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It hurts for me to go over this but I think it's time that the public knows exactly what abuse is and the effects that it can have on you. I don't think you're going to like hearing this but I'm going to tell you because I want people to know I haven't got no shame and guilt no more. What was your biggest tongue you ever done out of safe? Oh yeah, the out near opposite the Albert Hall. Was that a moeun qued? Yeah, the whole crowd was watching and I've put one and then it was bending the tool. It wasn't the best one so while I had him like that I put that one back in my pocket and pulled out the other one. A bigger one James sadly because I was hurt. So that's the realities of prison. This is what happens day to day. Today's guest we've got Yami Bee. How are you brother? Big up, big man James. Good to see you. And you too boy. What do you want me to call you today? Yami, Samuel. Which one do you want? Both. Both? We can do that. So it's two different kinds of characters. Samson and Yami. So a man who's from London spent nearly 50 years in prison. Institutions. A lot of big hunters, people has been on here as well. You're out now, the longest you've ever been out. Doing well, I'm proud of you. It's great to see you. We spoke a few times now. Getting a laugh. First of all, how are you? I'm in a real good place and I have been month by month. I just seem to be getting better and better spiritually, mentally. I'm like a kid really relearning stuff. I'm good at all the big things but the little things. I'm falling short on a little bit that I have to do for a longer period of time before I get full adjustment but I'm not rushing. And I'm just looking forward. That's the only thing you can do is look forward to the leaf. I always go back to the start of my guess brother. Where you grew up and how it all began? Bow Road. I think it was the last time the bow bells rang. It didn't stay long and moved to West London about one or two. My earliest memory was being in foster care because my dad apparently stabbed my mum and ended up in Brixton prison. So I was in foster care I think for nine months or something and then he came back out and we moved to West London, which would have been Labyrinth Grove. So you've been in this system for a very young age? Well yeah, my memories of that. Apparently my oldest sister used to tell me that I used to get unnecessary smacks from the foster one. But I was thinking how could she remember that. But anyway, from that Labyrinth Grove I was in the heart of it. I got my schooling down there. It wasn't really a happy home to be honest. I can't really look back on too many fond memories. We used to go on holidays to Butlins, Barry Island, which is in Wales. My mum was from Newport Gwent. My father was Indian and I quickly identified in where I was living that from an early age I wanted to be black. I started mixing in and I always used to hate my colour. Yeah, it was starting from there. I was always, even before I went into care, I was always the little one that everybody would say do this, do that. So that wasn't just because of going into care I don't think. I think I always had that people pleasing thing to some degree. But obviously I was a child then. But no, no, no, no real memories up until we moved from Labyrinth Grove to Listen Green Estate, which is near the edge of her road, which is north west state. And we got to Listen Green when I was about seven or eight. We used to do the normal things that kids do, run out, some whatnot. But there always seemed to be problems with mum and dad. My dad never really used to say much. And now proud Indian man who never really spoke to anyone. My mum was more like me and you if you like James. We talked to everybody and quite early I used to notice that he used to hit her and it always used to be at certain times at night. Drinking? No, no, there was a hidden secret but I didn't know in them early days. And, you know, that started very rarely at first that I used to cotton on. But, you know, being a mummy's boy, I always used to want to protect my mum. So no stealing, no getting into trouble, schooling all right. Good at English, good at maths and things like that. And yeah, once we got to Listen Green, things just changed. He was hitting her at night and I was getting up in the night, waiting for the night time call because it was always a certain time that I would hear her crying in the bedroom and then I would just open the door and go in there and then get a beating of my father with a slipper or the belt. Because obviously he was upset that I was trying to protect mum. But yeah, that developed for a little while. I was finding it hard to go to school and things like that. I felt like the only one in school that was in care then days. Oh no, sorry, this is before care. Yeah, sorry, sorry James. Yeah, sort of build up leading towards care. So it was a bit hurtful for me to go over this but I think, you know, it's time that the public knows exactly what, you know, abuses and effects that it can have on you in later life. But anyway, yeah, we went on holiday. They were falling out. He was hitting her a lot. I was crying at school and we went on a trip to Barry Island with my godfather, Mr Hall, who was like a carer for us, a mum, a man from Hull, lovely, lovely man. And we went there first. Mum and dad were trying to patch up their differences and came about two days later. And, but they started fighting whilst we were on holiday for that week. So they decided to go back early so as not to affect our holiday. And it was on the way back that my dad had a stroke while he was driving. And obviously the ambulance had to come and, you know, it was touching go wherever he was going to live and all that. We got the news whilst still at Barry Island. And then we got the news that my mum had taken an overdose. And that was around about a nine and 10-year-old mark. And when we came back with Mr Hall, there was no one in the house to look after us, apart from Mr Hall. So I went to the hospital with my sisters, but I was more concerned with my mum. Did you check him out to your side? It probably felt like it, big man. But, you know, I was staring. I'll never forget the feeling I had. I didn't mind if my dad died. And I was more concerned like crying because my mum was, you know, in intensive care and what not. And I remember just thinking to myself, I hope my mum lives and I hope that he dies kind of thing. It was really quite deep. But after a few days of them being in hospital... Sorry, James. That's okay, but I'll take your team. After a few days of being in hospital, the social services came round to the house and we were... There was pulling and shoving everywhere because obviously it's been someone signed over. I can't remember which one it was. We signed over the care order to go into there. But I'd never forget the screaming the neighbours were in. There was a lot of crying, you know. But we had to go. We was all in our pyjamas in the 90s, the three of us. And we went in a car. I never forget cold, cold night, James. And you're standing on the doorstep outside a children's home. And, you know, waiting for the door not knowing what to expect the first time you've left your home with your mother. And the door opens and they invite you in and try and make you feel as secure as possible. And that was my first taste of institutions. How old were you? About nine or ten. So still only a young boy to then get took away from your parents and then get put into a home. And then, I know we spoke earlier about what it is you were getting abused in there sexually. Yeah, I'm afraid so, big man. From ten to twelve, right? So, I'm in the office. I'm sitting in the chair, right? A lady is there, a nice member of staff, right? Says to me, it's about time that you learn about the birds and the bees. And I said, oh, what do you mean that she goes, you know, you got to understand that you're going to develop and change soon and maybe you need someone to talk to. And I said, who? She goes, oh, I've already spoken to the manager and he will help you with this because you've got no father figure there. So I agreed and slowly but surely, James, I don't think you're going to like hearing this, but I'm going to tell you because I want people to know I haven't got no shame and guilt no more. And it's my story and I want to shed light on a lot of the stuff that's coming out now. It's related to the 70s and all the things that were swept under the carpet. So it started that way. And once a week, twice a week, you know, you come out of the bath. He wants to dry you down, do all that kind of that nasty stuff. And then quite quickly, I thought something was wrong. You know, with the fiddling about, oh, you haven't developed pubic hair yet. But anyway, big man, it got more, more, more serious, right? He started to come into the room at night, right? So it was that same time at nine o'clock. And the fear and the anxiety that I used to feel when he used to come into that room because it would always be around about the same time why the other children are sleeping. And I could feel my face going red, you know, like when you're trying to pretend you're asleep so he doesn't come in and touch you and take liberties. Big man. But sometimes, you know, he used to catch me on the ways and come. And, you know, I found it very difficult to resist and say, no, you know, I didn't really know any better, but I knew there was something wrong. And then there was, you know, walking down a fire exit, walking down a fire exit to him because his flat was on the premises and they walked me down and says, oh, maybe you should come and stay down in my room. And on that one time, I showed uncomfortability and he panicked and then brought me back up. But, you know, the abuse continued and got worse and worse. And then as well as that, it's very important for the public to know that, you know, like when you go to school and you've got to do the school report and your parents come to see how you're doing in all the classes and it happened, it used to happen once a year. And he used to come there as my guardian and like be a pretend father, if you like. And I always remember standing there. I didn't like talking to the tutors. It was like standing there and thinking they don't know. And I used to want to resist going into, because I didn't want to be in his presence and that, James. And the other time, I was a nippy footballer, bow footed, a bit messy like when I was smaller, you know, really, really jinky. And I was on Watford's books. I was playing the same forward line as Mark Steen and Richard Cadet. And, you know, I got there, Wally Downs was the scout back then. And I'd done a couple of training sessions with him. And I was playing also for Barnett District, which would have been on Sunday League, as well as the school team, which was Saturdays, I think. So all these football things were happening even though I was very small from my age. And one time, I only thought about this the other day, James, they never had a referee on a Sunday League, but that man was from Plymouth and he was a football referee. Interesting when I look back now that some of the other stuff I'm going to touch on. But my manager said, oh, yeah, but you're guardian. He's a referee. Do you want to get him? But I didn't want to get him. So they found the children. So I won that day because there was no referee. And he came to referee. But I'll never forget it because every time I got the ball and I was chopped down, he used to blow up for a foul for