 Thank you very much for being here. It's amazing me in Asia bringing our experience so I'm not here to Give lectures about how you can set up an organization We had a worship. Yes. I was very interesting Having a discussion on that today. I just would like to tell you about my experience So there's one thing that I've learned in the last years and this is what I want to talk about So maybe this I think this is very important for all of us. So I would like to share it So this is me. You can find me around web, of course my name is tell you over Zara and I Have a problem. I've tried to explain to my parents what I do for a living for the last 20 years and Probably they starting to get it now The thing is actually my job kept changing as I guess most of yours So I started working When internet arrived to Europe. I was like 18 or 19 while I started and at that time Sorry, I need to have also a timer. So I have time so at that time It was something for IT people for geeks But the company started to see it as a strategic asset And that's what I started doing helping them using making something out of this new tool then things kept changing and Dynamics that internet brought in started changing the markets the information processing power the power shifted from big players a few big players To the public and so I set up my first company when I was 24 25 so this is on I kept following this change and Just now connecting the dots back. I can understand what I've been doing and there are two ways of saying that so the first way is that Actually, I've been helping Companies in their evolution since I was 19 Second way to say that probably is more realistic is that I've been causing new troubles to organizations So my job is helping them move for the current troubles to new troubles to face So this is why if you look for me on LinkedIn and I set myself up as a professional troublemaker And I think that's what still a lot of us do So I would like this line to Introduce one of the two people that is they are going to help me in this through this talk Which is Marshall McLuhan who knows Marshall McLuhan, please raise your hands All right, Marshall McLuhan is a visionary that foresee the Global village in the 60s. He became famous for well. He was famous in the academic Environment, but he became famous on the mainstream for an article that he published In interview of him. He's been published on Playboy in 1969. He's quite a genius He is the author of the quotes the medium is the message which might you might have heard around So Marshall McLuhan said that every society honours is like life conformist and it's that trouble makers. I Don't know about honours. I'm for sure. I'm alive at the moment and I'm causing a lot of trouble So this is about trouble again I had this company that I funded in 24 when I was 24 hours 24 years old and we went quite good on the markets for eight years like international Customers we work to land rover airplane manufacturing local customers as well went quite good for a while and What we were doing today, we might well at the time it was called Innovation in marketing actually we were developing conversation between the companies and their external stakeholders using the new media Then you might heard heard about the crisis that hit the whole world and for sure, Italy and in 2010 this is how my company turned out we crashed it simply and There was my first company had put like almost ten years of my life in there and I spent one of the worst summers of my life like this My wife who she's here knows better Now the problem is not you're losing a company the problem is that it tackles your identity It tackles what you think about yourself and You start asking yourself what I did what I did what did I do wrong and what I maybe did do right? Fortunately, I wasn't alone in that we had launched that company with a couple of other people Actually, we were already tired of using our nights to help land rover with all the respect selling their cars or Airplane manufacturers selling their airplanes. We were feeling the need to creating real value for people So actually this was a chance to stop and reflect on what we wanted to be in the next phase of life of our lives Of course, my parents. I was I don't know. I was very probably 30 something My parents were pushing for finding me a job. Okay. Now. It's time. You find a job. What you have done is not having a job No, you have a company a lot of risk. This is also a common way of thinking in Italy I know that maybe in the United States can be different But in Italy, they want you to be safe Actually, I have never ever looked for a job I've never looked I have never been through a job interview actually once or twice, but I was curious about the company I wasn't looking for the job So when we stopped we asked ourselves, so what is it that we have done good and there were two things That we were working on already with the last company our previous one and When we Decided that we wanted to create a new company. We wanted to take those two things with us to create value So one thing was the concept of the value stream So you might have heard about lean thinking lean management who knows about lean? Please rise your hands. So I get the feeling. All right, so I don't have to tell you that this is all about Streamlining your value creation and taking ways to mood out of it We loved this way of thinking and we started understanding that not all companies are created To generate value. There are other reasons why people run companies like creating career career paths distributing power It's tricky, but we wanted to focus on value creation Second thing beyond the lean thinking body of knowledge from Taishi ono to agile actually Was the body of knowledge of open collaboration? Which is merging value streams? In order to create something that is way beyond the sum of the individual parts Something that is organic on its own We were working in this actually we were doing this for our customers and we thought now okay This is something that we want to build into our new company So before I tell you what happened Let me step a little bit back and give you a background of what were our reflections Don't worry. Not till the Egyptians This slide is to introduce what happened in the last century, which you probably already know So I will be quite a fast on that so