 How services and design are perceived in a country has a great impact on how service design is Practiced because every country has its own nuances and characteristics Learning about these differences can be a great source of inspiration for your own practice That's why in this video, we're going to explore service design in China Here's the guest for this episode. Let the show begin. Hi guys, this is a swan This is service line show episode 158 Hi, my name is Mark van Tijn and welcome back to the service design show on this show We explore what's beneath the surface of service design What are those hidden things that make the difference between success and failure all to help you? Design great services that have a positive impact on people business and our planet over the years I've been approached by many service design professionals from China We even launched the official Xiaohangshu service design show channel to give more people access to these interviews So that definitely seems to be growing interest in the practice But I always found it difficult to get a good sense of how service design is evolving in China And I was really curious to learn more about what's going on So I was lucky to get connected to Ji Hangxiong the guest in this episode who has witnessed the evolution up Close and even helped to shape it having grown up in China and now living in San Francisco Ji Xuan is in a great position to share with us the differences and similarities So at the end of this episode, you'll know what the state is of service design in China Which services are being designed and which ones aren't and where the practice is heading to in the next couple of years I learned a ton from the conversation with Ji Xuan and I hope you will as well If you enjoy conversations like this that help to expand your horizon and grow as a service design professional Make sure you subscribe to the channel if you haven't done so already as we bring a new video like this every week or so That about wraps it up for the intro now It's time to sit back relax and enjoy the conversation with Ji Xuan. Welcome to the show Ji Xuan Hi, hi Mark. How's it going? It's going awesome. It's pretty warm in the Netherlands But I heard that it's warm in other areas of the world as well. We're managing Just one we're going to talk about the topic which hasn't been covered on the show a lot Unfortunately, and I wish it was covered more often. So hopefully this will be sort of a first first episode You're based in the States currently, but that's not your background, but maybe you can share a bit more about What you do today and then we'll get to what you've been doing in the past in a moment. Oh Cool. So my name is a Schwann. So I actually my background is In from China. I moved to the US about eight years nine years ago I was leading the design practice out there in China Serve a company called fireworks. It's global Technological and design consultancy company. So we're probably first company back in China like One of the first like doing the service design design thinking design consultancy out there so right now I'm based in San Francisco I Basically do a lot of a project solving complex problems for stakeholders like high-level executives for beauty strategy and tech Data design everything. So that's pretty my background Yeah, we could have dived into so many different topics with you, but eventually I Was a bit selfish and I picked the topic of discussing service design in China because I think that's the thing Did you sort of have a unique perspective on an unique experience with but we could have picked many other topics with your experience? Before we dive into that We always do a lightning round five questions to get to know you a bit better And your cause to answer them as quickly as possible just the first thing that comes to your mind. Are you ready? Yeah, that's all right What did you want to become when you were a kid? Oh? I want to be Ambassadors want to go to other countries and representing my nations Was my go I didn't work out There's there are still time Next question is if you could work from anywhere in the world, where would you like to work from? Well, it doesn't really matter to be honest like travel a lot across countries So I don't have a preference like anywhere. I can have a my laptop even in the launch in the airport I can work very enough. Yes, I don't have a lot of preference Next question is also very interesting. I'd love to hear this one. What was your very first job on my first job Oh interesting. So I was working for a cheap company. So in Makes it it was Intel. So I was managing their equipment in they in the Laboratory so I'm managing the equipment for preparing some courses. They're doing courses That's my first job. I was moving all the devices around. So that's It's about 15 or 18 years ago Ah, cool, you have an interesting background for sure next question is about books I'm I don't know if you're an avid reader or not, but Which book or books are you reading at this moment? If any? So I'm reading the book Talking about the funders the American funders How they're 15 different stories. They're how they are Arguing of fighting each other, but building the nation. So They're basically it's a big to me as a big a service design project to design a country the new country in the new continent, right? So that was fascinating Okay, no American funders. Yeah, well, I will add a link to that and the fifth or final question that I always ask is Do you remember the very first time you heard about service design? Well, yeah, that was backing I think is the back in 2006 or something so I was I do a lot of things a No, 20. I think a 2007 like 07 something. I was doing a lot of things around the reading a lot of things about Design thinking so every sign just one popping to my Reading There is a community called a service design network in Europe. So I was like following them at the moment I there was another thing back in China, but you know, that was the first time I heard about this term service line And you still have some articles. I think online on When when you were sort of exploring sharing your thoughts on service design, right? Yeah, so I wrote us. I wrote a blog round the block and yeah, people