the other way. So I remember after the game, he used to say to me, oh, you'll never be anything. So if anything, I was losing my confidence. But he was breaking me down. I know, I know. It's things like that that you remember. The referee and the school report. It was like the boogeyman coming in at night. I used to lie there thinking and then I wouldn't want to go into school. And then after a year or so, James, I was with another person in the children's home and I told them and they said, you've got to tell the deputy. So the deputy's flat was on the premises as well. So we got into her flat, and the lovely lady was deeply disturbed when I told her and I thought she believed me and I think she did. So when I told her, there's obviously a big thing now coming out. He's not coming out of his flat because there's got to be a hearing at Westminster. Social services ran a big table. I remember the names of the people there funny enough. I thought about it the other day and I remembered. But I'm not going to say nothing here. I sat round the table and all of them were writing. Everything passed down and they said I could see by the body language that they had the pen and they were tapping like that. Like he was saying, I don't really want to do all this. So I got the feeling even though I was so young at 12 that they weren't interested. So I was feeling that at that young age. So I've gone back to the children's home. He come out one morning in dark glasses and not showing his eyes. And another member of staff said that's down to you. He doesn't want to come out and work at the moment until all this thing has been sorted out. So they made me feel like a liar as well. That's the scary thing that anybody that doesn't take an interest in a kid telling that they've been abused is probably a pedophile themselves. And it's so scary the amount of people that have come on here that have been in prison or had addiction issues have been abused or at some stage in their life. Because your life for the get-go has been in a household full of anger, frustration, tense all the time and then getting packed and then going through the children's home with us and brother for even opening up and speaking your story for other people watching. It gives other people hope. What home was this? Porter said house, Brunella State, still there today. And that's Gaestal 11? Do you know? I don't know. If he would have been about 40, 50 and I was 12 then, unlikely. Probably ended up, it wasn't. With all the knowledge that I've got now, especially with all the stuff that's coming out from the 70s where we know already it was swept under the carpet, they must have gone on to commit other crimes or, you know, they were breeding grounds now, realised children's homes, schools, football, agents. You would have been the only one, I think, if he's working in a children's school, vulnerable kids, it's a prime target for pedophiles to work because if people like yourself are going and telling their story, they're going to believe you and then going to work with the school boys and football and stuff, people need to be vetted more. They need to get background checks to understand. There's so many people in higher powers that are controlling this shit and it's fucking so scary the amount of vulnerable kids that are getting took away, abused, even killed. Do you know what I mean? Which is why I'm going to be a great campaigner for Save Our Children. I've already got context. But James, you know what? Let's get it out of the way. Cos, you know, I want to let it all out. That geezer, the tall one, he was like six foot, four or five. The bastard was, you know, six foot, six foot odd. So not seeing him for a couple of days. Not wanting to sit at a dinner table because they're making me feel like, oh, look what you've done to one of us kind of thing. And one morning, I didn't want to go to school. So I had my legionary bag on my shoulder and I said, no, I'm not going because every time I kept going into school I kept crying. So anyway, that morning he said, oh, you're going to school. And I said, no, I ain't. And he lifted me up out of the chair, opened the front door, had me in one hand open the door with the other and basically dropped me on the balcony outside. And I remember falling. I remember all the other kids were getting ready to school. They were laughing. But on this day, James, I weren't having it. I said, all right. So I went into the school bag, got the little compass out that you used to draw circles with, the metal one with the little pin at the end. And I pressed the doorbell and he come rushing out like he was going to do something to me again. And I run straight at him and poked him, you know, numerous times and that, you know. And somehow I got back out there because he fell down onto the chair. So I got back out and that was the first time I noticed adrenaline. So you plugged him? I plugged him. I've done him. I've done him. I've done him. But James, it was the feeling of the adrenaline, that high adrenaline that I got when I jumped on the school bus. I'll never forget. I was thinking, see, I can fight back. And that was that. That's good. And potentially I've been to 11, 12, 13 years. A build-up of being scared, vulnerable, accepting, nasty shit to then exploding. Was that the start of the violence that you went down? Yeah. Were you violent before that? I was like a little sweet boy. Everyone used to protect me. I was too little and too cute to get into any fight. Everybody would protect me. So I never really, you know, people could say things to me and then you jump in for me. I say leave him alone, you know. A lot of them were ladies actually that stuck up for me. A lot of people's mums. There was a little bit of love. You know, dinner come round. Bring little Sammy round. Let him eat some proper food. And that people's, you know, Jamaican, St Lucian, Dominican, you know, lovely, lovely parents for some of those kids that I was going to school with. Or being around the estate. But I had some good friends in that estate as well that I used to play football with because we had the fire beside complex across the road. And that I looked back the other day and I remembered I've been getting friend requests from back then that I thought I'd never see some of these guys in the estate. A lot of them were upset about seeing obviously the outward show and seeing me go on there because, you know, they lost me hundreds of years ago. And they came to get me in the school, James, right? And they come into the classroom to police and said, yeah. So that's after you've done him? This is after I've done him, right? So they brought me to Harrow Road Police Station. And I sat there and Mr Hall came, the great Godfather, the war two veteran, right? Lovely, lovely man, James, did everything for me, you know, in them early days when I was down really. And he said to me, don't admit to nothing. He told me. And I still had the social worker there saying, look, the best thing to do is being so in the morning, in Juvenal Court. And he's in the court with me as my guardian looking out because obviously mum and dad weren't allowed no contact with them after everything that happened at home during that stage. Because you've got to remember my mum was an alcoholic after us going into care. Remember I used to have to sneak out the window to children to go searching over Bayswater to see if she comes out the pubs and then walk home all alone because I did love my mum and I didn't like people taking liberties of her because she was really soft. And when she drank, it was that kind of thing. But I never got to Sora. I think they always used to tell her I'm outside and she used to go out the back way. But you know the God thing James was there from early on. I remember I used to walk all the way back to the children's home. My little hideout with the window to get back in. And one night I got back to the hideout because I used to use the mat to hold the door open. So it didn't close because it was one of those doors if you shut it. But this night I couldn't get back in. So this bastard grounded me. So this is before the stab in, build up to the stab in now. And yeah, I'm in the courtroom. I'm crying. You know they're saying, oh you've got to go to Stamford House, secure unit which is on Gold Oak Road, Shepard's Portion. That was my first taste of prison because you're not allowed to leave there or nothing. It's like a prison but a schoolboy prison. And people like Chris Eubank were there. Who was class? He protected me. I liked him. He used to always laugh when he used to see me because I was so small because we used to go on the football pitch and Mr Simons, he was there and they wanted me to play for their team as well. But three months there, a bit of a cry baby because there was all other little children there that were in for burglaries and robberies early on. And I was only in, well not only in, but I was in for such a thing but I never really used to talk about a crime. I didn't really want no one to know about it. And it's funny that he died, the geezer, later on a few weeks from a head injury or something. I remember his name. Not because of me, but he died. But obviously he's an abuser as well because he attacked me and threw me out the thing. He might have been not the one that was doing stuff to me. But I got to Sanford House and my first taste spot, I was weak then, small. I tried to run away a couple of times. They put me in this little block thing because they had those little wooden bed but it was like a cell door. That's like at 12, 13. James. And then they said, oh, we're not going to send you to an approved school this time. We're going to send you to another children's home and I was over the moon because I was too scared to go to an approved school. But I got children's home in Mozart State and the school wouldn't have me back so I lost out on that. It was like to mention my school teacher, everybody was scared of Miss Harding, an old lady, everybody was frightened of her. She used to always come to the children's home on Easter and Christmas and bring me presents with her army husband and I used to think she was a bad woman but I realised now in later life that really she felt what I couldn't see. Do you see what I mean? That's another angel that I look at, that I didn't see the nice hide when she used to come because she weren't my mum. I used to think, oh, I don't want her to come. But you'd have been scared of any adult at that time that you weren't getting, trying to get manipulated again and bullied and abused. So you'd have been fearful that she wouldn't want to come into your life, especially the ones who were good, that you'd have questioned everything, probably even to this day you'd have questioned everything but to be then you'd have been probably scared that she was actually trying to help you. Thank you, thank you, good one James. James, and then after Stamford House all the Mozart, because this is my fondest ever memory living in Mozart. Not listen Green and Labyrinth Grove because that was where I met a lot of good people and good ones, if you like. I know, like bad now. But you know back then the West London lot were a bit more suave and had a bit more swag if you like than the rest of the areas people might be open to debate but you know we were surrounded by a lot of nice places where you could steal and get decent money from quite early. I was scared at Christchewbank, it shows you he channeled his anger and aggression down the boxing route. It's crazy how we channel things and see things differently and