 To be with you again, welcome to another episode of Youth and Politics. Today, we've got two guests with us, and I'm going to introduce them in a bit, just after I tell you our social media handle. I'd like you guys to know that you can reach out to us. You can join the conversation on Twitter, that is Y254Channel, as well as Facebook, Y254Channel, and Instagram, Y254 underscore channel. Please continue to converse with us. We'd love to hear your views. And now to our guests. I'd love to introduce you to our first one. Bernard Wakoli. Bernard Wakoli. Bernard Wakoli, please tell us what you do. Okay, I'm a political expert and governance and political expert. Okay, governance and political expert. Okay, you're in the right place. We're glad to have you. Thank you very much. And our second guest. Yeah, my name is Kaisu. I'm not new here. I'm a journalist here at Y254. And again, I'm a student leader. I lead all my students at the University of Nairobi. You lead all my students at the University of Nairobi. You're a journalist here. I'm a journalist here, yes. By the way, I've seen you. So I'm glad to have you on the same table. Thank you. Karibu Nisana. Yes. So today we're actually going to start off with something that I think a lot of Kenyans have been quite passionate about, and it's been on the tongue of many people, the VC resigning and making his views clear that he does not want our DP to vie into 2022 elections. And I wanted to ask how exactly you feel about that. And although it has been going through a process, what do you feel this means? What do you think is behind all of this? Do you feel like there's a motive? There's something funny about Kenyan politics, Joy. Something funny. Yeah, that politics starts immediately after elections. Like, when did we do elections? They are barely one year in office, yes. And politics is already hot, and it is hot. Hot like you can drop it if you catch it. Like we have elections next month or something. You know, USA is doing its election next year, 2020. And there's no active politics in USA now. They're waiting for the right time. But as in Kenya, there's politics all through. Every day. Like after swearing in of those who've taken office, politics starts immediately. So that is what is funny about Kenya. That is what is not there about Kenya. Yes. So it is what now should be addressed. That is now the way of Kenya. So we understand it's our unique attribute. Yes, okay. And how about you? What's your... Thank you very much for having me here today, and welcome viewers. In my considered opinion, I feel failing to plan is planning to fail. And electro-cycle, just to depart from what my colleague is talking about, electro-cycle starts immediately after casting your vote. And for any serious politician, you start planning the five years from the time a ballot paper is cast. The moment you vote, that's when you start looking for the life span of the five-year span. So any serious politician should now be organizing himself for raising resources, planning his teams, if you want to buy for the 2022 seat. You don't wait till 2019 or 20, then you wake up from sleep somewhere and say you want to buy for a political seat. So it's normal, it's obvious for anybody who is interested and who is serious about running for a political seat to start organizing himself. Looking at the Murad issue, I saw it coming because when you look at the formation of jubilee, jubilee was not like established as a single party. This is a conglomeration of many political parties that came together. Others like the Kaleem Mendele's party were swallowed and now Kaleem Mendele is nowhere to be seen. But the major parties were URP and TNA that came together to form the jubilee party. So all these people have interests and you remember Ruto's party was actually the third majority party in the URP was the third and it has a lot of stake in jubilee. So for a vice chairman or sector general, the sentiments of Tuju and for your information, Tuju is also on the chopping board. He might also be going very soon because these are people who hold so much stake in jubilee and I've seen people have started revamping Muruban parties like DP and PNU in preparation for the 2022 elections. And this could be another vehicle for those who feel disgruntled in jubilee to live jubilee and join PNU and DP. But it's normal again for coalition when you look at the history of coalition formations from 1992 when Ford came into place, then there were Wrangles, then they split from Ford Kenya to Ford Asili, Ford people also came. Then we came to 2002 head NAC, NAC also after election it split. Then we had PNU towards 2007. PNUs after the elections it also died, slotted but still existing in paper. Then we have the jubilee. So what's happening in jubilee is not uniquely jubilee affair but it's because of the kind of politics and the nature of politics of our environment. We tend to form political parties as special vehicles to take us through a certain electoral process and once we are done with that process, once we are reached there, then we don't see the value of this party. So it's political realignments have started and we are going to see March from moving forward. We are going to see big weeks shifting goalposts and looking for relevance in other political parties. We are going to see other coalitions coming up. So for you are hearing rumors of Kanu, Amani coalition and maybe HODM and all those other parties coming together, then you see DPs also