just hide that from people because they always thought that there were the secret discussion happens but there were no secret discussions at all it's basically there is a fast group that you can assign for packages so you can say I am the primary contact for this package but fast group fighting sick is a commentator and anybody from that group can comment to this package and then if there is a new baxilla report for the package it goes to the list as well and that's it, that's the only purpose of the list I'm not supposed to post to the list everybody who posts there gets an email go to baxilla develop instead for discussing stuff but people saw the problem was the mailing list was called fighting sick and it was secret so everybody was like why are you so secret are you an open source project you are so secretive and stuff like that and we had a promise to communicate in this so we decided we will hide the information from Mickey and we will not mention the mailing list at all we will only mention the fast group and not everybody just they found it maybe they want to join the fast group for the bash right yeah so if you man can at least 5 packages by the sponsor and I am the sponsor by the way so just random sorry Python modules Python modules Python modules yeah but also like some high ggk graphical application yes but it doesn't say if you have 5 you will end up with being in a group it says if you have at least 5 I don't want to be the group I just want to bash yeah so currently it says if you are interested and if you have at least 5 packages that's just the low barrier so that everybody just wants to see contacts us I want to be a member of Python 6 and then the person actually has to talk to the sponsor and explain why he wants to join and he says I want a bash I don't think that's about it I mean creating the bash for a group is already empty that's the only way to get the bash and so for the purpose of the bash it would be more about kind of exposing the Python SIG as a whole because when people flip through like the badges index and they see the Python SIG or honestly the purpose of the bash was so I can get another batch I don't think it would work better than that so I don't know yeah I see in other groups have badges like KDE, SIG have a batch XFC has a batch so I thought it's easy to create a graphics I will just replace the Python logo and I will create a Python SIG right so you got another batch for making a batch of course and designing and proposing and yeah it's kind of like it grows exponentially if you try so I think what would be helpful right now for this one is if we do like a batch so if you were a new person coming into the Python SIG or if you were looking at someone getting involved what would be the steps you'd want them to follow as we're getting to you definitely want to know why they want to show and we would like communicate with them that this is not some like only you can still be a member of the SIG if you just add your name to the wiki that's the first thing so if you just want to be a member of the SIG join the mailing list or if you don't want to be then you just like an informal member and if you want to be a member of the class group then you have to explain why and it's kind of like a proven package for Python packages but only for those packages where the maintainers decided they will like give the rights to the SIG it's not automatically happening so it's not so strong as proven package but it's not so easy as being part of the something else if you invite people to the group you're giving them privileges in matter of like they can push to other people packages so I think they at least had to sponsor packages that's the first requirement and we kind of decided to put them like have at least five Python packages so we can look at them and see how you maintain them and write them and stuff like that but we don't have a set of rules that says follow these 10 steps and in the end you will be definitely the part of this of the class group and you will hit the back right okay so then I guess the first thing that would fit into you'd want to have an introduction on the mailing list the interaction on the mailing list the joining guys channel you have to fast directly by clicking the button you contact the sponsor and ask the sponsor to be added to the fast group and the sponsor decides by what it means that he will add you or not do you have any kind of sorry ambassadors have mentors they are some rules these there are no rules here because this is a new approach there were even less rules before and we're trying to formalize it a little bit but we don't want to be too like biochemical or biocrats biocrats we don't want to make it too complex like fill this form and then open a ticket and stuff like that we don't want to be cozy and informal but we still won't make it so it doesn't so for example nobody would say how come you are on the sick and I am not I contribute to python infelora more this is unfair and stuff like that so we don't want this to happen it never happened but yeah so it would probably be helpful so when you are spawning someone to the sick what would you say are things that you are looking for like key check marks that you are looking for for their activity or for what they are doing in fedora with python packages if they didn't start packaging yesterday if they maintained a lot of python packages what do you mean by they didn't start so like they have been a package for at least 6 months there is no hard line this is just what I have in my head like I need to check if the person has any experience with python packaging and if like for example I don't know who he is or she and I never met the person then I can look to the data and see oh he or she has been in fedora for years this is obvious I will take the person but if on the other hand I meet the person like face to face the person would have started today but if he comments me that he is the right person for you I will edit it so I still want to give the sponsors a room to like ease their own judgement but I don't want to be unfair so nobody can say this is unfair and non-transparent for us if a person wants to be a python packageer for the first time do they want that if they want to be python for the first time then there are two situations first they start being packages and they are interested in python then they will package python stuff but nothing related to the python so they packaging they could possibly seek packaging sponsors in the python seek through you because it will make more sense they will end up with me again I guess and maybe there are others but I'm not sure or there is a packageer package of stuff for years but never package anything in python if it wants help again the person can reach python seek or the IRC channel for example hey guys how do I do this I will make it python 2 and python 3 compatible where do I look the guidelines are my scene and we will give the person an advice but in that case we want Evan to be fast group immediately but after we decide yet you know your business here right okay I guess there are different scales like the type of packages someone would be maintaining you have a simple the minimum number of packages or having a number on it because you have people might have like 15 packages but there are these really small libraries and someone who has like 3 but there are these huge projects yeah of course so for prudent packages it says you have to download the reviews high quality reviews and there is actually both voting process so you apply to be a not prudent packageer and sponsors it's different sorry this is yes sponsors and other sponsors then they vote in the matter like in prime frame of week at least 3 classes and at the end of the week you need more classes than the minuses and then you become sponsored but this is possible because we have a lot of sponsors but in high quality is like the fast group