 I'm very pleased that I was coming and he and Sarah both wanted me to greet you and send their fondest regards. Well, they're very close to my heart. I know they are. I know they are. And as I'm sure they told you that we're doing a book together on Jim's life of biography of course what happened to him on March 30th is a major part of it. Yes. So I thought that perhaps we could go through kind of quickly the beginning at the beginning when Jim joined your campaign. I realized that you were not focused on fairly junior staff people. But I recall that John Connelly called Ed Meese and suggested Jim. Yeah. And oh my, he came aboard and he was immediately front and center and very much a part of the team. And he has such, well first of all a great sense of humor but he also had that great gift of knowing whether to push on something or let it die. You know, that 24-hour story that you wanted to correct and you found it was just better if you didn't say anything it would go away. He had a great instinct for that. That's interesting. Did you spend any time with him? Did you have an impression of him during those days? Oh Lord yes. Oh yes. We were all a tight little team in the front of the campaign plane. What, did you remember your first meeting with him or did it just sort of gradually come into focus? I can't say that I can actually pick it out in all that was going on there. But it was a case of when he came aboard immediately met him and he was in the inner circle from then on. His humor was immediately apparent. Oh yes. Was he irreverent at the beginning? Was he irreverent at the beginning? No, no, no it was always good humor and always fit the occasion. I'm sure you remember that it took some time to pick Jim as the right person to be press secretary. And I just wondered if you recall what was going, what was the thinking, what sort of press secretary you were, what you had in mind. Well if you're talking about press secretary in the, in my present job. Yes, yes. I'm always a little superstitious. I didn't get around to anything like that in advance. You know in baseball, I used to be a sports announcer, you know in baseball the pitcher is pitching a no-hitter. You never mention it in the dugout or anything. Because if you do you jinx him and then someone will get a hit. Well I always kind of felt the same way about campaigning. I never made any decisions about what would happen later until we knew what I was going to be doing later. So we never talked about positions in the administration or anything at all. Oh I see. Well I really meant, you know, there was some talk that Jim wasn't quite the right person for the job. And it was, it took quite a while for him to be named and he got a lot of kidding as a result. You remember? Well because that would have been in the whole process then of after I was president-elect and then the total transition period. Yes, that is what I'm talking about. And we had quite a team of people working there and on all of those things. And when he was recommended for that position I didn't have to think twice. It just suddenly came clear that he was the right person. And did Knopfziger, was Knopfziger ever in the running or had he taken himself out of it? The long time ago, isn't it? Yes. No, there were other things, for Lin, not that. And then shortly after we were here and after he'd been here for a while he chose to go, he wanted to go out into the private sector. But no, I'm trying to think what it was we had in mind that he did. Let's see, was he charged a political for a while? That was it, yeah. Tell me if you wouldn't mind your view of the importance of the White House press secretary and how it fits into the scheme of things. Oh, there's so much a part of your life, the whole press corps that it's very important. Even if they're just out of sight, they're just down the hall here, they're an ever present. So they're a presence all the time and nothing is done without having to coordinate their activity. And so the press secretary? Yes, he's very much involved in everything that goes on. What did you think of the job Jim was doing? He was doing great, yes. A question of access is something that came up. I mean it comes up with every press secretary, it seems to be a very important thing. And I just wonder what, did he have complete access? Yes. Well if you don't mind, I'd kind of like to jump to March 30th, 1981. I know it's an extremely painful subject in more ways than one. Yes, definitely in more ways than one and with regard to him, I didn't know until I myself was in the hospital and I discovered that I'd been shot because I didn't know I'd been shot. As a matter of fact, when the shooting started I thought it was firecrackers and members starting to say what is that? And the secret service agent behind me just grabbed me and the car girl was over and I dived into the car from his throwing me. And then he, and this is policy with them, he dived in on top of me. And then, it was only then that I suddenly felt a very paralyzing pain and it was after he had jumped in, so I thought something had happened that I interpreted as that he'd maybe broken a rib or something from the location of the pain. And I told him, and he got off very quickly and I sat up and he said sit back and I said I can't, it hurts too much. And just then I coughed and I had a handful of blood and so my prognosis then was that I'd broken a rib but it also pierced my lung and so he told the driver, we started for the White House, he told in the hospital and we started with the hospital and I used up my handkerchief and then I used up his and we got to the hospital and I got out and walked into the emergency room and a nurse met me and all of a