after Taylor a virtually invented Modern management Dividing people that think in a company from people that do that execute we've been designing companies for one century For them in order to be durable stable and predictable That was possible because the structure of the markets in the last century Had a very low complexity Few players like 1% of the players control the dynamics of 99% of the markets And so the variability was quite low you could in the 70s You could foresee the future of your company for 10 or 15 years and have a plan on that now It looks crazy ten years from now is going to be science fiction and literally So this thing Generated some organization that actually was well designed There is a big body of knowledge about organization design in order to be durable stable and predictable The thing is when crisis hit we've seen all of our customers including the big ones and ourselves Completely unable to adapt to what was changing at that rate Because we had started since we've been with our small company who had been eight or nine years on the market We had started to structure ourselves and the more we structure ourselves the less Adapty we were able to be Actually this thing was creating quite a few problem all over the world and This was foreseen from by the other person. I want to introduce you just Peter Drucker. Who knows Peter Drucker? Please raise your hands. Okay, so I will not say a thing about him This is the beginning of a nice book Which is the post-capitalist society and he says that every few hundred years in Western history there occurs a sharp Transformation within a few short decades society rearrange itself 50 years later there is a new world and the people born there Cannot even imagine the world in which their grandparents lived and into which their own parents were born We are currently living through such a transformation and he wrote this in the 90s So this is a transformation that now we it's mainstream. We all have recognized Just a few ones recognized it in the 90s like Peter Drucker That's why he's a I mean he's like a lighthouse for management and This transformation is probably going to finish in the 20s or 30s living us with a completely different words So what happened is that everything we have worked with just collapsed and this created a Few set of consequences. So the first one on the job in in companies. These are numbers from Gallup I think 2013 research global workplace and 89% is the number of people found unengaged at work This is these number are from Western Europe. Okay 89% is engaged of which 26% Actively disengaged so disengaged means that these people basically go to work just because they need money Actively disengaged. They don't they don't care about the company that much But if they're actively disengaged, they're trying to contrast the company and the other workers Anytime they can because they are hungry with the company By the way, these are the numbers for India. So almost there are a little worse. Okay, this is available So this is first consequence then you might have heard also of occupy movement Arab Spring. So this kind of thinking that is for the first time after more than a century finding out that it Living 1% of the people Planning and controlling the life and work of 99% of the people Simply didn't work anymore. Now. It's not a matter of being wrong or right Just not effective anymore. It doesn't work today and there are quite a good good reason and basically is that complexity is back Very high in the in the markets So not just companies, but the old arena the old society is suffering from a No longer effective structuring of our organization including governments, unfortunately Of course, there are also nice things that are happening because of this big change for the first time people can organize themselves without central control and That's true for a tsunami like it happened over here in 2004. It's true for what happened in Paris with the terrorism attack So people can really do things without any central control self-organizing Before the Red Cross before the governments giving aid sending money amazing and very useful things This is the first time we're able to do this and this is the first time in human history where a problem can be raised in Africa Discussed in the United States and sold in Asia in three weeks This is amazing So this was the reflection we had done and we stopped and say okay We want to start a new company, but we wanted to be ready for this scenario We want it to be very different. We don't need it to be Adaptable sorry durable and predictable. We need it to be adaptive and antifragile Now there is a talk. I think nourish is having it today. I don't know if nourish is in the room About antifragility, so I don't want to spoil it. I will just say that this is a quote from Nicholas Nassim Talab book with the same title antifragile. He's the author of the black swan So you might know him for the black swan. I prefer this book What he says that we usually build robust or resilient things to resist change But we can go much farther and build things that thrive with change So the more change you throw at them the stronger they become So this is what we wanted to build and we embraced what if thinking and it's easy when you lost everything You say, okay, I want to start new and if I start new I want to do it my way So we said what if we can build a company in which values and principles can stand in the place of roles and titles? And when I say this I say in the sense of the agile manifesto Doesn't mean that the other things are not important But we want to overcome the importance of those with values and principles radically and Engagement can stand in the place of command and empowerment in the place of control So how would such a company be it was 2011 we were like crazy people everybody was saying you're crazy This is not doable. It's impossible to build something like this because we were already having idea How that could be but job contracts and whatever Normal thinking about a company were against this way of thinking We came out with something that I will know good into I will not go into too much We called it liquid organization and liquido is the short name for that liquido is an Italian word It means liquid, but it's then also stands for liquid organization You can find it and details