has 20 members and 4 sponsors so I don't think any vote there is making any sense it's just a rough estimate exactly yeah okay cool and so you definitely want them to have some kind of background with packaging in python of course so you'd probably want to have that somewhere having that info maybe on their user page on the wiki or in the introduction too it would make it easier for you to like be able to tell of someone or like when you're reviewing someone to get into the SIG like what things would it helps to me if they actually tell why they want to join and why they think they should be there in their own words they can obviously lie you want a badge so you think of something just yeah so you will lie about your python experience but then I can like smell this and see if you actually have something in the badge you can you try to find and then everybody would just try so you want the background why they want to join and what is their experience with python in the day in general this is mostly about python packaging they might be excellent python developers but not packages I don't want to high check this so if there are other things you want to talk about having the python SIG down for 2 hours makes no sense we can continue on this I think this is probably open a decade for this I think now that like having this info and knowing about that definitely helps yeah yeah so I think that this is something that we can definitely help with and actually I kind of have some ideas that we can try to do to bring I think I'm on the develop list you are there because you posted when this that was created when you opened up the ticket you suddenly know to python develop list that's how I knew about it unfortunately not many python SIG members were actually participating in the discussion except me so just a little bit sad but yeah I know you posted it there so it's not your fault one hour for the onboarding series and then one hour for the bad ideas and open flow so we still have like 15 minutes for discussing about onboarding I think I'd like to be interested to see what else people wanted to bring up too because I know we have some people who are I can see a number of you who are involved with ambassadors as well as marketing too that's one that I was kind of interested in as well because I think ambassadors is one that's always kind of interested me because I feel like that's one that could be improved for bringing in new people at least I think the way that they do onboarding is definitely different from I mean it's with the whole mentorship process and then how you walk through the page like with the ambassadors list being private by default it's difficult for someone who's interested in being an ambassador to participate on that list or to communicate with other people who are interested or want to help or so on and so forth well you have to be sponsored first it's publicly viewable but you can't participate in the discussion so is there a mechanism how I reach to ambassadors to find other ambassadors I don't want to join imagine a situation you're seeking advice from ambassadors you can still mail to the mailing list that it needs to be moderated manually and who does that does that even happen or not I do it but rarely because of so much spam your email can easily get lost and there also comes the problem too that they're not going to receive replies they're explicitly CC'd on the email too or they're watching so I think one thing that I like short term for the ambassadors I think having like going through the wiki pages for getting involved is five or six like pages with paragraphs and paragraphs of information which is helpful for making sure that someone's really interested in understanding the full process of how to get involved but can also be just difficult to get through and I think having like where somebody wants to get involved with the ambassadors list there's no place for them to look and have like one, two, three, four, five things I have to do to be involved you have to go to five or six different pages navigate through it all I don't think it's a very clearly defined process publicly if you're in the ambassadors you know it or if you're going through the six different wiki pages it's clear so like one short term thing I think would be helpful for ambassadors is making the steps for becoming involved like an ordered series and having that on its own page with more details but it's a click through I mean how can it be any simpler than that if you look at the content on the pages you have I mean it's just so much text and I'm sorry it's taking no the ambassadors group is another beginner's group and if somebody is not able to read a wiki page with more than five paragraphs it shouldn't be an ambassador period well sure but I think the point I'm getting at here is not that to test your attention span it's no serious there's no easy way to tell that from the outside I think it can be made more clear for the steps to become involved as an ambassador because the pages are I don't think that method works that well kind of compromise here what we can do is like here are the rough steps to become an ambassador and now you can read that yeah that's what I'm saying and if you are still interested now go and read the long thing right so test their attention and for example if I'm not interested in being an ambassador but I'm just curious how it happens yeah the list would give me an idea reading the guidelines yes I'm not saying that the guidelines are incorrect or that they're unnecessary some steps are outdated or not we should just read federal magazine every day people are but these are just minor glitches I think that it's not that the process is completely broken and I don't think it's too complex at all might be because you are currently familiar with whether it's we set a certain bar for a reason that's what I'm saying I keep it that way but made it too long for the read version just so people can get an idea the click-through wizard is five pages and actually there is there is a global campaign that outlines this the process of course each of that but otherwise that's the thing you want to yeah for some reason so if you now click through the so so basically if you take the headlines of those yeah continue on clicking then you will see it yeah yes that's a bit weird yeah if you see that there you have basically the overview that should basically be the first this one yeah here you have five steps again that should basically be the this is where you should end up this should be the start okay so I think also having that many pages too it makes gardening it and maintaining it a little bit difficult with like some of the information that was on there so I think maybe bringing it into like a single place would also be helpful just wait for me I have been it was designed like this for a reason and a lot of work has gone into this the people to talk about talk to well you can just look at the pages three who edited these winky pages and ultimately the reason that the people to talk to is Thama the general ambassadors membership administration we as famsco also have some ideas how to improve the process but really we structured not like just change them yeah but again I as a famsco member as somebody who has been around in the ambassadors for nine years and then in famsco for three or four years I wouldn't just go ahead do it I would rather talk to the alos right I mean yeah I wouldn't be suggesting like just going forward and just doing it right there would be discussion for it of course so my impression sometimes is that the comm ops team is a little little groupies and they are very proactive well they are freshmen and they are very enthusiastic and you go forward and it pays and sometimes you don't look left or right yeah you need to be whenever you do something you are basically collaborating with all the other groups in fedora I think you need to be very careful