where we get our kicks from and where we get our adrenaline rushes he was obviously blessed, he had a talent and he's used it. He probably still got that to his day. I think people don't really understand his character, he's got a phenomenal story. It's very deep. I spoke to him a couple of times and I tried to get him on the podcast but people see him as he's like a character, he's like when you break all that shit down he's actually a good guy because I know the guy was it Michael Watson, I think he was boxing and ended his career but he does a lot of charity work still I think for him to his day. He was big for his age James, unless it was because I was small and I was getting bullied by some guys called Morris Lewis. How do you remember their names? Because with dates, time being out at what prisons I went to it's all clocked into my mind because that's all I've ever done. What happened with Billy? He said leave him alone and they were head to head. He said leave Sammy alone and he was sticking up for me and it all got stopped and everything but I remember that bit and once I got to Mozart it all started and I never got nipped though in a few months in Mozart so I don't know whether I was never a good criminal anyway but I wasn't in reality isn't it you? I'm not old at my it was more of a lunatic thing. James but yeah it started the dances, wearing the nice shoes and nothing used to fit me I was too small but I used to wear everything size bigger and everybody had their big change not much different from now they've got all the bling but back then it was the golden things and big lumps of it I was too young, I was scared to wear my things out I used to get the shirt I made it under because it's not like now you've got a lot of robbers now that want to rob everybody's things and back then you only had one or two that would be doing that kind of thing see with your bracelet and chain and want to take you around a corner and take it off your kind of thing but no after Mozart State, the social worker said you've got too much new clothing they think you've been stealing we're going to put you in a preschool so I ended up in St Thomas More West Grinstead, Horsham, Sussex out the way where you can't leave you get weekend leave if you've got a stable home obviously I was always the odd man out I had nowhere to go so I had to stay there and you used to have to put your hands up like that in a marching kind of way going to work and kind of things in assembly they used to have a book they used to come in brothers or monks but very serious ones to get beatings there, James so they used to stand out in assembly and the senior man or Mr Glin he used to stand out with a book and say last night you were throwing buttons blah blah you run into that dorm blah blah blah he said can you come up here please so if you don't know my first bit I went up there and he said to me yeah would you think of that and when I went to reach for that he slapped me in my face and the whole assembly started laughing and I was like boys do I started crying embarrassing me I've got a couple of other beatings there anyway in the end after 10 months there now I met some big criminal names there that were there then that are still around today from south London yeah I run away from there went to stay at a friend's house probably my earliest friend and started burgling you know going to them the places that looked nicer than ours and after a few weeks someone got nicked and we all ended up in custody but back up in Stamford house and the police came James and said oh we want you to admit you've been out there doing a spree that kind of thing but straight away the other two said to me oh yeah you tell them so they made it up to me because I know now that I was the most vulnerable one James but then I started coughing up and pointing out what I'd done and everything and it was only me and all that kind of stuff and you know you go to court one got both of them got off and I'm standing there and they say to me look we don't want to send you to detention centre I want you to go back to another children's home and I stood there and shook my head and I was crying I said I'm not going back to a children's home I want to go to detention centre so that time there I must have been 15 or something like that James and they said you can't it be no good for you you've got the laid bench talking to me telling me that they don't want me to go and I was saying no no no I want you to go because I knew a couple of mates that had done the DC the short back and sides and march everywhere and came out fitter and stronger and you know I wanted to test myself and be able to tell you that yeah I'd done a DC I'd done a Borsal so I was doing all that I'd gotten a DC and you know the first day in there you know you get slapped about and all they play all kind of tricks on now and a couple of months in there I'm back on the street I'm 15, 16 and for the first time I'm not in an institution so I'll go back to mums and dads in my room but the house was like wanted to me James it brought back so many memories from the night you know every time I used to walk up them stairs I used to always think I don't want to go there didn't like it I was only a couple of months then anyway that would have been 82 83 I had my first love then yeah yeah Sylvia she's passed away now I know I was talking to her brother the other day good stuff he is Frank and so that's when I started a bit of drinking I didn't really like weed because he used to make me think too much you smoke solid hash? I tried in the early days so I didn't actually like it so I didn't actually do anything so during that period in 83 out there burgling for a couple of months going all over London and the outskirts and what not I ended up in St Albans Crown Court in front of Justice Drake and I couldn't see over the dock I got Nick doing a judge's house in Rickmansworth I was with an older guy he gave me the bucket and sponge and a Boy Scout uniform I said look Sam just knock on the doors pretend you want to do car wash and if they don't answer I'll go in so I was doing all that that kind of stuff but the police got called after we knocked the door come and got us arrested I went to St Albans Crown Court for four burglaries in 1983 when people were getting bossed or 18 months for a burglary I went to St Albans Crown Court the social worker went into the box and they were arguing over my body structure the hospital or some psycho saying look he's got a body a bone structure of a eight year old or something like that so he's not developed because you remember I hadn't started puberty by then James we'll go into that in a minute and I might believe on that why that it took so long for me to grow now the abuse the emotional shock puberty stopped the growth but I'm going to explain that to you in a minute big man so I'm standing in the courtroom you get I got four years for four drums I couldn't see over the dock I was wondering if I was hearing things my sister was in the dock my sister Jane was in the dock looking upstairs in the gallery crying her eyes out and the social worker was the one year we can't do nothing else for him now and off you go straight to Chelmsford and then Ashford Chelmsford and then Ellsbury with all the young lifeers the baddest youngsters in England with their big sentences James looking at that what I've told you about the abuser taking me here there everywhere there was one night he took me he said I'll take you to a Leeds football match and obviously I wanted to go but because it was him saying it I knew that there must be something behind it so I've ended up going to the Leeds Crystal Palace game my first ever home game at Ellum Road and Kevin Hurd scored a screamer but I was too scared to celebrate he was sitting right next to me and then on the way back he said to me oh we've got to stop off at Leicester on the way back I've got some friends there so I will stay there overnight and we'll go in the morning but when I got to the house I was you know this has been going on a while now James so I thought I don't want to the lady of the house has come to me and goes would you like to share a room with your guardian parent Joe kind of thing and I said to her no no no I told her no no no she goes oh okay but up to now I don't know whether they were in on it too do you see what I mean James but I think back to that but I got into a spare room and then on the way back he's behaviour when I look back obviously the effects of that for me you know I've had no counselling but I studied myself and obviously I look at the cutting off of emotions the people pleasing alright I was always a bit of a character as a boy but you know hard to say no right shame and guilt James the effects of pre-bubity the emotional shock now that I understand which takes place through fright when you know you're growing so that could stop stunt your growth I read it in Freud's when a Freud's things 20-odd years ago because I was a Damond Freud and Young Reader in the Catties and the Bees and all that in the early days when I used to read so I did myself study and understood what I was feeling put it all together and kind of blocked it out unless you know I was living with the trauma and didn't really know and we're just fighting but this was later on in life in the Catties but those effects as well as trust in general because you had a voice but no one listened you see what I mean how does that leave you so I asked you James English I asked the public I think I'm not Einstein or nothing and I'm a bit thick with certain things but what would that kind of abuse what kind of effects as a child would that have in later life you know a mega impact in your life physically, emotionally to be cold-hearted to have no trust and that's where you kind of understand the route you went down, the violent route because you're trying to protect yourself I don't want to be hurt anymore so I'm just going to give you a bit of damage I'll show you that I ain't a fucking mug because you know he's obviously manipulated you the people I have on here who have been abused have been manipulated have been groomed go to a football match this and that and when people got older they think why did I not cry out why did I not say something but you did try nobody believed you everybody else tried nobody believed them so it is difficult but then in your mind I've never been abused but you can understand where people get frightened and really some people blame themselves which is a hard thing but you can't blame yourself for what the shit you've went through brother it's not you it's the dirty bastards who are doing that I kind of felt I wouldn't approach women as well in my young age I was shy after that as well as the constant reminders James he's from Plymouth someone mentions Plymouth football team what do I think about you see that ugly boat the wicked bastard any face that looks similar to it what do you do it passes from your mind you always but like the trust thing in general obviously that was the main but I'll tell you what's giving me the power to talk in later life because you know it's coming to the end now for me with that bad career and you know the soul I want to make amends because as much as I've never put my hand on a victim outside for money or anything like that I frighten people with a gun and pretended to have bullets and things and a couple of people have broke down in front of me James and I've quickly put it away and broke down myself and left because you know what it's like but it's like I have to see be confronted with