 There we go. Okay. All right. So welcome everyone. My name is Dan I am the director of development program and for the bed for playhouse. Hopefully you guys can all hear me now. I want to thank everybody for coming on this summer like evening to spend a few minutes with us. As part of the let's talk series. For those of you who have joined us or for those of you who haven't joined us before. This is really a cornerstone program of the bed for playhouse we're very, very proud to be able to do this on a monthly basis and provide some information and resources that we think are useful for folks, especially as we are emerging from the period of COVID-19. As people are coming in and we're going to give it one more minute but I want to just ask that you, over the course of the conversation I'm going to introduce our moderator and our special guest in a moment that you please use the q amp a feature, which you can see on the bottom of your screen is a little q amp a button to ask your questions you can post a question at any time. There'll be there'll be some time allocated towards the end of the presentation to take your questions. And we really want people to ask questions as much as possible to engage. That's what this program is really designed to do. Use the q amp a feature, rather than the chat feature just it's a little easier for us to keep track and we want to try to get to as many of those questions as possible. The good news is that the bed for playoffs is reopening. Finally, after 14 months of our doors being shut. We have this weekend, a series of curated classics. We're doing Philadelphia story rear window the graduate and the sting in rotation. You can find more information about that on our website. And then we are reopening with first run films. Next weekend, the following weekend, we have a quiet place to. And we actually also have a great film called dream horse, which will be running. We're also opening this weekend to, which is a really great story. You might find that interesting. A lot of this stuff again is on our website. And so we just asked you check that out and if you are so inclined. Please consider making a donation we are a 501 C three nonprofit. One of our programming is supported by the community we really can't do it without your help and if you're, if you like what you've seen tonight and you would like us to do more like it. Any contribution is welcome to appreciate it and it's also tax deductible. So with that being said, I want to welcome Vanessa Smith who's our moderator for the evening. Come on down Vanessa. And also, Dr Judy Tannenbaum, Judy unmute. There's always there's always one time during a zoom call everybody says there we go. We're awesome. Vanessa it's your show I'll let you introduce Judy and we'll see on the other side. Great. Well, we're so delighted to have Dr Judy Tannenbaum tonight and if I read her entire resume we'd be here for four weeks so I'm going to read just a few things and then we're going to get going. Dr Judy Tannenbaum is a has been in private practice for over 28 years she has been honored by the request of the best Tannenbaum chair in clinical psychiatry, which was funded in perpetuity post residency psychiatrists for further study in any clinical psychiatric area they chose. She is also the clinical assistant professor at while Cornell medicine, clinical assistant professor in psychiatry at New York Presbyterian and a member of the dean circle. Dr Tannenbaum is currently on the board of visitors at Columbia University School of General Studies. She has a very, very impressive resume which is on on the website at bed at Bedford Playhouse so without further ado, welcome Dr Tannenbaum and please go ahead. Thank you. I'm just going to make one small correction only. The chair is an endowed chair. So it's not funded yet. So it will be so it's to help people become better clinicians after residency. So there's a lot of funds for research, biological research but not nearly as many for clinical so it was honored. So thank you for having me. As Vanessa said I've been in practice for it'll be 29 years in September. My friends are in psychotherapy with me with or without medications. And so I thought I would just briefly discuss my views of sort of life and psychotherapy and how I work. And so I think relationships with people are key in all areas and so I sort of ironically have a pie model. And so I look at life like a pie, and the crust of the pie is someone self esteem. And no one has perfect self esteem. So, there are many areas that I think the pieces that sit on top of the crust and the pie are family, like nuclear family, spouse or lover, someone has children, friends and work. And many people come to me. And relationships are probably most complicated because they most mimic parental relationships. But I see people sometimes we have areas of that pie that are having difficulties at work with their kids with their spouse or they don't have friends. So it just depends. But I definitely believe that healthy interpersonal relationships and all those areas meet for a more content life, whatever that is defined by the patient. And so there are three things that I think make those interpersonal pieces of the pie healthier. One is having a generosity spirit, which is doing for others without a checklist has nothing to do with money. It's because you like to be a nice person and do for others and not holding a list that they owe you back. The ability to empathize with that person or people, and also most people in my office lack this as well as out of my office it's like learning Chinese, which is the mindfulness of the impact one has on others. So it's less important in what you say but how you say it. Anger is part of loving people or with work, and it's all about communication and how you say it so that you become sensitive to the impact you have on them. And often people are much more receptive to that. So those three things and the hardest one is the mindfulness of the impact you have on others become in place. People will have healthier interpersonal relationships. If they're having marital difficulties even if their spouse hasn't been in therapy there's only one time in 29 years that I haven't seen this. There's often a positive domino effect so as someone starts to change the people in their life will respond positively and change. And also on my list that you have. I also believe that one has to pick their battles and so when you want to discuss a difficult topic. And this was actually taught to be my own strength and you should know I practice what I preach, which I feel saved my life truthfully. So there's the basket model. So, like for instance with raising children basket one, you must say something, and it changes of course during the age but for me safety and health was always in that basket that was worth having an argument