 It's not time to start yet, but last year, those of you who might remember me from last year, I took some questions before my talk and it can be about anything you're interested in. I'm an ex-police officer, I'm a college professor right now, I teach criminal justice. So if anyone has a question about anything, what I'd like you to do is just step to the mic and ask the question. The only requirement I have is I need you to say, hypothetically, and the reason for that is, here in Nevada I do not have a law license and it's actually a crime to give legal advice outside their state that you're licensed in. So you're either going to have to say hypothetically or you're going to have to say, this happened in Missouri, that's where my license is at. And I'll start off with, I had a couple of questions last year and if you're that guy, or guys who ask those questions, raise your hand, we won't laugh at you. But the strangest question I had last year was, what do you know about black helicopters? I have no idea why that guy thought I had the inside track on black helicopters except I did spend some time in Wyoming and at the time he just sort of threw me off, I didn't really have an answer. And actually I do have an answer now. The black helicopters do exist. And what I did was out in Wyoming, some of you guys know that's the last areas we still actually have missile silos and these missile silos are just out in the middle of nowhere. You'll be driving along, usually you're going to need a four-wheel drive, but you drive along and all of a sudden you'll run into a missile silo, they'll just simply have a chain link fence around it and some barbed wire on top. And I'll have some cameras and surveillance equipment, that type of stuff. But you can go right up to the fence and only black helicopters, I know they actually exist according to the sheriff deputy I talked to you about in Wyoming is those who respond to people who go and look at these missile silos up close because you can, you can walk right up to them and within 20 feet of them. And they're pretty secure obviously because they're designed to withstand atomic blast. So there's not a whole lot that any of us could actually do to the silo. The other strange question I got and it made me kind of paranoid was a young man who walked up and told me that he wanted to rig his computer up to destroy his hard drive and he began to ask me about the various techniques to do that and someone we're pretty grand is he here today using thermite which I don't know anything about thermite but he began to describe how he wanted to use some thermite to take care of his hard drive if the feds ever kicked his door in. And I really didn't have an answer I knew it was something I'd probably get him in trouble obviously and I told him that but I did look into that and it is wrong to rig your computer up with thermite okay and actually it's gonna be a couple different felonies there it's probably a lot better to get caught with whatever you have on your hard drive than to start rigging devices like that to it okay. Why is it illegal? Hypothetically, why is it illegal? Any time you knowingly destroy evidence at the federal level I don't have the statute front of me but any feds here want to help me out? Any time that you knowingly destroy evidence even if that evidence is your evidence such as your hard drive it's a felony and usually it is punishable by a sentence that is heavier than the crime that you're probably guilty of unless it's something like child porn and we don't have none of those freaks here today right but if you're just a common hacker and I'm a common hacker you're a criminal hacker probably the charges are going to be put against you would result in lesser of the jailsons than if you did rig your hard drive with some kind of device and they could prove it that you rigged it for destroying evidence. Any questions at all? I would say hypothetically that it would become evidence just as soon as any evidence of crime exist on it and I know that doesn't answer your question real well but if you're out there and you obviously have some kind of track you lay down out there that is going to be used against you and you destroy that you could be fined and prisoned. I can't hear whoever's in back you're gonna have to come up to the mic. Self-incrimination I assume is what she is talking about. You have the right to remain silent but you don't have the right to destroy evidence. It's real I mean that's pretty clear. Yes well I would say this his question was what if you did a low-level format right is that it I guess the point you're wanting to make is if I destroy it just don't do a good enough job and their feds can retrieve it am I still gonna be in trouble for the act? The answer is yeah I mean it's you know they there's a reason why they like write the laws like this right because they want to make sure all the wiggle room is taken out there's no way to escape there's no way to get out and you know just a side note everyone in here knows it's a if you're talking to federal agent and you lie to them right it's a crime so I mean they they do this for a living they got figured out how to how to keep you from getting too far loose yes you know there's some cases on that and I can't give you an answer I'm sorry I hate to tell you yes or no when you go do one of the two yeah and you know that's the way I'm leaning they can force you to give up your password anyone know for sure anyone have that happen to them I think you can yeah okay everyone hear that it's a crime to lie to the federal agent he said which is true is it a crime for a federal agent to lie to you and the answer is in most cases no okay there's actually a Supreme Court case out there that says a cop can lie about just just about everything the only thing they can't basically I mean there's a few other exceptions we're going to but basically the only thing they can't lie to you about is telling you you got a deal okay in other words I can't say I want you to talk to me I'll make sure that you never spend a day in prison okay well unless they know for certain that's the case and you know they can't tell you that to compel you to talk they can't do that type of they can do anything else they want okay yes hypothetically I don't know if I'd spill coffee well I can't see him keep giving you coffee you know or spill this one I don't think they'll do that but yeah