and get in touch with the stakeholders as far as I can see it's something I mean this is just an example I wouldn't be touching it for the simple reason I know how much effort went into it how endless discussions about these things so and if you then come up with some improvement suggestions they will just say come on we've been there we've done that go look it up on the mailing list and we'll have through research who made these archives of emails when you were still in high school or years before you entered the fedora project so yeah sometimes I think it's difficult on the one hand of course we want to have fedora as an open platform and everybody should be able to participate and do their stuff but on the other hand make sure to interfere with what others have done before and it doesn't go like a poll those are yeah you can interfere of course I guess but not like a poll you actually have politics politics and I mean I think the reason why I kind of like zoned on the ambassadors like I think I don't know if I necessarily agree with having the really high bar forum I mean not that what they're doing I mean I don't like the sponsorship the mentorship right I agree with that but like I think the process we're getting involved like I think ambassadors is one of like the greatest and easiest one of the greatest ways for people to get involved with the project because that's one of the ways it's I think bridging the gap between making users and bringing them into the project because actually I would argue that then you have not understood the ambassadors project we have lengthy discussions if we should make it to like at least CLA CLA plus one other group like we won't some people even say we should not allow anybody to become an ambassador unless he or she has to be a member of design or whatever some other group so it's definitely not a beginner's group we want quantity over quantity it's like when you're at an event and people ask really advanced questions we don't want fanboys as ambassadors and if it's just though any fruit I'm afraid that we don't have but you maybe from India you're in Berlin right but as far as I know in APEC they have a problem with the India not just the general that's going on for ages even before the Mozilla reps existed it's that you get a lot of Indian students to apply to become a Fedora ambassador just to get a Fedora project or email address to get the title because it looks like nice on their resume that's why the requirements for the Indian ambassadors are actually stricter on one of these pages that says if you're a candidate from India please make sure that we require you to finish one project first it can be like G-Sort or taking part in the group for each one one thing I would like to say is that it's not just our traditional project we have ambassadors coming in if that is correct you can but it says we don't encourage you to but you still can if you are Fedora contributor if you have been around in the Fedora community for a year and helped in say packaging or comops certainly I don't think the sponsor would reject you just because you are right I think maybe it's the sponsor that they are working for like more than Indiana so they are students employees and they can make those jobs but they are somebody from Fedora the bar is very high on purpose because you don't want to mess with critical infrastructure if you are a newbie you would never reject somebody from Fedora but also on the other hand look at how easy it is to get into the infrastructure FI group I really like that approach because it's a way to get a taste of it and get involved with infrastructure without having RMRF root I really like their approach to doing that because if you want to get involved you drop an introduction and say hey I want to do this and you get read-only access to a and you can see what's going on on there and you can get familiar with the technology and see what's happening behind the scenes and then you find a ticket that you want to work on and who's that? the apprenticeship program I don't know when that it's the FI group but basically it's like the preliminary step for infrastructure onboarding so when you are getting involved with infrastructure you first start as an apprentice and when you apply for that you do an introduction on the mailing list say that you want to get involved the things you want to assist with the usual things and so then but at that step you probably already had to read more information I mean if you tell them I want to work on that you need to know what exactly they're doing at that point you probably read more information than you will ever have to read for the infrastructure so this is the the page that kind of explains the that's not really all I mean you cannot say yeah it is you cannot say I want to work on meshing if you don't know how Koji works and the neuro management works at that point what I kind of like about this though is that it's a beginning step it's not like if you want to be in an infrastructure it's like okay you have to do all these other things first to get involved you can come in without having any background in fedora it happens about every few weeks there will be a new introduction on the mailing list sometimes they stick around they become active contributors other times and what happens is at the beginning of every month an email goes out saying if you're in the infrastructure apprentice group please reply and it has questions to answer I'm interested in being a part of it and if Kevin doesn't get a reply they get removed from the infrastructure group and they lose the read-only access but if they reply I'm saying oh yeah I'm still checking this out or I'm involved or I'm still playing around with things trying to find a ticket to work on they can maintain their read-only access and if they're working on an issue they can get support for that from the infrastructure team do you actually relate this to the infrastructure program? so a lot of other programs I know Mozilla kind of has their own approach to it but I think motivating students to do things on their own or at least and it isn't just students but like the ability to self-organize and not necessarily I I kind of find it easy because a hundred government ambassadors represent fedora and they may not be comfortable for their actions they're going to just go and say things which do not have any way so that has fedora behind it power right right so you have to be very responsible of what words and views are not used and that is going to make any a guy who is new into fedora and who may mess up with some test machines did not hamper any public instances or something like that because everything is a sandbox but here what do you mean the sandbox should be how do you like that person so that he works in a like a container just like a container but in order to be his actions as a fedora representative has to be on the phone I'm not saying that that idea is bad but how do you translate that idea from fedora to ambassadors isn't the mentor program similar but obviously when you are trying to become an ambassador you have to be more responsible on your shoulders because it's here to present a fedora it's not something you can go and play around in front of the public so you have to be very much possible about the thing you say but then you have to be coherent with the mission of fedora and that will come only if you keep it for a long period of time if you can find some sandbox environment that is good but I don't want to be an ambassador if their goal is just to become an ambassador I think the goal is small but if they want to be I would like to say that because I would like to imagine for everyone to advocate the things that he does and likes so he has to like the project and he has to do something exciting in the project he is excited about can go and then speak he doesn't even need to become an ambassador I think that speaking in a local