sudden my knees began to wobble a little bit and I remember saying to where I'm having trouble breathing, it seemed as if I had to breathe very deeply to get enough air and the next thing I knew I was on a gurney and they were cutting my clothes off and that's when they then discovered that I'd been shot. They'd been very little bleeding from it at all. But I didn't know about Jim and no one brought me up to date on anything other than the fact that I shot and then they wheeled a later, they wheeled a stretcher by me on the way to the surgery and it was Jim and they told me that it was him and of course at that time they were very pessimistic about... You knew that before you went into surgery? I knew it before I went in yet because he'd gone by and then they told me that and so I was very much concerned and that's when I then learned that Tim McCarthy of the Secret Service had also taken a bullet intended for me. Who told you? Who gave you this one? Well I'm trying to think now because well our White House doctor had gotten there and was there in attendance and I'm trying to think well then the agents were with me and it was just through them I can't remember which one said specifically but I began to learn these things. When you were lying in the emergency room you were not aware that Jim was right next to you. He was. I wasn't aware until movement came around. I didn't know that he was right there. Well I'm not surprised. You had an oxygen mask on I believe. They were doing all kinds of things. As a matter of fact I don't think I'd been told then. Maybe they thought that I shouldn't hear those other things. I'm sure that you were in no shape to hear such a thing but I just wanted you yourself looked over. No. You didn't. No but by that time they had me on my back and they had a pipe down my throat and so I was anything I wanted to say I was writing notes. This seems an obvious question but what was your reaction to hearing that Jim? I felt that somehow I was responsible for all that had happened to all the others. I know that Jim was right where he wanted to be. He loved that job. He was thrilled to be doing it. And he hasn't plateaued. He's still making progress. I know we see him every once in a while and can see the progress. I know that early on, not too long after the shooting, things got to be kind of messy in the press office. And I know there was a thought that perhaps Jim should give up his title for a while so that things would be straightened out over there. And I know that just the barest suggestion was made to him and I think this was about a month after the shooting. And Jim just reacted powerfully. Do you know about this? No. You don't? Well, he knew immediately that they were asking him to give up his job. They were just going to discuss it a little bit. Nobody had told that to me because he's got that job as long as I'm here. I thought it was amazing that he reacted that strongly with that much brain injury. But you weren't aware of that discussion? But he's got that job. Yes. Do you think things would have been different if Jim had been here? And how do you think he would have? Well, I hesitate to say about anyone. And I've always, you know, his presence is there. And so I feel that in part that's why things are working well. That's true. It is his staff that's in there, isn't it? That is true. Do you see Jim from time to time? Yes. That where? Oh, the other days. I saw him out here from Mike Dever's going away party. And do you get regular reports from doctors? Do you get a cover overall review every now and then? Well, there's been just now and then, just what you said, the progress and so forth, and good news to report. But we see them enough. Nancy talks to Sarah. Do you have any anecdotes or images or little memories? What do you think of when you think of Jim Brady? Well, it's a kind of a montage of memories. I can't pick out some specific incident or anything except that I can visualize him there on the campaign plane. And as I say, those discussions when something broke that you had to discuss, you know, how do we deal with this or something? And he was a great voice of reason on how to handle it. And we all turned to him for his analysis of what should be the procedure. And of course, the humor. He and he becoming Nancy's Y and H. Or is she? Yes. You know about that? I know about that. Yes. Yes, because there were stories circulating. Somehow it got out that Mrs. Reagan wanted, what I remember, as a reasonably good-looking press secretary. Yes, and it wasn't true at all. And they'd sit in the rumors. They said that she wanted someone young and handsome. So when she finally heard this rumor, she started calling him her Y and H. And still does. Yes, that's cute. Well, I talked to her, I'm sure. My prep, she told you I interviewed her earlier. And she denied vehemently that she had ever said anything. I'm such a thing. And she did. But, you know, at some of the times, those things have a life of their own. I don't know where some of them. They're so strange. That one, for example, out of totally whole cloth. You know, in a lot of times, you can find something where it was a misunderstanding or someone overheard only part of a sentence or something. But not this. Just like just recently, we discovered that there was a rumor-running rampant. Get this one. It doesn't have nothing to do with Jim. But up at Camp David, I slugged Lucky, our dog, and knocked her unconscious. Oh, really? I should wear that one. And I should wear. And how could that be? And it died a warning, because obviously it was nothing. I've never gotten mad at Lucky. That's a strange one, all right. Training her a little bit, making and so forth. I've had a rolled-up