over. So if your daughter is like, you're going to let that one go so if your daughter wants to take a dirty shirt out of the hamper and where to school, you're not going to have a power struggle about that. If they say do you like this shirt because it looks cute but I think it looks cuter cleaner and the harder one actually is the gray area which is basket to so do you make them take a bath, do you make them do their homework. So this basket model can apply to work. So, something occurs either with a colleague boss, anyone, you have to ask yourself, can I let this one go, or is it worth bringing up and if so, I'm now learning how to mindfully confront them. And so, if you use that basket model. I often have seen people where parents make everything basket one so they lose their authority. So if you're going to have a power struggle about what clothes your kids going to wear when it comes time to curfews everything's always attend so they don't really listen so that's why it's worth picking. That's true friends, you know, because people are flawed we're all flawed. Deliciously so. But, um, it's important how you say but it's also important if it's worth saying it's good to let things go if you can. As far as love relationships as I said they most mimic parental relationships are complicated because they don't only involve a friendship, they involve sexual relationship, often shared bunny, if people have children together. I'm in the same book the same chapter, different books, some people feel like they're in different marriages. I feel that I call them the three C's for healthy, healthy relationships but especially in love relationships that caring for each other is actually very important and it's important to let your loved one know that you care for them. And so being a loving caring person is important and again doesn't mean all the time, but that's important. So couples that don't communicate are in trouble. And so again mindful communication is better. When I see couples that never have an argument, they may not care enough about each other to have an argument. And so those couples I might say that they're in the marital ICU. I'm also learning to compromise and again not with a checklist but it's very important to give in sometimes and let that other person who you're with know that you're happy to compromise you would have preferred a but you're happy to do be so you can see where these kind of things are all related. This, this list looks kind of simple, but it's much harder to put into practice so when people come to see me I'm incredibly I call myself lovingly confrontational so I can be incredibly empathic, very available. But if somebody just wants to blame everybody then I'm not the right doctor for them because you can only change your part. And when you change your part again there's often a domino effect. As far as physical and emotional intimacy. I became more conservative, having kind of one of my first patients in practice, who's very comfortable with herself physically and sexually and she could give up her body. But half of her at least was out of the room so she wasn't emotionally connected which left her being often rejected because people felt cold. She was not close to her. And so it's because of her and most people don't make it in this area in my office I would say I developed a six date rule where nothing below the waist for six dates. So, you can tell me are incredibly attracted, but you want to get to know them first, because more people have trouble getting close emotionally and making themselves vulnerable and opening themselves up and so what happened initially with this particular person is. She kind of got it. And it was before computers so she would watch TV so I had her put her TV away because if you want to meet somebody in your alone TVs are like having people there. So she read books, and she stopped sleeping with people too early and often by the fourth date really she didn't really like them and so her self esteem got a little better because in my opinion and again I sound old fashioned so if you want to fling have a fling but if you want a relationship. It's actually nice to know what somebody else likes to do for fun. And so being with somebody and talking and having three conversations and fun with them is actually intimate. As people age or they're on medication intimacy physical intimacy changes between couples. And so it's something, ideally, you do with that person only. And so that's what makes it so special in a way but also something that you would want to protect. As people age of famous psychiatrist, a Harvard professor who I love taking his lectures said, you know, as people are aging intimacy changes so you might hold hands more you might cuddle more you might kiss more, but everybody's libido goes down. Unfortunately, the world is still, in my opinion, a little sexist so they discovered Viagra they haven't really worked on female sexuality as much, but one can be physically intimate, even if it's not like when you were 20. I'm very big on condoms and I have a lot of patients women patients in my office who think if they're nice, they're safe, including doctors, which I kind of try to educate them about. And the last thing and I think this is key to all relationships is being truthful. And so, truthfulness is the foundation of all relationships because if you can't trust what somebody is saying. When do you question if they're lying and it's a good lesson to teach when kids are small because most kids live. There's a great book for those of you who have teenagers. I remember the author unfortunately it's a great title it's like, get out of my life but first can you take Cheryl and needed them all. And it's written by a psychologist and it's about how teenagers can be difficult and they can lie but I think if people know that you don't lie and that you are truthful. I don't question that because once people start couching things by omission or commission, it is very hard to know when they're when you're being lied to or not. And that can start young and gratuitous truthfulness is not what I mean. So, if you don't like someone's dress. By no means suggesting to volunteer I don't like your dress. However, asked, do you like the stress on me on mindful way to say it's okay it's not one of my favorites so I don't believe in somebody asks, you know, lying to make them feel good. And that's kind of how I work psychotherapeutically in my office. So, connecting the dots from people's childhoods. Sometimes I'll use more analytic phrases of transference if somebody's projecting their father onto me, but for the most part it's interactive. It does look at people's past present what's going on in their life. I'm a jaddy so I interrupt everybody trying to work on that in my personal and professional life. And so that's how I view life and sort of like the