environment and having some kind of experience before that whether it's like not as an ambassador but let's say it's like getting a talk on something in fedora like hey here's this if somebody becomes a translator or somebody becomes a doctor or somebody becomes has at least one package in fedora and he is the second one he can ultimately go and speak to his peers like classmates or people that's why he has to get into fedora via any other things than ambassador and if it's really during his work I had got juniors to start their careers as translators because they have not put that programming but now they're programmers but they started and like yeah and they really bring to the translate a prerequisite for them and they can have transcripts very easy to get on transcripts and transcripts but you have to do something for the community so that's why like just I think ambassador is one of the first one and three and that's where I think most of our web forums has gone wrong because they don't think that I can get most of the translators even without knowing the other principles of a lot of firepots right I'd not say that if you can find a sandbox in drama like because the mentors do not have so much time to go and like go to everyone who can be an ambassador so but if you can have somewhere that's a sandbox environment if we have gotten ambassadors in a college he can maybe before he gets out of the college he can train someone take him like share his load when he comes to the college and by the time he graduates he can actually have an ambassador ready in the campus but it's not something it's not like he becomes ambassador in a day or month like he goes to the training process and that also depends that that candidate has to be interested in the project right if somebody wants results in like one month one month thing can he come up with a sandbox now like a process like how we can actually make content videos and then turn them to ambassadors definitely this program is very good someone can do this with any project any subject of the develop and then slowly you see that if somebody wants to do the project then ask them to do and get an idea I completely agree yeah it's a tough question because I mean really the only sandbox I could really think of would be things that they're doing on their own locally not directly associated as Fedora but just local advocacy that they're already doing and that might not be the best approach I know in circumstances where like people are making money out of modular because I know people who have rented places and they draw like 30K, INA or a month when they rent out the places in 5K they have particular ratio like that so you don't want those kinds of people to kind of ruin the community right but that has been an ongoing problem in India or in the APEC region we also had some we even had some cases of fraud where people took money from events that never happened and so on so it's not limited to Mozilla but it's for some reason it's always been making it in particular India I don't know why that's why we as like the impressors are very strict about certain things we just had a session in practical and it's difficult to find the right to make the bar high not too high, not too low like we recently managed to grow the Albanian community quite a lot and then I think we are totally willing to invest in that community and power and even money so for them maybe I would be as strict but for the other then in India I would be more strict because we already have an established community and a lot of professors there so it's difficult that's why we still have the sponsors it's like I know that Comops is doing a lot of stuff with technology for example or other groups are doing a lot of automated tasks for example the email that Kevin sends out and every month it's probably a drone job or something like that but you cannot you still need, at the end of the day a human needs to make a decision it's a cut feeling a response like that I think the human interaction for ambassadors especially seeing as they deal with so much human interaction I think that makes sense for that group I'm not saying like remove the sponsorship that's obvious I know you are saying that but what I wanted to say is if you have suggestions on how to improve your process go ahead do it but brace yourself for some people the alienating there will be people who have been around in the community for so long and they will just this new guy, what is he to tell us about and to some degree you can understand their point of view I can understand your point of view if you want whatever is taking to happen if you want to be productive if you want to enable others to be productive and so on you need both sides also the old parts sometimes are too narrow minded it has always been like this we keep it this way it's not just right now I do not exactly on the part that actually in India currently the situation is that the number of ambassadors in South India is not less because I was in the district of North Kerala so the events in Kerala stopped happening so actually I should have created an ambassador in that place before coming to a different city so we need to have more continuous community but what is the best approach to connect more college events or go to work as the idea comes to me how do we do that because I am also living in Kerala because I work on projects in the weekends but an organized effort has to be made because I see that what happens in college people volunteer and how to follow the work we are the hundred and one meter so we go there we come back from there but are there any follow ups for the people who are not in the community we I do not see much cases every time popcorn happens I do not see very few facilities that we saw last time because we invest a lot of money to have popcorn or even like that we need to have a proper follow up strategy that we can but what happens in a college and in different colleges every year so atleast you should ensure that 10% from that college should come and stick with the community and what is the strategy to make that happen because I see that so you want 10% of all new newcomers who are onboarding the school to remain in Kerala atleast 10% or maybe like less than 1% but something like that because otherwise you will see that popcorn we do only for the community to get in and meet with each other that is only a place for us interacting with each other but like what about spreading the number of community there is so I think one of the focus of the event should also be that that we have to increase even like that happens right but mostly the communities go there and they act together but we have to also think as you know should be there that we can get people to do this as well but half of it is that we reach the college through the professors or like we reach the local clubs in the college or we reach other corporates because many people in corporates many people are not happy with the jobs maybe they would like and love but what are the how to best put your energy so that we can like ease them properly and convince them not convince exactly like spreading message like we are doing some food stuff you can do for example we have people we can take sessions we can take talks and we can teach friends and all the stuff which students love but personally I am not that people person I can work these stuff but like yeah setting up the communication which take hold of the professors and all I can do that but like yeah I am not the best person for that but yes once the things are set up and like yeah we need to take classes we can do that but yeah we need to start some movement because currently although very strict number of contributors are very less in India but we want quality right so then there is probably in the way that is communicated for people to get involved and then since what you said about people changing all the time too