 There's no such thing as being shadow band and J.O. was here to prove it in his conversation, breaking down how he took artists who couldn't get a thousand views on their content to getting millions of views just like that. Now, that's just a little bit of it because J.O. breaks down one small thing that you can do to brand yourself in a way that people won't forget. And I promise you've never heard this trick before. He breaks down a management deal he had as an artist that lost him tens of thousands of dollars. The ups and downs, the legitimate experience from an artist who's in it and gone viral many times over. If you're an artist or manager and you plan to really be in this music thing and you don't check out this full conversation with J.O. now, you are granted later. I can promise you that. What's up? What's up? What's up? I'm Brandon Sean. And I'm Corey. And we are back with another episode of No Labels Necessary Podcast. You can catch us wherever you listen or watch videos, stream, podcasts, here at the intersection of creative and currency. And boy, we got a story for y'all today. Someone who has went from school teacher to content creator, artist, extraordinaire, popping, blowing other artists up. It's the whole shebang. J.O. who is here with us today has lived an interesting life and I think y'all will be able to get a lot. But the subject number one, matter of fact, I want to start off with, before I even let you talk, J.O. J.O. says, ain't no such thing as being shadow band, man. And he has an answer for y'all. It was really going on and he's actually going to prove it to you and speak about how he's helped break some other artists as an artist as well. Talk to him, man. Hey, ain't no such thing as being shadow band, your content's just ass, all right? So, this is something I got to tell myself. I have to remind myself because there's eras where, you know, like my content and my views are going down. And I think I heard Mr. Beast even say like a quote. He's like, replace the word algorithm with audience. And that's how you're going to like frame your mindset when you're making content. So yeah, I've worked with other artists that can't seem to crack the code or figure out what's going on on TikTok or Instagram or whatever it is with content. Cause usually when a video does well, it does well on multiple platforms, but sometimes there's cases where it only does well on one platform, but which both are a sign of something, you know, like there are different audiences on each platform, but yeah, a good video will take off somewhere. So definitely post everywhere. But yeah, I've seen artists that can't crack 1,000 views and can't, you know, get anything to pop and just doing the right type of video we've been able to hit a mil or more. So. Wait, so do you say that so, so quickly? But I think we need to like really settle on that and then get into the how of that as well. You said, hey, these artists can't crack 1,000 views. And then I'll take them under my bosom. And now they're doing a million plus views, right? What exactly is happening? Like there's this one concept, you know, you sent me with a, what's her name, Amy Vaughn or Carissa Bowman. Yeah, that's one I did recently, most recently Amy Vaughn, shout out Amy and Nash, Nash is a co-artist on that song and he's a, he's a big artist. So yeah, they, they hit me up, they hit me up first with ideas and I just gave him some ideas back, like, you know, as a homie and came back and was like, yo, can you actually like take over this campaign? And I noticed like just going through her page, like she couldn't really like crack 1,000, definitely not consistently. And everything felt kind of addy. And I try to remind people like, when you are advertising your music, it's kind of like selling a shirt. Like if every single video is about this shirt, people aren't gonna listen and you're kind of losing your core audience in the first two seconds, cause that's all you really have because the second they see your video, it's like, oh, he's selling me something again. Like you have to give, like you have to give entertainment, you have to give something of value, whether it's educationally or ed, or entertainment wise. So that was like just the first thing I was noticing, everything was just an ad. It was like, she's trying to perform a song and this is this. Same thing with most artists that I see, it's like they're just trying to force and shove their song down people's throats. It's not gonna work. Like sometimes that's not what the first thing we wanna see from you. And you gotta build that rapport with an audience where you're giving, giving, giving. And then it's like, hey, I wanna, you know, now that you've been watching and receiving or receiving from me, can you check out the song? You know, type thing. But that being said, I got hired for a campaign. It's not like a long route. I didn't have time to just build her audience and like let's just do non music related stuff yet. So it was like, the song's coming out. Let's promote the song. So yeah, there's formats out there that are usually trending. So you can really like find and see what's, what you see on your For You page as you're exploring. Like, you know, when you see these music artists promoting what's working and why is it working? And if you can't break down why it's working, then that's when like you kind of need to really get that like radar and really analyze videos, you know, to be like, okay, what's happening in the first two seconds, who is their target audience? Who are the people that are sharing this? Cause why does it have so many shares? Who are they sharing it with? Like what is the feeling that this is giving people and answering those type of questions is going to get your framework around like what went behind that video and what you could put behind your video to make it different. Cause you don't want to steal. You want to like be inspired by art. So I think that was just what it was coming down to this video. So yeah. It's interesting to say that because, yes, there's formats out there, right? But, you know, we, I feel like it's different today where before there was so much on TikTok, especially just ripping the format and iterating the format and everybody was, it would be, everybody was doing it at the same time. But it's a lot less of like these massive things that are all working right now in trending. And more so there might be one thing individually. And there's a couple of other people that'll take that thing. And then there was another thing that's working. Then there might be four or five people that take that thing. And I like it that way cause it's more selective, right? This one, for example, I'll tell you, me and Corey, like both thought we saw this campaign. We were thinking about Johnny Two Falls and ours we worked with and cause you had the sign. And we've seen multiple artists do something with the sign since he was popping with it last year. But it's not like we've seen all the artists do it, right? And arguably what you're doing is nothing like his in its own way. I'd love to hear how you thought about that. And if that was your reference point too. Yeah, I love Johnny. Definitely. I've tried to do Johnny's Demon Style video and try to make it. I tried to do my own spin for my own page cause I was trying to do it where I had people dance. But when they put on the headphones, it's like there's a sniper on the roof for you. You better dance to survive type things. So I try to do like, I always try to make it a comedic twist cause I grew my audience off comedy. So I'm still in my way where I'm trying to convert people. I've been doing that for the last couple of years. So that was my own spin on it. It didn't do crazy good. It did better on YouTube. But that's, that's what I was saying. Like sometimes videos do better on different platforms. But as far as like the style that we were doing with Amy, first person I think I saw do it was John Michael. He's a TikTok artist that really kills it. And then recently High Forrest, that's his app, his artist name is Forrest. He's done it and it blew up like multiple times on IG, literally to a tee. And it's funny cause the editor that I have helping me on this edit, which I could edit it, but it's more so just my time that I have. And it's really hard to find editors that could edit the style that I'm thinking of. The editor that I know actually did John Michael's. So funny enough, he's actually the person in the original video. So it just worked out that I like, I know him, we just shot a few music videos. I was like, yeah, let's work it out. Let's, let's do some of these videos. So he knew the format already and it eased my mind cause like they say the easiest way to, you know, be successful as a business is duplicating yourself. And this has been the best aspect where I really feel like I could duplicate myself in Ross. That's his name. So, yeah, like getting the people that know how, like, you know, in the first two seconds of making a cut, the wording, having the words be big, legible, the zoom cuts and really just the ADHD type editing. Hold up, hold up man. You're zooming through this stuff because this is like how you think normally. My bad, yeah. But I want you to like, since you