 Assalamualaikum my dear respected viewers and thank you for joining us for this special two-part episode dealing with the governance of Imam Ali, peace be upon him. The governance of Imam Ali represented a return to the governance of justice, which had been established by the messenger of Allah Muhammad, peace be upon him, but diverted from its course by the tyrants and oppressors. However, as the Prophet had famously said, Ali was with the truth and the truth is with Ali. And we have a great number of prophetic narrations similar to this. How then could the government of the truth be anything other than the governance of divine justice as well? Indeed, this is one of the fundamental things that separate a true Islamic society from all others before and after the advent of the Holy Qur'an. One of the most important aspects by which any society may be gauged is its justice. In the Holy Qur'an, Allah Almighty says in part of Surah Al-Hadeed, verse 25, certainly we have sent our messengers with manifest proofs and we sent down with them the book and the balance so that mankind may maintain justice. We see time and again in the examples of Imam Ali's blessed life, both during his temporal rule as well as before it. He was always the living embodiment of this concept of divine justice. Thus Imam Ali, as reported to have said, justice is the lifeblood of the law. First and foremost, we see that Imam Ali applied the strictest form of justice to himself and the way in which he abstained from material luxuries and other benefits in which many empower today and throughout history indulge. Thus, even when we examine his lifestyle which no amount of power could change, we find that he once remarked about his home furnishings, we had nothing but an untanned sheepskin upon which Fatima and I would sleep at night and upon which we would feed our camel by day. What ruler can we point to in the world since this time who lived by such high-handed principles? What kind of leader today truly leads by this sort of example? In this episode, we will, inshallah, be examining the example of leadership set by Imam Ali, peace be upon him, including the foundations he laid that others might follow his example in the future. Joining me in this episode is Dr. Hasan Abbas, an academic and a professor in a Washington D.C. based university. As-salamu alaykum, Dr. Hasan Abbas. Thank you very much. It is a distinct player for me to be here. It's a spiritual time and a spiritual city and I couldn't expect anything more. Thank you. It's a pleasure to have you, Dr. Abbas. Let's start with the first question here, Professor. Would you please provide us with a brief introduction about the theory of leadership and good governance? Certainly, the way the different political systems worked, especially in the post-World War II scenario, which we call the modern state, it is linked to the system of government and leadership is all about accountability. Leadership is all about in a representative system or democratic system. It means the leadership comes out of the people. People decide who are the leaders and leaders in turn are accountable to people. That's the somewhat ideal model. We have other states which are both more monarchical or which are more autocratic or dictatorial where some families or some individuals rule and in those cases the model is different. But in the modern sense, the most acceptable, popular, or legitimate system of government is where leadership is accountable and unstable to their people and the idea of state, which I want to mention very briefly, the idea of good governance is linked with the idea of the services that state provides, where the state provides institutions of justice, where state provides institutions for law enforcement, where state provides about resources for healthcare education. So any state which provides good justice, healthcare, education, a proper law and order system and criminal justice system, these states are seen as the ones where there is good governance. All those states where all these resources of health education are restricted, these are states which are elitist, which are maybe autocratic, only some tribes, some ethnic groups get benefit, there we, in international standards we would argue it's not good governance and wherever, where a majority of people get good resources, good support from the state, that is what the good governance is all about. Thank you Dr. Abbas, it seems that Islam has experienced different models of leadership and governments throughout its history. How do you consider the position of Amir al-Mu'mineen Ali ibn Abi Tanib and Islam's tradition of leadership and governance? The idea of leadership within Islam and of that of political system is a very critical question. I would argue the way Islam as a religion was different from other religions, let's say Judaism or Christianity was, that in Islam the prophet of Islam Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wa sallam had come up with two models. One was about individuals, about their relationship with God, about spirituality and another one was about a state, how government or state is run, his time in Medina especially after Muslim state was set up, the foundations of a state was set up, the way the prophet had taught others was, in