I mean 99% of the cases and some attorneys will say what do you mean 99 percent of the case 99% of the time not even that 95% of the time it is in your interest to remain silent now some of you going what's the other five percent okay the Defconn guys okay we're ready to start but let me finish this question because you guys are dying to know the other five percent of time okay the other five percent of the time and this is kind of I mean you won't like it that this is reality when I was a police officer I was a detective for a little while and you guys all know it's very common practice to give deals to the first person that talks if you're in it with a group of people okay you've committed a crime and they rounded you all up usually the first person that gives it up sometimes the first to that person is going to get a deal okay and some you know what sucks man that's not right nor can be out that's a reality I don't care I mean I seen thousands maybe not thousands but hundreds of criminals come before me and it's usually a race okay it is a race to see who can get the deal first if you don't believe me just read the newspaper okay talk to people who you know that have in fact been arrested and they could be on either side of that whoever got the deal first is probably the person that talked okay now I'm not telling you go do it because it's you know it's a it's a crapshoot right and I've seen brothers give up brothers husbands and wives to give up each other gel is not a nice place to be all right I'll try to take some more questions at the end if there is any I don't know but the clock and wall says it's time to learn about the Census Bureau he says any questions and answers has to be from the mic and I fear him so we better not do it all right my name is Steve Dunker a little bit background about myself I am a former police officer I currently teach at a Northeastern State University which is a regional university there in Oklahoma okay I teach criminal justice I am an attorney and that's probably the easiest way to explain how he even stumbled on this topic I was sitting in my office one day doing what college professors do and actually that day I was playing video games and I got a phone call and it is one of the phone calls that attorneys really don't like it was a phone call from a relative in trouble now of course relatives we know don't pay okay and they always get mad at you and then you got to go at Thanksgiving a Christmas and they frown at you and act like that you've shot their dog right so anyway in this particular case it was my sister okay now if we got any attorneys in the office you know you're talking about a case or you know violation of confidentiality one of the rules I have is if I take your case I get to tell everybody about it if you don't like that don't take me as your attorney right so they they understand the confidentiality is gone pretty much except for you know super secret stuff because I do seminars and talks like this and so she calls me up she says Steve they're gonna put me in jail I said well being a good brother well what'd you do you know cuz I figured she did something you know but now she's she's about 47 years old and not she's not really a troublemaker right she's a mom and all this other stuff and basically what happens she says it's the Census Bureau and all I could think is what the who and she says a Census Bureau and I said well what happened she goes when they sent me this form to fill out in the mail and it's really long and it has 36 questions for each member of the household I said yeah she goes in and asks these really personal questions even stupid stuff like what time do I go to work how do I get there what is my electric bill and so on and so forth and we'll get to those questions here in a little while okay and she said and it was invasion my privacy and I told this I when I first got the form I ignored it you know I just threw it away I wasn't gonna fill that out okay I'll tell her you collapsed maybe she'll like me at Thanksgiving more so anyway so I said okay so where's the jail part come in she goes well then I started getting phone calls and I said okay well what happened in these phone calls and she said well first time I picked it up and I said we're from the Census Bureau and you haven't turned in your form and we need to complete that form we can do it by phone right now if you want to and she told me well now that's a invasion my privacy I'm not gonna do it I you know I refuse to to participate you know her words of that sort okay and then she said by the way how did you get my phone number okay and according to her these are her their exact words the person on the other end of the line says we're the government we have our ways now most of it's going on you know you can Google people's name you can get their phone number that way but you have to understand my sister does some work from home and her boss put in a phone line just for her to use for her computer and for business related information okay well it's not in Google I checked okay it's not any of the other search engines I checked and somewhere you know I don't know what she filled out but somewhere someplace somehow she must have filled out the form or something that somehow linked her name to this phone number or the government is really super good at getting phone numbers I don't know anyway so she called me up and after the second phone call they sent a person out to visit her okay and these person knocked on her door and said hi I'm from the Census Bureau and my sister said I had told you I don't want to talk to you and then this person put a little bit of pressure on her well if you don't talk to us we're gonna have to notify the U.S. Attorney's Office my sister said what they said if you don't talk to us if you don't give us the information we're gonna have to notify the U.S. Attorney's Office that you're refusing to fill out the Census form and therefore you'll be in violation and you can get in trouble now of course my sister you know the U.S. Attorney's Office you know the prosecutor for the federal government and so that's when she decided to call me now that's probably your biggest mistake people are going yeah you know what can I do you know that right you mean something your biggest mistake is not calling attorney right away okay if she would have called me right away of course she didn't know it's gonna blow