will release the white paper on liquid organization info and you find information We will update it over time It's in creative comments, and I want to make clear that we do not sell this the job of my company is another one Okay, so we did this for ourself and then we release it for the world and Doing this we brought something to the world that integrated lean thinking open collaboration And positive psychology at work as body of knowledge. We didn't invent much. We put things together in the simplest Simplest form we could think of we wanted a DNA something that had some basic and simple rules In order to generate complex and healthy behaviors so we have a collaborative working board which is which is a Kanban board that I guess all of you know here So it's a board where the whole governance of the company is visible and accessible by anybody Anybody can propose things in our governance and when I say anybody we embrace this so radically that we don't we let Also customers partners internal external people into the governance of our company We have customers that taking part in the governance of our company as well On that working board there is a contribution accounting system running Which allow people to have a granular and continuous flow of feedback on how much they are contributing to the governance This is not a performance measurement Performance is a is a an agotic metric. It's about how you how well you're doing This is about how well you're helping others a contribution in the governance items and it's continuous So you get it small and continuously like one per week or it depends on the length of the work items when it's finished You get a you get a contribution retrospective evaluation With that value that you get the more value the other recognized you're creating the more decisional power you get in the governance The owners of our company including myself Do not have a say in decisions if they're not creating value recognized by the others in the governance We have a toolbox of collaborative decision-making tools Which includes the position of decision-making of course what has been done for 100 years Still in place so we can still have somebody be the only person that can take that decision But not for the role, but for the competencies of that person We can say guy you have to take this decision But at the side of that we have a complete tools We've spoken like two hours yesterday about this in the workshop of collaborative decision-making Processes okay, this run into the board So one work item in the governance can be a decision and anybody can join that and the team that is taking that decision chooses the Decision process they want to have for that one and it's the smallest one that should do the job Then we execute we get feedback and if it's needed we change the decision If we feel it is a big decision we use a more structured decision-making process. Okay, we have a toolbox last part Reputation tracking this is simply showing what you are doing or what you are not doing in the governance So the reputation that we are tracking in tracking is not a political reputation Actually, it is an operation reputation So it's about how much value the others are giving you how much you are taking part to to to the Work items in the governance and so on this allow the stop establishing what is in Azure is called Stigmergy Which is the ability to act on the science left by the action of others around you So if you for example Enter the governance or company you can have a look and see who is doing what and you know who to ask for and you know Who's into the governance or and we just there maybe talking a lot of not doing anything? Okay We're social animals and reputation for us. It's very important This is important to align the interest of the person with the interest of the group Simply because it shows Okay, this is a way of implementing radical transparency as well We use this system to drop job interviews completely We let people into our company through the governance you want to work with us enter the governance do things Then you will decide if that's the place for you to be or leaving So this is it for liquid. Oh, I just want to tell you that the most important thing about liquid Oh is not liquid. Oh is the fact that since 2011 liquid O has brought us into a wave of Incredible change all around the world. We're just found us to be a drop in this way There are a million things We are connected with people doing such things in Israel in New Zealand in the United States other parts of Europe some are Hacking and tweaking our job. Some others are doing companies on a blockchain. It's what is happening today is amazing in this respect Humanity is finding the need for a new Tool to be organized that tool is what we call organizations The thing is we're disrupting this tool. We need it completely different because the environment's changed So who knows those two guys? I Don't know if Motorbike is followed here in India. Maybe somebody from the United States Nothing. Oh, yes. Thank you very much. So this guy over here on the left is Valentino Rossi, Italian I'm sorry, but he's like the most famous mother's mother bike driver all around the world is that he's won everything This other guy here on the right is Mark Marcus Spanish Now three years ago what happened after that Valentino Rossi was finishing every race with like 500 meters distance from the second so winning alone this guy like 18 years old came up and He started leaving Valentino the same amount of distance when finishing So everybody was like what the hell is going on here and also Valentino is like this is not possible I mean this is not just you know raising with me for the final line is Completely deleting me from from the line What was happening is that Marcus had intuitively found a way of driving the same technology that in that case was the bike That was defying any Knowledge of physics and I'm an aerospace engineer so he was driving at like 170 kilometers per hour in a band completely out of the bike sliding and that was Was thought to be almost impossible at least as a normal behavior. It happened some time Now to cut it short Valentino could have said okay. I am the champion I don't care about how he drives. I will improve my driving and I will get him back The thing actually happened on the other way around Valentino