are touching on this and you like break it down as if you were like teaching us, you know what I mean? Like what are the things in the video? Cause you've been going viral for a long time now. Like how do you do this? Yeah, there's definitely like things like, so first two questions that I always ask myself, it's like one, if someone random was watching this, would they share this video? And two, would they share it with? So definitely when I have a target audience when you think of an idea. So for example, Amy's, the sign is like, what we were trying to figure out, the longest thing to brainstorm was what the sign was going to say. Even though it seems so simple, but the longest thing we had to brainstorm was what the sign was going to say because it needed to relate to an audience and that's what's going to hook people in that relate. And that sign saying, sit here if you're in a situation ship is a great hook. Cause it's like, it's not everybody, but it's relatable enough to where a large majority of people either have been or are in one currently to stay and sit and be there. Mind you. So I'm mainly just talking about the content process. And then I'll talk about like little hacks. I don't really think like hacks alone can make you viral. A lot of people like to focus on the hacks, like, oh, what hashtag to use? What this to use? And this is that. And it's like, that's not what's going to make you viral. That can help like your SEO and getting your video found later and can help like propel your video to the right audience in the beginning. But that alone won't make you viral. A viral video comes from the content side. So I'm going to talk about the content and then I'll bring over the hacks. So content side. Yeah, you want to be able to think of like, what's your target audience when you're making a video and communicate with that. So that being said, in the content itself too, you want to be dynamic and cater to ADHD. Cause not a lot of people, that's crazy. Yeah. You're like, I'm not tripping. Not a lot of people can, not a lot of people, ADHD is crazy. I think it helps that I have ADHD when I'm editing. Cause I'm like, what do I get bored at? And that's a really important thing to do when you're editing. Cause ask yourself, where do you get bored? It's a lot of people's shots, just offer it. Hold up, hold up. Because you got to continue with the train of thought that you were on, but for those who are just listening on the podcast, Jail's talking and fireworks just erupted behind him. I don't know what Zoom is doing right now. I've never seen this, but it's crazy. He looked rather magical. Whatever iOS we on, they have like some things. I talk with my hands and some hand gestures trigger different animations in the background. So I was triggering thumbs ups and fireworks. But yeah, and my ADHD has gone all over the place, but I'm trying to remember where I was at. I was talking about the content side and making good content before worrying about the hacks. So yeah, definitely with like the good content you want to have a target audience in like, for example, I honestly, like even if we did a game where you pulled up a viral video, I could tell you why it went viral. Like that's the point that I'm at. Like that's the easier route to like show people. It's like, cause people think it's all accidental. And especially if it goes viral multiple times, it's not accidental. And don't chase the exception to the rules, chase like the rule. Like people will look at videos and be like, oh, this went viral though. And it's like, that's the exception. Maybe there's one video out of 200,000 or one video out of 200 that are like, this doesn't really have a meeting and it took off. And it's like, are you going to chase the exception to the rule or are you going to chase the rule? Like this is going to get you more results and get you an audience versus trying to chase this one exception of crazy artistic, you know, chance. So yeah, that's how it is with that. So yeah, with targeting audience, we asked, are you to hear if you're in a situationship? And that is an audience of people that we wanted to target because the song was solving that issue. This is specifically for that format of the video. In the video, someone comes sit down and she asks them about the situationship and tells the woman to call her a situationship guy. As she calls the guy, she plays a song to them that says, do you love me? Do you love me a mat? And essentially we are solving and remedying this like situationship with the song. So that's like the format that came from John Michael. He said, if you're having a bad day, sit here and he plays a song about having a good day, same thing with a high force. It's like you're solving the issue with the song and it makes people feel good. Thus people share the video and stuff and you don't want to drag out the ending too long. So in the content side of things, beginning, hooking people in is important, giving people the substance and then not dragging out the outro. Like you kind of want to tail it off right at the climax if not barely after. And that way people will feel like they want to watch it again. Cause if that's what they get, like they want to watch it again or share it with somebody else to give them that same feeling, that's when you have a successful video. Cause when the shares go up, most likely it's going viral. So yeah, that's one aspect of the viral part. And then on the other side, there's the little hacks and things to think about. Like always using a new feature is very important. Like Instagram right now has polls, use that, drive it up. Like always use that. Like that's what we did on this video. Also, I was like, hey, like, cause she wasn't crossing a thousand views. Like I said, this is a new feature. Let's use it. Let's ask people, are you in a situation ship and give the option of like yes and no or maybe. And like that poll had over, I think over a thousand. I don't even know how many people answered the question, but like people that don't want to comment are answering the poll, which is going to drive the engagement up on the video on IG. So wait till TikTok gets that, be sure it's going to be kind of crazy too. So a new feature is always important thing. Also like you want to trick the apps to thinking that you edit it in the app sometimes. So like sometimes I'll say like type of word or you could use words or like a period and drag it to the corner, you know, somewhere hidden and like that way the app thinks that you edit an app. I don't know if it's proven yet, fully that that's true. And detail because I haven't heard that before. Yeah, so that one, there's two sides of that. So like some people just like want the app to think that it's that you're editing in there. So for instance, like I put my titles per app. So like let's say I edit a video on CapCut. When I take the TikTok, I might do the title there and I might do the title on IG. If I don't do that and I have the title from CapCut also there, I might type like a period or I can type some SEO words relating to the video. Like sometimes I'll put similar artists like Nick D, Ty Verdez, this and that like stuff that I like to me and ease and then I'll hide it in the corner. So that way the video is registering those key words because I typed it within the app itself and it thinks that I edited the video in TikTok or I did it in IG. So you're not talking about the caption you're talking about like literally on the video and it's just like small in the corner of the screen nobody's talking about. It's like not even visible. Super, super small. I hide it like kind of off the corner. Yeah. And I know a lot of content creators that do this. Oh yeah. That's like old school SEO type stuff. Yeah. It'll be like between two paragraphs. There's actually a all white text paragraph that nobody knows is on the page because you're trying to use the key words. That's crazy. Yeah. So you kind of do that with content. That's another hack. And once again, hacks alone won't get you viral but like making good videos and then adding these hacks give you the most probability for virality because virality still does have an element of chance but like there's people that do it very consistently because they always provide the most like the thing that's gonna give the most chance for virality. And yeah, there's more of those. Like I said, cutting, making sure there's a cut or a switch up in the first two seconds is a good one. And then adding topics on IG is a good one. Hashtags like yeah, maybe like three. I honestly like a hashtag is more SEO for me. It's not like that's definitely not what's gonna make you viral. And I wish people knew that because that's always the first question I get when people ask me like, yo, what hashtags should I be using? It's like that's not what your focus should be on. It's damn near the last thing I care about. But yeah, so those things are off the top of the dome. Some hacks and some things that I like to think about when I'm doing content. I wanna drop a quick note for anybody who has a fan problem and not just any old fan problem but the type of fan problem that we encountered after helping a lot of artists go viral and have a lot of success, get a lot of streams but still not being