pie of relationships, which as those improve. Most people are more content and get with, get what they want some more of the time and have less conflict. And that's kind of my pie of life. So, I'm happy to answer questions. Speak about any other parts of relationships, but that's how I work at my office, including how people relate to me. Because, you know, you're talking about navigation. And that was that was a wonderful way to bring all these subjects up. I'd like to delve a little bit into how, like the partners we choose, kind of mimic what we've experienced as children are family relationships and all of that would you like to comment on that. So, it depends how psychologically aware people are so. Yes, we are attracted to aspects of what we grew up with. Sometimes when people haven't worked through nobody comes out to quote my own therapist of their childhood unscathed, and it's hard to be a person. But if you're not introspective sometimes people unconsciously will choose someone very similar to a more difficult parent in the hope that again unconsciously that if they can get the difficult parent, a spouse to love them properly, it validates them, because when they're little when you're little and you have a difficult parent. It's a great self help book on daughters and narcissistic mothers, for instance. Kids really until age 13 or 14 don't have the ability to say, Well, I'm lovable with my mom with struggled or my dad struggled. And so they feel and looked, and so they unconsciously might pick somebody to rework their childhood to get someone who isn't nice enough, etc. They can transform them. It validates them and then they're able to say, Oh, it was my mom that wasn't loving. So, many people do repeat that. You know, healing from your childhood. So, if people come to me before they meet that person they're going to end up with. I'm there to point out red flags. I call them to like, that sounds familiar. But even in a marriage that might have difficulties one can still work through that with a couple or just with the person. I have another question that's really about do we all kind of have one story we're all trying one kind of question or thing we're trying to solve in our lives from childhood do we have one trauma do we have one thing we're going towards. Can you speak to that. That was one of the questions from the audience. Yeah, I can try. I don't think there is a universal one thing. I think, interestingly, as an aside, because I do treat people who have mood disorders like depression and anxiety as well. So, what's interesting is there are genetic studies where you in here, one set of genes from your father one from your mother. And you can be a low risk for depression from both, you can be a hybrid, one parent is a high risk for depression and low or you can be high high. And under quote normal childhood trauma on what would be the x axis. Nobody shows symptoms in the middle range of trauma, the hybrid, the age, a high and low and high high start to show symptoms of depression and severe childhood trauma everybody But I think the goal. Not everyone has the same goals, not everyone has the same injuries. There are red flags in my office. When people say their moms are their best friends. In other words, there's a certain psychological emancipation that has to take place from when you're a baby to then you separate a little seat from the school and those lines are still close to your family but they're separated enough so you can go to camp or college. And then they become separated enough so that you can still be close you're not a mesh. So you're not like two overlapping circles, so that you have room to start that cycle over. And so I've treated 40 year old women who respond to their mothers when asked like well how'd you wear your hair on the date as if she was working. And so it's also a developmental path, but I think each individual has their own set of what we've been content. Well that's interesting because in a time of coven. How is separation and the whole idea behind separation and however we become individuated individuals. How has that been shaped. It's actually been interesting. There's 25% increase really of depression or anxiety due to coven. Just the situation, then if you had had cova there's also huge incidence of depression anxiety secondary. It's either done better or worse. I think everyone's kind of getting cove crazy. There are people that, no matter what you tell them or you educate them on the risks, they don't believe it. You could introduce them to Fauci and believe in either. So there's a certain level of anxiety. I know we call our home we work. So my husband's and his then office being a lawyer and I'm here being a psychiatrist and telepsychiatry. I think, again, it's become individual I think you can be living with five people and still feel isolated. I think people kind of hungered in. So I used to in my old life, which was 180 degrees from this life. I was never home I worked all the time and I meet my friends during the week for dinner and now, even though I've been going outside to restaurants last summer, my desire to socialize was down. I think that everything felt just kind of burdensome. Some couples have actually spent more time together where they didn't so they've grown closer together. Others feel like you're driving me crazy and I have no privacy so again it's using those tools that I first talked about to talk. Couples that don't talk I once treated a couple that had so much trouble that I had to see them individually and then kind of was the go between for a while. And I felt like buying two of those little plants that you see. So, if you take a plant and you use that as a symbol for marriage. If you put it in the sun and you water it and you prune it and you take care of it it tends to flourish. And that would be the care and compromise communication. If you take the other one and you put it in the dark closet and you never water it, you never talk to it, you never, you know, never see sunlight it actually dies and marriages that aren't tended to don't do well. And so, people may choose to stay together, but there's almost not a relationship. So, couples that actually don't ever argue mindfully are, in my opinion, drop. But it has to be mindful. So, you can never take your words back, which is a big lesson I try to tell people that you cannot. Well heavy what what what how does that work can you talk to us about that like what how's that work in therapy for you. What's interesting so most of the time that there are people relay what they say, or, and I may say, you could see where that was hurtful, or when people are angry sometimes they say me things like a mile. On occasion in my office, I will be that that person's object and they will speak to me that way. So I'm like why do you need to speak to me that matter. So, in other