said I need to drive like this guy After he has been for 20 years that un unbeaten champion. He said I need to do what he's doing. Otherwise, I'm out of the game And he also knew that he was different He was taller. He couldn't drive in the same way with the same angle So he adapted what Marcus was doing. He went back to challenging Marcus and finally he won a game Now this is exactly what is happening today with companies. There is a new way to drive The technology these companies there are some big players that are understanding this and are adapting the way they drive their companies Some others aren't and probably they are set to decline as it's already happening but another thing about this story is this was on inside motorcycles on 2013 Like most top riders exploring the other limits of riding skill and technique Marcus himself is not able to fully explain his riding style So the thing is this guy actually didn't know what he was doing Interviewed he said well, I don't know I just I know that I should drive it in a more clean way But when I have to win I forget it and I win in another way This is what is happening with with companies like ours when we started in 2011 We actually didn't know what we were doing. We learned it on the way And this is why now our first white paper you don't find many tips on how to implement a liquid organization because we simply didn't know We were doing it, but we didn't know how it work and how it could work for other companies What we did we identified these three dimensions in the space of Evolution for a company which are Linesse openness and inclusiveness. So the Linesse is about how people collaborate in a new way Inclusiveness is how people craft direction. So new services new strategies together Including including also people from outside the company. So this is broad also the lean enterprise You might know it's not the boundary of your company is the whole that you change to the customer and openness is about How people converse so it's about knowledge flows. It's about how information can enter your company and Travel through the company what we did with liquid or was pushing all these things to the 100% 100% 100% Let's see what happened and it worked for us. It worked now We're starting to understand for which kind of companies this can be useful and how to implement but after four years Marshall McLuhan, which we introduced at the beginning Speaking about how new media changed the previous ones use of this diagram It's called Tetrad. He says like, you know, like the mobile phone with the normal dial round dial phone or or the digital television of Anything that has been this disrupted What happens is that the new technology? Amplify something so what does new governance model like liquid or amplify? Well, they amplify antifragility. They amplify adaptability and What Does it make obsolete? Unfortunately, it makes obsolete management as a company a structural layer because it opens up management to the whole company in a different way How does it flip when he pushed to its limit, what is the limit? Well, we found out that the limit is communication with an org charts You have communication lines and reporting line pretty clear even though then people Usually don't use it exactly as it is. There's a formal and a real system With a liquid organization is the challenge is having the right information and giving the right information to the right people Not to everybody But what does it make relevant again? It makes relevant again people So for the first time in easterly After the industrial age at least It's not people that have to adapt to the organizational rule a structure, but we're designing structure that can adapt Dynamically over time to the way in which people can create value best This is what adaptive organization design is all about so if you imagine an org chart like a picture We are building something that is going to be a movie So there is a structure in any moment But it's liquid in the sense that it changed given the needs of people to create value Okay It has a built-in set of principle that allow people to continuously change How they work and now the formal system at is just displaying the real system is not ruling it So it's like a Copernican revolution people are back in the center This is very important because another thing that Marshall McLuhan said is that we become what we behold We shape our tools and then our tools shape us You can see how the world has changed after we Invented the car our cities are designed around the cars and I'm here because we invented an airplane okay So if we invent companies that put people back in the center Life of people our lives are going to change are going to change in a positive way in Respect to when we had to adapt to an organizational structure because that way that was the way it is It was the way it was It can work because it's all about people again After one and a half century being about structures These are us we this is part of the management of my company and This is what we have found out but still it is. Oh, sorry. I'm talking about something you don't see but I see it Hopefully will come so this is part of what I've learned. We're getting there, but still is not there There are three things that I Think you should take in account in your companies in your work and then eventually Let us to build a widow and to learn what I want to share with you But for these three things we need the slides so we'll have to wait. Okay. This is us Okay So besides the structure the four pillars of liquid or holagra see Zappos adopting medium dropping it and this kind of thing technical things at the level of tools and processes What are three things that you should bring to any company in this century? So the first thing is enabling trust Okay, this is easy to say but not that easy to do in Practical terms this means Transparency and meritocracy It means that if you're hiding something you should have a very nice reason for hiding something Otherwise people will think that you're hiding something because you don't want them to know okay And this is completely normal in most companies We hide something in cocoon to some people just when it's to preserve our customers That's the only reason and people know it and say okay. I'm fine with that I don't want to know that things of that customer if I'm