able to know who exactly are my fans? How do I reach them? How do I actually leverage that to sell merch, go to a show? Because that's where Spotify leaves us without knowing who our real people are. Same for social media. If you've had this problem, I'll tell you how we've been solving it. And our agency for a while now in the pro version is just now being released to be accessible to any artist or manager out there. I'm talking about Forever Fan. A lot of the campaigns and successes that y'all have heard us talk about on this channel have been powered by that software that's made finding and understanding your true fans simple so they support you with their pockets. Cause we all need a little money in this music thing. And now they're making it available to our audience for only $1 at foreverfanmusic.com slash no labels, no labels with an S at the end and you gotta put in the code, no labels. All right? Now look, the DSPs, the social media platforms, I think they've shown us how much they care about artists for a while now. So at this point, we can all play naive or actually do something about it. Bet on yourself at foreverfanmusic.com slash no labels. And again, put in the code, no labels to get initial access for only $1. Let's get back to this episode. Yeah, so you said something earlier I thought was interesting, right? You said the Mr. Beast quote of replace algorithm with audience and that typically is what your issue is. And Sharnov said this for a couple of years where, you know, we would tell people like, hey, the algorithm is really a reflection of the platform's audience move change towards something, right? So the example that comes up a lot is dance videos. And people are like, oh, like dance videos fell off. And it's like, well, they didn't just fall off out of nowhere. TikTok as a whole just kind of got like sick of dance videos and the algorithm started to reflect that. So that makes me wonder, you know, for someone like you, how much of your content creation process is just you pulling, you know, unique ideas from your own brain versus you literally just reacting to like maybe what your audience is telling you they like or they want to see from you. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I must answer this in a way for like newbies as well as people that have been creating for a while. It's like, you have to have to have to be constantly taking notes of like your ideas because you naturally as a creative person, which all of us are, we are creators, you know, made in the image of the creator, we are creators or all creators. So like we all come up with ideas and people just don't jot it down. Like we are forgetful people. And if you're just writing ideas down, like I have a long note list shared with one of my friends that like it's super long. And I have another long note list with another friend. Then I have a song idea list and I have all these lists on my phone. So I was like constantly like, those are my innovative ideas. And then on top of that, like I'm on IG or TikTok. And as I'm seeing ideas that might inspire me, I'm saving them in certain categories. Wasn't doing that before. I used to just save it in my DMs. That was like a whole funny thing too because my friend will hate me. So I'll save it by DMing it to a certain rate. He's like, why you keep sending me this? And I'm like, I want to react to this later or I want to come back to this. But now I'm like, okay, I'm actually bookmarketing and putting in albums. And like this is the thing that you want to do because like as long as you keep seeing these trends and keep seeing these things, it's going to inspire ideas. And then you could put your voice in it. Like, you know, I did that video where it was like, we're black artists and da, da, da, da, da. And that was like one of my recent ones that blew up. And it's a common trend though. We're this, we're this. And yeah, you know, I've seen a few of them. I even in doing that, like it was one of the other artists, Jaylin Ashon, shout out and Zach Paradise. We, Jaylin came up with the idea. And I was like, I've seen people do black artists. So I said, if we do this, I want to do it in a different way. And we do have like Zach in there. So I was like, they were like, oh, this also goes to the hack thing. Like, oh, let's put Zach third since it's like, and I'm like, no, you have two seconds to hook someone. If you're going to do this, Zach needs to be second. Like, you know, like the white boy needs to be second. Let's go first one. We have to say a fire bar that's relatable so that we, we draw people in. So Jaylin says, we're black artists. Of course, he assumed my rap. And it's like, okay, that's relatable. That's hooking. And then immediately you see this white boy that's just like staring and like that alone was our hook. We knew we had people for like, at least another 10, 15 seconds. So as long as we kept them entertained and then at the end of this thing, we did a song promo. So yeah, that even slow burned and took off on both platforms over a mil, if not two mil on both platforms. So, and even IG or YouTube is ticking up a little bit. So yeah, that's like the mindset. It's like, okay, we target an audience and then it's still funny enough to hit like an overall audience. But like the main target audience is like people that listen or know black artists. Like we even mentioned some things. Like we got our chops from the church. We, you know, like amen, brother. Like there's like black jokes in there that like we knew our audience there. But then we also knew like the overall people would kind of like laugh at it in general. So yeah, I kind of like answer multiple questions in one but I hope that can't happen. You did, you did. And I actually want to get to some of the specifics around your particular artist career. But before we get there, you said something interesting and I think it goes down to so many levels. I don't think most artists need to get this scientific but going back to the top, we'll start from the top. Mr. B says, not the algorithm, it's the audience, right? Well, which means if it's the audience you have two versions of that. One, the audience is going to tell you if it's dope but also you have to make sure it's being seen by the right audience in the first place, right? And there's different ways to do that. Things like hashtags do help with that over time and just think all the little things that help with the SEO are also helping the algorithm understand who's relevant to this which is why we shouldn't do like random hashtags. We're not in that era. Please, please stop doing random hashtags. It's only hurting you literally, all right? So, all right, you gotta get seen by the right audience. If there is an audience, all right, because you could just be getting negative feedback. You could be B.O.B. playing a guitar in a trap club in the middle of Atlanta. Of course you're getting booed, you know what I mean? So you find the right audience and then once you have the right audience the video itself has an audience of its own where you said that that video specifically was for black artists, black people, right? That's not all your videos, right? You have your videos at a very diverse set of people but that one, that core audience, right, would have to understand that and that kind of guided the rest of the video. The jokes that you included, the like pattern interrupt with bringing the white boy in that one. So it's really interesting, right? Whereas not just like who likes my stuff, right? But who am I resonating with in this particular video? No different than how the situation ship video, right? Kinda touch on some things. That's where you took my mind as you spoke. And you touched, can you speak on a couple of those artists that you've helped beyond? We just went through the one girl. Yeah, but. Yeah, I did, I also have Bryce Vine as well recently. Helped him and then I did a video call as well. But Bryce's campaign was interesting, like cause, yeah, we met each other at a bar and it was funny cause when I was vibing with him, I didn't realize he was Bryce Vine. And some people don't even like, you know, recognize the name, some people know his name and the people that know his name, like me, sometimes don't know his face. And that was the case for me. Like, I didn't even know he was Bryce Vine until the end when we were leaving. He said, yo, grab my IG. He said, Bryce Vine, I was like, you're Bryce? Like what? Hey, guy, bro, I used to listen to you in 2016. You're on my Uber playlist. And then he hit me up later like, hey, I'm trying to do some content. And he's like, I like your music. I'll help you out of music if you help me out of content. So I was like, word. And first thing I had to say, cause like a lot of artists have like ego, I had to let him know like, hey, honestly, I don't think a lot of people know your face. Like, you know, like I had to let him know that. And like it's been a current common thing with some other artists I also talked with. Or it's like, I have to, oops, I have to talk about, oops, sorry about that. I have to like discuss the fact that like, hey, some people might not know you like you think they know you. And let's play on that. Let's do interviews with the public and find out. So