were reading my blocks So service I'm definitely was one of my topic Yeah, that's yeah so Let's dig into the topic of today and We'll see how this conversation goes because we don't have a really fixed structural explore together Which areas are interesting to share? Service design in China, that's the thing. We're going to try to unpack see what's going on try to demystify it at least for me a bit more but before we do that or to better understand that could you share a bit about How did you get into the design space in China? Like how did you get in the service design back then? Yeah So I started doing the design when I was seeing I think high school I was like when I had a first like computer. I was Remember I still use the publisher as a software and design book cover and also CD album covers But that's where it's just like one on my hobby. I love like doing the layout in fonds that kind of stuff then Then I I started the job like building Assistants like that's that's my first job Even I was like to say I'm running all the moving those the equipment in the laboratory, but I have a site Projects which is building a system. So to running, you know to really managing the course the course well for that company the cheap company so I I Got a chance to do something like from Working from the the coding and also designing everything together to help my my boss and my Client I also have a lot of site projects going on I make some money and a pocket money by doing all the freelancer work But I was not only doing the design. I also do coding everything. So it's more like end-to-end I joined the company called sourx. That was only the one year after I graduated But at a moment sourx was a technology company He was that was the company like doing a lot of agile work a software development frame framework. I Was the first like kind of designer background Hired back in 2008 So I introduced a lot to practice into the company such as using PowerPoint to do the prototyping with the client So I showed the interface and we're building a lot of software down there You know when when I was there like 20, I think oh eight Then a few years after I started to create a design practice or design business in sourx That was a global thing. So we're doing a lot of different country will have a lead to do that, right? So I was leading that by doing that. I need to do a lot of like conference talk I need to start writing blocks hiring people. That's where I that's how I Like hire those people's building a team So when you want to build a customer is a consultancy company So as a consultant is a company you need have some IP Intelligent properties, right? So you need to understand like where you can build a service So service design is definitely one thing because we're dealing with a lot of complex technology Design problems for a customer. So I use service as a starting point and also design thinking everything Agile UX was one of the topics as well So that's how I you know start building the services around those I we call it offerings But service on definitely one of them, right? So that's how I started design journey and building a team. I Was head of design there. So that's that's how I started. Hmm. How was it? Back then because like you said there wasn't Maybe people were doing it, but apparently there wasn't a lot of Information about it or you had to get your information from other sources or the countries How how how was it back then? It's not even that long ago. I guess, right? So yeah, there is a some history, right? If you look at service design Service I introduced as was introduced as the marketing tool, right? So that was I think back in 1982 So resigned is introduced, you know by a I think it's European market European Journal of marketing or marketing journal Talking about service not as a term as a practice to for marketers to understand their They're the target company or you know market entities. Well, right? It's not never be a It's you know, it's never be in the innovation to at the very beginning then you have like bridge a bridge a maker build up those SD SD and social other services network service I network foundation like the beauty of the community thing, right? That's what's like 2004, right? Then she actually started a lot of project backing, you know in Germany So serving telco company banking and also a city planning So those are three big like scenario use cases the service line became a thing, right? So back in China if you compare this and China a little bit different like also like as a practice People really because because you have the pioneers, you know from those design consultants company brought those good Frameworks and concept to China people are doing this. I was like running workshop You know, I think it's 15 times of publicly every year. So there are a lot of people interest people calm But I would say there's a little bit different to compare What's going on in the Europe and also US versus China if you look at the three topic that three use cases banking and also the telco and also the social planning Or city planning, right? They're really complex and also it's service. They're all service oriented industry But in China, there is a special case Those banking a telco stay on you don't have enough the private sector to do more innovation There is more control planning, you know top-down approach not like bottom up, right? The that's that's one second one is think about the city planning So China the different political system, you don't have a lot of like a choice to Participate into the city planning, right? So and also like that was like I remember 20 before in between the 20 oh 2010 and also 20 to 2015 that was a period of time in Shanghai for example, there are a lot of NGOs They're doing a lot of like social innovation kind of stuff That was really before 2015 service. I was quite a good thing because helping you know I still remember we were doing the senior care like kind of innovation there. There are a lot of NGOs There right, but I think after 2015 because like geopolitical, you know reason, you know the country limiting the NGO a little bit So that's where the social innovation piece is is going down a little bit That's why if you understand the