up like this we could have solved it pretty quick probably and you guys would learn how the end so anyway I start my work is my sister's attorney and I start researching this and the one thing I noticed and you guys will see in a little while is that there is there is not a whole lot of law out there as far as case law or incidents of this sort and it is kind of rare for this to happen anyone in here have the Census Bureau on your butt ever anybody okay I got a couple people talk to me after if you got the time okay I just like to hear some stories and other than just this one I'm working on the cases I found but let's go ahead and do some background because that's what you're here for right the Census Bureau is a U.S. government agency that quote I had up there for such a long time is directly from the U.S. Census web page and there I don't know if I call it bragging but they're the one you know they're made the statement we're the ones with information on every single person in America now if you think about even IRS don't have that okay but they have it supposedly there's two types of census forms you might run into and that's a census that they give out every 10 years there's a long form in a short form and then there's one called American Community Survey and that's what my sister ran into and it is from what I looked up every year a tenth of the population gets this American Community Survey it's about 36 pages long somewhere around in there and ask a lot of those questions and they also do some other surveys we won't get into it isn't it isn't the Constitution that the government has to do a census okay and basically what it says is every 10 years the government will do a census of the population and the basic reason for this was to figure out how to get representation in Congress right because if the population shifts we may have to redraw redraw some district lines as far as congressmen okay well in the beginning it was you know a good thought but since that time and actually immediately after you know in the early 18 1800s it was you know we like to think oh that's a better time there wasn't so much invasion of privacy but you'd be wrong they asked many of the same questions today obviously not about the modern conveniences but they ask a lot of the same questions today as they did in the 1800s census compliance 67% of the people in the USA fill out their census forms this is actually down and it's probably good news right usually it goes out of the way we got a lot of sheep out here in America and they just blindly fill out the forms but it's going the other direction now they're actually losing for some percentage points here's some of the questions that's on I broke them down in four categories this is the first one and these are some of the questions they ask now when we first look it's not a big deal on some of these questions right you know it can they really use the fact you're married against you well I don't know as you go through there I mean one that really the two that really stands out there as long as I bolded you know place of birth citizenship year of entry language spoken obviously if you are from the Middle East you probably feel a little bit uncomfortable filling that out right economic characteristics of the population here we go on we can see there's various other thing in occupation class of worker income you know anyone fear the IRS I mean you're giving this your income to the government can they accesses from the IRS well we'll talk about that in a minute physical characteristics of housing scenes pretty benign but we'll see later on this is actually can be used against you financial characteristics of housing blah blah blah in the past we've have seen some use of the census that can be questionable that's why I put miss up there besides the Nazi thing there depends on your viewpoint whether or not this was good or bad use of the census for example Sherman's March to the sea now any civil war buffs will tell you this was actually a huge event especially for Georgia and South Carolina in fact they have just now actually covered in the sounds kind of silly but Sherman's March to the sea was one of the first times that the American Army actually employed tactics against civilians okay and basically what happened in Sherman's March to the sea we're talking general Sherman he took his army and cut a 50 mile wide path through the middle of Georgia okay and later on he did it to South Carolina and when I say when he cut a path it was he burned down everything that was of economic value okay so if you imagine someone coming through wherever you live and they burned down every factory they burned down every well back then you know we're talking grist mills and saw mills and and any other type of economic possibility out there they burned it down okay they destroyed it all and they also took everything from everyone you know we see some of the civil war movies like cold mountain or something like that the Union troops show up and they just take all your livestock in fact that's where the census comes in general Sherman had to find a path he decided he was going to take this move Abraham Lincoln said yeah go ahead and do it and he had to feed his army off the land and one of the things he did he got out the census forms for that area and he studied it and he said where can I go to feed my army and he used the information from those forms to direct his path and in fact by the he talks about in his memoirs that by the time they were done they had better horses than they started out with they had two or three times more cattle than they started off with remember this is you know 150 years ago and they drove a cattle herd along to feed the troops and basically everything they started out with that when they ended up they had everything better and more of and that was all by taking it from the civil population to this day if you go to that part of the country anyone from that part of the country Sherman is considered Satan okay and this isn't you think man it's 150 years it don't matter he destroyed that area the country so bad that to this day they curse and spit his name I don't know do you curse and spit his name ever but he does it's not a joke he he calls so much hardship now I put up their misuse he will say yes that's a misuse of the census now if you're the northern sympathizer that was good planning right you're going yeah that's