that's what we do with Bryce. I grabbed the mic, grabbed the camera, took him out to Hollywood Boulevard and say, we're going to play like your two big songs with people recognized, some people, and we're going to ask them who sang the song. And it was just a fun game. We'll ask people and, you know, it kind of revealed something to him because he probably thought people automatically knew like what's Bryce buying. But people are like, you know, Drake, Pete Diddy, Kid Cudi, like, you know, people are saying all these like crazy names and they're like, oh yeah, I've heard this. And then the funniest part was one, in one of the videos, this guy's like, oh, that's Bryce buying, but he doesn't realize it's Bryce. Like that's asking him this question. So then I bought the camera. I'm like, yo, like, can you describe what he looks like? And you can hear my voice say that. And he's like, ah, yeah, no, I couldn't tell you. And then Bryce like, shows him a second song. And he's like, oh, that's also Bryce buying. So this video is just like a great moment where it's like people didn't recognize him. But yeah, I mean, his fans liked it. And then it also took off. That video has almost a million plays on TikTok. And yeah, it's just, it's one of those videos where it's like, hey, now you can attach the face to the song. Cause that's, there's two sides of, that goes into like music marketing in general. Like even with Amy Howe song, you're like, there's two sides of this. There's like, when you're marketing a song, there's the aspect of getting the song viral where it's like you're getting people using the song. Then there's the aspect of attaching your name to the song and attaching you as an artist to the song. And those are two different campaigns. And sometimes people get lucky and it happens at the same time. A good friend I could think of, Paul Russell. I feel like most people know what he looks like. But like at the same time, there's probably a lot of people that don't cause the song has superseded him. The song has gone to the fricking moon. But the original videos where he was jamming and circling people saw his face and it got to be attached. I can name a bunch of songs that people couldn't tell you what the people looked like that went viral on TikTok. So yeah, if that's the case, then you have to do some videos that are now showing your face and tying you to the song in a way. Yeah, we actually just saw this post about Cookie Kawa talking about that, right? She was talking about how, you know, a lot of people artistically give her credit for kind of setting off this new wave of like bounce music and the kind of club music. But the song was so much bigger than her. They're like, she didn't have time to like get her face card to catch up to it. And now, you know, we're retroactively looking back, like, damn, like that should have been you, you know what I'm saying? Kind of as the faces it seemed. But yeah, you're right. It was a lot of TikTok artists at the time where I think because of how the platform was, it's just, it moved them, it moved the song at probably like 100 X speed compared to what their resources could take them. And we're starting to see a lot of them kind of go through like the backlash of that, you know, sort of the downside of that. Yeah, and I mean, to continue on that, I actually quote Brand-Manch on all the time. I quote you from one of your videos in 2018 that I saw that was talking about branding and saying, if your brand isn't as strong, like if you can't be made a Halloween costume, your brand isn't strong enough, that's a huge part of like connecting yourself. Thank you for that credit, by the way, because that girl stole my concept. I may as well like do something petty because she went super viral. I just thought of this concept. I just thought of the video of someone saying that. Just stole my concept. I'm like you. But yeah, Ice Spice is a great example of that. The song was super simple. It was like she can be made a Halloween costume. People could dress as her. Khalid, Billie Eilish, Post Malone, like all these people, like you can really like dress as Michael Jackson. It goes on, like these are icons and that's what separated them. And even just having something little that kind of like makes people recognize you, whether it's sonically or physically or both, which is what great artists do, they have it on both sides. Like sonically, you can kind of sound like Ice Spice, but you can also look like Ice Spice. And when you have that, that's when it's easier for you to not get buried or lost behind your song. So yeah, actually that's, I was talking with Amy about that too. I actually looked at her top two videos and I was like, you know, your top two videos, you have braids. They're like, she has the bi-colored hair where it's like one half blonde, one half brunette, but she was rocking it down recently. And I was like, your top two videos, you have braids in it. And like, even for me in 2021 when I analyzed my top 10 videos, I had my Afro even though I used to wear hats a lot. I was like, all right, well, if my Afros was going more viral, I need to like rock my Afro more, meaning I got to do my hair more. So I was like with Amy, like you got to braid your hair the next time we do the shoot. Like, yeah, the first one we did it without, but I was like, you have to braid it. Like, it's going to just do better. And even just, even off video, like the compliments of the people around her that just came while we were shooting was like 10 times more people just coming up. And I was like- The world is telling you something. The world is telling you something. Just people kept walking up and saying like, oh, you're a hot girl. Like this one guy specifically was just like, are you guys shooting a TikTok? You should be the hot girl in the TikTok. I was like- That's a wild like pickup line. Is that what y'all doing out here? L.A. shit, man. L.A. shit, man. L.A. For real? That is beach. Like it was just going with yourself, man. I'm glad you actually mentioned that though, because, you know, I used to talk about this more heavily and sometimes it's just hard to repeat yourself when you feel like you put the YouTube video out there or whatever, but like a lot, you have a lot of things that are done intentionally when it comes to brand, but sometimes it's just, hey, I happen to go viral in this moment or I happen to get a lot of attention in this moment. And for a second, you have to be frozen in time and lean into that moment. That mean, oh, I was wearing a hoodie. Well, I have to wear that hoodie a little bit more while they still associate me with that look, right? Cause I see you in that hoodie. Or it's like, wait, are you J.O.? I didn't know you were J.O. Until I heard you say you were J.O. And then you took your glasses off. It's like, oh, you are J.O. Or you put your glasses on. And it's like, oh, you are J.O., right? Cause like they're used to seeing you in a specific way. You have to get people time to recognize you in different iterations, you know? Yeah, it's like Superman and Clark Kent. Like there's a reason why they couldn't tell who he was. That's what R. Kelly thought he was doing in that video with saying that wasn't him when he had the mask on. I was like, bruh. We know you a little bit too well, bruh. That mask ain't hiding. But it is crazy though. It's like you have to just be aware because I don't think that Ispice would have leaned into the Afro as heavily, right? Because that's not our natural hair. A lot of people didn't even realize that. So then when they started seeing her without it, they were like, whoa, I didn't know. And now for me still, you know, I'm not like her primary demographic, but it's like it don't hit the same. She don't look like Ispice for me yet unless she got the Ispice look, you know what I mean? So it kind of just is what it is and being aware. I've never heard anybody reference it that way though. Like looking at the videos and how you looked as a whole. I kind of done that, well, we've done that. Like when we're analyzing an influencer and what are we gonna use them for? What are they doing in the video? But just talking about is my hair braider or not? Do I have an Afro or not? Like those specifics? It's like you are developing a look at the moment, you know? Well, yeah, it was like, it was a Halloween costume look. That was like, you can literally see out of Beanie and like her braids, like two braids, one blonde, one brown. I'm like, you can literally make this a wig. Like this could literally, so I'm like this, it makes sense already as a brand. Why deviate and try to force something else? This already worked twice. Your top two videos, which or were her top two videos. Now, the new video we did is our top video, but like I'm like, let's emphasize this. Let's use this more. So like all the new ones that we shot that are coming out soon are all with like her braids and she's gonna pretty much rock that mostly for moving forward. But yeah, it made me think about something too that I just would love to get your thoughts on, right? Like so if we think about TikTok and it's like current iteration versus when it first popped, I felt like early TikTok artists could get away without having a super established brand because a