how somebody's feeling before I go oh no this is the kind of behaviour that I developed and I'll tell you what's giving me the strength is that obviously always known that I was a bit spiritual a much more deeper man and thoughtful man never felt sympathy and empathy and always tried to destroy myself if I hurt somebody that hadn't done anything to me which a lot of my victims apart from the first ones are unknown to me I mean James but choice maya prime example a speaker got abused by someone close to her out there everyday telling people and I resonate and relate to her because every line that she talks I think I felt that and I felt this, it's all walks not just abuse but she came through that the darkness of the light I'm inspired by people like that people like Tyson Fury so on it's what a great man I love his character I do James he's so himself but again like me you drive yourself to the darkest pits of despair and then just to see how you react to see if you can get back up it's a bit of self sabotage as well when you want to do something well if you're doing good you kind of think I don't deserve this so what I'll do is just fuck it all anyway and making excuses to go and do something stupid just to blame something when really it's all to do yourself he reminds me his behaviour because once he reached a pinnacle where he wanted to go he realised a lot of it the shit around it all fake people he's too deep and honest for that I love the way he says forgive me Lord for I have sinned brilliant man and again another role model for me in a different way he hasn't been abused or nothing but then you have Bernice Cattrell absolutely amazing lady I don't know her or nothing like that but I watch her and things who's come out the dark into the light who comes out there every day in full view of everyone get stick and it better be careful where they talk to her James because she's a good person and she comes puts herself on off a why because she tries to show the injustices that are going on in the world and she does it because she felt the same way herself whatever age it was I haven't gone soup into a door she's a bit like Joyce Mayer but it shows you how they do it you take the power back and then give it out to people that don't have a voice and suffer in silence that you're not to feel shame and guilt and I'm that guy or gonna be that guy you're speaking out just now as you're taking a bit of power back and people watching us you will help people watching us to come forward and speak out I'll be happy about that James and for me even when you say her name Bernice it makes you feel better but anyway not just abuse and that she campaigns for all kind of stuff these are the new people that I look at and feel secure and safe that I'm safe to come out because it makes you feel you're not alone and that's what I'm telling everybody you are not alone if anything that I can do to help anyone I will do because everything that I said back then has been brought up today's era and all of it that I told everybody has now been made because there was a football agent from Watford when I saw that Benali case he was a football agent and you hear that they were trying to group boys you come with me and I'll make you a professional footballer and I'll get you this contract and that one and that manipulating young boys and even that that happened to me as well they tried one person at a youth club I remember he says to me you're magic you are I used to manage Alan Devoncher a footballer for Westam but anyway James he offered to take you you come down to my country and I thought not this again as a small boy not just that in the children's but what I'm saying about the new role models James you know because I haven't spent a lot of time out and because I'm at this stage in life seeing people like that especially females where it must be more difficult to deal with that kind of trauma you know to speak out about those things and feel no shame and guilt that makes me now feel the same you see and I've been through so much in them institution all the wars all the battles all the mix ups and that we're going to get to that now but you can't beat me the only person that can beat me is me and that's how I always when it's all it has to be done it was so interesting that I could find ways to do it so I never gave myself enough credit because I hated myself yeah but you're still here feating my making amends which gets me on to that the other role model side of things James recent times you know before I was a vegetable and all the gang shit in gels going on and I'm watching it first hand and you remember I've got all my old troubles everyone from the cat some of them from 20 years ago and now dropping in to the seed cats later on so there was a month or two big man where everyone was turning up but my window was opposite the induction so I should just spy out the window I said oh fucking hell easy here and all that anyway I had to deal with a couple of things there as well but it was Thursday night this tea time has bang up all associations finished and it's all kicked off I'm on a wing and it's nine against four or five punching all going on but three or four of them good youngsters I really like them but I still lie in my bed and worry about them James it's so strange because I lie in my bed and think he's not going to make it they think it's going to be like that and reach because the youth sage now sadly is shorter spans of living not like our era back then the murders were quite not like months and years apart one murder you'd hear about for months but now it's every day and whatnot but yeah it all kicked off on that Thursday night and I was a bit slow I wanted to get involved but I thought no I'll stay in the background so you've got about 80 people on a wing plus you've got the spur next door because in the lower category gels which I've got to do in the later part people can come on the screws let them on a wing yeah go and see your mate over there so it's all crowded it's all swinging a couple of people have hit the deck but I've had a chance to move they start taking people down a block right they've taken all the people that didn't have no beef with each other you know how stupid they can be right so they've taken so in the morning I'm thinking oh everyone's still here I thought they moved they left all the ones where all the trouble was so I've come out the doors opened I'm leaning on the railings and I see a couple of geysers calling another couple of geysers yeah come come around the landing that way while they're coming that way but this morning now I've got my own one particular youngster too that obviously I like and I've got soft spots more so it's the same old story with me every time I've been in jail two daggers in my waistband and you know when the doors open because you know the life of lead James I always have to be ready unfortunately this is the way that was normal to me that's the way because you don't you want to be ready when they come so that's how I live for all them years most of them years and so they've gone round to me and they've all met at the same time and then other people are going but the two that I'm watching I've got my eye on so I'm moving at the same time so they're in the corner but they're stuck but I can see blood coming from down there James so I'm looking and I'm thinking everyone's dead it's like a a railings of inmates just watching all this like it's the the gladiator days in the Roman empire where everyone's just no one's stopping nothing right this is how it really is in those jails when the youngsters now be banned so when I saw the cut I said nah because it looked like the bell was going to go and then the little ones going to come out with a cut and I didn't want him to come out and plus I was thinking how deep is it and what not but you know I'm saddened to tell you that James obviously I pulled out I've walked over put the left hand in both of his arms the geyser at the weapon because the other guy didn't have the weapon lifting him up and the whole crowd's watching and I've put one and then it was bending the tool it wasn't the best one so while I had him like that I put that one back in my pocket and pulled out the other one a bigger one James sadly because I was hurt and you know it's wrong and I'm not promoting that kind of stuff but this is what's happening and I'll get to the message now so I've done the next one and then the bell's gone and all the screws are running everywhere and bloody bloody bloody this is what they say I did by the way this is what they're saying I'm just telling you the story so that's the realities of prison this is what happens day to day in the local gels and in gels where they're understaffed where everybody can run riot and that kind of thing so they said I swerved out the crowd and I just disappeared and I was the invisible man and got away and everything what age were you then this is recent this is the last bit that's the last bit but anyway James the message about this anyway not the story it's about the persons that were involved that day or around about it that day and I went back to myself I thought about it and I thought look at this you've got to be doing all this to show your enemies to show people that you're still doing it and don't worry I've got your back you always rely on me you're still doing that kind of thing based on your history and your people you've got the youngsters telling you what to do when really you should be telling them what to do Samson you're just playing up to the crowd as usually you don't care what happens to you these are really serious things that are going on but you're making it look like it's just like a day's work in prison because a lot of them came with what tuna cans in socks that day and then you're saying na na na na tuna cans in socks ain't doing it this is how you do it so as a bad role model I'm showing them the wrong way and what happens now you're getting used a lot in the jail because you were so dangerous well yeah but I don't consider myself I put myself up for sale because I didn't want to live and I was people pleasing I wanted stuff and things like that James but the thing about it the message for that being a bad role model I wish I could have not had that but when I used to lie down think about them youngs this is so strange that the last few weeks the last couple of months whatever a couple of them have been gunned down big headlines in the papers and all that I see the victims families and all type the crying the things and all that and do I lie on my bed and feel guilty about it because of what I showed them because they were showing tuna cans and I was saying if you want to be the baddest man on the planet you got to do it this way so people who are fighting that day have been shot just a couple of months ago outside outside different incidents it's scary but this is the society we're in what prison did you do your biggest sentence the caries yeah what one long line how long did you do in there whitemore five years long line and three years nine months in full sun block how many jails you've been in half the A's nearly all two thirds of the B's and I did the C's early on when you're a burglar when you're younger when I was getting the fours staying out for a month getting another four remember it was two thirds and what you lose remission wise so I always used to end up doing most of my time because I know Marvin became like a brother for the last few months we've got a lot of big plans together he speaks very highly of you and he doesn't speak highly