going to come up with these own formations and the coalitions of like-minded political players. So as we move towards 2022, I think we are expecting so much politically in terms of political realignments. Yes and something you mentioned I found interesting just before I moved to you. So you're saying that Kenya as a whole, our politics is based on coalitions and those coalitions have been forming and breaking and that's exactly what is happening, especially with the case that we are talking about. So just to come again about that issue, I think our coalitions as we stand now, the nature of our political formations are established on ethnic and regional basis. And once then we have this person, a figure person, I call them personality kind of personality syndrome in politics. So when these people come together and they set up regional kingpins, in the name of those people carrying the aspirations of the other, the rest of the region or the larger community, so these people come together and form the so-called coalitions. But these coalitions are mainly formed because of interest and on a quick sand that at the end of the day, if these big weeks don't agree at the helm, then they insolve. And we have always been reminded about MOUs that are never fulfilled. We are reminded of people hiding other cards under the table, placing such kind of things. So it's all about interest. People call political coalitions marriages. I don't feel it's good. Yes, they are not marriages because they break marriages at least last. But these arrangements don't last. Like, where is NASA? Where is NAC? Like what he was saying, they are not all there. So I think it's just somebody called politics a game of many possibilities. Although there are no permanent enmity, no permanent friendship, there are only permanent interests. So if you believe interfering with somebody's interest, future interest, and is in a position to break it, that is now what is happening. In fact, I wanted to read for you something here MOUra tweeted. Yes, please go ahead. MOUra. He said, Jubilee Party was a big tent with two poles, one called Uru Kenyatta and another one, Ruto. Akamel came in in the name of handshake and tore the tent apart slowly, but surely. Now we have two teams, Tim Keleweke and Tim Tangatanga. There are two teams here. So he's saying, don't cry too much, Jubilee orphans. This came, this is a come with stay, like relationship, which culminated into a one night stand. And now the marriage is falling apart. That's what he's saying. So you know, when you hear people like MOUra saying this, and in fact, this guy, the guy who just resigned is called, who, the vice, MOUra. Yeah. When you hear them talk, when you hear people like MOUra and that guy talking that way, you know, there's somebody, there's somebody, they are just, they are just shadows, they are just puppets, but they are real. Oh, there's someone in the back. That's controlling. Yeah. And there's a lot of testing water in politics. Somebody's testing waters. Somebody's like, or even preparing people at their backyards, like he said, they are kingpins. So the kingpins are preparing people at their backyards that should be prepared for this. Right. And once it serves a purpose, like you were saying, it breaks apart. Yeah, it's just like tissue paper. After you sing it, you forget about it. Okay. Yeah, it's immense. It's immense history. You have very interesting analogies, just like tissue paper. And also like what the tweet that you just read, by the way. And I want to move on to something that is a bit different. There were remarks that Moses Korea made regarding the development in Mount Kenya. And these remarks were directed to our president. And you know, people felt as if, ah, you shouldn't have said these things. You know, it's, it's a little unprofessional of you to express your views in this way. But he was also getting support from some people who thought that what you're saying is true. And there's no reason why you should hide the truth and the truth should be spoken. Now those two opposing views, I also have two guests over here. And I'd like to hear your views about what those remarks mean to you as a citizen of this country. I am his junior. So I would like to start so that it will be happening. The juniors talk first then they sing. If they defeat the president and the president, depute the president talks first, then the president. But what a tato. What a tato. Okay. You fought for your position. Go ahead. Moses Korea is a sanguine. A sanguine or personality change. In psychology, they are sanguins and melancholic. Melancholic think what they want to speak first, synthesize it, then speak it after it's been synthesized. Sanguins. I see where you're going. Sanguins speak, then think, oh, what have I said? So that's what Moses Korea is. It's a sanguine and it's a political sanguine. Like we will speak. And then how many apologies of Moses Korea have we had? So many of them. He will speak. And I think he's excited by the crowd. When the crowd is like, yes, yes, the more yes you give him or the more yes you give him, the more he will speak out of what he planned to speak. So I think he really didn't plan to speak what he spoke. He just spoke because of the crowd and because he speaks, then thinks what he has spoken. So you think he didn't mean what he said? Yeah, he didn't mean it. He didn't mean it. Because you can't say that Central has been or Kenya has been marginalized. Yes. When all the senior