so it seems like there is also an issue about retainment there is too overtime so I guess the next step would be to really kind of identify so what happens in the life cycle of a contributor at what point after the event for the retainment side at what point would they become less active and was there a certain event or is there a certain time period that after so long they stopped contributing or they stopped being involved with the project or did they just decrease what they were doing and then just dropped off I think we already started I mean the work that you've done is already a very good starting point yeah I think we need to further go down that road like the first step for me was would be so we figured out like 50% leaving after three months or so yeah so for me the first step was would be to identify what have they done before they have that if it turns out they have only edited the wiki then okay yeah okay but just an example if it turns out they only edited the wiki then disappeared it was probably just a spammer and it's like we shouldn't cry here if it turns out that this they have tried to enter this or that group and haven't succeeded basically we have a problem with the onboarding process there so let's try to find patterns I'm not sure how much time you spent on that already and how much time do you have to work on that but if we figure out patterns and also I like the idea of a survey somebody came up with the idea of a survey we figure we realize you're no longer active in the police cells and it needs to be like not a survey only but an email that tells you who would like to take part in the survey fill out the survey and give us some feedback to improve and if you have any problems that you would like to discuss with the human here's who you can talk to so it shouldn't be like not going to be a podium and the thing is that I've shared some experience from Python here so last year I think last year we had a program called Python Explorer so one movement was Python we started with small small events in various colleges around the area so that it's not the students from the city that comes to the event but people from from parts of the country they also inspired to come to Python which takes place in the city so that even actually draws more people than just the people in that particular event that is happening so we have more the number so the probability of getting 30 percent increases of people joining the Python movement maybe you can have before Python you can plan a series of events maybe one event in two months maybe something like that and people can take turns and go to places so that you have more awareness and things get cleared up for the Python students or people from different parts of the cities so that we also get leaves as we go to different cities because mostly in India, there are many who are already here we need to research the other cities like as you said we need to go to other countries as well similarly we need to reach out to places which do not have a red hat office so if you can like connect small micro-events in colleges we can draw those and have a small club open in that college and so the number of people will drop out that is very it can hold or actually is that one right there but we do need that we need someone on the field so I think probably coming up with a list of action items from all of this would be helpful I think you can add the quantity of whatever you discuss we should increase pairs not that I will just add just the small good colleges in near the city and then I will have one day I don't know I think rather reaching out to the students but professors are not always that welcome I know that that's why person can actually some sort of official I think a software engineer that is a I mean some manager yeah I know if you are not a manager okay gotcha so on my service yeah well I think now we are in the last 40 minutes so I think I would like to spend the last 40 minutes going over creating some action items out of this as well as covering a little bit with elections too I mean dig these back up again so some of the things some of the other last little things we wanted to do was coming up with action items like for the ambassador discussion and the python sig discussion these were things that were kind of at least for ambassadors we had we were aware they wanted to go into and pursue so now we kind of have the background we hadn't really started on looking at looking at ambassadors yet we kind of have this background information I think adding to that with some of this discussion that we had today for creating a proposal or just coming up with a way of going to tackle that one that would be helpful for ambassadors python sig putting that one on the agenda would be helpful and that would be a little bit of brainstorming and tickets and that would okay so those two I think are definitely probably the biggest action items with condensing the information from the ambassador's discussion down into something that's like bullet points same for python sig I think we have that for python sig now and then one other thing that I'd like to talk about too or we would like to talk about is the fedora elections is that was one that we held with in December or so yes so we were thinking of ways we could improve water development I mean in the November December cycle and we wanted to implement some of it in the current one in the summer cycle but we it was impossible to implement but we were so but we were thinking about having some sort of some sort of talks or surveys of why people are in tyranny are like in heat just like veggies dang just there's one thing we saw was that whenever we sent out like reminder these or something it's there was suddenly a peak in the number of quotas that there the next day so are there any suggestions apart from another coming up with ways I think also with improving interaction between the candidates in the community so it's not so much as in some cases you know some people even put out interviews but it's not as much as like oh do they have an interview I'm going to read it maybe they follow up questions like what ways could be improved how that's communicated and letting people interact more with candidates and make it a more engaging election experience do you have any suggestions how to do that well some of the things that we did for so the one the election that happened in December was the fourth most participated in election in all of yeah and some of the things that we did were like improving communication which was one thing that had an impact with how often it was communicated using the community blog published the interviews and I think the one thing I kind of picked up on at least in December was that the questionnaire form I mean it's on the wiki but I guess it's not communicated as well that that's a thing that's available and there unless you when you get the original email about election time you dig into it then you go like oh and then here's this page about the questionnaire I don't think that's I think coming up with more engaging ways for people to put out their own thoughts for you know what questions they want to ask the candidates and what issues are at stake where it's like putting up a list of like things happening that are would be affected by this election like so like if it was a FAMSCO one you could say here's like information like so it's FOSCO and other things happening just some added context for that and then someone had questions relating to that like oh you know what is all this and how would this part work or they could submit a question because like the interview questions for the past two elections were the exact same they had yeah yeah I really find myself at questions at questions and then answer my own questions yeah so I think that's not right so I think there's probably ways that we could try to better communicate the availability or even maybe a