of many people he doesn't he puts it straight man he's starting his own podcast and shit and all you've got your documentaries and stuff coming up now no I love him but he speaks very highly of you he says you're the real deal how did that relationship become about he was younger and he was a family member to one of my best friends porky and I saw him when he was little younger than me because he was younger than me but obviously I disappeared early and funny because I didn't because I forget people James and then I saw him he's doing his stuff similar to mine he's changed his life around and the changing him is remarkable I couldn't believe it was the same man and all that but James this is funny that you know because I touch on a little a story as well but I didn't see him missing him I saw him once in the 80s or twice and then the early 90s a couple of times but the time when I saw him when he was at his peak because you know as you know he got out he got out of a lot of big cases and things you know Marvin he lived that that criminal lifestyle out in the world the elite if you like but I didn't get to you remember I was a gel man and a warlord and a bit of a mug but that time in swellside when he'd had enough I was doing my own thing then and he fell out with the two biggest brothers on the wing now obviously he's like family and I haven't spent a lot of time with him outside but I've got to have his back so he's once a fight it's all kicked off and they're saying alright the gym the changing rooms so I'm saying alright this is night before night before I said to him yeah alright I'm coming I'll be alright and all that you know what he's like but I said you know what I can't see him winning this one I think I'm going to have to get involved and you know I'm going to have to I'm going to end up down a block and shipped out but they've gone in there the first one took him to the cleaners no one got a punch in so I'm kind of taking back because I knew that he used the box a little but obviously I missed how well he got kind of thing he never landed a punch in him the other ones come it didn't last as long but you know he wobbled him and everyone starts it was embarrassing for them to be honest the way that Marvin did that and obviously I was laughing and I was breathing a bit heavy and the adrenaline were walking back and I'm going yeah boy is that is that it here Marvin he's going oh come on you have me man you know he was on stuff weren't he but his brother Barry I had a big relationship with him in the Catties and he is a living legend about he's the Scouseyami we used to team up you know for the rubberies and all that but he could have a right row I mean he fights so much and where he smokes and that people might look down but you know he fought with anyone windows or draw but I saw some great victories from him and funny James I've got to tell you this one we was in the gym no we're on the landing in Whitemore and it's gym in the evening time so we used to have a trick me and him where he'll take me on the pads hold him for me and make me look better than what I was so he's doing that he's got the pads because a few of the dealers are around that side and they're not really fighters some of them are some of them are some of them ain't one of our gameful tricks that we used to play and I said to him right we'll go in there, what's his name there because you know we ain't going to get nothing tonight but we'll pull this one so we did this a couple of times and got what we needed or whatever not just drugs and other things as well but on this particular night we've got called to the gate he has, I'm standing behind him and somebody else is saying to him listen I don't want him stabbed or nothing but I want you to do him in some Giza give me whatever it is I don't know what it was but he took that and obviously I'm excited alright we're going gym now so we've gone down there we're doing the trick again with the pads so the Giza that he's got to do the hit on is there so I'm going looking like the greatest of all time and really I'm not he just knows what angles and he's good at holding the pads right on a few people then don't fight James bang now he's gone do you want to have a go to the Giza with the pads and he's gone yeah well I don't really know how to do it but can I have a yeah I want to have a go so I'm going alright alright I was sweet mate and Barry started doing the he's hitting the pads of the Giza and Barry's gone nah nah nah nah take the pads so he's taken the pads right left underneath Barry's done one where he's caught him and knocked him out but you and I know that he's done it on purpose so he can say the job's done but it was an accident good one really but these are the things again the reality the realities of prison all the lifers never getting out all the bitter and twisted all the plotting and the scheming you can get done at any time oh yeah out near opposite the Albert Hall Was that a mollion qued? yeah so but I sold it all for bollocks James to be honest it was late at night I didn't know you knew about this James you know that was 90 I don't know I mean so that was you know 94 then before I got the 8 and did 6 out of it and come out in 2000 when I got the 12, 13 years but my biggest one was opposite the Albert Hall yeah Saturday night Princess of Jordan or somewhere Saudi Arabian family and got into the penthouse apartments got into the fire exit where you climb up all the gaffes are bailed obviously they go round and round and round climbed 8 floors lay on put my head through the window I couldn't hear no one when I've gone into the bedroom I've never seen a gaff like this and the safe was open so dinars dollars and a tiara and a matching set watch this now James excited come out think I'm the bees knees of all time big emeralds of diamonds thinking yeah yeah I'm in the game but I was smoking cracked them days and I was to sit in my cousin's house and smoked six seven hundred pound on my own in the dark and never come out of the room so when I've got this touch which is how we used to look at things in them them sad days for everyone I sold piece by piece like an idiot and obviously got ripped off because all I was interested in was doing what I was doing so I was out three months and then they come a handprint or something and then I was in the courtroom and they sent a representative down asking for the tiara back I felt so sad that I couldn't give it back to them James he said look we get this dropped and will give you such a side but it's a family heirloom and they were all sitting in the gallery watching me they were going to drop the charges because it was standing in the dock and you're looking in you're thinking who's all that who are them and then the geezer in a suit come down and he said yeah I'm at the money so much because I said no no no if I get out I'll try and get it back for you but the truth was I got it broken down so I ended up with something like James I must have ended up with about 60 and that's it and they said 1.2 just shows you what the drugs can do to you what I really cared about I didn't really care about it was more getting the prize and showing all them look what I've got you know I'm raffled with the pink pamphlet I'm identifying myself with that same old thing from when I was young the things that I was taught because I'm of the firm belief when you're a child it's what you see what you hear and what you felt and if it's not dealt with inside you know you don't get to mature and get to to understand your child and mature and growing up outside so I'm getting taken away while I'm already fucked if anything so I haven't learned nothing about outside life or relationships all these things that those things now I realise have an effect on me Did prison become your home though did you become so spent so many years in prison did you make something weird but was there some things that you wanted to be caught I think I always left that you know someone asked me the other day but you never got nicked working and I said no I know they said you always left things behind I said because I didn't really care because I knew that the amounts that I would smoke and then weeks and months I'm out would be enough to kill me if I stayed out a year or so no one smokes like that James you don't put £50 in a spliff one king's eyes rislin and you start hearing voices and all that and then I started to get the gun and sit there and watch the door and see the handle and I said does this all madness because you think I haven't got no enemies outside because most of my my sentences are on my own How long you on the drugs bar? I started with that but it was really in jail that I started all the yeah but I never did the brown outside I didn't like it because of the but it's all the majority thing you can get yeah that's when it that sent me the white sent me off key where I did one so yeah and the brown made me right I want to die today I don't care I'm getting you know that prison thing and have I saw say though nah nah nah I've got some paper work too one day though they ever you know because you know the bad mouth and thing James a lot of people say yeah this is that he's this he's that well just to let them all know I got all my police records and prison files from every single sentence if they ever want to get into he said and they said you done nearly 40 what did you get 46 years and done nearly 40 years and say in institutions I've had one Christmas in 37 years and since I was 12 which is how many is 43 so you've got to see that out of 43 I would have act of spent 40 or 39 40 in custody in an institution of some kind there's a name yummy come from something to do with jammy or something that was that can you be jammy feel well in the early days I was a when I when the children's own days the Mozart days I got that when they came out of a a bar in Port Bella Road and I was with a gang of other kids and a man was counting money in them green 50 pound notes them days and they were saying look grab that grab that but straight on the second I I dive between the four of them because the money was like that somehow done a leap grab the whole set of notes and the whole street started chasing me and I got away and then the rest of them took the money off me anyway jammy to jammy and then he's a jammy Sammy and then once I started all the greedy bastard in jail like he want your thing and you want to do it nothing's gonna stop me I don't care I live here this is my home it's the same as street which is why I say it was a playground for me but the message to to the youth of today is that that's not the way to do it because the more bad stuff you do the more skeletons and worries you get when you're older because you never get to live in peace it's only now that like you know someone say saying I know that I could be murdered over my past James but at the same time I accept that I accept because it's not the biggest things that have happened where a man feels violent it could be the smallest thing you never given me his phone card or you never paid him his can in or you'd be surprised some people hold deep feelings over absolute things when you were the one doing bad things anyway the parasites and all that caramel's always comes into play but if you can change your life and start doing good I believe life can get balanced out that's the beauty of your life I always repeat myself when I say this shit but it is the beauty of your life I've had many men on this show who nobody thought they would never change but there comes a point as well when you do