good idea good idea that's that's way to do it now moving on because probably running a long time let's talk about Germany okay now this is before the Nazis you know we all hate Nazis right if you don't if you do like Nazis I'm sure you can go out back here and a line will form and you know we'll kick your butt I'll have to be in the middle somewhere because I'm old and fat but you know if you're Nazi sympathizer but before the Nazis the German government gathered all this information on its citizens and it asked obviously we're getting to the Nazis he'd ask all kinds of personal questions right and good ol IBM you want a fan of IBM IBM helped him out this was in the early days of computers right I don't know I'm not a techie I can't remember the name the computer they use or the sorter but IBM helped the German government help the Nazis and there's couple books on this end up killing eight million people now we hear a lot about six million people those are six million Jews but what's overlooked a lot is there's two million other people killed in those camps everything from religious people to homosexuals to I mean anybody that was outside the mainstream gypsies they could all be put in the camp and the way they did that basically was through the census all right you guys probably heard of this too we'll try to get through it real quick this is another misuse possible misuse of the census and I say that and I probably got what do you mean possible misuse I'm on the Oklahoma War Archive board and when I talked to these old people who've been in the war war two is what I'm talking about at that time they really thought you know the first couple years of the war they thought there's a great possibility that they were going to lose okay they just had these huge losses all over the world and it wasn't clear cut that the Japanese and the Nazis were we're gonna be defeated and so with that in mind you have to understand what they did I wasn't alive then and I don't know what I would have thought now today we look at how they rounded up all these poor Japanese had nothing to do with anything well you got to look at the times you know I'm not making excuses for them but I know talking to these older people they were scared okay and this wasn't this wasn't Iraq okay this was the whole world was at war and there was a question whether or not our country was gonna survive well anyway they used the the census information to round up all these Japanese okay they also rounded up 11,000 Germans and Italians now I don't know why such a big pride because we just had so many Germans and Italians in America you can around them all up like you could the Japanese but the thing I found interesting in researching this as you can see there December 7th 1941 we were attacked what's really interesting and this is for your conspiracy bus that they produced a report on the 9th of December and on the 10th of December describing the locations of the Japanese now we could do that today with our computers right I mean we could just real quick but I don't know if or how they were able to produce those reports I mean we're talking the era of filing cabinets and typewriters and they were able to produce the names and information about every Japanese within two days after Pearl Harbor any conspiracy theorist out there thought it was interesting okay they were they were using computers okay well I'm not a techie to me the old cards orders okay okay that's still two days I mean maybe I'm just too suspicious two days is awful fast for 1941 I would suspect but now people were scared yeah smart ass people were scared all right miss you so the census epic you anyone ever heard of them night or 19 I'm stuck in the 90s 2004 epic filed a foyer request remember information act request and wow what did they discover they discovered the Department of Homeland Security had asked for information on people from Arab descent okay now once again I put it up there to let you guys decide was this good or bad okay now I'm gonna tell you this story I teach criminal justice and I have a diverse population and in my classes and one of the things we talk about is race profiling okay and usually we have a pretty good discussion because I do have blacks in there and Hispanics and whites and Indians and everything else we have a pretty good discussion and in fact what really startled me was usually you know like I said it you know everyone can agree and and say race profiling is a bad thing except for Arabs and I looked at my class I said what I said what are you talking about well you know if you're waiting in line at the airport right we all did that and there's a couple Arab looking guys I think they need to be checked and I don't know and the and the interesting thing was this is a young black man who's telling me this I said well you know I got a ash or you're a young black man have you ever been a victim of racial profiling he says yeah yeah but that don't matter if you're Arab and you're in the airport and I said okay now we laugh and you might think that's bad but you know there's comedian on Comedy Central last month then I was preparing this the same matters preparing some of this he was talking about you know yeah I sit on airplane and if I see Arab looking guy he's back behind me I'll turn around I'll stare at him the whole plane you know whole plane ride just to watch him you know and that's probably kind of true okay now I know some you're not being very politically correct but you know let's face it if some Arab looking guy came in here dropped a backpack right in the middle and said all those great and ran out the door only the people sleeping would still be in their chairs probably now I'm not saying it's right okay I'm just saying it's human nature now what about this is this legal is this legal how could the Department of Homeland Security request this information how could the Census Bureau give it to him and the answer is it's legal it's legal now they didn't give individual names but what they did is gave the they produced this big list of the population centers with Arab communities and of course when crap hit the fan the excuse they gave was we wanted the data in order to determine where to place Arabic language signs and Arab airports now we all flew here many of us flew here and I want you to do this on the way home when you get to your airport I rechecked there's none in Las Vegas when