lot of times it was like other trends or it was somebody else's idea carrying the song like nine and a half times out of 10 versus today TikTok, a lot of the more viral videos like actually include the artists in it, right? Or include like them, like let's say out of 10 like at least like seven or eight of them are probably then like performing somewhere or doing something. So it feels like this new batch of artists and content creators using those platforms have to kind of care more about the brand and the look than let's say like the 2019 artists that were taking advantage of TikTok. One, you know, just what are your thoughts on that in general? Have you noticed something one way or the other? And then two, what advice would you give for the artists that are operating in like the new TikTok? I feel like that might just be a case of that being the gap of early TikTok because it's like artists had to care about their brand before and now they have to care about it again. It's like maybe that was just like that two year span where because it was so early on TikTok that it didn't matter if a song blowing up was a song blown up, but when you look at it and it's like there's still were iconic people blowing up in those times, you know, like Lil Nas X I'm thinking like who else was early? Well, like, yeah, I couldn't even, oh, 24K Golden. Like, you know, like he kind of had a look like and you know, like I can register the look of his braids and so on like with that. But yeah, there was definitely people that blew up without it. And I think like it's just getting back to that because one of the markets getting oversaturated on TikTok again. So you just have to stand out in a way. Even when I think of like artists like D4 or David he has a band aid, something as simple as that. And like just like being associated with something and even if it's like glasses or like just if the way you look at itself is unique, like that also works. Like, you know, like it just, I don't know that the audience kind of tells you what they like and you can kind of see that out. And I think like for new artists just like, yeah, you don't want to do something that's unnatural to you. Like, yeah, I have like bright colors sometimes and like my background colors, but most of my stuff is neutral. Like I, most of my closet is like earth tones and neutral. Even when I'm making merch, I'm like trying to do earth tones emotional with like a splash of color. Like you want to still be natural, but like find what is that edge that you can do that makes you you like, even when you think Kanye, like he has a look, he has a thing that makes it like, oh, this looks like Kanye. Even if you saw no Yeezy logo, you'd be like, this looks like Yeezy. Like I think like thinking like that, like what makes you you as an artist and what, and how do you want to inspire people in that? Like as an artist being, you know, like your physical look is part of your artistry. Like that is art. Like, and I think that's, that might tie the connected dots right there. The only thing I'll come back that you said, I don't think the audience always tells you what they like, but I think they will always tell you what's interesting to them for better or worse. Right? Like there's something being said. There's always going to be feedback about that thing that's interesting, whether it is negative or positive. And then you mentioned Kanye, I think he's somebody who's probably done the best job since Michael Jackson, when it comes to just branding where you can see multiple things, right? And associate it with the Kanye. There's like a Yeezy shoe silhouette. There's like a couple of Yeezy shoe silhouettes that you can associate with him. There's an overall style of dress now that you kind of attribute to him. You see somebody with a mask, you know, you'll, you can associate it with him. He has a couple of things, man. You know, and then you go to Michael Jackson. The up moon walk, that's Michael Jackson. You kick your legs up, that's Michael Jackson. You grab your balls and put them in there. That's Michael Jackson. You got your hand, it's Michael Jackson. Regular, like it's so many things. You know what I mean? And I don't think people realize like, although there's a lot of superstar artists, there's very few that have branded things so strongly in that way, right? Like I was telling Jacory the other day, I was with my daughter, like we were making pancakes and it just so happened like, you know, she made the main circle and then I made like two more circles. Well, I ended up making the two more circles and she instantly just said Mickey Mouse, just seeing three circles. Like I was like, though, how powerful that shit is, right? Like to have just three circles and you instantly think Mickey Mouse and nobody else can take that, right? You now got the real estate. The mouse doesn't even look like that. Hey, just like the heart doesn't look like the heart that we use, you know what I mean? All right, but that's how powerful branding and just, hey, you can get everybody agree on it, right? Up, there we go. And this is what we, this is what we mean when we use that, right? That's how words work, right? We all mean this when we say that. So I think that's what's so intriguing about the idea of branding and what I can kind of like personally like nerd out about where people, you know, a lot of people look at it more of the commercial capitalist standpoint, but just like when you think about how crazy it is when it really works is actually fascinating. But before we talk, I wanna talk about some management advice and situations you've been through, but before we get there, cause you got an interesting story bro on that side of things. You've made, I'm sure there's other artists do this, but the way you talk about bartering and leveraging your platform is like, nothing I really hear artists talk about, you know? Yeah, I don't really hear artists talk about that much. Look, can you, can you mind sharing that? Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of people that have like skills in something else. Like, like we're all not just like, I hope you're not just solely good at just music. I mean, if you are, that's still like great, like kill it to the moon, but there's a lot of people that are jack of all trades or at least jack of three trades or a couple of things. And for me, I feel like I'm really strong in content creation, comedy, music, I can name a bunch, but like in the creative space that like what can I serve others with? And I think that's like honestly, like the first question you should ask yourself when networking, like how can I help others? You know, how can I help you? Because it's the first thing you do when you meet someone, especially if you're not in LA and you're about to come in LA, like that's the first thing that people hate. Like you come here and the first thing you're doing is asking for something or my first DM is you asking for something. Like that is not going to like help you. There's like mainly because the people that are at the top have been asked that by thousands of people already. So it's like, if you don't find a way for you to be of service to them, well then one, just don't hit them up yet. And maybe you figure out how you can or maybe you can even asking for help is different, but like asking for like a bone is completely like, just don't do that. So for me, when I'm networking, either like I think about like a big artist, like pink sweats who have opened my DMs before, like in 2019, before I was even anything. And like I was just genuinely asking for advice. Like I was like, hey, I'm really like inspired by your art and da, da, da, da, da, you know? So first off, giving, you know, giving like compliment, giving like making sure, you know, it's like I am inspired by his stuff. And I asked for like, you know, any advice and stuff. And then later you gave me some feedback on some songs. That I think is one route. And then the other route is like, yeah, I hit up people and I'm like, hey, I can do content or like I noticed like you might need some help with like some editing or this and that. I would love to link up and discuss like some ideas or I might even just send ideas sometimes without even saying like, linking up. Like I'll just be like, hey, I noticed this is this. Like I think if you do this, it might help just, you know, unsolicited advice, but if you want it, or sometimes I might even ask before and like, hey, if you want some advice, I can give it to you. It does help that like I have been kind of like certified in the field and like I have a repertoire of like me being successful at content. So then people take my advice more, but I feel like finding a space for that, especially if like you can kind of find holes that like what artists need. So I think that's where I've been able to take advantage of just like talking to some artists that like have found success in music, but haven't found success in content. I can offer and barter and trade with that. So. What about flipping to be on tour with Kyle or other people like that? Yeah. So yeah, so with Bryce, for instance, like I said, like he actually brought it up first because I was mainly just offering help. And I didn't even bring up music. He said, I