all that bad shit is to pretend that you're strong and crazy but we actually admit your past and grow a conscience and accept the people you've hurt the victims and go I'm sorry that shows the courage that shows strength that shows the character that you want to change what do you think you've had over the years I've got quite a name none of them have done nothing to me they're not to blame for me not getting a chance to have a decent childhood because I always had that spiritual voice like if you like the God voice always telling me that you don't like doing drugs you don't like doing things to people so you're only going to punish yourself because you know that you're wrong so it's more the mind because when you're taught when you're younger and you like from there to there to there to there that you've ever gone your brain becomes small doesn't it you think well go there go there go there but now in later life we know that you can go there and see something different you can like some of the role models or the people that I aspire to you know that I get inspiration off you know that kind of thing there are good people in the world James I read that story is it true or not that you wanted to give 5 year enemies and one day 5 people who had enemies or have you tried to target them all I wouldn't say that if we were talking about that day on the yard in Highdown where in fact it was 3 people but it was meant to be 5 but everybody was in different corners of the yard James but it was more of a frenzy more creepy and sneaky and then the bell went and I got back in and then I suppose my greatest fight with the screws was that day or shortly afterwards where I went hell for 11 and realised that old in a minute you can have a right go when you really want to you know everything's always within me like when I was a vegetable James I always used to think I'm getting up in a minute I fell off the top I fell off the top bunk bed in Wandsworth late at night 40 bed sitting up geyser downstairs below me on crutches so I'm on the top bunk I got up to go toilet, the bed was moving from side to side I sat on the edge and went head first it was all over the floor was covered in blood he rang the bell and I was lying there and the hospital came and the ambulance woman like I remember when I was fading off James she was crying it was her first night on duty and she said oh he can't make that because the gate was closed in Wandsworth they couldn't get the ambulance out of the thing but there's a spinal cord cervical 3 and 4 and 4 and 5 and I was in hospital for 5 months and all the experts one from Australia said look you've got the same injuries as Superman you've got the exact you won't be able to walk or use your hands again what were you thinking at that moment I just my missies came and obviously a heroine for her to see and in intensive care the horrible ones from Wandsworth as well so funny that it was the ones that I didn't like that were there because a week before the injuries James I had a punch up with them this is recent times before the injury and I punched the I punched the governor in the mouth they moved me everyone was there they were talking to me like I was a little boy James and you know when everyone's there you can't do that to me when everybody's there get your back up because you know you're better off coming to do me on your own so I'll go alright leave it but if there's a crowd there don't bother trying because I've got the set of skills that all stems back from being younger and getting embarrassed in front of crowds that's for you when you used to get called out yeah it's the only time I performed at great when everybody was there because when you feel you're most vulnerable people are laughing at me so so I'm always talking about extension when you got brain dap you fell off the bed and they're all saying to me look I'm saying listen I just spoke to God because it was late one night after about a week so we got the collar on and everything James lying there saying George is like that and I'm looking two screws are there Mrs has gone my first ever relationship we'll get round to that and I'm looking at the sky and I'm laughing so they said what are you laughing at and I said because I just spoke to or looked at God or felt God or whatever and he said to me I said to him what is that how it ends for me to be dead and buried and he looked at me but I heard him say and I heard him James they could call me a nut or whatever I'm a Christian now and I'm giving my life to God and the cause and many people that were abused victims used God's help to get them through these dark times and get to tell their story but I lied there and I told them I said listen he told me he said you got out of everything else I got out of this one and I was going well hold on a minute what you saying then but it was almost like that relationship that I've had for years you'd be alright Do you think that was that wake up call to give you the kick up to say I'm going to try and change my life Isn't it crazy that all this shit you've been through you've been stabbed Have you ever been shot? No I've been in a car that was shot that hit somebody else after all that Did they believe you that story the guards and shit that they think you'd been done They told the whole prison they said there you are bad man because that thing happened with the governor a week before they were going see that's it now paradise for life never walk again and blah blah blah People were laughing at you Well they were laughing but I got a big card though they brought a big card from 100 of my signed when they heard that I got back up and they told them yeah me and then they started once I got up because I was doing that James first it was a thing where you had to be hoisted out of the bed on a machine up there to be put down there this is going on a few weeks and I'm lying there but I was still laughing my missus was saying what are you laughing for I said don't worry it never felt that way to me inside James I never thought that I wasn't getting up and they're saying Superman injury you can't you know it's too high up and do do do do but you know James I got up and then started acting flash so I was doing that first getting up standing up and then but I made sure the bed was there so that if I fall I fall back down onto it so up there we go stop it stop it stop it stop it stop it stop it yeah me you can't get up and I said nah I ain't taking you got to stand first that's what I was saying and they were going nah because we're on old school I'm sorry to say as well James that there's been mix up with me in the screws and that for years and years and years and I don't listen to nothing they say so while I was in the hospital I was still arguing back while I couldn't move I was going I'll be up soon you watch you tell me anything watch I'll be up soon I was doing all that shit so up to the nurses I really liked lovely ladies I said look when they're not looking I goes let me stand up and try and do one and she was going oh I'll get into trouble I said no no no come on man do one then I done one two and I said nah it's all bullshit I got if you do one two you got to be able to do three and four and five or six so you got this dream but that shows you your character to be able to do what you set your mind to and that's the power of the mind you can do I never knew that all the stuff that you've been through where you should have actually what was it like being out for the first team in so many years in hospital were you ever thinking about us getting nah because I was in there five months nah they thought they always paranoid of me like when we got to stand more James right because they I've got history for having affairs with staff you know they just happened a couple of times over the years and you know that you're the big man James you can get into him get into him and see because I'm always that guy yeah do you want to be it I'll go up front for everyone so I'm that kind of middle man as well so my name gets called in a lot of things but really I never got nothing out of it I just put you two together and you bring it in for him so I was good at that so my history says so and they were weary of me the screws in ones of them and they're all young ones now and I know some of the old ones and they're all right really but the young ones some of them I couldn't really and I was saying listen shut up and did it so once I got walking walking a few steps after eight weeks nine weeks but I still couldn't move my hands I still couldn't move my hands I still couldn't move my hands and um so um James there that started to come a little bit after so that would have been about 10 weeks and 11 weeks once I got to stand more and then they said oh you can't go and sit in the the room with the other spinal patients because I was in a ward full of spinal patients then I got my own one but the ward I was in everybody had lesser injuries I mean but no one got up so I started to think well hold on a minute you're a bit lucky here really considering the seriousness of the life changing injuries and all that but you know shame off James the usual yummy one would have walked into the gym and were you taking gear before you went no so you were getting yourself clean anyway did you have a lab date did you have a date to get out or anything no because I was on a recall on the last eight which I did I've done seven out of really so you had a year left I had no when the injury happened I had two years left so I'm on a recall where you got for hearings every and you know when I was on my death bed I had a hearing and they said no James they wouldn't let me out my Mrs got the MP from down by I'll tell you her name good lady in the wheelchair as well I forgot her name she said I'm an Asian lady lovely lady and she said listen what do you mean you're not going to let so they left me there so when I got up anyway in Stanmore I started to give the bop I can't really feel my feet on the floor I haven't got sensation everywhere as you would expect but when I walk into the physio room you have to go a long way around here I'm talking to all the you know the screws don't really like it because you know that if you're liked and you like people and you want the best for them you know some people are going to shine to you and you're going to shine back and then they're going to stick up for me when they're trying to do because it kicked off in the hospital one night James isn't it weird they said oh you have to not use the general phone at the desk to start using the screw watchers mobile phone I said what? I said why is that and I go alright then let me use it now because I've got a phone my missus so he says no no I've got to wait for orders and blah blah blah James I could barely stand and all that and I'll pick up the chair and went like that with a cuff and all the nurses the ladies all the ones I get on with they run in and I went like that and I was moving round the side of the bed to come round that way because he's sitting there and I'm walking I'm lifting it because he felt like he was bullying me and taking a piss out of me being disabled some of the stuff he said I thought you know what I'm having it so I picked up the chair and came round the side and all the ladies yeah see Abbie no no as soon as I saw them I didn't want them to see that side of me you see and they said they heard what he and they knew but anyway you go back to once with you're in cuffs I felt gutted to go back after that it was like being out you know socialised because I've never been in a