you get to your airport wherever you're going look for those Arabic signs okay I don't think you'll probably see any I know you want to see Arabic sign at the airport in the way got one what city okay Kansas City okay okay so maybe it is only the Kansas City office that got that membo I went to law school in Kansas City and so I spent three years there and I don't know I you know I've seen a lot of this town I don't remember two years ten years ago but I don't remember too many Arabic people there but you know maybe that's changed it Dallas Dallas Washington okay DC they do have one okay they're hidden all right what is the privacy policy of the Census Bureau well the privacy policy is that is against the law they can actually receive a pretty hefty fine of $5,000 if they actually and they'll tell you this they'll tell you they're pretty proud of that no Census workers ever giving out any personal information on anybody it is against the law it is against the law to reveal any private information about an individual now what they did in the Homeland Security case is they did not give it on an individual they gave it on the community okay and they'll tell you that about the Japanese roundup to they said we did not actually give personal information on Japanese we just told them what block they lived on well years later it was revealed to actually did give out names okay another real quick comment there's a section on the census website that talks about how they want to start organizing their data and they would like the Census Bureau would like to use social security numbers and so they did a test run they went out and they did a test run and they tried when they selected a cross-section of the community or the country and they ask ask them to fill in the social security number then they ask them how they felt about it and believe it or not the majority of Americans have no problem with giving the social security number over to the Census Bureau right now they do not do that since the bureau does not use social security numbers but it's something they want to implement and I'm thinking they might try it for the 2010 census we'll see what happens we keep that in mind right now that is not the case but the Census Bureau wants to potential misuse of data well you know you guys are hackers and you know way more ways to take this type of data and use it I just what was the case a guy how much money was he able to sell all those ALL email addresses for wasn't a couple million or something like that I don't know there's plenty of ways if you could get hold of this data you could use it for all kinds of profitable means in fact the Census Bureau if you go there's page right now you can go through and look at some of the data right now okay and there's companies out there to take this data and they crunch it and they turn around they sell it and they sell it for a lot of money the cheapest set of data discs that I've seen out there is around 300 bucks okay so there's some potential out there and I'll go on say well Dunker told me he goes still from the Census Bureau I'm not telling you that so it's out there and the trouble is if you're concerned about your privacy we know hackers never ever get hold of private information right you guys those of you who are good never run across information accidentally or otherwise that is considered very private the government what kind of potential misuse of data can the government well place a birth citizenship we already seen that in the Homeland Security issue right which by the way if you go to the epic website I mean they they took their FOIA request and the information they got and they posted it all it's kind of interesting to read it if you have nothing else to do you might drop by there and take a look at it language spoken we certainly all can understand the idea of you know there there may be some profiling there that type of stuff but I want you to think a little bit more about yourself now some of you have special skills special application occupations and if things ever got really bad okay and they started the draft up and this is not going to happen anytime soon but if they need your skills what do they do you get a little notice in the mail saying guess what you're now in the army okay now in the past they usually did this like to doctors and dentist and stuff like that right okay but you know what it's a new future right you guys some of you have very good skills that the government would like to have control over okay these you know we can see this now you know you guys some of you probably familiar some of you probably participated in this partnership between the government and private industry and you know securing the computers and stuff like that that's one way they're trying to improve their their security but things got bad one of the things that we do is they just call you up say guess what private you know hopefully they give you some rank you know right the other thing if you were really really paranoid okay and I'm not really a paranoid guy okay sometimes I am but I was talking to my doctor one day he's a friend of mine our kids play on the soccer team and and this was back when they had the anthrax problems and he told me he goes well you know the problem is that the government sucked up all the antibiotics said what said you know this is like four years ago for those of you keeping track he says well there's nothing we can do because what the government has done they stepped in and they grabbed all of the drugs that is used to fight an anthrax infection I said wow I didn't know they could do that and he said yeah they can do it because they went in took everything the only thing left was whatever's on pharmacy shelves everything in the warehouses everything at the manufacturer was scooped up and it was held in reserve for government officials okay I don't know what count as a government official but you guarantee none of us did okay maybe some of you feds okay but the rest of us we weren't gonna get any antibiotics okay so well you know what's that have to do with the Census Bureau well you know there hasn't been a lot in the last month about the bird flu okay but everybody in here knows or should know that was a tamiflu there's a shortage of it okay when it comes down to deciding who gets the tamiflu they're gonna work their way down from the top okay now if you're like me you're kind of screwed