words, you might, if it's coming directed at me which Freud would have called transference. And I still will use their behavior as a reflection to hold up a mirror. So, and teach them through that the way in which you just said that is a hurtful way. And so, I'm going to talk about relationships in my office, either at work or difficulties, or with their friends or then if you outgrow your friends, what do you do about it. I think relationships, I think interpersonal relationships is what makes life rich, and we really, unless somebody doesn't have a need for relationships. I think that we have no close people in their life. Most people have people in their life. I do encourage especially women to have friends. I don't think one person male or female can make someone be everyone. And so, it's important to have other people in your life. It happens for people who have children. And sometimes there's what's called splitting and so often the moms would get thrown under the bus, but kids are smart and they learn how to conquer and divide. And so, it's going to be a united front and discuss those things privately. I also don't believe in burdening children with adult problems. And so, if you happen to have a fight, they hear you, they see you make up, but I don't, I don't think it's anybody's business, what that was about. So not speaking negatively. Oh, I'm sorry. No, that's a really great point that is so important because a lot of our audience members have kids. And it's how to have that divorce or that relationship happen. And then you also have parenting parenting is different. Correct. All of these things I call deliciously difficult. And so, if parent a, let's say, says your ground, it's not okay for parent B to undo that without speaking to the parent and together you say we've decided, but it happens all the time. And the other thing is, if couples do decide to divorce. I was half of the all myself a string so I'm going to refer to myself that half the strengths in the world are not for divorce, they believe you stay together for the kids no matter what. Then there's my half which is done right. And then have the house I don't think is necessarily so healthy. And there are four things where one was to get divorced if these are in place kids do well, which is, and you don't, this is the one most people fail at. You don't speak badly about the parent, the divorce parent to the children. So say economically between the two houses there, it's pretty much equal. So, it's not like a huge difference. And both parents ultimately, and the children can see this that they seem more content. And also there's not a loss of a parent so one doesn't pick up and move to Europe. So there are things that are in place kids actually do well. I have, I have some patients who are wonderful co parents, they're good friends, and they were terrible. And their kids turned out great. That's a, that's a great, great thing to talk about tonight. That's great. That's very helpful. I have a question about that's come in from. How do you establish healthy boundaries so this has to do with parenting and relationship sex, everything, due to COVID being together all the time with your partners. How does that really work. So I'm big on boundaries. I don't think people should do. Maybe is reading somebody's texts spouse kids. There's a reason for that so if it's spouses, leaving each other stuff, something's going on that's making them feel insecure. And I do think this world of social media I think it's important to teach your children that what they put on social media is a billboard to the world. And thankfully I have a 29 and a half year old who we didn't really have to deal with a lot of this just a little bit it was more like blackberry stuff. But you know, Snapchat people take pictures, teaching your kids not to put new pictures of themselves online. I think being respectful of your children. Kids are little and you say how was school you mostly get fine. The best way to learn from them is when you're tucking them in at night. Sometimes when they want to talk. I think I very much do not believe in burdening children with adult problems. So, between if you're having marital problems work problems. It's okay to be kind of grumpy in a bad mood, but it's really not their business and it's burden seem to be a parentified child. I think you have to let your kid, like teenagers, especially your kids know that if you have a reason to snoop or puts by where, or the family cloud I know people where they can see every key stroke. You know, you could say if I have a reason to not trust you which is why truthfulness is so important. You should know I have the ability to do this and I will let you know that we do this. And so, you know the kids that put their phone at their friends house and then they go out to a party. I'm also big, a big believer in consequences for stuff like that. So no. What do you think about consequences how do you, how do you tell people in your practice. Go ahead, sorry. Sorry, interrupt you. I'm a big believer in consequences. So, first of all, every decision we all make their consequences positive or maybe. And so, if I decided to post something to my Twitter account, though, could be consequences to that. And then how you speak to somebody, what you decide to eat, how the exercise not compromises so if you think about it every decision has consequences. This mostly comes up, I think when parents are kind of too involved with kids homework in high school. The work ethic isn't really solidified by 673 they may need some extra help. I've had parents who sit in the room and like read the biology book before the kids. So the messages and that's hard enough to do this on your own. And that would be a boundary, for instance, and the consequence of the choice for instance like with school is if you work a little harder. You might do better and have more options later. And I'm not a school snob so I don't care what people go. But if you don't do your homework. There are consequences because you're going to get in trouble in the school and you will have less options. I do not believe in. Except on a rare, like if you want if your kid needs a mental health day and they got that, like once a mile. But if somebody's always late, I don't believe in calling the school and saying they're late because of something. Let them get in trouble with school. And there are consequences to all of our decisions. Do you think that do you think the pressures of this last year I mean I'd like to talk about like what's happened but moving forward. What's going to happen, moving out of this time of coven this intense time when people are going to be back in school so for example, is it going to be better for parents who have been struggling with their marriage. Kids at home everybody's looking at one another and all this stuff and you're