want to check out your music because you saw my page. And I was just offering him content help. And he was just like, yeah, I want to check out your music. I like it, man. Like, I'll help you music if you want to help me with content. And that's what happened. So I helped him with stuff. And then you put me on tour. Let me open four locations. We've been in the studio many times. Like we released a song called Margot Robbie that I co-wrote and I also promoted and had a point on the Masters that A&R the whole song. And then we've written some others. I'm working on its album right now. So stuff like that's happened. And then with Kyle, I knew his videographer for like a couple of years. He was following me and I bought a ticket. Like, you know, like sometimes you got to do things. Like I bought a VIP ticket just so I could have an opportunity to talk to him because like he was an artist that I was really a fan of. And yeah, I bought a VIP ticket and I told the videographer I was going to be there. And he was like, oh, Kyle wants to do some content. Like if you have any ideas, let me know. I was like, oh, I do have an idea. You know, I was like mad effect. Best believe I had an idea before I bought this $100 ticket. And then when I pulled up, I told him like, hey, I want to do a video where I challenge you Mario Kart because I did my research. I saw he loves Mario Kart, Mario Super Smash Bros. and so on. I mean, he has a song about Super Smash Bros. But anyway, I brought Mario Kart, brought my Switch all that we played. And I said, if I lose, I'll buy five pieces of merch. If he wins, if I win, I get to open on any location in Detroit. That way it's easy, low stakes. You can let me open in, well, fuck, nowhere if you want. So yeah, that video went well. And he was just like, yeah, I'll let you open regardless. He told me that before we even did the video. Yeah, I actually lost, which was crazy because I was winning the whole game. I was literally like in front of him, the whole game I hit by two red shells and a blue shell out of nowhere. I was winning the first two laps. Like it was literally ridiculous. And the video was great for it because my reaction was genuine. I was screaming like, I thought fuck that. But yeah, I lost. And then yeah, I ended up opening anyway. I bought six pieces of merch. I held my end of the deal. And yeah, so that was a fun experience too. So I think it was like, yeah, being fun, being someone that people want to be around that isn't just asking for stuff is always like a great way to network and just like end up getting what you want. Cause like you gotta play the long game. Like I'm just like, how can I provide for people? How can I be of service? Because everybody else around them is trying to take from them. So that's just my mentality. What are your thoughts on managers in general? Man, definitely it's really hard to find a manager that rides like 100% believes in you, but also 100% is a hustler. I guess like personality types definitely do matter. Cause I'm also like sliding in even assistance in that thought process. But just from my experiences with my own managers as well as people what I've seen is like, you wanna find some a manager that rides like that actually believes in your art and you succeeding and isn't just trying to get a dollar or a nothing. And those are always the best, but then it's also better when they are connected and have experience doing it. Like a new manager is harder. I don't have experience fully with like a new new manager. Both my managers in my past have been like somewhat experienced, but from what I hear from people that have like new new managers that sometimes is like tough, but like every manager has been a new new manager at some point. So that was not a knock to like new new managers, but definitely like knowing like you wanna get that experience and you wanna make sure like that ego doesn't get in the way. If that's the case and you know, like they're willing to learn from somebody that has experience and so on. Anyway, my own experiences. Yeah, trial periods. Do not sign hella quick, figure out what they own. Like Adam manager lose me a huge deal. I think we had that on a previous interview. I was talking about the, my song with Chipotle, Bacamole and Adam manager hop on, even though I initiated that deal and he just messed that up. And I've had recently, even last year, I had a different manager hop on in the middle of a deal and I'll negotiate it because he was trying to get way too much and be hungry and all that. And he has experience. His whole thing was like, I used to manage all this ego. Just like, they're not really understanding where I'm at in my position and the money I need. Like I already got like a good amount agreed on and they pulled back that budget to zero because he wanted to five exit on the way. So I guess just like, yeah, you need to make sure a manager understands you. They're riding in a corner. They have experience doing some stuff and if not, they're willing to learn. And yeah, like there needs to be a trust system because like even like some of my best managers even in acting, like some of the top ones don't do contracts because it's really like off trust. And not to say like don't ever sign a contract. Like we'll worry about contracts later. Maybe when you're signing with like a record deal or like the money gets bigger. But it's like, if you don't trust them and they don't trust you, it's like you wanna build that relationship first. So that's very important. So if someone's trying to get you a sign in the first like two weeks, like watch out for that. I would say that. So much of a legitimate relationship. I feel like in the business, the management relationship most closely reflects like a personal relationship with your significant other. Boyfriend, girlfriend, husband, wife or whatever because again, if the trust is in there, it's not gonna work regardless, right? You know, it's going in badly one way or another. And then also trial periods are nice, date a little bit, you know? And I've just seen so many times that where managers will mess stuff up for people. And the biggest part that we don't talk about and I wanna make sure you feel seen Jail because I don't think enough people talk about this. That people are in your position. We talk about, oh, he's a wealthy man and all these gold diggers are coming for him or even whatever that might look like if you flip it to the woman side. What I've noticed, I'm cool with quite a few influencers, you know what I mean? And I've noticed that y'all have management situations that are a little gold digger sometimes. All right, that y'all are more prone to, oh, this person has all these views as an influencer and you look like a bag to me. All I gotta do is sign you, you're my leverage and I can flip and get a few deals and get some money up off of other people. All right, they're coming to you with a gold digging mindset and then they fuck you over as a result. Yeah, yeah, that's happened. Yeah, yeah, that's happened. Even the management I had before that was like, I was like, I remember they try to sign up like my content side and I was like, first off, I looked at the roster and I was like, I'm like your second biggest content creator and the other girl blew up because of music. I was like, no, I'm not gonna sign the content side. We could just do music. And if y'all truly believe that you can like, improve my music career, you'll earn off music. But like, you trying to get my content side that I've already built on top of that, like a 360 is ridiculous. Like you guys haven't done anything for this aspect and we could do non exclusive here, whatever you bring in, you could take a percentage up but like, you don't need to be taking percentage of what I'm already doing. Like, that's just crazy. So yeah, definitely have been in that gold digger situation and seeing people like leverage, like, you know, now their full roster looks better because I'm on there, you know, so. That's the whole point. Yup. You know, be wary of like what their intentions are and I guess that just boiled back down to like the trust and so on. Like, I think it is like, you wanna find that sweet spot where I mean, I don't wanna say like, you don't wanna be the smallest or you don't wanna be the biggest. Like, I mean, I tend to like being one of the smaller artists on someone's roster, but just because that's room for growth and that means that they have experience at the top but yeah, I mean, it's easier on them. It's funny when you talked about the manager f'ing you over by like over negotiating too hard. Shout out to my uncle, man. The one that I have multiple, but he knows who he is. I remember, I remember, and I can only be so mad at him because I was in his position because of him in the first place. He flew me, my sister and my brother out to Puerto Rico when I was probably like a senior right after I college or something. It was pretty, you know, I was young. And I ran into this guy who was shooting travel channel content. And he did the jet skis. I'd never been out of the country, let alone like by water like that and let alone a jet ski. And he was willing to do this really low deal because really he just needed the content, right? Cause he, for the travel