no one wants to save a college professor now especially a lawyer okay lawyer jokes your bastards former cop might save me no but you guys might have advantage here if you're some high security high tech I don't know because you know I don't know the proper term because I'm a lawyer I'm not a tech guy but it may behoove you to fill out your census form and let him know how skilled you are in computers area because if they're gonna thin the herd so to speak if they only have enough doses for half of America right and they have to decide who to give it to they're not gonna give it to the college professor they're gonna give it to the people that matter now I'm not sucking up to you I'm just kind of envious of you if you got skills you matter to America okay the college professor lawyers dead the computer uber technician lives okay something to think about so those of you here with your boyfriend or girlfriend who has all the skills and you don't just tell them goodbye now okay honey can I have some of your tamaflu no physical characteristics of housing okay this actually has been used against people in the past legally and I don't think we'll get to but we got some cases that's in your folders you'll see basically what what has been done is the federal government does a census and then they publish it and a lot of people you get hold of it and some of the the slime ball city officials in certain towns have got hold of this and what they look for is some of the housing characteristics as you know especially some of your landlords sometimes you're in violation of code okay for whatever reason and this has been used in the past to attack well if that's a good word to come after and kick people out of housing and to shut down rental houses and everything else because of these cold violations all obtained from the census now it's not widespread it's not you know like every town doesn't but there has been some recorded incidences where they did use this census data to do it IRS can IRS get hold of your census form the answer is they tried in fact they had a big program where they were going to go through an attempt to find people they say who were not paying taxes these people were not filing returns and so what they wanted to do is use a census bureau information to locate and catch these people well this was not successful I'll tell you this the main reason it was not successful is because the computers at that time were not up to the need all right they the any federal computer workers in here sometimes just getting one agency computer talk to another one there's a problem and that's what one of the things that happened all right census laws will blow through this all the way back in 1790 you could be in trouble for not doing the thing I would do want to talk about this 1976 they tried to pass a law that actually lock you up if you did not fill out the census form if you did not fill out the census form you can get some time if you filled it out with a false answer you could get some time it failed now why did I bring that up because the amount of compliance with the census is going down it has been they got to do something and I think probably we'll see something pop back up where they try to force people to fill out these census forms this is the current law right here basically says if you give a false answer and I blasted through another slide basically if you give a false answer you can be fine 500 bucks that doesn't sound like a whole lot right unless you're me I'm a college professor I don't make much money 500 bucks is a lot of money well that's a slide I missed it's $100 right the slide before this that I blasted through basically says that if you refuse to fill out the form you can be fine $100 now something you got that's not a big deal that's not a big deal except the census people tell you that's per question per question now the courts right now or there's you know like I said in the very beginning there's not a lot of cases cases on this right now you do the math a hundred let's say you're refused to fill it out a hundred bucks a question there's 36 questions for every member your household that's at least $3,600 if you're married quick someone do the math I'm a lawyer not a mathematician case law so you got well you know what this is an invasion of privacy this is my fourth amendment rights well actually mr. Rickenbacker tried that and the court said you know what the government has a reason to do this and so we're gonna let him do it right that's pretty fancy lawyer talk there the government has that the bottom paragraph is right out of the the holding and basically the court says it's okay we'll let you do that that's a 1960s case believe it or not there are some rebels back in the 60s and 70s and this particular group of rebels called their self the census resistant movement the census resistance movement now hopefully this time next year I don't know is there gonna be a census resistant movement out there on the internet I looked it's not in existence now when you radicals are probably do it I don't know these two people are from Hawaii they're probably still alive they're probably in their 50s or 60s and basically what happened was they were young folks and they were living in Hawaii and the census information came out and basically they started this group that did all kind of stuff they begin to publish editorials and newspapers they went on the radio and had like little advertisements and so on and so forth well the census bureau got pissed okay and they took four cases to the U.S. Attorney to prosecute in fact they were prosecuted and in fact they were found guilty now the judges in those case I know this is 19 I think it's like 72 73 they were pretty lenient they gave them $50 fines okay and even in today's money that's well like 250 bucks I'm like that okay so it wasn't too bad well still in danks they didn't like the outcome so they appealed it and basically what they are they argued several different things okay but the one they were successful on is they were being punished for their first amendment rights and actually their cases were overturned because they were selected for this this persecution okay I was looking more along the lines of the example okay now I did up so it's still persecution now when I was doing my sister's case back to that for a little while I happened to run into one of the top of criminal attorneys in the