not in that project and the customer doesn't want me to know all the rest is completely transparent and Meritocracy as well now we push this to a culture a culture that we Have adopts the word Ohana which comes from Hawaii Now Ohana who has seen little a stitch from Disney? No, come on. You miss their masterpiece. You really need to watch it Okay, this is a cartoon from Disney Ohana means family and you might see why we haven't used the word family in Italy so we preferred to use the Hawaiian word which is amazingly close to the good sense of family we have in Italy not the one that got famous with some movies So Ohana means family and family means nobody gets left behind or forgotten This is Beyond tools and processes. This is culture. We show this every day and I don't have to give example of this Just trust me on that or come and see how it works at our company This is something you can embrace and once you embrace a principle then the principle will generate rules Okay on dynamic rules each group will generate rules according to that principle and that rules then can die and new ones Can be generated from the same principle So if you want it less fancy and more technical read the book The Power of Pool from John Hagel Actually, what he says that in order to become in this networked way of working in order to become a super node You need to gain trust and when you become a super node Either at the individual Institutional or arena level. Okay, this is the same You can move from the access phase to the attract phase. So now it's easy for us to access any resource So if you don't find it that you're not looking well enough people money, it's quite easy Information not to say to access so what we want is to start attracting and then we have another problem Which is selecting so if you become a super node through trust Then you start attracting and just attracting today. You can realize your full potential, which is the achieve part Okay, otherwise, you're out of the right knowledge plus right out of the right arenas And you want the most people possible in your company to become that kind of super nodes and that's enabled by trust Second thing that you need to build into your companies is the evolution of the concept of leadership We connect leadership with positional power So our leaders are the one at the top of the hierarchy And when you don't have a fixed hierarchy, but you have a dynamic one who are the leaders are the one that are leading Simply the one that have followers Now let's reflect to this a little bit now Peter Drucker used to say the most of what we call management consists of making it difficult for people to get the work done and this is what often happens With a positional leader This is a research from CB that you might know is an a member advisory firm famous in the world. They have 10,000 clients including more than 80 percent of Fortune 500 and more than 70 percent of the doge on such an item So they they have a lot of information and this research said that from 2003 to 2013 More organization are satisfied with their leaders This is the percentage of organization that would replace senior leadership team members if given the opportunity So it's like our directors if we could we would change them and here leadership is Intended as a positional leader. All right So we don't like our leaders. They're all there don't know what to do today. Okay, but on the other side same research Over the past year senior staff 80 percent have been given more responsibility 76 percent some being asked to achieve more and broader objectives 65% must deliver business results faster Well as a I mean it's impossible to be satisfied with people to whom we're asking this They just cannot cope. This is the end of the marriage If the end of a marriage between the firm and their positional leadership We're asking too much. They cannot do it and both sides are not happy It's not just a matter of the employee not happy or the manager is not happy The thing is that these two sides of the table just doesn't work anymore So beyond transactional and transformational leadership that we should still need to Know how to use of course There is a new kind of leadership that you want to build into your companies, which is network leadership So you need to know how to say this is what needs to be done And this is the reward so being transaction transactional helping people growth being transformational and saying this is To be done because in this way you will become better and we will become better with you this stays But you need to also be able to do something more network leadership Means that leaders must must help others build and connect to networks. So this is about the nodes. I was speaking before Leaders must align and direct the network. This is a new responsibility that all leaders have not positional leaders So this is you in your company Wherever you work in your company you need to help Others to connect and help them align and direct the network and energize and enable the network So give them resources purpose feedback once again Peter Drucker used to say that your first and foremost job as a leader is to take charge of your own energy and Then help to orchestrate the energy of those around you and Again, this is from the 80s. Okay. Well, he had a quite long site But this is human. This is why it was known All the rest were mechanistic This is human. We need to help people connect Now third and last thing that we have learned and we've been hearing about it in the keynote You need to disable fear Now what does that mean? Well, in our opinion three things So the first thing is you have to set up an environment where people can jump where they can try experiment Okay, but this is easy and not enough you need to give them shoes So they don't hurt themselves when they jump and you would like also like to Probably have a look of what is down the water before they jump So telling people you can experiment no problem go ahead. It's not enough. You need to provide tools processes Boxes Resources in which they can truly experiment one of the things that we keep finding that nowadays all the companies want to do lean start Up intrapreneurship, but then they actually don't want to do it in practical terms because they don't give the freedom the authority The resources and their words for trying Not just their