China Environment is a little bit different the three big use cases are not Pretty much the thing there, right? But Service line is still a thing. It's it's good like people were using that But driving by different forces, you know in the europe and us service lines really driving by community um the Universities and also the consultancy companies Because that's a framework that's read ip and people using that to help Basically it's offering that you're making money from it, right? But China is a little bit different The design in China Most of cases that's one thing you need on step china china design is driven by not the consultancy company not the You know the the education system. It's by those top giant Internet company we're talking about tensen or talking about it. Baba. We're talking about tiktok But all those companies they have the scale To create something Fundamentally change how people live in china and also they're absorbing They're sucking all the good designer to join their company But that's very different like when I moved to the us. I see here You have great opportunity as a designer joining a consultancy company. There is a There is a big reason why you want to join the consultancy company The design is never like driven by those big giant Like I don't I don't see it maybe like google for example like material design. It's just like very little thing you're not really Drive the the the social agenda here the impact is very different But china is different china. You have alibaba. You have those big company big names. They are hiring The designer They're putting a lot of money to hire those designers a lot of design conference right now Was ran by the big companies Not really the community. You don't see any design conference like grass root it Community based it's all ran by those Big companies. So that's a situation that's you see this design service design is a little bit different Because those big giant companies running those agenda. So That definitely helps to understand a bit more about what's going on in our preparation for this call you also mentioned like if we want to get into understanding service design in china, we basically have to sort of So double click on on service and on design. So maybe we can do that a bit more like How do you feel what is the perspective on services that you see in quote-unquote the west versus how services are perceived in china I think that also plays an important part how service design is practiced I think this is a big topic because to me like um Design or service To me is is part of the social the social system. It just It's part of it. It's really hard to articulate and to describe it When you do not have a lot of knowledge to understand The different aspects of how the society is running There is economical side of economical side of saying there is a cultural side of thing historical side of thing a lot of thing Is working are working together to determine there is a service out there people accept to it, right? So that's why while I'm living in the u.s. Is see for example labor cost is really re-expansive Right now I'm running this new flooring project. I install a new floor I realize the floor is like 20k, but you spend like 25k for the laboring Right to install it That's never be a case in china. So economical model was very different um So that's how when you understand china you have to go deep a little bit to understand their There are so many aspects to define a service Maybe you think it's a great service in the u.s. Or europe. It's not the good case in china. So I would say my oh my challenges my argument is really Doesn't really matter like to because people are talking about like we should learn in between the china and the rest of the world but to me it's I don't think we need to learn that's that's the thing like because because there are a lot to learn You need to learn the rest of the other thing rather than this service the service as a result Of all the aspect working together to create something right you don't know You don't need to learn the result. You learn why What's going on around us like try to learn how people like family Think about the family think about the culture history There are a lot of other things The least thing the last thing you want to learn is service Because you cannot copy those service You know, I Still remembered like a few years back. I was in china running some project It's very interesting. I was selling. I was building a very complex system for selling luxury cars right Then I realized every time I went to the company the client company In front of the building you you see those like people or It's a lot of riders. They're sending all the you know, the food and also packages delivery stuff, right Every morning the four out three hours they're playing games the cars and playing games That is phenomenal like will I Remember that situation. I was like, oh god. They're there. It's a it's a social events A lot of the rider because in the morning you don't have a lot of orders So the people just you know taking the the free time like playing games and having some chatting That's a social event that nuances. You don't really have that back in the us But behind that is the big service line. It's It's delivering service. It's delivering experience There's a come a convenience experience like how people are keep saying like china have a gray like experience of like taking orders super fast, but that's the That's something like this your convenience is sacrificing people's You know because people can spend time like doing this like help you like they're sacrificing that the labors I would say that the people they're real people They have the different need. They're socialing. They're doing the social they're They have family so there are a bunch of things going on there. So back to my point The service itself is you never learn the service Because service is this result You you probably want to learn the other aspect those nuances nuances those common similarities those Stories around the service. So that's really like people keep saying like this one What's your point of you know china learning Between the china and also west I keep saying like you don't learn service service. There's