positions in the government, you hear the Kikuyu names, the Meru names and all that. In fact, it's only handshake that is bringing other names now. But before that, and the entirely 2013, it was like a Kikuyu and a college in government entirely. Certain ethnic groups. Yes. So yes. So you can't say that some place has been marginalized when all the names are there. So I think he didn't mean it. So just excitement like to please the crowd. Right. That's my type. Okay. Oh, thank you very much for bringing in a very serious discussion. And I feel there has been a lot of disquiet from the Mount Kenya region in terms of a performance of the performance of the government. You know, during campaign there were those excitements. You had slogans like Kumira Kumira and you know, those kind of things that people could even carry the sequence from the hospital to gun vote. There was a lot of excitement in the name that the hopes were, expectations were high in the imagination that after the Jubilee government takes power and the foundation that Uhuru and Ruta had made in 2013, 2017, then is going to continue with those kind of development. Then they are realizing that even in 2013, 2017, the Jubilee government might have concentrated so much in terms of infrastructure development in other parts than, you know, what Kibaki did in central. So there has been that disquiet and okay, they are mamas because you need to protect the king. You don't want to expose the king's nakedness and say, okay, our king is naked. But looking from the sentiments coming from even when you go to, to people doing, you know, petty merchandises and selling on the streets, you listen to them, they will tell you how hard this government has been to even small businesses. And, you know, it's, it pains them so much because these are people woke up around midnight to go and line up to vote and seeing that the development is now going to other parts of the country and is not, you know, facing them, then they feel betrayed, they feel cheated. And another thing just to support what my colleague is talking about, the issue of sharing government resources and, you know, sharing government positions and appointments. Yes, there have been an increasing level of people from Central Kenya, Old Mount Kenya region and Kalenjin Plam government positions. Other regions are given as a token, like, you know, just pick somebody, some names who are not even, you know, to feel a regional balance to make the government look like, you know, but people were appointed to represent those regions. Members of those regions don't feel well represented in the government and say, and who is that? Where did he come from, you know? And who knows him? We have never even heard about him, you know. So it does not, these people do not connect with the population that they hope to, to represent. Another thing, looking at the Moses Kuri statement, it might have used one stone to beat two birds, you know. And one thing that's coming up from so many people is that maybe Kuri is trying to set up a scenario where another Kikui Preznejo candidate will come in and they will say, okay, you can see even who was there, but because they were so, so, was there and we did not benefit, we did not get any development. So having another Kikui Preznejo as no problem, we can, yeah, we don't benefit. They will give example for Baringo, you see. People in Baringo, Moe was in power for 24 years, they are still eating, you know, wild berries and, you know, they are always starving. So, so that we say, okay, then as a candidate, you don't need, president doesn't have so much powers, you know, you can be president, but you don't benefit at the expense of other communities. And at the same time, now looking at the political gameplay between Ruto and the Uru people, it might be preparing a way for for Ruto's ascension to power and say, okay, our people did not benefit so much from Uru, so we can support Ruto because from another community who has been working, then it will bring benefit to us. So it might be a two way scenario looking at his statements, but entirely speaking, it's something that is talked quietly within the Mount Kenya region. I've been to several parts. You can't see a significant development. When you were there, you don't see any significant difference? Yeah, yeah, you don't see anything. Apart from these waivers of the coffee farmers where it goes and says, okay, we are going to waive the, you know, the loans that are owned by farmers, we are going to pay so and so, you know, such kind of things. But you don't see a serious infrastructure like a serious road development, a serious, you know, factor being set up, a serious, you know, those kind of things. So maybe and even looking at his own constituency where most curators and MP roads, they are very pathetic, you know, and this and yesterday saw some banners saying this is President Kinyata's, you know, county and constituency, then, you know, you know, people feel disgusted and feel there's so much disappointed and feel disquiet and also adding to the economic hardships, you know, some people feel okay. During Kibaki time, things were quite easy, you know, now he's also proposing taxing even the Mamambogas who are just doing, you know, petty trade. They're also going to be taxed at 15% of their annual gross income. So when you look at those things that the policies that Ura is coming up with, actually it's not meant for a common, a common one-in-year. No, I like