terms of how Islamic state will provide services, whether these are religious or these are political or these are economic, that was the model. Then I will come to the model given by the caliphs and especially Azat al-Ali alaihi sallam. However, I must mention here that afterwards where major empires were established, for instance Safavids in Iran, Ottomans in Turkey, Mughals in South Asia, Fatimids in Egypt and in part of Africa, all these empires had different models, Abbasids and Umayyads had different models and we had seen some of the troubles which were provided by all these. So these were all different forms of government or different ways in which leaders let the government. The way Azat al-Ali alaihi sallam led his government and established I should say his government was in some ways very unique and very different, why? Because it was not family rule, it was very clearly mentioned, it was unlike what Umayyads did, what Abbasids did, what all the other main empires did because in all those cases there were either families or some strong tribes which were governing. And when you have a tribe that rules, it is the interests of that tribe that are predominant. If you are Ottoman and during in the Turkish era, all those who are the close extended family of the Ottomans will have first right in terms of education, in terms of any facilities that state provides. So where I would place Azat al-Ali alaihi sallam's government system is very different from all those which is exactly in line with what the Prophet of Islam had said, which had two principles. One, it was the ordinary people who elected and who requested Imam Ali, please come and take over. There is no other comparable example in the first four caliphs for example. I would argue all the four caliphs were very important, they were close to the Prophet of Islam. The Imam Ali was the only one because in other three cases either it was personal nomination, Azat Omar was nominated by Azat Abu Bakr. The third caliph was nominated by the second caliph, it was a personal choice, I am nominating somebody because I like him. Or in the first case it was a tribal decision, Azat Ali's case was the most popular case because the ordinary people said a lot has gone wrong in the state. We don't have justice, we don't have spirituality and they requested and begged Azat Ali, please come and take over the government. So that is number one, principle number one, Azat Ali became caliph not because of any favor from any tribe or not from a favor from a person who said please you are my friend and my relative, please come and take over. It was because people felt that they needed Imam Ali as the leader. Why they felt that that's my second question because his credentials were above everyone else. Everyone knew that he is the exact copy of the Prophet of Islam sallallahu alaihi wa sallam. In his morals, in his character, in his attributes, in every major way or every major feature of his personality, he was the exact reflection of the Prophet of Islam sallallahu alaihi wa sallam. That's why people trusted him, they trusted his judgment. These were the two most important features of Imam Ali. Yes, Professor. Imam Ali peace be upon him was both an educator and a practitioner. Do his insights and theoretical ideas on leadership and good governance correspond with what he's done as a governor and a political leader? I think this is a very important point for me to emphasize that Imam Ali alaihi sallam was on one hand not only a scholar and a great scholar and an educator but at the same time he was a great practitioner who believed in implementing what he meant and what he taught. Often in the modern world we have categorized these things that such and such person is a scholar. Often we mean well he cannot be a good political leader because he's a scholar or when we talk about a politician we say such a person is a prime minister or president, he's a very good politician, he understands how to implement things but he is not a religious scholar, he doesn't know. Imam Ali was the culmination of the excellence of these two ideas and Imam Ali had established that you cannot be a good leader unless you're a good scholar and you cannot be a good scholar unless you have the knowledge and the skills to implement what you are talking about. In terms of his knowledge I think two quotations are sufficient. One by the hadith of the Prophet of Islam sallallahu alaihi wa sallam saying, if you ever want to enter the valley of knowledge the gate is Ali. Imam Ali himself sitting on member and saying, please ask me before I am no more among you. And another of Imam Ali's quotations is, I know the ways of the skies and the heavens better than the ways of this world. So Imam Ali's knowledge is not only political or social, it is spiritual, it is divine in ways as well and all that he had gained his knowledge is directly attributable to the Prophet of Islam. He was the one which people often forget Muslims and I have travelled around the world and I asked this to many people and discussed this and I am often surprised how little knowledge is available about Imam Ali globally and I am not talking about any sectarian area I am saying globally. They don't understand mostly that Imam Ali his knowledge was greatest because