newspaper, and now I'm then paddled her rear end, which you're supposed to do with it, with a newspaper. But it was the most far-fetched thing I've ever heard. So I guess that's why we haven't heard any more about it. It died a warning. I don't think anybody would believe that one at all. At all. I wanted to ask you about the... The Hinckleys have just come out with a book. A John Hinckleys' parents. I saw his mother in the air the other day, and I thought I heard him say something about a book. Well, they had a big spread in the Washington Post, and I'm not sure why. But in fact, the one thing Jim Brady said to me, he said, we, meaning he and I, had better have as big a spread in the Washington Post as the Hinckleys did. But I just wondered, one thing that was in that interview Mrs. Hinckleys said, that she didn't want people to regard this incident as an evil act. But as a, what are your views on that? Are you... Well, from all of the story and the things that have come out about his infatuation and all of that, it certainly was the... It wasn't an act based on, let's say, well, like a terrorist act or a resentment of me or what I was doing or anything. He was looking for publicity and so forth, born of that infatuation. All I know is that when I asked for a little help for myself in recovery, I asked for it also for the fellow that had done it that he could get well too. That's pretty forgiving, huh? I must say. Tell me, you saw Jim before you left the hospital, I think you looked in on him. Do you recall that? Yes, I do, to see him. Did he... What did he say to you? Do you remember? I know he, at that time, was still having difficulty talking, so it was more, you know, encouraging him and telling him to get well and come back quick. How did... He must have been in pretty bad shape at that point. Yes, yes, he was. And no one was giving any... Were you surprised? No, because I'd kept up in the hospital with asking how he was coming since they had told me. I mean, by his... Taken aback by his looks or... No, Dr. Rougi had kind of prepared me that there'd be a time period there that I'd have to go by. Now, one little... I've talked to Jerry Parr, the Secret Service agent, who threw you into the car. And he says that you did not say, as Lou Cannon has in his book, you did not use... You did not say, I hesitate to say this to you, get off me, you son of a bitch. You said you did not say that. I didn't. Well, he said, and you never talk that way to people around you. Good Lord, I know. Well, I just wanted to get it from you. No, and I had no resentment at all. I knew why he'd dived on me and what he'd done. And as I say, and it was then after that, that suddenly I felt this pain. And no, I said, I think I broke in a rib. Did you... You knew why he had done it. Did you know immediately that there... Did you and he talk about the fact that there had been gunshots as you were going down Connecticut Avenue? Or was it just an assumption? No, I knew... In fact, I got a glimpse of him as I was thrown. Did you really? Yeah, he was so close. He was right there between the cameraman and the front line of the press corps. You got a glimpse of him shooting? Yes, and then knew that... Sorry, everybody running and everything, he was right there and he just... And the fact is that the bullet that hit me carried him off the car and came through the little gap between the door and the car. And it was about... I've seen it. And it was like a coin. It was flattened out and had black paint on it from the car. And so it hit me evidently on the way in when I was diving in. And then the car pulled out very fast and then I... He'd gotten off and he started to tell me he was sorry and I... But you actually caught a glimpse of this man shooting? Yes. Oh, for heaven's sake. Isn't that interesting? And I... So there was no question as to... No. I mean, you didn't need to talk in the car. Well... About what had happened. That's right, and we didn't have any knowledge of what was happening to anyone else. So we went there and... Jerry told me that you began to pick up speed and you probably hit 50 or 60 miles. Yes. Do you remember that? When the blood... Yeah, it started. Because at first, when I said this pain and that I thought it, you know, broken a rib when he jumped on me away, he said, well, I think we'd better go to the White House though, don't you? And I said, yeah. And then came the coughing and the blood and I... My first reaction was, okay, you've heard of that happening, a broken rib pierced the lung and that's why I'm bleeding. And he just turned to the driver and said that you were at Washington Hospital and we sat there and I... Two or three times I complained about that it seemed that I was having to... And that panicked me a little. When you have a feeling that you're getting less and less air, you think, what do I do if one of these times I take that and it doesn't... No air comes in. But... Was it... Pain was pretty terrific? Yes. And I have a hunch that was from the bone. You see, it hit a rib. That's what flattened... Well, the car flattened it out, but it hit a rib and they say that that happens, that that's a kind of a paralyzing pain and then it tumbled down through the lung and they found it about an inch from my heart. I've been going over all the literature and that fascinating article that was done on it and so forth and I will be writing about that to a certain extent. I'm glad to have your first person. Did anyone fill you in though on all the little series of miracles that happen and how much worse it could be? For example, the staff meeting at the hospital? No. Well, all the doctors were just concluding a staff meeting. They were all there. Every level of