what is happening. The fact that somebody can be like, feel dissatisfied that their person is not developing their backyards. I think it will ease the political tension and that it's our son, our man, our person from our tribe kind of politics. Yeah, because people will ultimately understand that the fact that your son is in power doesn't mean it will be more developed than other areas. Yeah, so that people will start be looking at policies, at manifestos, at some other substantial things, like, you know, Kenyan politics is still so weak and our democracy is just like still a drama that people can complain, even Moses Kuri himself can complain that we are not being developed, but when Uru will now, President Uru will now buy again as somebody maybe from coast, he will forget all that and say, our son, our son is buying, yes. So the fact that people will realize that our backyards, that the backyards of those who are in power are not much developed than other parts of the country, now will bring like now mature politics to Kenya. I encourage it. In fact, Moses Kuri should expose more of what is not happening in the backyards of Uru. But in the beginning you said he didn't mean what he said. Yeah, I know. But now you are, it's like you're in support of what he said. It didn't mean it, but it's good. But it's good anyway. There's some kind of importance to what he said. It should do more, this ultimate importance into that. People will see that the fact that your person is in power doesn't mean you'll benefit more. So you get to see the man behind the tribe. I wouldn't think of doing a story of President Uru's neighbor who is very poor. So that people will see that the fact that your person is in power, so that people will choose like I can choose a Giriyama to be a president if he present to me a better manifesto than our guy from my case, Baba. For your case. Well, thank you for letting us know your case. I'm just seeing a really big rift in the Jubilee party as we started to discuss in the beginning. And I just wanted to ask what this means for Kenya because as time, like you said, it's only been a year, even barely. As time continues to go, we've just, I mean, right now they're falling apart. How is it going to be in the years to come? And the disquiet you're talking about, do you think it's actually going to turn into something more than just disquiet? Will it maybe cause some kind of security unrest in your opinion? And do you think these political oppositions, or do you find that the opposition is no longer an opposition anymore? Because in my view, the opposition is no longer an opposition. There are just so many oppositions until, yeah, the original opposition is no longer an opposition anymore. What does this mean for our country? Joe, you have asked so many questions. Go together. But I'll start from the point of the experiences or what's happening in Jubilee party. As I said in the beginning, this is not uniquely Jubilee. It's something that happens throughout the electro cycle of every elector here, especially when the time of the president is coming to an end. There's that struggle for power. People want to take over succession politics is also at play. Then when you look at Jubilee government, Jubilee party, as it is, it was a marriage of convenience arising from the 2007, the experiences of 2007. So 2013 elections was held in terms of ethnic mobilization and as a deterrent of what, a repeat of what happened in 2007. So these people, the two big weeks, who are also in the ITs at the ICC, mobilized their backyard, their political followers and ethnic groups in the name that if you don't elect us, then we are going to be jailed. And it was very clear we are the masses of you guys. If we elect as president and deputy, then we can defend ourselves. But if you leave us, then you want us to die in foreign land. And it really whipped the emotions of people leading to the elections. Now that 2017 was a bit was a bit in terms of mobilization, but we have had cases of maybe electoral malpractices and so on. And Wu was worried to be a one-term president in the east of Kenya. And he wanted support. He really, really wanted, he really wanted this support from other regions. So he was elected. And after election, during campaign, he was saying, okay, I'll be there for this term only. Then I leave. These are promises he made publicly. Then for another term, it will be William Ruto to take over for 10 years. So he prepared Ruto supporters emotionally. They knew after Wuru, we are the ones who are going to take over this leadership. Then when you look at even that period, when there was these repeat elections, and ODM or NASA was agitating for a view of the electoral system and saying, okay, let's review the electoral management system so that we can have a fair playing ground. Wuru said, don't discuss with me issues of electoral management. That one you will discuss with Ruto after my term ends. So in all his sentiments, he has assured Ruto supporters and he has assured Ruto's community that it will be Ruto. So starting now looking at the sentiments that are coming out, some people are feeling betrayed. And that's why you have seen even some leaders from Mount Kenya saying, I had this Wuru Guru from Likipia saying it's a betrayal in the city. And these people are portraying us from Mount Kenya to be people cannot be trusted by anybody. So we are not going to look at into it. We are going to support Ruto because this is a commitment