channel, so he wasn't trying to text like that. It was like $45 for me, my brother and my sister. So I'm like, oh, bet now, $40.5 ain't a lot of money. However, I told you my agent where I was at the time, I didn't have $45, right? You know, none of us had $45. So we asked my uncle, and like this man is a hardcore negotiator. That's what he does like for, he's made a living off of just negotiating, you know what I mean? And he was just like, what, $45 to get on the phone? He was like, no man, y'all should be able to do this for free. He needs you because I was like, he needs me. He got gifts on the phone. He's like, oh, you're not gonna do it for free? It's like, all right, we don't need you then click. And I just remember the feeling of the click, like. We not getting on those jet skis. We not getting on those jet skis, bro. That shit hurt so bad, man. But I did, I also couldn't say nothing. Like that's my uncle. And again, this is the reason we're here. But like just the air left my chest for a period. It really hurt. And I can only imagine in some ways, right? Like the Chipotle deal, right? Everything's rolling and then bam, click. You literally, yeah, you can negotiate hard unless you're willing to walk away, which is one thing. And sometimes managers don't understand that you're not willing to walk away. Like you need the money. You're good. I'm not good, bro. They're willing to walk away. Dude, you don't live the full life, been to like 20 countries. I got rents to pay. I need this deal, bro. I'll be candid with the numbers too. Cause like this was, this was ridiculous. This last one that happened in 2023. Like I already, they hit me up because Waka Moli blew up again, which by the way I always say it, that song is like my move by Doja Cat. Don't take me seriously. If you're going to listen to that song, listen to my other tracks too. Like it is my goofy track that like it's just brandy and all that stuff. But yeah, anyway, that song took off and like a few brands hit me up to see the song. But this other brand that I won't name, hit me up. They wanted me to make their own song. Like not even Waka Moli, they just liked the song. Wanted me to make them their own song. We negotiated, got agreed on 30K. Great number. Like, you know, like mind you, yes, it can be more. And I understand that. But it's also a great deal. I need that money. So I'm like, cool. Like, like this is like healthy, it's good. Like, it's like, yes, there's things that are 100K, six figures and more. Like I understand that. But we agreed on it. We were working on the song for like months because like revisions, revisions, like all this stuff. I had it done in like the first two weeks, but like revisions on lyrics and then another revision and so on. So we got it done. And then when the new year hit, we were about to like, you know, officially like send over the final version. This new manager that I just met was like how I worked at Sony for 10 years and all this experience, like named out the bunch of freaking artists that used to work with all this. He's like, I already know you should be getting like six figures on this. I was like, I know, but I need this money. He's like, oh, well, let me try and get you more. This man hops on the email chain, right? And I invited him on the email chain. He was sent the most aggressive paragraph I had ever seen, not even proof read by me. And I was like, yo, what the... The most aggressive email of like, this is how much we're like, this is why we need this much money and we're not taking 30, pretty much. And that couple was like, yo, like what? Cause they had never bought a song. The fact that they were doing 30 was a big investment for them. So like, yes, they don't understand that like, yes, my manager was kind of right in a way like he was. Like the things he was saying, like, if you guys want to use this for radio and this and this and perpetuity, like six-figure deal, but like in reality, it's like, I need that money. And their counter was, there's fireworks again. Their counter was, hey, we're just gonna back out entirely. Mind you, I already invested, I bought the song from the producer, all this stuff. I was out of pocket. I was like, hey, no way. This is going to go down like this. And the manager was just like aggressive. I literally removed him from the chain. I apologize. Like, hey, sorry, I just brought him in. They thought it was fake. They thought I was trying to like email, like through the site email and I was trying to be aggressive too. So I was like, no, like I need to like talk to them. I like, you know, send some audio message on IG the original way they hit me up. I was like, look, honestly, like this will happen. Da, da, da, da. I got the deal back at half. But that all to say, the manager messed me up. And it's like, I didn't even need to bring him in. It was already a signed deal for 30K that I ended up getting half for. This is bro, this is a real conversation. I'm glad you even come in here with it, man. How many times have we seen managers come into situations that existed before them and they just feel like they got to show their worth, man. And they started kicking shit around. It's like, dawg. Here ain't the place, man. I learned my lesson. Cause the same thing happened with Chipotle. That is on you, bro. That's right. But like for real, I see that time and time again. It's like they're there and they feel like they have to show their worth and they're moving on something where it's like, no, you bring me new stuff, these situations. Because I already established a relationship here. You're going to mess up a relationship I already have. All right. Like that's not even a smart manager to come in and immediately just make these massive changes on stuff that you weren't a part of, man. And I hate that for you. Like you said, you learned your lesson though. So I go, yeah. I mean, it doesn't happen twice. So if it happens again, fuck the peace sign. For whole the chopper. Oh man. Now, I mean, it's really crazy though. We've seen that. And then sometimes it works on people's favor if there's enough coming in where, you know, we first started getting hit with it like super hard, early TikTok, bro, be like $300. And then two days later, oh, I just got new management, $2,000. And it's like, yo, but we've been like building for like a minute now. How are you like, at least let us finish this post that we agreed on or do one more post or something like half our way up to a little, but no, like they'll be managed like this is the hard line. And they, I mean, look, maybe it works for them in enough in their situations where net they're good. But if they're willing to walk away from it. You're a casualty though. Yeah. But you become a casualty of what they're willing to walk away from. You know what I mean? Yeah. You can only negotiate hard if you're willing to walk away and people think like they can negotiate hard and force people to pay them money. And it's like, no, that's not the case. Like, in the reality, it's like, especially if their numbers have already been put out, like you can't negotiate that hard. And mind you, like that was a, we were building that relationship. That was just the music side. We were already negotiating more money for the content side. Now it's like, I got half of the original offer and we're not doing anything else. So like, it was just like, you could have played the long game, played the like the relationship well and like really like, you know, made them feel happy about the song. And like, now it's like, they feel like they just did it because of my costs. Cause I came back and said, hey, I spent this much money. I had to show invoices of how much I've already spent. And they were like, they didn't want to be assholes. So they just... It's not a legit relationship cause they don't feel safe. You know what I mean? Like to use like not even in like a fluffy, you know, social media term, like they legit don't feel like, can I trust this situation? What is he going to do? It's somebody like, oh well, yeah. Like JL seems to still be cool, but the manager is still the manager. Are they going to come back out in defense and start barking at me again? And now you got me thinking about stuff. And here's the thing, especially under, like dealing with people outside of the music industry. Like, you know, the managers or just a lot of people would like to come from this or even lawyers would like to come from a perspective of, oh man, they're trying to screw you over. And a lot of times like, like you said, this might be their first foray. They don't even know half of this stuff. So now you got me thinking about all kinds of risks that I didn't know I was getting involved in. Do I even want to be involved with this artist? I didn't know that was a thing. Like, this is a way deeper relationship. Like, bro, I thought this was date number two. You talking about getting married right now. This is crazy. Like, I don't think people understand that, man. You have to be aware. And that's really the sign of like, you know, just great business and nuance. You have to be able to read people and the situation. Like you are not the same in every single market. Like, yes, you can go to this business and get a hundred K. You can go to music