different method like instead of having like a wiki page and especially now that the wiki is CLA plus one with the spammers like that that's isolating a lot of people from contributing I think that getting the interviews out to the people is the most important part and I think we have or you have already done a great job with whoever did it on Fedora magazine that should prove things quite a lot I think one thing we did in the past were the town hall meetings yeah and that didn't really work out or at some point there's time zones well as always with the meetings we have time zone issues even if we managed to but we solved that problem by having different town halls like at least two different appointments so we are sure that everyone has at least one in his time zone but otherwise it's hard to find the also I think the election ranger just goes ahead and says these are the two possible times please show up if you ask all candidates when is the four that will end up nowhere right and then the turnover in terms of the meetings was also not satisfying not satisfying so then I'm trying to think of some different ways that we could try to have people collaborate with adding questions we could even I'm not sure if we have a policy using social media but there's the community folks group on facebook and we can post interviews there or we could make virtual questionnaires there yeah we can do polls on the facebook page we have a fedorical community on google plus too but I'm not sure if we want to go down to the social media plus it's a different audience too we definitely have a contributor audience there too but it's also the mass hordes of all the users too yes I like the idea though I like the idea but again raise yourself for some people who are yelling at you can we have polls on the phone can we definitely definitely I guess my question would be what would be the form of taking the questions we would press comments and he would be like comment with ideas for questions and we would just promote the article commenting on the asking questions or even on facebook if you share the link to the article and you can leave ideas for that would be one way to take it can you probably aggregate everything in the wiki first then people can fill up is it done by wiki or sending emails to the candidates for the questionnaires or the interviews for the questionnaires or the interviews the questionnaires all in the wiki and then you just take those questions and answer them in there I think it's email first and the rangle puts it on the wiki because otherwise people would just copy what the previous guy candidate has said for the past two release cycles it's been taking the person publishes it they publish the draft on the com blog and then an editor reviews it and then pushes it out I feel like if somebody were copying blatantly I feel like that would be it was just over the past two release cycles it was mostly I mean it's up to the candidates it's up to them to log into the com blog it's the same form because there's still a human interaction there they can't just log on to the blog and just publish it there's still a green light that they go through so I guess it's just a different method to the same way as before but I I think we could probably aggregate some of the commenting having it aggregated in some place would be useful yeah also I'm actually a year old having called to the wiki but it seems we would need another WordPress plugin for that can you help service after the election and need for help improving the work that you have do we get feedback come back to the hand who do you want to interview like the people who wrote it or who didn't go for like general engines well getting feedback definitely helps always helps I'm afraid the feedback will be something very specific where everyone with a cycle doesn't necessarily have an idea of how to improve further connections batch is missing on the list well I mean actually in all seriousness having a batch for voting that was do we have a I voted batch that is an interesting thing because I think I remember seeing on a list somewhere the reason why we don't have one is because if you if you vote there can be a checkbox I am okay with getting the batch and privacy well this goes to information that I have voted but it will not disclose the information well the problem is I think in the voting application that data is not even saved I think there's a list of I mean there's obviously an account voted right but the information like like who you voted for isn't saved so that's right so that's not and I think and I think the thing with that too is that well then like if someone votes and they get the badge I think there was a concern about like the suggestion I read was that after the election so at the end of the election there's like a hook that's pushed where all the people who were voted would it would be triggered and they won't receive the badge after the election window closes I'm trying to remember what the privacy concern was with why like doing it at the end versus yeah I think that was something I learned those lines right information because otherwise so we have well actually we have we have I voted the sticker yeah they're blogs so I guess they should be okay with getting it back I'm sorry about the privacy that I don't see a problem there yeah I mean I think if it were the method like after the election closes then I don't I'm even an opt I guess I could maybe fit in with the discussion about like well actually you want the actually you want the badge to show up immediately because you want to encourage others to vote yeah and I don't think that like yes of course if somebody sees the intermediate results if the intermediate results are public then after the first person votes you will see that but they are not public they are not intermediate how about we make like the earlier you vote the more you vote counts because there's more time to see that you know if you won in the first second you got 7 the voting period is 7 days if you vote on the first day you get 7 times or what if we send now like a mailing list after every day like 90 people voted today or like 50 people voted today something like that yeah that would be cool but on the other hand it can be pretty depressing well on some days like on the first day when elections open it's usually at its highest and I mean it's down and then on the last day it goes back up it would have to have some kind of graphical representation like on kickstops basically it's basically the same with kickstops a campaign a lot of people throw money at you and it goes down and down and down and you need to keep your audience entertained with constant updates so that's why I like your idea about the email yeah also some graphical representation please help us getting this far over X percent like the next goal is X many people voted like just something and having that on a very prominent page I'm not saying start or project or work but some actually I think we should have for the start of our project I mean it's basically less than ours as feed but I don't think we publish anything related to the election and because that's for general users election related stuff has been moved because it's only for the right okay really prominent for the elections I believe I think in December like we had like an announcement about the elections on the magazine but like what we found in the magazine was that when we publish like Canada interviews and those kind of things those are the like those are the lowest received articles there's a very low number of people reading and receiving them just because it's a different kind of audience so with the magazine it's a largely like kind of like I think I like your post on like the whole thing on Facebook like come vote on the election kind of deal is you're communicating to a small subset of contributors but you're also appealing to a large amount of just general