seeing behaviors is what's what are you looking forward to what are you anticipating. I don't know if there's one answer for that. So, ironically, when I, the last time I was full time on my office was March. And I've been there. I love my office by been there twice for five. I love reopening my office since more. Most of my patients I won't see anyone in person who's not vaccinated because I don't have psychotherapy mass. But ironically there's a lot of papers how people hated being locked up and now they're afraid to go back. But I think it just depends on the situation so there's not a general situation. I think that there's probably depends where people live but there's trepidation as to is this safe, how careful to be, and even throughout this whole time there was a range. My own theory as a doctor and sort of representative of public health is, I didn't just worry about myself. But also I feel like I'm a representative to be a good role model. I've seen social media that one thing that's done is it's when Instagram first came out, which is probably about 15 years ago I guess. And I remember thinking who cares if I'm at Starbucks taking a picture of myself. And so what's happened is people are not as much into the community and protecting the community and which they live. So last week I think Dr Fauci went to Cornell medical school, but he was on television you'd like, you want to get vaccinated for yourself for your loved ones but also your community. And a lot of people don't care about it. They feel like well I'm okay doesn't matter I'm exposing somebody and that's actually long term coming. I think that again in my experience empirically I would say most, most couples have weathered this storm, so to speak, in some ways better. Because if you think about it how lives are so busy, often people don't spend enough time to do. But I also think kids, it's affected everyone at different ages. So two and three year olds have lost a year of their socialization. So a couple people had pods of safe people. But for the most part, these kids are in mass. I know somebody who's three year old she hasn't seen three year old so it's like delayed. And then I'm in my early 60s it's like wait I'm spending my 60s locked up in my house, or you can't travel. Older people. So, and then learning online is very, very difficult for most people, anyone who has a learning issue, they fall behind. So I know college kids who taken gap year, because they're like I can't learn this way. It's been quite difficult for most people between losing people, being worried about being sick, being locked up. Some people were acting out and not behaving well. And so, you know, I can't say there's just one answer, but I would say that every decade has been effective. People missed proms and weddings, the loss and 600,000 people who've been killed, basically my been. This was unnecessary. I knew this in January, weren't all my patients get products. And so it's sad and there's, this is going to be with us, this is not going to be eradicated. And so it'll probably be like flu. And so I think right now like people are out and about but I think there's a lot of people who are frightened and caution. Well, we're in this intermediate time too. I talked with a friend of mine I've known for 50 years and she doesn't see anybody and she has a major illness and she's not doing anything so it's really interesting. Sorry, go ahead. Is this sick or immunocompromised? Yes. Their CDC rules are very different. Yes. They're not sure, for instance, some of the immunotherapies for instance like Crohn's. One of them, they're not sure they build antibodies to the vaccine. So they're actually drawing. And the one thing because these vaccines are new technology and they weren't studied is on. We don't know if you got what's called T cell immunity, which gives you life long. So I had the measles. And if I were exposed to the measles, my T cells tell my antibodies turn on this is a bad. And because this vaccine we needed it fast, they don't know this first T cell immunity or not. And also the mutation so far the vaccine seem to cover most of them. But no one knows. And then the long term side effects of these vaccines have not been studied. And so I know a few people who are afraid to get the vaccine because they don't know that it won't harm. And people without shame, that it's, that is true, but we do know how harmful. A question was just emailed in the about the whole idea of awareness of health. For example, we are hyper aware of our mental health, our physical health, our proximity to other people at public, you know, just everything. How has that changed or what do you see, what would you like to comment about about that. I wish I could agree with you that people are hyper aware of mental health. I think it's getting better. I think they're still stick must. In New York. I don't think it's a federal law insurance companies might be federal so I attempt to look it up. Psychiatrists were supposed to be on par with cardiologists. There are people out there trying to make awareness of this and because of the incidence of anxiety and depression around having to be quarantined, etc. But I'm not sure I wish people are more aware of the mental health unless ashamed to get help if they need it. There's so much exciting depression now that there are ads and hotlines and I volunteered to be on the state for people who can't afford treatment. People are aware of the physical health. I think many people live in denial. The obesity in this country is among this. So, I think what's happened is, as far as people between some terrified actually, of getting it, understandably, and you know it's not an equitable distribution. So, and the access to the health care. This is not a fun disease to have. It's not just your lungs, which is due to an overreaction of your immune system called a cytokine storm. But it can cause renal failure, diabetes, strokes, heart attacks, limb loss, any vascular disease. Yeah. It's not a happy virus now. Well, not related to COVID but what are what are you some of you have the most, what's the most interesting question you've ever been asked in therapy. Someone's come in. What's the most, I mean it could be anything. So I tend to be somebody who shares about myself if it's relevant. So I'm not, you can tell I'm not quiet. What is a good question. I would say one of the most hostile things that was ever told me early in my practice was by a patient who asked me how like a more traditional psychiatrist who said you have children and you don't answer. Or they may say what do you think, which can tell you something about them I would say yes I have one. I only wish my daughter at the time who is probably two or three dead. And how I handled that then versus how I handle that now is very different issues that I would imagine you might find that