and they're gonna give you nothing and still try to own all of you. You can go to another company, right? And they might have five K, right? And that's just your worth in that particular market. And your worth does not apply the same over every market, even like major companies. When I'm in selling in Africa versus Brazil versus America and which city in America, like you might have to tax a little bit differently given the circumstance. That's all it is. Yeah, yeah. No, exactly. Yeah, I mean, it's definitely like doing your research too. It's like, you can look up most companies, especially in America, like their gross income and looking at like, you know, one to 2% of that's probably their marketing spend. Being like, all right, that's their spend for the year. Like, what are they gonna be willing to pay you for a song or for this campaign? You know, and use that to kind of gauge like where you wanna put your rates at, especially if they're not willing to give you a budget first. But yeah, that's what we kind of did with these companies when we came up with those numbers. And like, they did say yes to that 30 real quick. Like, I'm gonna be honest. Like they said yes to that 30 real fast. And we're like, damn, okay. Like, cause this was a number that we're like, hey, based on like, this how much you guys make, like this how much songs would cost, like anywhere from the 50 to 100K range if you're doing commercial stuff and all that. Like let's just, so sometimes it works out when you like get that right number for them. That also works for you. So yeah, it's crazy. Two percent of their profit, is that what you said? Yeah, it's kind of like, it was actually, Jaycee, I was mentioning before the thing because Jaycee, one of my managers, you kind of like, he knows that cause he used to work with like a bunch of people on NDA but he used to work with like a bunch of major, major brands and stuff that we know. And he was saying like, being able to like look at, for instance, I won't use that brand. Let me use a brand that I don't work with yet. Let's say Walmart, let's say Walmart profits and we'll just make up a number 10 billion a year. And that means like around two percent, it's probably their marketing spend at least, if not more, that would be, what 200 million, right? Am I accurate? Something like that. So like that's their spend per year. And if this is a huge campaign, like, yeah, maybe you can't get away with 106 figures very easily, probably if it makes sense, like, you know, like, because that budget's being spread out and it's a write-off for them. So it really just depends what the campaign is and how important that campaign is. If you're one of like 60 artists on it, like, okay, that number might have to go down cause maybe they're just doing 100K for like this month or like you could divide that by the months and see like, what are they averaging per month and so on. And yeah, you can kind of get it cause that's also like their ads. You got to think about like their TV ads and all that stuff. It's not just content marketing. That's one or two percent. So you got to really put all that into fact and be like, okay, what is their actual budget here? But companies like Walmart are probably coming to you with a budget already. So they're not asking you to be like, hey, what's your rate? But it depends really. That's funny dealing with those companies cause the other budget is the budget straightforward but the numbers usually going to be nice and big. So you're like, oh, well, I'm happy. Or they're pulling back because they spend a lot on TV. Like honestly, the companies that pay the most have always been the mid-size for me. Yeah, little hack, but like, I guess maybe because they're focused more on the content than TV or I don't know why, but it's just like the mid-size companies have a lot of money and they're still trying to like get themselves in. You're the advantage, man. That's what it is. I can't beat the companies bigger than me on those bigger, like more competitive shelf spaces. I have to find the alternative route. Like the social is the alternative route to the TV and primary spaces that Walmart's are killing. Exactly, yeah. One more thing about management. You said trial period. I wanna speak, if you could speak a little bit more about the, so trial period, like a test period and then also exclusive and non-exclusive. Yeah, definitely. It's hard to be non-exclusive on the music side. I will say that. So like, I like to separate that also from my content. I would just separate different aspects of me. I'm an actor, musician, you know, main two and then content creator. So it's like, I like to have all three of those separate. And yeah, I could talk to someone that special at my two manager go or one manager go. They did the content and music at the same time. That's what they wanted to do. But like that also ended up still, we were done at the trial period. But yeah, you definitely wanna like, maybe at least three months where you see what they can do for you. Honestly, it's like kind of like recruiting for a college basketball. Like these scouts are gonna, you know, get you some nice things, get you some nice gear. They might throw some money under the table. No, that's illegal, but they're not doing, manager aren't gonna pay you. But like, you know, they might like smooth and see what they show you what they can do early on. And that's very important to know like, what are they capable of? Cause if they can't even do that in the smooths period, like what are they gonna do after that? So that's also very important, you know? Like I got like, in my smooths period, I got like a bunch of free clothes from Fashion Nova and like some stuff from like Puma and like all this stuff getting, you know, set to me. And I was like, cool, like this is, this seems like a cut to player, you know? So and not like that's gonna be common for everybody's experience. Like if they are like, you know, organizing your life or showing you, like they're actually better in advancing you than that's something to consider. Also like, you know, that smooths period or whatever. So yeah. I don't know if I like the smooths period, man. I mean, you wanna go cold turkey in it? No, I'm just thinking about, it should almost be ignored, I feel like, for artists. And cause I know enough of the game to know how it's all lies. Just like you could rent a car, you know what I mean? Like you go out of town, you're at the beach and you and your boys rent a car. You got your best outfit on that you would never have on back home, right? It could be a complete lie. And you could be considering them versus a manager that it's like, hey man, like this is what it is. This is how I am. And they're not giving you any fluff but everything there is substance but their intentions are more in line as well. When I move, I move. It's not any fluff to distract you, you know what I'm saying? Well, same thing with the colleges. Like yeah, you're getting smooths and you get this free stuff. But let's say you're talking to Virginia State and they seem real while USC's over here fluffing and puffing and it seems fake. Like yeah, you're gonna have to suss out the situation. I say like definitely explore options is the important part. So you can find that one school or manager that is like the one that makes sense and isn't like bullshitting. Cause like sometimes the smooths is cool and it's like it is real. Like it's not like just fake. And like them doing this is this is like they have a roster and they've shown like they've done this in the past. I'll say it's the difference between smooths and like, no, this is just the world that you'll be entering and I'm so much on that level, right? And now you're seeing what that would look like, right? But you have to be able to like you said suss out like what's real and what's not or did I just gather all my resources for the day, you know what I'm saying? And pull them out. In the end of the day, I'm just trying to say, man ain't nothing wrong with Cheesecake Factory, bro. I love Cheesecake Factory, that's my spot. You know, one of my favorite drinks ever is actually at Cheesecake Factory. It's the whiskey smash. Whiskey smash? Yeah, they make a whiskey smash everywhere but the one at Cheesecake Factory tastes like candy. Like it will get you drunk and you can't even tell there's alcohol in it. It is my favorite drink. It's like, yeah, it's crazy. It sucked. That's how wild, bruh. Whiskeys, what do you think? Don't take me to Cheesecake Factory. Don't take you to Cheesecake Factory? Don't take me to Cheesecake Factory. Aye, man. I'm on the side of the internet. You supposed to do the takin', bruh. No, man, no. Oh, Jacory's the prize. Yeah, bruh. We gotta leave the diva alone. Yeah, bruh. You don't like it? What's your spot? Put on that same level or just in general? I don't think I got a spot. I just kinda wing it. I ain't allowed to you, man. Every new date is a new experience, you know what I'm saying? Gotta keep his attention, bruh. Yeah, bruh. You know what I'm sayin'? Keep me on my toes. That's what I best what I do. Oh, man. Look, and that's how we know it's time to get up out of here, bruh. J-O, appreciate you being on the pod, man. I'm Brad Manshaw. I'm Cory. And we out. Peace.