hospital before that would have been the longest you've been out in what 55 years man didn't it but I'd only ever been in a hospital twice before once when I got knocked over in the children's on by a van and I went all the way up in the air and fell on the floor on Marleyburn Road but I didn't have no injuries and the other time when I got stabbed in Swellside when the whole yard when they rushed me at labour change and I was protecting someone else and I picked up two there and I had someone in my arms that got one there and I dropped him and then got one there but you know I got done that day because I never had a weapon it was after that that I started using weapons and forgetting about the knock out punches and all that you got a queen's part done as well so how did that come about the queen's pardon was did you see if I guard? no no no it was a woman probation officer called Carol Ballardy she used to work in an office outside right in London but in the old days in the 80s they used to come in once a week or whatever to do the job in Wandsworth so my girlfriend at that time her son was pregnant the baby was just my son was just born and they put a note under the door saying you got to go camp here in the morning on the ferry so I'm lying here this is 1989 march and I'm lying there thinking James nah that's too far for visits I don't want to go there so in the morning because you only get two days notice before they just come Wandsworth was dangerous them days as well you get the shit kicked out of you what it is now in Wandsworth was nothing back then with the old lot and the old mentality of the screws but so I've worked out a plan because when you apply you've got to make an application to see the probation officer and that can take a week or two so I'm thinking no way I'll be on the ferry by then I've gone on the yard exercise where you're all round in single file with your blue jackets on them days come back to the wing I said nah she's in today so when they were banging up everyone because you have to get banged up in Wandsworth them days no one's left out apart from cleaners and what not but I've disappeared on to the ones sat on the toilet with my feet up with my head down so the bits covering my thing like that so they've looked over you always know they're not going to look over they're looking for the feet and whatever the institutional tricks James and then um I've gone upstairs I'll see the line was that way the probation rooms that way so they're not facing the door they're all in the queue waiting to be asked to go in so what I did was push right to the front of the queue to get chatting to her and without looking in I opened the door when I opened the door there was a man a foreign looking man with an article in his hand with his hand round her throat and walking backwards like he was coming round the table to come out of whatever he was going to do I didn't have time to think and he was bigger than me at that time I weren't that strong as I am now then so I didn't know the only thing I could do again a female I've gone running in there so he's I ended up getting a little small scratch nothing much but we ended up rolling over the table she run out the room pressed the bell never seen as many screws as this in my whole life James about 100 all the whole wing was covered in uniforms right come I somehow end up on top of him by luck so I don't know how that happened but you know I was lucky so I was on top of him so they pulled me off him so they pulled me in the corner got him in the corner they're talking to the woman the lady and she's saying trying to say but obviously she's in shock she can't talk properly so they've wrapped him up right so then they're coming for me and they think you're a part of that so they're bending out I go God no it ain't me I ain't done nothing he's gone put your head down you know I mean bend my wrist put my head down but as I'm walking past I can see the lady's legs and you know sad she had tears sad James and she come and said to Mr Baker he's dead now he used to he was a proper bad one but I rated him though as a screw he used to come in and search you on his own in Wandsworth in the old days he used to come through the door and he's on everybody freeze he had that that energy that made people scared I've never seen a bunch of serious convicts run from a screw but he's there talking to her and he's looking at me I'm saying hold on so so I'm standing up now and then she's come and he's gone right hold on let him go and then brought me round he goes oh he goes you're my hero Yami he goes I'll get you I don't I don't involve my name in anything I'm par about the come backs you know I looked at her went upstairs and then he gave me a job on the hot plate and he said you're everyone that went past see I got slagged off for that back then because they said that you know I got him I stopped to do they start to grasp me off for that but but James you know that women could have been killed over it but that brings a lot of memories back from your mum being beaten up with funny that in it when it affects it does do that to me even now I don't like seeing a lady cry it does my head in so he's brought me on the hot plate he said you get an extra fish today I thought oh yeah Downsview were just open and it was a male's prison and he goes right Mr Turner used to call him Mr Angry in the mornings when the bell used to go on the bastards proper proper different in the old days James I've gone to Downsview doing a free and half year stretch gone to Downsview doing a free and half year stretch and with about nine months left two geysers in a suit came with a certificate with the writing on it called Royal Warrant and my mum gave it to my mum she stuck it on the wall and I got two hundred and 75 days back off my EDR earlier state of release not parole right because I never ever got parole off any sentence right two hundred and seventy something days a Royal Warrant and to come off your thing for a heroic tax that's unbelievable I got that did you get a thing off your sentence that was it just under a year so I got it out next week I had nine months left or something I only had a week left and I went out and I was clean I run a wheelchair marathon for Banstead with the wheelchair sponsor I did that I went to college for the first time in life for six weeks and then 1990 out six weeks got upset in the cafeteria during the college course went to Knightsbridge with a briefcase in my hand and got nicked four five banham locks and no one was in but I took off the door with my feet I took it off a banham I had a good run up and took it off it took me nearly 40 minutes to take it off and when I got disturbed by the poor lady she come through the door I tried to show her my college pass and tell her I was Israeli intelligence and she hit me with the handbag but you know I legged it down the stairs didn't do nothing to her and the builder come running down the road and slung street James said oh are you but I was pretty nifty and rapid knocked him to the floor jumped on a bus I jumped on a bus but it was a bus that was going back to the depot with no one on it and when it turned the corner two plain clothes policing football scarves said excuse me so can you come off the bus please something's going on you just hit a builder and then I got nick for that and then I was away and I started to take chugs in jail round about that time so 8 years prior to that wasn't really a smoker was that a numb the pain no no no someone said to me one day your energy is too high you need to you need to cool down and where I didn't used to do puff I thought let me have a go but it turned me into a raven lunatic what kind of people because I know I always touch on no razor smurf who's been on the show I haven't seen that I haven't heard about it the tourist bank robber apparently one over 200 banks guy changed his life in prison oh I know him james I know james bro he's a smith I've been in about I've been in the cattays with him whitemore, parkers, albany high down bellmarsh I've been everywhere he raises you do you know it's funny right brain box is very intelligent a proper light raising not the kind of man you want to mess about with he's one of them ones you can't really approach him but me and him had a good he used to laugh at the things I did he used to say yeah he was in church one day and I robbed someone in the back room you know he would say you're a lunatic mate and then one day he said to me we was in bellmarsh I'll never forget because I was with him in the cattays he was a writer from back then he was already on that path and I saw him whitemore in later years when I got that big one and you know something sad happened and I never saw him again after that but I did like raise I was a good-hearted man once on me bellmarsh he said to me he come out and he said to me he said yeah me come here and I said yeah yeah I said we say him raise he goes I've got some cards here can you get some certain things for me I said to him yeah yeah I'll do that and when he put the cards in my hand he went like that and he held onto my hand and he went yeah me you're not going to do me over are you I said raise I've got to come along and I'm not going to do that to you like all the things he goes all right but he was laughing he knew that but he felt the need to say it and obviously I brought back his raise as one of the ones that I brought back your things yeah definitely I liked raise he's reading the newspapers in there he's doing well I spent time what was he like I liked him as well to be honest James very intelligent and not what they say I spent two months in Whitemore Downer but he asked for me the other day I just wrote him because he phoned and messaged me and I got something off him but someone the other day but I've had to write to him as well but I spent time in the SEGS a couple of time my memory is a bit jaded but one of them I was with him for two months and calling me out at the window and he used to always be on me to do my training and say you have me dunk you don't need it and blah blah blah I saw some of his drawings sound advice not a big ego geezer not a bully a man that just for his own cause was probably belittled by them at a certain time in life James and fought back and he's done it that way for years I would have had him as the strongest the baddest man physically because I can say there's a lot of bad men if we're talking about that kind of stuff that I used to look up to which I don't know more what they did outside and inside but really in reality the physical thing one on one with Charlie I can't really say I admit some tough tough geezers and even some of the people that I've mentioned by way of interviewing because I knew them more and saw a lot more from them but I've seen it like you said there's some quiet quiet bad men oh yes the quiet ones you've got there's the ones who I know quiet guys who are just sitting up nobody knows who their name but they are proper proper men they just do their thing and keep quiet but yeah that's in life they good stuff that right I'm glad you mentioned him he's a big name I've read one of the books I think he's getting it maybe a year or two oh that's Charlie no Charlie might be out next year he might be that'd be good they asked me the other day I think he would manage what do you think back now looking at your life and spending so much time in prison how do you see it I honestly look at myself as a social shamanon I see it more that whatever suited me and whoever was there I pretended like them or loved them or be