he had spent the best time with the Prophet of Islam. His teacher was the Prophet of Islam and he was his most favourite student if you make all that. So Imam Ali's teachings as I mentioned were about all issues of religiosity but his political messaging or his knowledge about politics, all you need to do is read one book which is Nahjul Balaga and actually within Nahjul Balaga if you don't have enough time please read one letter to Malik Ibn Ashtar and I have done some work on that and I can tell you as a political scientist. Now I am talking about as a PhD in political studies and political science and that's what I teach and I am looking at all the works of modern political scientists about the political theories about the great philosophers of the West from Plato to Aristotle to Socrates to Ahab and Montesco and other great scholars. What Imam Ali had mentioned about political science about policy issues is also in many ways unmatched because the principles that he gave are the ones which have been talked to us by the great scholars in all various different traditions. For instance Imam Ali's central message was when it comes to policy issues was it is directed towards people. I have read Imam Ali's messages again and again and he's always concerned about the ordinary people. I'll give one example to Malik Ibn Ashtar. He was saying Malik Ibn Ashtar was appointed as the governor and Imam Ali said to him on some days you should invite the people in your office and tell all the government officials the bureaucracy that please go out of the room because maybe that the ordinary people have complaints against those bureaucrats and if they are scared what if I say something wrong about the police chief or the commissioner or whatever name you want to give them and they are scared and they don't say it. So Imam Ali said it is the well-being of the ordinary people which is the dearest to me. This was the principle of his policy. I'm just giving one example. I'll go to the other part of the question as a practitioner when he became the caliph, the fourth caliph of Islam and as the first Imam I would argue he implemented all that he had said over the years. During the time of 25 years of the first three caliphs it's a very important question Muslims at times totally forget that before after the time of the prophet of Islam and before the time of his caliph the first three caliphs times was about 25 years. What was Imam Ali doing? Where was he? Was he traveling? There are many actually cases of that we know now that he traveled around the world. There for instance my question to my audience is why people in Afghanistan there's a place called Mazar Sharif. There's a big shrine. All the Muslim majority of the Muslims believe that Imam Ali is buried in Najaf. I also believe in that. But there's some people who believe that Imam Ali is buried in Mazar Sharif. Why they think so? Who was there who's buried there? One interpretation is that Imam Ali had gone to Afghanistan. He had preached there during those 25 years before he became caliph, came back. But people were so much out of love for him that when Imam Ali left they said where is he gone? And they built a small place for him saying oh he died, here he is just because they wanted association with him. I travelled from the Pakistani mountains to the Afghanistan side and I was taken to a small mosque called Ali Masjid, Ali Mosque. It has a big stone which has a sign of a feat of Imam Ali. What is the story about it? Imam Ali had gone to that mosque. So what I'm saying is Imam Ali travelled around the world. If you look at all the great mystics and Sufis who as we know all the great mystics they believe that they get their inspiration from Imam Ali. What is the first message of the Sufia? Travel. So Imam Ali must have travelled a lot. The point I'm making that his knowledge was not purely academic from books and what he had learnt. It was through travelling. He met, he travelled around the world. He learnt different languages. He talked to people in different languages. Then he came back and became a caliph. When he became a caliph he had the wisdom that he had learnt from the Prophet of Islam. He had the wisdom that he had learnt through the first three caliphs times because frankly like first three caliphs were human beings they committed many mistakes. Imam Ali was constantly advising all the three caliphs. Whenever there was a second caliph who once said oh if Imam Ali was not there I would have been a dead man. Indeed because Imam Ali saved the three caliphs from committing many of the mistakes. The same is the way the third caliph Imam Ali had sent his own sons by saying please rescue him because he has committed mistakes and people are after him and we don't want people to blame us. So Imam Ali was acting as a practitioner even during the time of the first three caliphs. Whenever the judges in the times of those caliphs will commit mistakes everyone will call on Imam Ali please can you guide us what is the message. So when Imam Ali became the caliph then he implemented his ideas of justice, his ideas of equality, his ideas of the well-being of the ordinary people. In this sense he was a climax and a combination of an educator and a practitioner. Thank you for that professor. The commander of