words for succeeding. That's easy So you need to do this if you want to start disabling fear Then you need to build a culture and commit yourself to continuous Improvement in lean thinking. This is called kaizen. It it's often translated with continuous improvement. It literally means Change for the best Here the concept is that perfection doesn't exist. It is a direction. It is not a goal okay, so If you commit to this, you know that the important thing is that tomorrow you're a little better than yesterday Nobody will judge you by defect to what you should be We will judge you if ever by the increase Increasement you have done in respect to what you were the last month or the last year and this is continuous for all of us third and last thing In order to disable fear you have to create a unique body and this was This is an example of stigma G nature here You have a big fish a predator and this is behaving as a single body and For this you need different organizational model and of course you need a different culture when you find yourself in a body Unique body with the people you work with your fear starts fading away Now this is not just about tools and processes and this is the thing that we have learned and I want to share with you This is about empathy. This is about caring for others. It's about generosity of the work and In a word, this is about love and again for the second time today you hear weird business words So we are seeing a shift in humankind in mankind from ego driven systems to eco driven system We are getting More and more aware that actually we are one and Being one means that what happens to one company is A problem or a benefit to all the others what happened to one person is a matter of the happiness of all the other person in the company This is really deep and this is so true because if we today in the economy if you think About the arena level if we have a problem in economy in Japan or in India There is no country in the world that can just walk away and don't care about it We are strongly connected complexity made us one. So now this new Awareness is allowing us to focus on what is in my opinion the opposite of fear, which is love interconnection This is why we work like this when we collaborate and this is not new here, but it's very new in some other companies This is why we converse like he like this and this is why we co-create like this These are more human things are 3d touchy conversations. We are also a distributed company. We travel to get together Okay, we care about each other Simply we know that if somebody has a problem is unhappy deeply unhappy is a problem that we all have not just inside of the company again we have Clients that entered our governance. We are partners that entered our governance this Idea of the boundaries that rule the distance. We have to care about is that There is no boundary. There are value streams more than one. We should try to be part of now. Let me close this Marshall McLuhan said that our age of anxiety is in grand part the result of trying to do today's job With yesterday's tools and yesterday's concepts So this is why we had to change our company. We devised the liquid organization. We entered this conversation We are here today. There is a change going on in Between two generations. I've been working with the board I've been part of the board of European Organization Design Forum and we're working with people that have designed organization for 40 years We absolutely need their knowledge To learn how to do it today and I've worked with amazing people that were asking us how to implement an agile governance While they have 40 years of experience in designing companies. This is a unique and beautiful moment in history It is needed in order to serve complexity You cannot control complexity, but you can serve it You can make the most out of it and you can enjoy the ride on the on the way We just need to learn so let's make it happen and this is what I've learned. Thank you very much Very nice question. So the question is So you're distributed How does culture flourish? How do you build that hasn't it become a bottleneck? Yes, actually well not a bottleneck, but it has been our main focus from the beginning I believe I will speak about it in the other talk actually on Friday on Tuesday So I believe that a human system has at least four levels tools and processes and it is where we normally focus Then we have competencies needed for that these competencies have a culture layer Culture is what a human system does or doesn't do. It's not what we say So it's what we do and then there are people the foundation of all this So if you work at the tools and process and you say, okay, this is liquid now Let's work like that. It will not change anything What we believe and what we bring to our customers is that if you introduce a good tool might be a Kanban board It might be a retrospective meeting tool if you introduce a good tool Simple one they can adapt without too much effort It's like a Trojan horse that will bring new cultural principles And those principles will start to spread in everything they do and then they're ready for the next step So this is what we have done in cocoon when we founded the company We introduced new tools starting actually with a Kanban board and then building liquid on top of that And we focused before thinking about scaling up our company with which we haven't done yet. It's organically growing We focused on creating the right culture So we made sure that people understood the tools had time to share the thoughts and change the tools and made their own in this way culture grows naturally so Simple but very Disruptive principles like you can see whatever is going on in the governance and you can propose an activity as any other Other people because maybe you need something in your work propose it in the governance and you can take part to governance activities Oh really this builds culture not the tool But the the facts that they change the way they behave on a daily base They start building new competencies. We found out that people entering such a system were lost say I need somebody That tells me what to do because they were used to having company telling what they do and we say here Here you can stay sitting down for the whole year Nobody will tell you a you have to do this but you can ask anybody you