like them all different kind of gangs James all different walks of life I just basically acted in a way that I thought that everybody but in doing that lost my identity because I was always a sad deep man you know all the some of the bad stuff that I've talked about another podcast and all that it sickens me makes me think that you know it was always when something was on offer that I would you know that I would do something crazy and then they'd all talk about it yeah he's a nato he done this and done that but really it's like a defence mechanism you know I think it was a shield to say well but then I'm loved a lot as well James I'm loved quite a lot by a lot of villains I got a lot of squeezes because there's other people you know like if you're talking about the hierarchy of you know like the Marvin Herberts the Terry Adams is a lot of bigger names that you've probably heard about you know I had little respect of those kind of people and even with Terry Adams you know he used to always he was in the Cattays in recent times and I met him through someone else I didn't know him I think I knew one of the brothers from the early days and he used to always say look he betted on me once with a powerlifting he goes bet today so bet I'm going to win so because I was the lightest so he bet whatever his currency whatever it was because he does his little thing sound sound you never know what he's thinking serious serious man Terry good bloke James isn't it funny that he once said to me shall I bet today this is like six months later and I went nah I'm on the gear again forget it and he goes ah you go see he goes but I like you yummy it's funny during that time that Cattays now that I think about it back then they used to have these parties like each parties James and it takes a few days you've got the start on and you've got to hide it somewhere and you've got to have it but on this Saturday right I don't think I've told many people this but there's people that obviously was dead and they know about this morning me and my manager laughing but I said I know I'm a proper mug mate but but it was Saturday everyone was looking forward to it right black and white this one you know all the heavy mob there what makes me laugh is they all say hello now and again but they don't really like each other you know they don't hold conversations a lot of the big the big ones you're right sweet keep it moving it's not like me James who gets into relationships with everyone if you have any problem I start feeling a pain for everyone because I like you and I like you and I like you you know and then you've got to think well when it all kicks off with all of them what are you going to do and that's happened a couple of times and I've had to hide behind a curtain like that looking so on your head at each party so it was Saturday right there was a bent screw on that day right he never liked me but I didn't know he was bent so he's always going get back to yourself he's always won and I say shut your mouth you're a mug you're a muppet don't talk to me and do do do do do do this went on for years like this James and so the party's coming I've got the guest list so I'm the one who another big man gives me the paper and I've got to go Saturday morning now there's only 15, 20 spaces for two cells right and everybody thinking oh yeah I'm friendly with everyone what didn't you get me in yummy I'm saying no you're not on the list I don't want to say you don't like it or whatever but you know I've had to and then Elle Till's walk pass and yeah what am I I'm coming in I'll be there right so Saturday's come a lot of disappointed people we've all gone in there and the drinks died because weekends is earlier bang up and you've got to bang up by 4.35 so it's 1.30 so over lunch everyone's getting really dressed and all that because there's MDNA and there's Uch James so we've gone in there first it's the soul the old soul and we're all having a little dud the Uch was making me drunk that day James and then I've swallowed a little bit of magic for the first time in life I've never ever done it they said put it in a risla and half of the group not Elle Till he didn't touch nothing right so I've swallowed that and after everyone's loving each other even all the ones that don't get on all hugging and kissing and he's alright don't worry about that it was nothing everybody's letting their guard down when the music started to get higher and higher with the garage and all that Elle Till looked at me and I was having I had to see a healthcare nurse once a week she was like a psychotherapist so once a week when you're in prison for years you don't get no visits or nothing I'm not in contact with the outside world my body is like a way and you get dreaming looking at certain females I love her, I do she's really nice but you know it's in your mind you make sense of it and all that but on this day James they're all dancing and Elle Till's going that's enough of me I'm at I know that but he could hear what they were all saying to me saying to me I said listen I gotta go out for cause I've got an appointment with the healthcare nurse Felly, fe iswyddo ni gallwn gofynio o ddiogelio gwahanol ar yr hyn ychydig fel gwahanol, fe iswyddo ni gofynio mewn gwahanol,Firstimelt, fel LL was at the gate, he went like that to me. He said, don't listen to all that bollocks, Yami. Don't get in the... I was like, no no no no. What did I go and do? I went down near James. I sat up at her. I was buzzing out one high and I looked at her and she looked at me. We cracked a joke about something, but like the fool I am I leaned over and tried to kiss her on the cheek. Felly beth yno yn dda'n ddiwrnwyd, yna'n hwn yn ymwnt. Kilflwy, wedi weithi'r rhanion. Mae gwaith, mae'n mynd ati'r ddweudiaeth. A gwybodd me. Mae'n drwg i'r rhanion ar gell. Ddiwrnwyd yr ysgol, o ddweudio o'r bwzgidau, os i ddweudio'r bwzgidau, os gofynol ac mae wedi ddweudio'r bwzgid. Mae ddiw wedi chrysiannol yw. Dwi'n dal yn oed ffnol. A stim yn y rhani ar hyn tref. ..y'n dod oedd, ac yn y bwysig, yn rhoi, roi, roi, roi, fel ydym yn gweithio'r wych. Mae'n rhai, yn y bwerdd. Felly, rydyn ni'n mynd i'r blwyddyn. Felly, mae'n meddwl. Mae hwn yn gweithio'n meddwl. Mae'n rhai, rydyn ni'n meddwl. A'n grannol iawn! Felly, mae'r gwaith arall ar y cyflawn, mae'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd. Mae'n gweld o'i beitwch y dygu, a bod yn amliwedd i'w ddigonwch. 46 sylwg yn ynig. Felly, ac yn ddigonwch eich 40. Ac mae'n amlwg Llundwch. Mae'n deall. Mae'n dweud. Mae'n achos cyflos i'r ystyried. mae'n cwestiynydd i'r ystyried yma. Mae'n gwam amser o gyda'n ffordd. Mae'n gael.. Mae eich teimlo. Mae'n dweud. Dau wych yn hynny? A'n youtube. Mae'n holl o'u teimlo. Felly mae'r defnyddio i chi deilio. Yw'r bwysig, mae'n meddwl, Samson B Facebook, Samsefyn Instagram a mae'n meddwl, Instagram, amllun wrth gwrs mae'n meddwl. Mae'n meddwl i'r gallu ychydig, ac y gwrs y byddu yn ymlwg ar y ei fod ambas, sport, ychydig yn ymddi, ac yn ymddi'r baradau mai, mae'r buidol yn ymlaen. Bydd wedi sicrhau sarnio cyddiad hwnnw. Fellyóon dw i'w gwell y ffilm. Ie, I've got enough, we've got a film called Kirk for you. We think you're like that James as it goes. I've got to play that real-life one from the last bit where I was taking notes in Wandsworth that's going to be done and that'll be next year. But the book, I've been so slow with everything, my concentration. I've been dying to get this out in a way and see you, big man. I've watched a couple of your things and I was really... I like. Felly mae'n ddynch i ddim yn ddechrau i ddim yn ystod, James. Ond o'r ddechrau, mae'n gobeithio'n amddangos i fynd. Felly â ddim yn ddwych amdano ar gael, ac rwy'n gweithio i fynd gynhyrch gyd, rwy'n gweithio'r cerddorol a'r rhaid i'n gweithio'r gwaith, ond mae'n gweithio i ddim yn gweithio. Rwy'n gweithio'r cyffredin, cyfgald, ...OMF have some.... We'll have.... Remember, I know a lot of big names as well. ...They haven't done interviews yet. They will come for Yami. But basically it's that. Plus the... My writing. I'm narrating as well, my reading. But, I started doing my talks for the kids online and in a couple of schools. I've been doing that and I've been having offers since I come out. People messaging me saying this one. That one come to me. in Australia James that wants, if it wasn't for this, they want me over in a plane to give me a house to come a give the powerful talks over there so I'm enlightening myself, study and reading, get through fresh in my arbein. If you were just looking bright. I'm so relaxed and so cool. I'm up at the crack of dawn swinging down the highway at five but really there's complications as well as being murdered from my past James. I could be- this injury as good Wrth gwrs brod... Felly, mae'r形 i fynd yn gallu'n gobeithio. Felly fy gynllwch ar y boda. Mae'n gwneud i fynd y cendifoedd a'r schud mwy o'r mytwg ac nid dweud ond mae hynny'n gwneud. Ac mae'n yn ymwybod bod hollu'n gwneud. Felly, mae'n gwybod i'n gwneud i fynd i fynd yn built. Rwy'n wedi bod yn gwneud y cuo'r bleiddoedd, na'r cael yn gwneud i'r bleiddoedd. Fysau gan gyrtu ei brifau, cuckwch. Fyny'n ymwyboi ymddai i'n teimlo? The people I'm finding now want to be like them and and be the way that my spirit tells me not go with that that bit Cyngor, mae'n rhoi ychydig yn y cendifeth y ffiydiadau mewn ffordd, a'r rhan o'n ddweud am gydigion y bydd ymddangos. Mae'n ffordd o'r ffordd, ond yn rhoi, roedd y penderfyniad o'r gwylliant yma'r ffordd, fel y dyma'r Cyngor. Mae'n rhan o'n rhan o'r dweud, yn ffordd, a'r gwybod o'r ddechrau, yn fawr o'r amser, ac mae'n gwybod o'r pryd a'r gweithio, ydych chi'n rhan o'r cyfan, Mae'n bai salio oherwydd mae hwn贤 llion, dwi'n eistedd, yn ystyn wedi gyrdd wedi gwybod gyda am gyrdd i bara digan iawn, dwi yn ent recovered i chi arni aquíad nesaf. Nid oes gweld Full didntЧто yn meddwl yn cael ei gyzgrif mentalradd nesaf mwy ar y jechyd yn ni, ie fath yw 익 incomodaeth. A gallwch yn gysylltu. Yn ei g 과wyaf, charisma a tar iddo. Mae'n ei gael i ei gael eu ehidgedd sportio i faint autos papen a ehiddiwyd. it's all a lie, and the easier solutions are. Do it the right way, it might take longer, and you might not see your goals straight away and the results. But the same consistency and persistency that you're putting in to go up there, because what they do is, they tell you to be like me. You have to do this, do that. But they're not telling you that a lot of them die along, before they can even reach the stage that you're at. And that they're just going Going to get you to do it like they got me to do it, you know, because you want to be seen around them, because they have got the name, and you've got, and you want to be part of it and all that. But what does it all mean? In the end? What does it all mean? You do a bit of bird, you know him, you know him, you know him. But what about you, and how you really feel? Because there's a lot of lonely people out there. There's a lot of people that will grow up and the conditions at home are not really that good. Yn mynd i ddweud ffictimau o'r dda, dwi'n ddim yn ei ddweud y cymaint a dwi'n gwybod i'r dda i gynnwys i'ch gwybod i'r ddweud. Doedd yn ei ddweud eu ddweud. Mae rhan o'r pethau i'r ddweud o'r James yn gweithio'r ddweud a'r ddweud. Nid yn rhan o'r ei gweithio'r gweithio ar gynnwys i'r ddweud, ac mae'n rhan o'r dweud. Os mae'n gweithio i'r ddweud, ond mae'n ddweud, ond mae'n gweithio ar gynnwys i'r ddweud. Wel, yn y cyfrifoedd, fel hyn yn y sgol. Rydw i'n enw'n glwll i gyd yn llwyddo'n maen nhw, gallai yn gallu gwneud ar y dyma. Brindwyr, dros ames i'n gondol.