users which depending on how it's worded or the context of it like the election like the interviews I think is the right I don't think the magazine is the right place for it but encouraging like having the resources like here's the elections here's what they mean here's how you can get involved would be more appropriate for like a social media or a magazine post and then like I do like the idea though about using social media for like people proposing questions too because I actually I really like that idea but sometimes I mean I see why we are separating the magazine and community like users and contributors but what we could still do is like some teaser article on to the wrong magazine because often it's like for example you have newspaper and they have this other thing for certain target user group like I'm not sure what it's like in the US but in Germany you have newspaper that's like the old school newspaper and then they have a spin-off which is more fast feed like or something to attract younger readers right and they just use their front page to also promote their spin-off no and then we would just have a teaser very short after it probably will also get bad numbers in terms of readers depending on how it's approached it's just a small teaser that pushes you over from the magazine to the community and that's something that we do on the magazine too or that we do do on the magazine is we do a pointer post where it's like a very let's say we have a longer thing on the com blog we'll do like a very shortened and condensed quick summary on the magazine with a link to the quick pointer mini blog and that's generally been received pretty well so then the people who want to engage with it open it and if they just want to get a quick read they can get a quick sense of what's happening and it's promoting it but I'm pretty sure we did do that in December for the elections but I don't think I got I don't think I was on top of it for June I know we didn't do anything for it in June on the magazine which is something that I think would actually be pretty being consistent about it would be an effective thing for encouraging people to at least raise awareness about the elections happening for users who are interested I think a badge would definitely be a I voted badge would definitely be a tremendous impact on voting every election and probably one maybe one for voting every release cycle because then everyone's going to vote like in their one election and then there's not going to vote again or they're like ah it's no it's not as big of a deal or you know so going back to the idea about sending out a survey after the election I'm trying to think about what would be the best way because I know the diversity team has like a line survey or something they're using which is I know it's a closed tool but um and depending on what it is especially when it comes to fucking data I'm just trying to imagine like it's like I know great tools for it but it's like I know they're all closed or proprietary and I don't know what kind of I don't think that would send that it's a I guess that we just needed a little bit of extra consideration and that would be one to follow up with Tatika with the diversity team what they're doing what sort of metrics do you want? what sort of metrics do you want? it's like the Neo you know no metrics but metrics? so I guess like the best example that I can think of is community metrics is B wrote a report on FOSDOM 2014 and 2015 and did we do 2016? yeah but I think it was only a month after FOSDOM yeah different sample so she collected she looked at like the people who scanned the badge of FOSDOM for all three years and so she was able to tell that there's the number of people who already had the FASDOM accounts before FOSDOM and look at their activity or contribution levels before the event I want to pull up the is there a blog post? yes there is yeah this one and this is the kind of idea behind community metrics like the things that you all as contributors think would be useful especially I know for ambassadors there's definitely the need with trying to put numbers or something that's not a really number thing but it definitely can go far beyond just since we've already focused so much on ambassadors there's definitely other places it could be applied towards so yeah feel free so for those who don't know about FOSDOM this was about like how FOSDOM attending FOSDOM impacted all the contributors and then we also got the number of newcomers who were onboarded from each FOSDOM but I think from your talk I just realized that in 2015 when were you doing the missions? no this year 2006 yeah so in FOSDOM 2016 they were giving fedora t-shirts so not everybody could get the badge and I think people who were collecting the t-shirts the major problem with that is the data station FOSDOM is very reliable so people who are struggling with that and some of them just get it after like 5 or 6 years I had the same problem with BrickHack I think FAST I haven't really followed it but I know FAST is about to get a huge rewrite FAST 3 FAST 3 FAST 3 is coming but I don't know where to go because FAST 3 is coming and it took 5 seasons and I think at least towards the application of this I think FAST 3 would be a huge help because I had the same problem who were signing up for a FAST account and they were like what is this intuitive or I think it would be useful well I had people like students you're lucky that you were not around in the early days FAST 1 in the early days you needed to download a file the country virtual license agreement sign it with the GPGT and send it back and at that point you basically already every person that doesn't have a GPGT the GPGT so I mean these are some kind of metrics then I also compiled some metrics for promise like how we have been growing what sort of work we have been doing it was for the year interview we were first it was here we put it out on here I think they have more metrics how on yours was it this one or anyway you really want to see I was just giving examples of metrics and what is suggestions from you on what kind of metrics I should work on something you would really like to see something for the themes actually an idea no you would first say we had a Fedora release party 34 different products and I gave them how you can get badges for easy things like giving karma and I just loved to be able to give people like a badge for attending a party a release party there was already badges for organizing one let's have a party but you can also have a badge I attended a party for February and you probably want different badges for different locations because then you have hundreds and hundreds of badges for release parties but then you can create the QR code and check how many what user names already have a badge and after you give them ads you will check this and you will get the user names of people who actually claim to the badge and it will give us information about if the people who are coming to release parties are you interested in the badges thing how many they created that I was just because of that they already have it and if they come there is an extra release party for the next release if it's the same people or different people what can you do what do you see in data when somebody claims a badge I mean can you see like the IP address where it came from just the fast user name that's the fast user name first account name of the badge link to the badge and from time to date already time to date well time zone could tell you something no it's not that it's 34 times well even the times then shouldn't be able to tell you something about the number of events unless you have I mean I must get through these parties at the same time yes but I would expect if we have a release party well it should have peaks when the when they were claiming the badge and that is probably one release party then you could do a nice graphic with the peaks