hostile and have to talk to your own therapist about. It was very hostile and kind of took my breath away. Somebody if somebody said that to me now, I would say that's probably the most hostile thing you could wish for me and I'm not sure I can get past it to be able to help you so I don't think it means. I don't know that I've been asked anything that has stumped me, I think. Sometimes I joke that get paid to get yelled at. And so it helps that I grew up in the house where it was okay to be angry, so I'm not afraid of it. But on occasion, as my therapist used to teach me when your therapy evolves over time and spend a long time there, what you talk about changes. I was really being yelled at by a high functioning person and he said when you're in a canoe with somebody and they're trying to tip you over and hold on for you. And so, also, I would never send or go to anyone have any field in therapy social work psychologists, psychologists who hadn't been in therapy themselves. And if my own buttons are getting pushed and I'm not aware of them, then I would be acting out in that session. Yeah. And it's interesting because it's all about questions this is what by the way, you're such a perfect, perfect guest for let's talk because it's all about asking questions. It's all about finding out so it's great. That's great. Thank you. What, what, if you were to go if you were to go in today you'd never been in therapy what would be the first thing that you would expect, or what would you what would be the first thing you would expect a couple coming to you. If someone had cheated. This comes from a this comes from someone you know very well if someone's cheated. What do you do with that. So, again, 20 some years ago how I handled that now it's different. So often if a couple comes to me I see a couple. And then I may see them individually. I don't disclose that. I think 25 years ago, I had that person disclose that. So, this sounds, this kind of sounds stereotypical men, when they cheat, often just one another sexual experience where women, if they're cheating it's often because they're unhappy and have a relation. I happen to think those relationships can recover but never the same. So it's sort of like if you took if you're building house and foundation, you cracked it and cement was cracking might be able to seal it over but eventually the crack. So the trust is broken so it's hard. It is hard to recover you can, but I'm not sure that that trust is every day ever there, or people who are married from an affair, where they each had one or wind it. So this is that hint like this person going to do that again or am I going to do that. And so, I think if you get to the point where, and most people there are many people in the world, we're going to be attracted to people. If you get to the point where you're close to that, better to deal with it before you get yourself in a mess. That's interesting, very interesting. What do you think, why, why do people get married. That's kind of the interesting question, because what comes up in my office is more younger people want to get married, often if they want children, and it falsely in some ways gives them a sense of security as the divorce rate I think after getting married in 90 or something is 60%. It's huge. So people don't often work on their marriages, like children are deliciously difficult. And there are many times we feel like, what am I doing this marriage which I think is normal. What comes to be a problem is in the second marriage or somebody my age must get married. I do need to get married, because then it becomes partly a business deal if there's any finances involved in peanuts and do you take care of each other and what's going to happen when you're gone, kids and all that stuff. I've come across a lot of therapists I know who are people I know who spend three or four nights with their monogamous significant other, but they keep their separate houses, and they don't want to. They like having that space, which reminds me of something is it's very important that couples also aren't in mesh. So that you have over what do you mean by that, what do you mean by the mesh sort of like where the person has no space no boundaries or each other human respirator. And it sets a person up to one of them to build a jet. So if somebody wants to read the New York Times, they can feel like we're not paying attention. So it's very important to have overlapping interests so that you have fun together, whatever that is, but also to have your own interests or some of your own friends, and go to lunch with people so that you have a more full life so that you're not just relying on one person to fill all your needs. But it is a big conflict in later in life when couples in their fifties, sixties doing some once in a minute some don't, you know why not. Well, and you've, you've referred to this that not one person can't give you everything but do you find that I mean this is maybe not the right way of asking it but do men, or women find more friendships outlets different ways of being with people that helps that can potentially help a marriage or help a family or would you like to discuss that. I mean, I would say in my experience, both in my office and out of my office, I think, typically, and again this is typically women tend to be more social. Often, men find other outlets and harness social. I always tell people that there's only one planner in the family which is fine, like, some people feel like, well, he never makes the dinner visitation. It's like, is he up. Do you have fun when you go out and say yes, so it's like what you missed doesn't make if you're the one making or anything else that you want to do. I, this is going to, I hope I don't offend anybody. I think women multitask better. So, when I try to impart as far as wisdom is that it is not worth fighting over that you do the female does AD or 85% of lots of stuff, even if you work out of the house in the house, being appreciator. Dr. Dr. Stahl who's the guru of psychopharmacology used to say if you if you want to know who the man father to speak to him if you want to know what's going on in the house and so I tend to find that even if you work outside the house we're just better organizers of multitasking. And how that's, that's great and also how do blended families work with all this, how do blended families make it all happen. So, again, there's not a universal answer in an, in an ideal world. People would be co parents and not threatened by the X. So a lot of families, actually my brother did this key and my sister longer his ex wife, I'm close to. And they're significant others and my niece would be there. They were friends. It's very difficult on the kids it and they feel pulled. And so, but again there's not like a universal answer for how that works. I have a bunch of divorced friends and I would always just with my son we have one son I would just go wherever the kid was, we go to the we go to the mother or the father or the whatever and we I would just kind of follow the kid and I felt that that was kind of a better way of doing it for everybody. You're asking like, who do you stay friends with one of your friends gets to work. But when your son gets older, he probably he may not have wanted you to join one. He'll shoot right and he'll choose whatever I but I have one more. Another question that just came in. That is about what happens if you and your partner are living completely separate lives, but you're okay your roommates. What do you do. Do you stay, do you should just say, I mean, how many people have you seen get divorced actually, or how many people have you helped navigate from all this. There's a big review that now that that people review doctors so we use that as a weapon, where somebody said on the first couple session I said they should get the worst just falls. And I've told two people in 28 years that I thought it was time. One couple was literally beating themselves up as I was like if you can't do this for yourself just for your children. And the other really was five years a couple therapy and they just we kind of all just agree. And many people live like that, like roommates. So the question is, are you roommates because there's no sexual activity, or you just kind of live together but you don't do anything together. Often people stay together in those situations because it's just here sometimes financially, but often they're both lonely. It's like a lonely situation. So, if you're friends and living like that but if you're just like living with your roommate and use my yogurt. It's depriving. Most of those people aren't content. Why they stay together to be alive. Some people don't believe in the force, but those are people that often, if they want to manage better can. So, you know, divorce is a big decision. You know, getting married is a big decision. I think people need to take it more seriously not just in there. Let's get the most. Do you find that people who get married I mean it's a strange question but I thought about it. Do you feel that people when they get married also think that potentially this marriage might not work. But they're going to do the best they can, the best they possibly can but it takes a while to know that. Yeah, I hope when people get married they feel that they're marrying an imperfect person but they've accepted their boss, first of all, but mostly is. Let's say on a scale of one to 10, you'd want a marriage to be between the seven or eight 10s rarely occur. If you go down to a four doesn't stay there very long or two. And I think depending there are some religions that really found upon divorce, and I think that causes own difficulties. I think it's important to go and going. I mean intellectually we all know you can get divorced but I think the commitment of trying to make it work unless it was just from the beginning the wrong reason often when people get married after a loss of a parent. They often aren't clear headed. And so those marriages tend to be more difficult in my experience. But I do believe that if there was enough love and stuff, and you might come see me and learn some tools to build up your toolbox that giving up too early can be the flip side of staying too long. Yeah, what are some of those tools in the toolbox without giving away all your secrets. Those are the communication caring compromise picking your battles, having friends, having a filled life with your spouse without your spouse enjoying the fact that if your spouse wants to go skiing for the day it's not anti you but it makes them happy even if you don't ski, but also spending, spending time together is important and having those shared instances. So, in my own life for instance about to celebrate my 35th wedding anniversary and of course there were times it was like, hey what was I thinking, but we travel world together and have fun with both work, we're both kind of work all months. I think finding I always ask people this which is interesting so my answer for myself when I was 22 the same as it is 62. So I always ask people like, if you had to create a person had five attributes that you could not live without what are they. And I don't mean like tall bargain and attractive is important to some people. And so, it's very interesting what people put on that list. So for me at 22 surprisingly psychological awareness was number one and still is, because I feel like if you're married to somebody that then you have a much better way of communicating calm. The other four. The other four. Sometimes I just order would be different. I'm intelligent, ambitious. So psychologically aware, intelligent, ambitious, funny, and kind. Those are great. Those are great. So what do you and what are some of the other combos that you've heard. People do attractiveness people sometimes add financially stable. Being a team member of venture some trying to think a lot of people put sense of humor on there. It's fun to be married to somebody to laugh. Yeah. And it's interesting because somebody said this the other day I mean you're you, you have this pocket of your own issues or your own, your own way and you're trying to kind of like fill that up with the good stuff from somebody else. And you're just trying to figure out that big, that big equation and how that works but it's a, it's a big kind of loose equation. And marriages again are complicated because they mimic parental marriages also how your parents were communicating. And, you know, I would say the biggest cause of divorce strictly that I've seen in my offices couples that don't communicate, or they don't communicate monthly. And if there's a take home message from this is you really cannot take your words back. I really impart that people think before they speak. I get almost easier to get hit in the face to believe in some of the stuff that I hear how people speak. Yeah, yeah. That's such a great point. We have another question that came in on my, my text, we're told our, we told our kids, this is from somebody we told our kids that we are separating they're begging us to stay together, but we're so unhappy. What should we do. Do you know how old the kids are. 20s. Well, teens, late teens 20s. Let's. Yeah, so I would, first of all, I believe that the couple needs to tell the kids at the same time. So it's not good to hear from one and then the other. So I would be reassuring that nothing that they're not divorcing the children or young adult children that the relationship with them will stay the same that without getting into details and again I do not believe in burdening why you're getting divorced as far as what happened, but that the two of you are not happy together as married people. You think that you will co parent and be friendly this isn't going to be a war, but that nothing will change with them. And they won't be put in the middle so that I would not encourage an unhappy couple to stay together for adult children. Yeah, that's a great answer. And the other thing is what happens if a child, and then I'll let you I want you to kind of summarize other things that you want to talk about. But my child, someone's child is very aware and supportive of this person leaving one person leaving that they told. So what, what do they do, what does the mother or the father do. And they're afraid that they'll. Pardon me there. In other words, one child has talked with one parent. And they say, Oh yeah, you should leave it's terrible here I mean I can't imagine why would you want to stay. What do you do how do you repair that in the family, how do you, and how do you gracefully worse. Now, so that can happen in two ways. So, kids can pick up on tension. And if they're closer to one parent in another and they're 15 and I like happy state treats you there. So marriages are complicated. And that's for me to figure out if the parent told the child, you know I think I'm going to get divorced, but the other parents not involved there's already a split. And one of those four things I said isn't doesn't do well because many kids myself I come from a divorce house, my parents were 15 but the kind of always knew. And truthfully, I was a much more content less anxious 15 year old once that happened, they didn't fight a lot there was just tension. And so, but I don't. The biggest mistake in staying married or not staying married is when the family is split in half. And you have one child I have one child so that can happen when we get thrown on the bus. But even in families that have let's say two kids, parents have favorites, even if they tell you they don't, they do. And we're families are divided. So I have a patient I'm like, how's your husband the younger one, you know her son. And so they're often divided so started with me to the husband and the daughter were close and the son and she. So now, after therapy, it's way better situation. That's great. What do you do you think that's one of the reasons you became a therapist yourself. My parents got divorced. Yeah, no, but I think that I think people, especially psychiatry but applying any field of medicine. In some ways, we rescued ourselves. But I entered therapy before he became a psychiatrist, but when I was in eighth grade my friends and I would all analyze our house. So, people don't come out and skate there were good parts about my childhood and not good parts. And so I've been, I was in therapy for decades, which saved me so I would say the first chunk is healing from news. And so often people come in and they think it's one parent and you start to get to the other one, and how things were, and then becomes life with you marry or do you want to get married. You know, what do you want your life to be today I met somebody who's a few better career, you know so. And then it becomes like aging and raising kids and, in my case, running difficult cases by my own therapist who's a psychologist and help me. So it's sort of like a whole spectrum of life. So, I'm 62 I started therapy when I was 23 or about 30 years minus a few, but the same person. And when I look back on my 22 year old sale. I feel sorry for her. So you get enough distance. Yeah, so that you can see like strengths but also like the anxiety or. And I have to ask, did you learn a lot, by the way that your therapist was when you were the. The therapy people get with me therapy, which is why I call it lovingly confrontational so if you don't want to look at your own self and what you're contributing to your own unhappiness and difficulties. I am completely not the right person. I'm incredibly loving and responsive and pathetic, but you can't just blame everybody. So even if you people have had a horrible childhood. I mean, just horrendous and the resilience of people is amazing. But at some point, even if it affected you and your closed off in a ball, at some point you slowly can open that. You can feel safe with other people. So it's, you know, if you just want to be a victim, and don't want to change and see that you can be empowered by change, even though it can be slow and scary. Sometimes people feel like there's a lot of power and being a victim. I would say there's no power. But it's all about timing and having people that want to that recognize that they can change themselves, which will better their life. Yeah, that's saying a lot. Would you like to say anything else. I mean you've said so much would you like to add anything we've missed. I mean, I think that if anyone goes to therapy. There are great therapists out there. So short therapist psychologist psychiatrist lot of psychiatrists do only medicine I actually won't do that, because I like therapy. I think you also have to have. I know somebody who I choose taught me all about shared reality so there has to be some sort of connection. And feel if there's like a mismatch, you can kind of not just with the issues because there's certain issues I wouldn't treat. That's not my area of expertise. But it's, you kind of click. I feel fortunate, and I also think to be a good psychiatrist or psychologist or social worker you actually have to like people. And not be afraid to have some difficult conversations or have people mad at you. You know, and so I happen to be so fortunate I love what I do. I think when people choosing your career there's sort of three bars. And so, like, passion for what you do. You want to work and how important is it to make a lot of money. And so when I was becoming a psychiatrist of psychiatry was the second lowest paid medicine to pediatrics. But I loved what I did, and I don't mind working hard so people in my age group we just did a residence month. I mean, it's the eight hours a week forever. But it's, um, Yeah, I mean, if you if you're with somebody and you feel like they don't like people or like what they're doing. People can often tell that it's a good match. Yeah, well we're, well we're, it's not a good match to want people to get the help they can. We are very happy you do what you do. We can't thank you for such a generous generous fantastic talk really I'm so impressed and I know our audiences as well. Thank you, thank you, thank you. We did record tonight so everyone who tuned in a registered will get a link so if there's any part of this that you want to revisit or share with anybody that you think might be finding it useful, you'll be able to do that as well. So, thank you very much thank you Vanessa. Thank you Dr Judy. Thank you for having and thank you Dan and come to the Bedford playhouse soon right right right this weekend yeah. See you there. Thank you. Everybody. Have a great night. Thank you so much. Bye bye.