that our leaders made and we are going to support it. So it's like, okay, we cannot trust Kikuyu's because when you do them agreement, they cannot hone it. Some people are telling me Kikuyu's have a very high IQ when it comes to politics. And anything that they do in terms of political realignment, they're looking ahead and seeing what's our stake, what's our place in all these. So the noise that you are hearing, maybe it could be pushing Ruto to pick Kikuyu as a deputy president so that it's also balances. Because when you look at the whole gameplay, you don't see the Kikuyu nation is looking at it and saying, okay, what's our place? What's our stake? Okay, if we support this guy, what are we gaining from it? If it goes and picks a running mate from western or from Nyanza or from where? What's our stake? So we need to begin from the defense point of view that we are there, we negotiated and you give us this. But again, jubilee is likely to die. Parties are going to emerge. Yes, I've told you DP and PNU are being revamped, maybe to cut off the interest of Mount Kenya region. And Ruto is also busy shopping for other parties that will come up and registering. So jubilee is likely to die because of interest. The way you say it, it was a marriage of convenience and it's inevitable that it's likely to be the party in 2022. Jubilee is in ICU. Yeah, it's dying very soon. If we'll be here for the next one year with jubilee, we'll be here to see. That's how parties the next one year you feel like jubilee. That's how we can predict this is something called like you can predict you can if you know that sun has been rising every every day you know tomorrow it will rise again. Yeah, it's called induction. It's called induction in science. So we can induct that jubilee will die very soon. These are just the what we are seeing are just symptoms. And I want to first for what he was saying of the promises of the all that of the deaths that the central people of the deaths from from the the rift valley people and all that. If you have a debt, if you have my debt, which you took last year, and then you took his debt yesterday, which one should you pay first? The one that you took before. Yeah, there was a debt. There was a debt between the senior Jomo Kenyatta and it was not paid. There was also a debt between Kibaki and Rael. It was not paid. Now the debt that was borrowed yesterday. People should not be just playing like pay pay pay. You should pay. I know you read about Okunko. This guy who had a long list of debts. So when he came to to borrow you, he would like tell you and pay you tomorrow and all that and all those. And then when you go to like so you go to like give me my money, you'd give you a long list of debts until you are number 72. I've not even paid number three. So please be patient. I have a long list of debts. So there's that you that the people from central have that long list of debts. The people who borrowed yesterday should be patient and wait that the first people would be paid first if they will come later. Yes. Okay. That's politics of debts. Okay. There are people talk about paying debts and everything. But you see the and that's because of our our low development in politics. Our politics has not yet matured to a level where we talk about ideologies and policies and you look at somebody and say, okay, this one can can lead the can have can lead to development of this nation. We still look at politics in terms of it's our time to eat in the words of what was his name? This guy wrote this book. He has the chosen names. Yes. So if it's our time to eat, then people tend to feel that it's if our man is at the top, then we're going to eat that narrative has been there and it has to be challenged so that we start building our democracy in terms of ideology, in terms of policies, in terms of manifestos, what this person is bringing on the table. But manifestos are there. They are there. But you know, because of the ethnic interest and, you know, political realignment, we don't even look at those manifestos. How many people read those manifestos? It's just because Reilly is there and Baba Nesema, Baba Nesema, you had the constitution review when they were saying, okay, I'm not reading this constitution because Baba is read and they are saying it's good or Baba said it's bad. So I'm opposing it. You know, without looking at the content of those things. What they want to bring to the table. I don't know if you looked at the NASA and Jubilee manifesto. And for your information, I'm lucky to have participated as one of the experts in writing the NASA manifesto. Oh, really? Oh, that's wonderful. Yes, so I understand the contents. But again, in our development of the NASA manifesto, what we're doing is comparing with the Jubilee manifesto and maybe building on what they have indicated and, you know, subtracting. But all those things, when you look at the pillars, when you look at the socio-political and economic issues that were being discussed, is almost the same. The difference was the language and how it's captured. So that's where, as I can't do, yeah, because we don't, when you look at developing the democracies like US or UK, UK do not even have a written constitution. They rely on common laws. Things that are passed from one generation to another. They don't have any written constitution that will say, okay, one to review this constitution. Yes, but their policy is still, their policy is still work. Yeah, they have not written down. So