and put cities names on the top of those peaks and say that for example in the terminal everybody when the release party is from renta and has a fast account so it would be like yeah like generally I'd love to see statistics that are based on geography I mean like because like every fast account but can you pass accounts so there are some like there are some topics for pass in data paper but what's like when you create a fast account you can specify where you are from this way like we can where the community is like where we have active contributors we were discussing about this just yesterday so what I learnt was I mean you cannot get that from data paper but I can get it from some other way like when the fast account so that I'm working on that basically some sort of like a global a global map and then the number of contributors for each kind there actually is a map yeah I must see if I can find it it's old it's really old I'm trying to remember that it's an infrastructure I think well there's one in the wiki no it's actually like is that the world map there's like a world map that is auto generated the wiki page is generated from the settings in fast here it is now I don't know if this is based on yes but that's only ambassadors only ambassadors and I think it's I don't know if it's querying from if like because I know you can insert your gps coordinates no it's country country well it knows cities and if I look at India that's the oh you need to update my gps code maybe it's not a batch for updating your gps code well I was thinking about this so like if you're like signing up for a fast account gps coordinates what so I'm wondering if like fast 3 would be a better idea to have something where they can specify their city they're from country outright and then you can obviously protect that if they have the privacy flag on for their account that won't be shared but that might be a powerful way to encourage people to put that information there I don't know why it's not rendering it might just be the network here because it was rendering for me before it might just be something on my laptop I don't think so I think it's just ambassadors right I'm not sure where it's querying I'm still trying to think about where it's getting this information from but like I mean definitely fast but like is it like is it gps coordinates I guess I has to be I guess feels for it yeah hmm so may making it something a little more accessible for like putting that would be a certain follow-up within fast 3 would be to make sure there's like a the gps coordinates thing or field is replaced with something a little more easily interested yeah even like an interactive like hit on the map or like maps is kind of thing hum that would be that would actually be really interesting and then so like where were you thinking G where were you thinking like so with this like if you had like an I like something like a map of like the global contributors of fedora what kind of data would you want to generate with that when you always show the like how many parameters we have for example in body and then for example packages stuff like that would be interesting to have it opened up into like countries or regions to see where we are going pretty well maybe we can but for overall fedora contributors they are not in this yes I mean where you can easily you know identify that someone is active and you can fill packages like testers and for example people who edit weekend those very can easily identify the best that is a good thing or not for ambassadors it's difficult to you know identify an active person every time you are doing something ambassador-y that message so one thing you can do is filter by fast group for that location so for this group it's like body contributors you can see where they fit in or the number of contributors for each fast group I think it would be interesting to look at like globalization especially to see like communities that are active with translations I have my work oh yeah yeah be there a little bit um thank you very much thank you Milo from a circle and plus plus everybody on piracy hey one more and I get my rainbow cookie badge really rainbow already yeah yeah Patrick will probably get there first though how do you do um so we have our coordinates in the past I guess that has to be where it's coming from that map is synodated yeah like I know it's like oh I'm on I can find my city on there so I think it's still maintained or at least it functions but whether or not people are updating that or updating their GPS coordinates or um I mean I got I don't have the GPS coordinates in finding out for years and I'm not showing up oh really there's only one ambassador the guy who was before me so it's like at least six years oh amazing yeah it only lists really old but each of them are probably on a really cool one to do like if you look at translations and like if you have an active pocket that's like a really small consistent but it's making very small progress if you look at that and be like oh here's a community that's translating to um Norwegian or you know whatever and if there's a few people there that's something you can know like there's a community here there's something happening here that could become a larger and a larger effort and it kind of I guess we probably are close to packing up is there anything else we want to show oh yeah speaking of matrix what matrix there's quite a lot of things I would like to see but I'm not sure if we already have them has any of you heard of Bitergia the company from Spain or Portugal they're doing open source matrix they have a whole range of tools which are open source Bitergia I think they once told me that they had spoken to Remy at least and they have really broad range of matrix that you can give Bitergia something like lektak they they do something similar like lektak I don't know what lektak does but it's like well you have a dashboard where you have nice over graphical representation of all that so a lot of things that it probably has done so if they have like a modular architecture you can input all kinds of wrappers but I don't think that the data wrapper integration already exists I mean would enable us to combine all these different sources like they already have wrappers for open source I mean the test parts they make money from consulting and I read the magazine but yeah yeah I mean at this point though I'm kind of like the same thing because it's like well I think in the beginning it wasn't nearly like it is now but like now it's it's like an overpowered marketing I feel like if you pull the magazine away at the marketing list yeah I know there is an objective that's why that's why that's why that's my problem that's my problem that's my problem that's my problem even if they do all the other stuff that's my problem yeah I think in the beginning there is a magazine magazine magazine we bring the magazine and send it to the magazine same thing will be the magazine that's on that's what it is the magazine I don't know if they provide the I mean that was something I I know it's the same thing I mean the magazine does have a problem that's time to do it and while it wasn't probably the case in the beginning so cool yes this is right it's changed this thing started so I think I'm kind of in the same boat it's like it exists already like there is a magazine list there is a magazine fast proof it's all there and in place so it's a matter of pointing if you start or point articles trying to migrate people from point A to point B it would still be a pain I think but it's I think in the long run I feel like marketing is over there are more users in the magazine than in architecture that's cool magazine I'm kind of in the same boat there okay guys she is blue yes before everybody leaves this evening's event the brewery event you do have to have your badge for it so make sure you have your badge with you if you're bringing somebody else