surgery and doctor connected with the hospital. Otherwise there could have been that gap of having to send for a doctor and so forth, but when the word was brought to them I had quite a surgical staff. It was a big crowd when they came and that was when I said, I hope that they were all Republicans. Yes. Yeah, there are a number of wonderful quotes before surgery and after which I plan to sprinkle through the book. I assume those are all accurate. All those wonderful... It's about that crowd standing around somebody or entertaining them suddenly. See, I just realized I have not asked you what your reaction was just going back a little bit. What was your reaction to the killer tree's incident? Jim Brady's, remember, he ran down the aisle of the press plane pointing out the window at a burning forest fire yelling killer trees, killer trees. Got him into some hot water. Oh, well, but this was... and I thought it was funny, this was after I had cited this very eminent scientist from... I think it was Texas A&M who had cited with all the furor about air pollution and so forth he gave the facts and figures on how much of it was pure nature that if you could wipe out all the man-made sulfur dioxide in the air you'd still have over a third as much as we presently have that is just coming daily from nature. And then I remembered the other one, the fact that haze over the Blue Ridge Mountains that they talk about, that haze is what is known in smog is oxides of nitrogen and that the trees emit it. And so it was one day and the press was after us on things of that kind. I cited the need to have some common sense about environmental problems and not go off in a panic about everything and cited some of these things. Well, some of the press started in on me that I had called the trees killers, the killer trees and so forth. So Jim was just responding to them and their charge. Did you think it was funny at the time? Yeah, I didn't think anything about it. Why did some of our people... Well, he was taken off the plane for a week. Good Lord. And Mark Dever put him back on. I know that for... For heaven's sakes. Well, he was very quiet about it. He wasn't very proud of it, I can tell you that. Well, some things like that, I guess they just never bothered telling me and I never paid attention to putting staff, you know, moved or something between stops. Let me just take a quick look here. What do you think of it? I wish I'd known about it. I think that's pretty funny. Burning the killer trees. Well, I understand you mentioned your movie Hellcats of the Navy yesterday when you were at the Annapolis. And I just want you to know that I saw it and I thought it was terrific. Well, thank you. That and a lot of other of your movies. There was a retrospective when you first took office and I made a point of watching all of them every day and I thought they were all terrific. Well, thank you. I was mad at the studio for the title because it was from a book written by the admiral, one of the top admirals in the Pacific War and the book was Operation Hellcat. And that was all based on a true incident that in the war the Japan was existing totally on the ship traffic across the Sea of Japan from the mainland for supplies and so forth that they must have. And the Navy organized Operation Hellcat in which a whole group of submarines at a given or went in went through the submarine nets into the Sea of Japan to designated spots, sank to the bottom and laid there and waited and then at the moment of the heaviest traffic of ships and everything at a given moment every one of them came to the surface and between them literally wiped out the Japanese merchant marine in that one operation. And Operation Hellcat sounded to me kind of like war's over and I kept remembering that the Navy in the old days used to have an airplane called the Hellcat. And so to call it the picture Hellcats of the Navy I understand your objection. Yeah, the other one, Operation Hellcat would have a little you'd be a little curious about that. The other one sounded like well, are we Hellcats on shore leave or what do they mean? Yes. In doing the scene and all of a sudden she was actually crying for real saying goodbye and as she realized what she was doing then she started to laugh she was crying and laughing we had to say cut and start over again she got over herself. I'll have to watch it again sometime and look for that scene she was good she was really good I was impressed. She had met her she didn't have much time before we got married to to do many pictures over there but those that she did I thought were darn good she did one with Rameland in which he they were both employed at a university and his wife and child there was an explosion in their home and they were killed he started going a direction that was toward suicide and Nancy saw this had been a friend but she was also engaged to someone else and then of course he couldn't quite understand but her concern was and then as it developed as the picture came on it was finally a great scene where she stopped Rameland from the point of suicide and then you learned why she could see this she had come to that same point herself once in her life and she saw all the signs in him Do you remember the name of that woman? Night into morning Night of Night unto morning Night unto morning I have to have a retrospective of her feeling sometime I see I think I do I think I do and I certainly certainly appreciate this I'll try to do a good job on the book I'm sure you will it's a great project wonderful opportunity for me it's been a wonderful thing to know Jim and Sarah and I need all of you especially you need my help oh so I get unwired I see great pleasure me also bye bye