can activate and try whatever you want And of course if we see you sitting will come and say is everything fine But if you say yes, we'll go away. It's okay. I'll go working So these new things started building a culture and then of course we Built on that momentum. We have rituals. We come together twice per year for three days We have one week legal. We have monthly ketchup So you need to have you need to create space for conversations. So it's the principle from Harrison Owen Open space technology creator. So once you open space things happen if you don't create that space, they don't I have a question here So you talked about Building a stress coming building based on this test concepts and tools When you're trying to build something new so what leadership qualities are characteristics? You will help to build us because it's not everybody going to jump on to something you say That's a great idea. Let's do it because you don't know what the idea is So what what do you think the leadership process in this case? What do you I think the leadership leadership skills or leadership characteristics? What do you how do you drive this? I mean now even though it's not top-down, but still somebody needs to kind of bring up the concept and Evolve it for a period. So what what what managers do here in this case our leaders do in this case Yeah leaders better than managers. I mean we managers are everybody for us So we all manage we don't need a manager layer. So what should we do in order to enable this? Sorry Okay, so if we talk about leader as I intend a leader So anybody regardless of their height in the company is a simple the three things that I told you So, okay, you need to disable fear. You need to enable trust Those things that we said, okay? But The most important one that I would say is again is love. So and this is the easy answer Then I'll give you the different difficult one So once people have a culture of caring for the others, they will just enable what is good for the other So there is a very big difference in seeing the things from your perspective and trying to see things from the perspective Of the other it's that simple. So once within a team or also among teams People start to really caring what they need to work better than different things start to happen Okay, so this is the basic thing you need to evolve leadership in that direction as a really Enabling people in their growth. Whatever we mean by growth. We all look for that So it might be more more money side more competencies side more reputation side All of us a different idea, but we're looking for growth So if you I understand what you need for your next growth step, I will help you Significantly, otherwise, I will just show that I want to help but nothing changed This is the easy answer then the our answer is that we have seen over and over in time agile operations crashing Towards rigid management And that's the kind of leadership we normally question when we say we are Striving to be agile because they ask us to as well So the leadership wants an agile development for the software But then they want a gun charts with a budget for the last for the next four years and To ensure what is going to come out. So this is the problem. And this is exactly why we have built Iguido So once the governance becomes agile, but you have to change the system Are you you manage things once that become agile? Then you have the same culture at all the levels. Actually, you don't have the levels anymore You have different competencies different focus, which is different But might also be the same person working in two different processes of the company So it's no longer role-based is process basis competencies based How do you do that some companies will never do that? Let's say it as it is some companies have a different culture. We found three Cultural characteristics you should look for in order to understand if that's doable in that company or not So the first one is they need to be value flow driven that company needs to be there to create value So if that's the case, they will listen to new ways of creating value and they eventually if you're good Proposing the smallest thing that will change them not the biggest change of course They will start changing Second thing they need to be complexity aware So they don't need to be if they are a company that tries to control reality and have reality follow their plan There's nothing you can do about it and unless that changes over time because probably they're crashing Which is a thing that is happening a lot a company coming to us a we don't know what to do performance in going down Yeah, I bet it because you're working like it was meant to be in the 60s not today Third third thing they need to be evolution oriented Now there are so they don't want to preserve the status quo. They want to grow now There are very good managers from the old school that have been taught to gaunt plan reality But they have these three characteristics in that case They're suitable for being a leadership that enable all that you're asking for but you have to tell them how to do It and our way is introducing a little to I've been working and then I wrap it up I've been working in a big project with European Commission, and it was traditionally managed as you can imagine so I was I was called for Like a pivot point between technology management and stakeholders, which is a very nice position to say, okay This is how I work. I introduced a Kanban board. There were seven teams doing the same thing without speaking to each other I said whatever is not on this board doesn't exist to me. I don't want to talk about it. So I can update it I will do it for you. Okay. I don't want you to change your way work, but this is how it is for me This is how I can provide my best value. So I introduced this mall to Well after to well, of course, nobody wanted to use it I had to update it after two months that people saw the difference in having that small change I entered the project office a room and there was a Kanban board on his wall I didn't have to say anything. I just looked him and he said well, I like the way you were working I want to introduce this so things started to change, but that's because that person had these three characteristics He just didn't know how to do it Sorry, I think I'm over time. Thank you very much. Thank you