state of Missouri of course he doesn't know me from Jack but I went up and asked a weird question because you know he didn't know me from Jack and so I went up and asked him I said have you ever heard anyone being prosecuted for census violation and he looked at me and he said yes I said well I can't find any on the books can you tell me where to find it and he says well they're not on the books what usually happens is every time around since this time is they'll make an example to go to every state and make an example of anybody who refuses to do this and they'll put in the newspaper make a big publicity out of it now remember this though there's 300 million people here in America two-thirds fill out the form one third doesn't you do the math right well your chances of being that one person well I guess it could happen but if you become a census resistor right you might go after that thing where they prosecuted me is a prosecutural misconduct selecting me for this no one else got it so I guess that might be able to save you a little bit but I wouldn't count on it this isn't Hawaii in that case is only good in Hawaii so what do you do they come they knock on your door they're badgering you now this is where I don't want to get in trouble because I can't encourage anyone to commit a crime so I'm gonna tell you all right now fill out your census form and turn it in now with that out of the way so they don't prosecute me I'll tell you this what do you do if you refuse to answer can they do anything to you what have you learned today do you give false answers everyone shake your head no do you remain silent one of the stakes and I did ask my sister this I said why did you answer that phone you got caller ID she said because it did not say US Census Bureau now let's say that you decide to do one of these refused to answer hopefully you do not give false answers because that's a big bigger risk right you decide to remain silent so and so forth what will the census people do to you well as I looked to the internet for that answer really do you find a whole lot I did find some out of them you know some people saying I did it and they just went away they just went away I can't guarantee that okay but what I can guarantee you as if you don't do anything they will go talk to your neighbors believe or not the census Gestapo will show up at your house if you don't talk to them they'll go next door and I'll say hey what's your neighbor do for a living hey how many kids do they have you know where he works at what town how far does he drive well what's your electric bill here and they'll go through the whole process of filling out the census form using the information from your neighbors now some are going well my neighbors don't know anything about me okay that's probably good but it is something to think about right they'll try to get it one way or another all right now I'm gonna try this and I got a question yes I would say your neighbor has no liability at all you want to know what the neighbor refuses to answer they have no liability as long as they filled out their own census form they don't have any requirements to fill out anyone else's yes sounds like a great defense to me she says what if you go traveling a lot you're on the East Coast for a while West Coast for a little while what are you gonna be in trouble and I said I would say the only thing I'll say is sounds like a great defense I mean yes if your neighbors really hate you and they give wrong answers I mean you're fine I mean you're not responsible for their answers obviously you're still responsible for not filling it out yes okay it is federal prosecution the US Census Bureau is a federal agency so look they'll take it to the US Attorney's office and file federal charges against you I wouldn't say that's your only obligation you're obligated to fill out the form they sent you as a way I read it okay now I will tell you this real quick that a lot of people got upset and they called their senator and their congressman okay now what is interesting and I don't know the reason for this but the Republican senators and I'm from a Republican state they they replied and it's in the newspaper now this doesn't keep you out of getting a fine but most of the Republicans said only fill out the first six questions the first six questions are your name your race you know that the basic stuff that you know they need to decide on the number of representatives from your area you know in Congress anything other than that don't fill out and all the Democrats for whatever reasons were silent on this they didn't say one way or another anything all filled out or don't fill it out and I'm not sure what the what's going on with that because I'll tell you right now don't throw stuff at me I am a Republican but you know yeah I know anyway this is Democrat territory usually it's a Democrat saying oh we want to protect people's rights you know we want to make sure you know their privacy is protected but now all of a sudden it's the other way around what's going on I don't know Republicans saying no that's invasion of privacy don't fill that out you know big government doesn't need to be in your life blah blah blah and now all of a sudden Democrats are going yeah it's okay just do with your toe yes you know that's a good question that hasn't been in court at all you know like I said there's been very few cases the trouble is with this is most people when they go to court it's kind of like a traffic ticket you pay your hundred bucks and you don't appeal it well when you don't appeal it there's no record of it not all court cases are wrote in the books and when you don't appeal it to hire court it doesn't get wrote into the books okay our written in the books yes he wanted other people who don't respond what kind of data as it is collected and record I don't know I don't know I didn't want to do this if you have more questions come up I think I've got probably got like three minutes left or something like that and I want to screw with the other two rooms okay and what I want to do I need some tech help from this I this came to me in the middle of the night I don't know if it's gonna work but we want to screw with everybody else it's not in this room okay we want to make them think that somehow your DEFCOM badges have been compromised at the manufacturer the DEFCOM people had nothing to do with it they in fact were owned also but