nothing you don't need to learn you learn Those aspects the stories around the service because that how service became a service because those different other things are surrounding the service itself But that that's my really point, but you don't need to learn you don't I don't think you can learn or you Yeah, well well get into that a bit more. I think there are I'm curious to learn more about that about learning and I totally get that services are the result of the needs and of the context and of the heritage like But the thing is I I definitely can imagine that there are different Generic needs maybe that people have around services that flow from culture Um, but I also want to double click on on that design X aspect of service designs So maybe once again, just share your thoughts on how you feel design is perceived in China and also maybe like where is it coming from? How has it evolved and how does that compare to How we know it here in the west Design in China is really practical. It works. It works. It doesn't work people just like kill it and do another one Right, so I would say comparing to the us and other countries. I would say the prototyping costs is much much cheaper um, you can people are I would say like people not the cost things like people don't care too much about the cost in terms of the people not arguing for Is usually in the us you need design thinking to argue to gather people together to make decisions There is a lot long process of making decisions, right? Back in China is a little bit everyone is fast everything everyone is fast Everything is fast. It's make decision is making super fast because When you have the young generations like my age almost like 40 then you have the the key population of that age um, because making decision decision maker so they can take risk so risk When you have a generation like who can take a lot of risk When you design something you tend to make quicker decision now create maybe cost-wise is the process cost is much when you were small So in that case you don't care too much about the approach You know, China had this practical thinking like from Den Xiaoping's talking about No matter is a white cat or a black cat like will you catch a mouse? That's uh, it doesn't matter, right? so China is I see people are accepting those concepts and frameworks from the outside pretty open in the book They want to learn new things, but also They are a bending thing a lot They don't have a long-term hobby or interest into one thing and keep doing that They're absorbing so many different things to create their own methodology with just no methodology. They just do it So that's one fascinating aspect I learned from my Chinese new colleagues and also client They are open to new learn new thing, but they don't stick to it They don't like say I need this process do this because I love the framework They say no, you know, we do it. We don't do it. It doesn't matter like, you know, if it works, it works, right? So that's really design side of thing that China is way more like practical than other country. That's my observation Because they can definitely create something because they have the scale Like for example, I was living in the condo like back in China in Beijing. There are 50 50,000 people in the one community 50,000 people you can do a lot of testing with 50,000 people living one because that's the difference Like you have big population They're cluttered into one space. You can do a lot of innovation with them So testing is never be a big problem. So cost is lower. The process causes definitely low So really practical. Yeah Yeah, really practical really fast and I'm sort of trying to reflect at the same time Uh, what does that mean for the design process? And to be honest, like you said, we don't On the one hand, we don't care about the design process. We care about the outcomes and the results that it brings And if we can do it faster, yeah, there is a yeah So there is a good thing a bad thing the good thing is Everyone is focusing on outcome focus on result They're very or result oriented. You know, I want to do this. I want this number. I get this number Regardless, regardless of the approach. It doesn't matter, right? But the bad thing is I don't think backing because because I I keep remembering like try to think about in What happened in the last like 10 years is nothing really from there To come up to contribute to the community in terms of theory framework. Nobody's we're talking about because people do not have time to think about Practices think about framework think about methodology. What's useful. What's not people do not have time to stay away and think about rethink about the practice so That's my really the bad thing I see from china, which is I blame china to Not having people thinking about those framework and practice and to contribute the design come community globally because as a as a community you need those things new things come to You create a framework of practice to help the community design community to grow So that's something like I see there is a bad thing good thing. There are too rush to Do some intelligence I share outside the world to to the outside world So so that's that's good and bad thing. That's that's yeah, that's interesting because yeah, I wrote down. It's probably a lot of things Short-term oriented and when you say it's I don't I don't see anything from the last 10 years. That's I don't want that that's really a shame like you want to You want to have something that you can build upon that's something that can grow something that sort of surpasses maybe even generations like I don't know classics And that's the thing that you see is missing there people don't have time When I say that I said it was a bad thing There was a good thing after the bad thing you have a good thing a bad thing but from the bad thing You have another good thing which is It to me. I think this is what talk about digital digital is about winners takes all right Once you win you always have people to help you create Practice to help you like that's where I because even I challenge the China doesn't have the the thing to you The output to the world but one day if China wins, you know people Will create a framework for China? So that's it doesn't really matter like that's really my thinking because In the five years 10 years scale. It's a bad thing. It's you know, nothing happened not because so when I look at those The industry sharing those you know the design conference. I don't see a good topic right But maybe after five years 10 years there's a Not a pure time like China because you need time for China to Speed up because we think about the europe europe European community we're talking about like 30 or 40 years 50 years of history of applied You know a design right? it's it's it's never be a thing like in China like 15 years ago, right? So we still have time yeah, again this is What I say, oh my point here is really the The situation in China is because you have tech you tech giants You have alibaba do as like tens and those giant company They don't have an obligation to create a framework of practice You know, usually those things are driving by university and consultancies Right, but those two things are not well developed in China. So Maybe that requires another 15 years to create a Driving power from the education and consultancy Assaultancies then you're gonna have something like it's most of the innovation framework is really from Europe I don't even see something here in back in the u.s. I don't see a good frameworks so When you say that Innovation and design is driven or eaten by these tech giants and their goal is to move fast and the winner takes it all like totally get that if you look at the at the Day-to-day services people use in China And I can add that like It's huge, of course services are everywhere How who who is taking care of them like it are do people care like is there somebody who's Is there a movement that is interested in improving? Like you may be said healthcare or banking while banking is regular sort of state regulated yeah, so What's the take on that like who who is looking at the all the other services that aren't maybe tech driven Or maybe it's every day service tech driven. I don't know my argument is really it's only two industries A lot of like private sectors and internet giants can do Not everyone likes even the financial services is it's sort of highly regulated There are some issues there out there There are two industries only the entertainment and also the including social gaming everything that's that's part Another one is commerce everything about commerce. So If you think about the service design like maturity If country if you think because I keep thinking thinking about the five things about the five peders of the service line Like how you define the maturity of the service line in the in the one society commerce entertainment slash lifestyle and also the house care financial services and also social innovation the government side of thing So china is super advanced in the first one and two entertainment lifestyle And also the commerce and they're really like connecting Between each other so a lot of like good innovation in this space how you create because even like right now if you look at the In the u.s Social and shopping are not really together Not really but in china. It's highly connected you have The the internet celebrities they're selling product. You don't see that thing in china in the u.s Even you're I don't think there is big thing like it's still like separated But china because there's two things social and also commerce driving by Tencent and tiktok and also alibaba and jd They're driving agenda driving the movement of this two space two spaces alibaba was trying to create a connection between this commerce and finance Financial services because but it kind of a failed or you know postponed I don't know because finance services highly regulated if you write if you read the news There is a thing right so in that case the rest of the three The You know the city planning social innovation I think healthcare and also the financial services Are not really moving so fast Because the driving forces you don't see a big driving force behind that like maybe financial services you have big bank You know they're for a long time if you don't have a china merchant bank They're buying our service for a long time. So they're doing a lot of social innovation and design design Service design activities out there are a lot of things there But you don't see a big driving force of the three Because in the u.s. Either you have community you have consulting company changing the game. You also have You know those big private companies driving the changes like Like douish bank for example there in singapore The dbs they're driving those changes But then because in china there are a lot of state-owned territories It's hard But I would say like the other two super fast like super crazy if you go there you can you you will be Overwhelmed like to see How deep those two things are connected like entertainment and also commerce people spend time, you know in those things Right That's why you see those companies like going abroad like to think about tick tock and also the shing shing is another like big commerce platform From china So that's why you see the two things come out. Yeah from those two. Yeah the first two Yeah, so like you said at the start it's really about understanding the culture like which services can even be sort of influence and where you can Help and make progress and try things the other thing I was curious about then. I don't know how much you still have site on that but are young students in china Interested in pursuing design like is design Growing in the education space. Do you know anything about that? Oh so fast. I think it's like It's I was when I was hiring my team back in 20 2009 or something 2010 I realized the universe is a great place to hire So I actually build a lot of good relationship with the different university in chinghua or in China media University There that's when you see those those universities are building new courses Talking about service design talking about design thinking that's Is if you calculate It's been 10 10 years. So that means the first graduate From that subject right now is already like five years to six year working experience, right? I definitely see a good Very it's growing trend like the designs of designers are Also, like design education is growing up super fast. You see those, you know, the university opening new courses Example like 15 years ago. There is no course called like even interaction design There's no subject like that right now. You have a lot of like Horses you have the subjects talking about design. That's one thing second thing is The graduate the students. I think It's growing also a phenomenal in the various phenomenal speed. I see Really good resume every year from, you know, either students like Going with other countries and come back. The resume is really good um, so I think The education system is growing and also it's building out the foundation to because to me the education system is is Is a machine to create a new graduate new New employee the laborers to the to the community to the industry So in that to that and I think is growing and also I think the designers sees that's right also, I think thing I argue like service design sometime is for the design student to To start but maybe it takes because that's argument I said this to my, you know, the new hire. I said like even you learn the service design at the university But you probably do service design of 10 years after You joined the company you joined you started the job because service is about solving complex problems. It's solve it's about co-creating Value across the stakeholders But if you are at the very bottom doing the hands-on stuff, you don't have an opportunity to do that kind of design so Lower your Acceptation like even you learn a lot of things about service design good approach, but you probably need another 10 years It really extremes the service line Right, so but people are again like back to the point Your question. Yes. Yeah, people are so interested in those topics It's adding value to resume as well um, when you hire you hire people Is I when I have hire I always want my the the graduate to Present a good story tell a good story about their design if something related to service design It's big plus one Because you are solving you know the the problem in the reality You're solving real life problem and complex problem. You understand those nuances from the social aspects Which is adding the point to your resume So that's reason why there is an economical Driver behind that to learn service line as well That's a good thing and I I know that the community is growing there and that's there's also one of the reasons I'm so interested in Speaking to more people who sort of understand to see what's going on there because Like you said, although it's not captured yet. Maybe to the degree that we're Capturing it over here. There are smart people. They're doing smart things. We just need to sort of service them The other question I'm curious about is sort of What's next? What do you see happening in the near future? Like you said, it's dominated by the tech giants like other services are highly regulated, which is hard to sort of Let service down lose on them. There are students are from the supply side that thing is growing Like how is this going to evolve over the next few years? So I will say everything you want to Focuss the future you you basically focus how china as a economy Grows in the next like 10 years, right? From like I was born in 1982 But from 1982 to now the wealth in china increased about 77 77 times That's a huge change, right? But in the next like 20 years Do I do we still have that scale of change? I don't know right But china still have a lot of potential you still have the Third tiers or fourth tier even fifth tiers of cities So to me, I will say In the 15 years Time scale, I don't see a big change in in this first year cities Like Shanghai or Beijing or Shenzhen. So those are modern cities. You don't really see big difference I don't think they're they're a big difference the real big differences in those cities I think the average GDP is less than a thousand dollars per year Those cities will have a lot of changes So the design changes the service will go to those cities How people behave today in those first tier city will go to those third or fourth the fifth Europe cities So that's the change So not really the first tier city. You don't see a lot of changes. I don't think And also the country the power There is a We call it common. We call it like a you know getting which will be be housing together That's really from the top, right? So they also want to drive this to increase the life quality economical, you know income for those On the third or even the fourth or fifth cities So the big change will be there but not really in the first tier city because we're We're good enough nothing to complain. I don't think that we should complain So that's really my point of view on if you ask a change in 15 years So the change was just if you want to do something in China like design something Go to the third of force in fifth cities fifth cities the tier cities try to Use what you learn from the first cities first tier city and migrate those things to To me the China will be the very similar to the u.s every city Very similar. So that's when I compare europe is different How I wouldn't europe is different different world. I would say China and the u.s. currently similar very practical They're That's but there's no offense like there are two countries only two countries work hard It's China and the u.s. I think the china the americans working very hard. So that's really My argument china one day the living style will be like the u.s I don't think there's a lot of elegance side of things like you see the fancy stuff They don't see a lot of fancy stuff in the in the u.s same thing in china because That's that how it works So I love the practical side of you know My people and also I love the practical side of the american people They don't care about the fancy brand and that kind of stuff So that's that's why my forecast you know in 15 years And it would be like to the u.s. You know a lot of shopping malls. So it's it's boring, but It's yeah, it's super interesting. Did you say like some cities are quote-unquote done like Yeah, they're done, but they're done. There are tons of other cities where they're Yeah, they're going through that growth phase still. Yeah, and don't get me wrong that other cities We're talking about the 10 million people 15 million people a million people. There's a lot of opportunity out there Super yeah, and and they will benefit from having that design experience that design Skills mindset that's sort of like you mentioned the first generation cities sort of lacked but they turned out okay But the other cities will sort of be able to build upon A more advanced design knowledge and practice to me the first 20 years from 20 2000 to now like 2022 First like 20 years. It's about migrating the design the services from the europe from the us to the first tier or even second tier of city But next movement there is nothing to migrate from the us or europe to the first year shanghai if you go to shanghai This is like ripping kind of the city That's no difference But there is a big movement from the first tier cities all the services all the way is working How people Leave We'll go to the third or fourth fifth tier cities. That will be the next of 20 years Not really the first year city. That's it end game I'm deciding there's no opportunity there's some opportunity But it's very limited area because there is nothing to learn There were not much thing to learn the migrate from the the western countries if Somebody approaches you with this question, I don't know how often you get this question like If there's one thing I should know about service design in china What is it like maybe what's one thing you hope people will take away from this conversation and remember about service design in china It's very okay. I don't So I will just like why you want to know right? I'll ask a new Counter question like why you want to know about the service line in china? Because my argument is really when you Because I don't like people to say Oh, because you're doing service design You're you're different like because I the one thing I hate to do Without me my company. I wouldn't call a role a service designer Like somehow create like a privilege For a role to say I'm designing service. Oh, you're designing product or application. I you're that I don't you're not fancy enough I'm fancy So when people want to ask, okay, what do you how do we learn about service in china? I'll be a little bit hesitant to answer even that question like do you What do you know? What do you mean like why you want to know because china any practice I said like china is very practical place It's just a method. It's just a practice. It doesn't really matter like people Building design like a building new service designing service It doesn't matter you you do this by You know in somebody's head or you or or collaborating with different stakeholders or using Or terminology called service. It doesn't really matter, right? So So I would say like better question will be how do you because I would say like, okay service. I have no comment Like, you know, it's just it's a thing um, it's a it's a movement but Comparing to the other social movements. It's nothing It's work because china everything is moving so fast So you because because in the europe the western country is a little different every simple smaller thing you call a movement But in china it's different. It's not movement. It's It's typhoon. It's just not me. It's it's different. It's not movement it's That's that's different like china That's because china's whole logics is about social movement. It's about social experiment china itself is was originated as A social move experiment. It's about experimenting new alternative way of how the human being is like doing things and Living there in this world is china. It's it it is the alternative Apparently to other countries. It's it's working, right? Then if you ask this Movement like socially also like a service line. It's not a movement. It's just a thing Comparity other movement nothing but I think it's still good thing people are learning it people it's a it's a good topic and people are doing that But if you ask me what's the situation out there, I'll I'll say it's not a movement because compare It's not because it is not a movement. It's come comparing to other things. It's it's just small I Yeah Thanks, and the way I sort of try to wrap my head around this conversation is that It's there. It's alive. It's growing It's way less formalized because there is no time to formalize things are changing That things are changing and moving all the time and sort of it feels like it's A lot of things are moving and happening at the same time and At some point where things sort of crystallize and maybe When they do slow down there will be more time to Yeah to formalize it and and See what actually has emerged But now it's like there's a lot of dust and things are happening people are at work and don't really care about Frameworks what else there is a there is a oh saying in china We call it like you don't get fish in a clear water You only you only get fish in the muddy water the clear water the fish are gone And there's a lot of muddy water right now That's a lot of muddy water right there's a lot of muddy water right now So that's why the service line is not a thing is because there's a muddy water like yeah You just like catch all the fishes. Yeah fish. Maybe that's a good title for this episode Just one I want to thank you for sort of sharing your thoughts and I'm I have a lot more questions, but for now, let's keep it at this super interesting Just for me to demystify and try to better understand have more awareness like Brush up that blind spot that I that I have around what's going on in other areas of the world I hope that this topic can be covered more often on the show But for now, I really want to thank you for making time and getting on this chat with me Thank you. Thank you mark. What is your biggest takeaway from this conversation? Make sure to leave a comment down below. We'd love to know if you made it this far I'm assuming that you enjoyed this conversation to make sure you don't miss any of the future episodes Click that subscribe button. So you'll be notified when a new conversation comes out My name is Mark van Tijn and I want to thank you for being part of this community Thanks for watching to the service design show and I'll see you very soon in the next video