the faithful peace be upon him built the intellectual foundations of an ideal government for the future. What were its key elements? Another great question. I think the central principles I had previously as I had mentioned number one is that a leader has to be popular among the people. A leader cannot be enforced because if that would have been the case God would have appointed angels to be the leaders so that everyone is on the right path. God had to send 124,000 prophets because that was the time of teaching and when the Imamate began it was the time also of the implementation of some of those great messages. So Imam Ali the first message was well-being of the ordinary people and Imam Ali was always saying one of his first messages was he had said that I am on this seat because I am answerable to the people. This is I am paraphrasing what Imam Ali had said I am more concerned about the plight of the ordinary person. For example I will give you an example after he became caliph he went out and he saw a Christian person who was being who was in rags and who was in a very old and he was not in a good position and he was begging people for food. Imam Ali stopped him. Imam Ali called all the people who were there and said so this person when he was young you used him as a laborer you utilize his services now that he is old and he cannot earn for himself. You have left him to beg he said no state will provide everything to every person. Another example some very important people came to Imam Ali when he was a caliph these I will not name them these were some people who are very close to the third caliph and they came and said Imam Ali we have come to you to ask our right you are giving everyone their right and so we have our own right. Imam Ali said what? They said we used to receive stipends our onrarium and where is that Imam Ali at that time switched off there was a candle lit he put it off and used another one and they said why are you doing it he said because this candle is being paid for by the state finances. You have asked me a personal question you have a personal issue because you are receiving special stipends so you are here to talk to me about a personal issue I cannot use the candle that is given by the state. So then Imam Ali explained to them well you have no right to get that stipend because you were getting it as a part of a certain powerful tribe for me everyone is equal I will give you money the same amount which I can give to any poor person on the road so I don't have it for everyone at this time so please thank you very much don't ever come back to me with that question that was a second principle no one is above the law everyone will commit a crime in some cases Imam Ali as a caliph went to the court for witnesses so it is about people about accountability it is about the justice system and third and most important thing Imam Ali even at that time and you had talked about the model the model was that the officials of the government have to be the most honest and competent it is not that I if I am Hashemi I give recruitment to every Hashemi who is living in that city and this is a message for today this is a message for Iraq this is a message for Iran this is a message for Saudi Arabia they have to look in within the Muslim states of Bahrain or every Muslim country are you giving jobs only to the people who are from your tribe or from your sect or from the political opinion that you believe in no when you are leading you are uncivil and responsible for everyone every ethnic group every tribe that is the message of Imam Ali and he had shown it and that's why I said his message of governance is very very relevant to the present times even more to the this time than to his time professor I'm sure our dear viewers are curious to know this next question the answer to this next question what are the most important elements of Amir al-Muminin's ideas of economic affairs there are four or five very important points and I'll briefly look at my notes here as well I have five examples to give you because often people think that Imam Ali and other imams all that they were talking about was only about religion or only about politics no they were as much interested in the economic well-being and taxation system taxation we often think is a modern idea in many states for example I live in United States and I can tell you that I can do anything but if I'm not going to pay my taxes whatever I'm doing I'm a great scholar maybe I'm a member of the parliament if I'm not paying my taxes I can land in jail and when I see the modern taxation system I see this is and I read Najul Balakha I find that all this modern taxation system the principles of this system were actually given by Imam Ali so five examples number one some there was a small war so when people came back from that war it was this was the time of Second Caliph and they had said the Second Caliph said oh we have won over many lands let's distribute those new lands into army generals because they are the ones who won that and they called Imam Ali and Imam Ali said don't do that ever Imam Ali said give the land to the farmers because if you will start giving land to the army they will start fighting to get more land so that they get more land smart idea he was saying we need more