somehow the NSA or somebody else has put in an extra circuit here that enables it to be tracked now once again I'm not attacking you guys are going to fill in the blanks to convince these other rooms that this is a possibility now I realize we're not gonna fool a whole lot of people but you know there's a lot of paranoid people in this world okay and at this convention so this is a secret right we're not gonna tell anybody well I want you to go out and discuss this around people who are not here okay oh man I can't believe that and we'll make up a story this is a story we're gonna make up that my talk was interrupted by some tech head he comes running up here and he says I've x-rayed or the badge and I found this hidden circuit and I I've explored it and this is what it looks like we've been tagged like animals our FID says the tech heads we have all been tagged like animals and some unknown agency out there is gonna track us to row our homes okay and the only way to stop this is tin foil okay tin foil is the only way to stop this government tracking of us okay now I don't know like I said we're just you know I realize I don't know how many people are in here maybe a thousand that still leaves five thousand in other rooms okay you know if we can just screw with 200 people okay if 200 people can go home with tin foil on their badges I think we've accomplished our goal right so once again it is a secret right all right he says the battery can make it an active RFID that can be tracked up to a mile okay like I said I'm not a tech guy I'm relying on you guys right spread this story you know you gotta do it don't come out so you know you know let's see what happens let's see if I mention it at the wrap-up ceremony in a couple hours right so just drop this information let your friends squirm you know yes up someone's actually gonna use a microphone you mentioned you can get the data from via CD at one point you could also get it from their site via FTP okay everyone hear that you can FTP to the site you can actually just go there you know with your browser HTTP whatever pro-collect is I'm a lawyer not a tech guy I will say this because I did leave this part out right now one of the things my my client my sister was worried about is she lived in the area her house is among all these businesses she's one of those holdouts right she she bought a house and the businesses grew up around her and she was worried that when you look at the census block the census track that you could find out any information you could about her because she was the only residential area our residential home in this area and so I was concerned about that and I looked it up and I asked a professor who operates in this area and he says no what they do is when they have that when they have the information where you can actually look at one house and you figure what can you know correlate that to the data what the census is supposed to do is flip that in other words they insert false information from another trances census block into her area and they take hers and stick it over here it doesn't throw off the numbers enough to matter they say but that way you're not getting really personal data it's not an individual thing but then my thought was well yeah now they just have false data that they think is hers right you know it could be bad maybe the person on the other end knows you know trouble makers yeah oh yeah the end of the story is I'm telling her I just hold on hold on I'll get to the bottom list and then one day I called her up I hadn't heard her from her lawyers take a while right I called her up and she says I just went ahead and gave them the data I can't afford to lose that much money I couldn't you know even $100 I couldn't do and so I just I just caved in and gave them the information this is in census but what about voter registration and precinct size and whether you voted and your affiliation to a party when you go to a primary to me it seems you can get down to pretty close who's who and who's voting and who's voting for who you know I think that's true you know and I'm running out of time one thing I'm actually in in my area the kind of Oklahoma you can go vote without an ID and this actually kind of I wonder well how they know who I am all I do is I go in and I sign my name right and then I get to vote and that's about right I mean this is Oklahoma politics and you know I don't know anyone have that same thing they I think y'all at least show an ID but other people said no you make them show an ID you know then you can track them or you can intimidate them or something like that yes sir have you seen the county level global information services information that is available on most local county government websites you know I haven't actually gone to one but they do the overflights in February they can you can tell what kind of flowers you have planted in front of your house and I'll tell stories on a guy I used to work with he actually went out and camouflage his new barn with the idea that well if you know what he's talking about they're going around taking photographs and they use that to determine your taxes and so he can afford the netting to put over his barn so he went up and painted the roof with the idea that you know if they showed up in the right season you know maybe they want to see the see the new barn good what was the caller ID when they called your sister she unknown caller which I don't answer those anyway good I'm sorry that you can't get in trouble lying to him like you could lying to an FBI agent or at least that's my opinion don't hold me to it they actually are anybody in here can be a census worker they are temp workers okay and they usually get paid it depends on what part of the country in my part of the country they get paid 10 bucks an hour anyone in here dare raise your hand say yes I was a census worker but yeah I think it's like 10 to 14 bucks an hour your temp you go in you work you know 20 30 hours a week tracking these people down and they're not doing evil they're not evil people they just wanted a job right you know I didn't look to see whether a census worker could get in trouble for recording false answers I bet you that that probably happens anytime you got pressure for somebody you can you can you know to get a job done alright they're telling me I'm over I appreciate you guys listening remember it's a secret screw with the neighbors