they have less hypocritical, they have less hypocritical like us, as we have good written. Good constitution. But it's better than writing it. But we don't know what they wrote. They did a good work. Now, we don't know. But whose fault is that? Kenyans fear reading. Kenyans fear reading. They fear reading. If you want to hide something from Kenyans, just put in a book. Yeah, now there's people read Facebook. But we don't need it. We didn't need it. If my political king being has said, we are going to go this way. So people just move that way. Yeah. Or if somebody was given new money. But shouldn't we be moving away from that narrative of my political king thing? Shouldn't we be moving and now focusing on, okay, this is so-and-so's manifesto. This is so-and-so's manifesto. Compare them and choose. I think I'll follow this. We will if we will start letting people speak their mind. Like now, if they didn't force Moses Kuria to apologize, it would be good. Yeah, because you'd speak his mind now, people from the backyard says, ah, apologize. You did what? Because he spoke his mind and his mind is against the majority from his backyard. So the moment people will be left to speak their minds, it will be now very easy. Like now if somebody like told you, it's really a bad omen in Kenyans. It's not wanted because he speaks his mind. So the fact that we'll have a real democracy. What I told you before we started or when we started is that we have a like a dramatization of democracy. What we have dramatization, even the manifestos and all that, we just dramatize that we have them, but we don't practice them. What we practice, what we follow, number one is our tribe, number two is our stomachs. Now, those are for the lower seats when like in Central where all those who are buying there are from one tribe. Now you start leaving tribe, you follow your, your time, your time. Like he was saying, it's our time to eat like the way, by the way, I love that book. It's one of my favorite by Miguna Miguna. That's in English. No, no, no, it was written by Miquela Rong. But it was in his words that she was writing. It was so compelling to read that. And we're still in that it's our time to eat. And I really hope we can move away from that. But then, because Kenya is not going to grow until you can move from that. Until people can just decide. But what I'm realizing is the past one year, a lot of things have become hard on Kenyans, especially taxes. I mean, life has just become life has just become something else. And you know, it's reached a point where some people are questioning the choices they made for, you know, leadership and things like that. And that's when you do open your eyes and realize, Oh, okay, so maybe it's not necessarily about my turn to eat and our people's time to eat. This is about all the Kenyans turn to eat. It's about all of us benefiting from our government, benefiting from leadership. And in order for that to happen, I feel that, like I said before, we need to really look at what our leaders are bringing to the table. And if they don't bring to the table what they said, they're going to bring to the table. If you call yourself an adult, you need to be smart enough to know that this particular choice is not working out. But again, before we move forward, maybe there's something that's very interesting in our politics. When you look at the just link for this presidency, it's like there's so much rewards when it comes to political, political power and political positions. Maybe in Kenya, we might want to, you know, to reduce the incentives attached to political seats and especially the presidency. But again, but again, Ruto started his campaigns early. So it's the focus. But Ruto having declared his presidency does not deter anybody, even you Joey, from running for Kenya to be Kenya's president. So let us not focus so much on Ruto will be the next president. Oh, who and who, let us, you know, let us expand this democratic space. Let anybody come in, you know, those who have polluted themselves. I saw the other day Mudeva was very mad in Western saying, why do people allowing Ruto to come to Western and, you know, taking all my MPs, as if he has been locked, not to go to Rift Valley or another part of the canton cell is policies. And Kaiyesu, how would you like to do it? Because it's about that time. What would be your last statement? I want to, as a student leader, I want to, to enlighten the nation. Thank you for, by the way, that's that there's no longer NASA and Jubilee. It's dying very fast. There are two camps as, as Korea, not Korea, Maura, as Senator Maura did it. There's Tim Keleweke and Tim Tanga Tanga. So choose the team you want to be in because that is the future of Kenyan politics from now up to elections. Thank you. Thank you so much. That was such an interesting discussion. I really enjoyed my time with you for the view. And I just like before we conclude, I'd like to shout out Salome Mukami and Stella Mathu who are watching from Kadara. Just a big thank you so much for tuning in. You guys, your viewing means a lot to us. Remember, you can reach out to us. You can also converse with us and share your views on what we've just discussed on Twitter. You can find us on Y254 channel on Instagram, Y254 underscore channel and on Facebook, Y254 channel. My name is Joy Machache and this was Youth and Politics. Thank you so much for tuning in. Do have a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful Monday. Thank you.