land because to have more agricultural produce farmers are the ones who can create more vegetables who can have more of the crops so this is the right of the farmers very smart thinking it was not religious it was not political it was purely economic secondly Imam had said that in each his quotation that is my second example is about trade and industry he specifically advised administrators that they should live in major towns and cities now this is also very important thing because major towns were the hubs of economic activity so Imam Ali wanted all the smart in this all the smart businessmen to move to major hubs of economic activity this again is not normally mentioned in many cases a third example is about how Imam Ali advised his people to deal with taxpayers Imam Ali had said to his officials that when you go to ask for taxes just knock at the door of a person request them to go out don't question them about their taxes outside their homes take them away from their homes so that their people don't get scared that oh the state functionaries have come and they are trying to to misbehave Imam Ali said to the tax collectors do not touch the property of Muslims or non-Muslims you can request them for their tax if they don't pay on the first Ukrainian be lenient and just don't argue with them I'm amazed at the details of what a tax collector should do within Imam Ali's statements one other issue that Imam Ali was very specific about and this is directly linked to economy is about tax collection and use of zakat and this the prophet of Islam sallallahu alaihi wa sallam had also said that the zakat if everyone gives zakat then there is no need and there is no imbalance in society because those who are rich and wealthy are giving their share for so that those who do not have those opportunities also get basic necessities of life so it is not like in the modern day some people have houses with which are ten floors and others have no roof to sleep under and they are sleeping outside on the road this inequality is directly opposed to the message of Islam and that was the economic side of messaging there has to be yes there will be some houses which will be better than the others but for some people to have luxurious life and for the others to be on the streets this is directly contradicts the message of Islam and that's what Imam Ali had also specifically mentioned one other quotation that I just want to mention is about hoarding and black marketing and Imam Ali they were certain people linked with agriculture who would hoard large amounts of food items and would keep those so that the prices go up and they produce those in the market this was strictly forbidden during the times of Imam Ali these were just some of the examples to explain that Imam Ali was not his message was not only about religious issues it has very important economic implications as well. Thank you so much for that Dr. Hassan Abbas now for the last question it seems that Imam Ali's system of leadership and good governance is based on ideas about the essence of the government as well as the personality of the governors. How does the father of the Imams and Miram Muminin peace be upon him connect these two criteria to each other. Imam Ali had done this by selecting those people at governors who had the best reputation as honest and the examples are very clear for example about Maavir most of the problems that Islam faced and including of course the great tragedy of Karbala by Yazid we have to go a little bit back and see who had appointed Yazid Maavir who had appointed Maavir one of the esteemed Caliphs and why was he appointed because he was a very important political leader Imam Ali had challenged the first thing he did was to challenge Maavir by saying you are not the legitimate Caliph or governor because you are using this office of the governor for your own personal prestige for accumulating wealth and expanding your own sphere of influence so Imam Ali's concept of governance was linked to honest and capable people and there was a third criterion the third criterion was knowledge unless you are scholarly or unless you are educated you cannot be a good governor and I will close this point with one great quotation of Imam Ali who somebody had said to him what is the qualification to become a leader and Imam Ali said to him service to humanity prepares you for a leadership role he never said service to Muslims service to the tribe of Hashemite service to the people of Medina he said service to humanity if you are good to human beings and you are scholarly then you are eligible to be a good and important leader. Thank you so much for your information on those questions Dr. Hasan Abbas we thank you so much and we look forward to see you in the next episode. Thank you so much it's a great player and honor and I wish the best of luck to Imam Hussein TV. Dear respective viewers we have reached the end of the first episode of the governance of Imam Ali Peace be upon him here on current events. We wish to see you in the second episode which we will discuss in depth the governance of the commander of the faithful. We thank you dear viewers for watching and we thank our dear guest Dr. Hasan Abbas for joining us. Wassalamu alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh.