 If a sheep died, the best way to really preserve its memory is to eat their dead body. Well, I'd use it, yeah. Have you ever had any family members that have died recently? So do you think it's nice to be vegan? I'm not debating a lie, I'm debating you. Bear, eat baby deer. Yeah, otherwise the bear would die. Yeah, and will you die if you don't violate animal rights? I would rather die than eat vegan babies. A hundred years ago, you wouldn't be able to survive being vegan. I'm not debating you on a time machine, dude. My family, they know where we're getting our produce from. We know that the farmers will buy and treat the animals badly. I would believe you, but you're eating our Burger King, so like... Most of the world eat meat, though. Most of the world eat meat, because most of the world are disconnected like you, Zard. I mean, you don't even want to see the footage. That says a lot. You twist it to make me sound like a bloody Nazi, I think. It is Nazi thought. All right, so here we are. We've got Burger King behind me. We're in Leicester Square, London. Going back to the old school days, mate. Back to 2019. But we've got a table that says veganism is a moral obligation, meaning I believe you have a moral obligation to be vegan. Minimum. And we're going to see what the public think about that and see if we can get some good discussions about animal rights. Let's go. Means you have to do it. Do you ever just like fancy like a notion of pig? Come and tell me about it. Sometimes I get home from like, you know, a bender and I just like fancy a notion of pig. Notion on a pig? Yeah. Well, you mean like a fully grown live pig or? No, just like bacon, you know. I like bacon. Like a piece of a pig that's been killed? Yeah, yeah. And you're asking if I fancy that? Well, obviously I believe that animal should have like similar rights to human beings, so... When was the last time you ate meat? The last time I ate meat was when I was 26. And what made you stop? You know how you experience the world right now. You can see me, you can hear, you can feel. If I punch you in the face, it will hurt. If you punch me in the face, it will hurt. So we don't punch each other in the face because we have a mutual respect for each other's experience, you know, like causing each other suffering. And if I booted a dog in the head or stabbed him with a knife in the eye, for no apparent reason, you'd probably say, why did you do that? You absolute psychopath. For the same reason like that, we care about the experiences of each other and experiences of the dog. Yeah. I extend that to other animals who are exactly the same. But do you not think about, you know how lions sometimes like kill other animals? Do you not think that's just natural? Why would I care about what's natural? Because we need some sort of stuff from the meat, don't we? You're making two different arguments. In one breath, you're saying lions shred other animals that's natural. Yeah. But when I'm discussing what is a moral obligation, why would I care about what happens in nature? Because we're technically part of nature, aren't we? So you think that we should act how animals act in nature? Well, it's kind of unnatural not to eat meat. We've done it for 2,000 years. Well, I'm just talking about shredding animals alive. Should we do that? Well, that's just like, that's a big version of it. Oh, he's got some stuff. One second, one second. If you want to jump in, do you want to jump in? What are you saying is that because something happens in nature, like lions do horrible things to other animals and they eat them out of necessity, then we basically have a justification to do horrible things and eat them out of that. A lot of the technology these days, it's all very humane. But why would you care about what's humane if you try and mimic a lion? Lions aren't humane, are they? Do you eat like, mustard? Yeah, so you don't agree with him? No. You didn't agree we should act like lions? No. Well, well, do you agree with humane slaughter? What do you mean, right? Like, causing animals to at least amount of suffering before we kill them. I think so, yeah. Then why would you care about what a lion does? They cause the maximum amount of suffering. Go straight for the juggernaut. They rip antelopes' faces off, fully conscious. What do you mean, do you think they go for humane kills? Well, luckily we don't have to do that. One second. Have you seen lions rip as ever apart? Uh, no, not really. Yeah, they rip their stomach out, their stomach falls on the ground, and then they go for the guts first. Do you think that's what we should do now? I'm just asking you, should we do that? Uh, well, no, I don't think we should do that, but I think... Wait, wait, so we shouldn't act like lions? Well, there's a part of me that humans just need, like... No, but that's a different topic. I'm asking you if we should act like lions, because that was the thing that you said. No, I'm just saying that. That's an example of nature where animals eat. I just want to figure out if you want to bite the bullet on acting like lions in nature. What do you mean? Oh, I never said it. I would never go out and, like, rip a zebra's face off. No, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying... So it's wrong to act like lions act when you're a human being in civilisation, yeah? Yeah, but, like, I still think we should even... So we don't have to mimic our behaviour based on the actions of lions, all right? Yeah. I'm glad you pulled off that position, because I think it's insane. And lions kill and eat each other's babies in that. You know that, right? Yeah, I know. They have to, like, it's nature. Yeah, but we don't have to do it. So you think lions should be vegan? We don't have to, though, do we? I'm not debating a lion. I'm debating you. And then... So you sat down. I'm saying you have a moral obligation to. You're not a lion, all right? Because a lot of people like to point to lions. I'm just using, like, a little... But would you eat mutton? You know, like, one that's died naturally, you know? I actually give it a little bit more reverence to the life of an animal than to, like, desecrate their morality remains. Surely, it actually... Because I believe animals should have rights, like, you know how you have a right right now? If someone abused you, killed you, enslaved you, then we go to prison, you have rights protecting you. I think animals should have, like, fundamental rights protecting them as well. Let's just, like, if a sheep died, I think the best way to, like, really preserve its memory is to... Eat their dead body. Well, I use it, yeah. Have you ever had any family members that have died recently? Or not recently at all? Yeah, yeah. Okay, would you eat them to preserve their memory? No, I don't think I would, actually. Yeah, yeah, of course, it's a human life. Yeah, but what's the... Okay, it's just an argument for asking me, somebody who respects animals, if I were to eat their dead body, for no reason, I don't need to to survive. In a survival situation, I would look for an animal that is already died. You wouldn't be able to survive without being vegan. Well, I'm not debating you in a time machine, dude. Yeah, but I'm just saying, like... No, no, I want to say it's pretty unnatural. Who cares what they did 100,000 years ago? They used to rape and kill each other, and there was no laws, and who cares? Yeah, but even 50 years ago, right, you would still struggle to be a vegan. How long's veganism been around for? I'm not sure, wow. There were vegans, like, thousands of years ago. Five years, five years. No, no, no. There's a guy who wrote a vegan poem about 2,000 years ago, and veganism was coined in 1944. Yeah, okay. These are all side issues. Why aren't you vegan? Because I don't start pig. Yeah, so you like the taste of it? Well, I've been... That's probably more closer to the... Yeah, that of why. What is the justification for not being vegan? So you think it's a health thing? Is that why you're eating Hungry Jacks for health? Burger King. Burger King, so we call it Hungry Jacks in Australia. Do you do that for a balanced diet? I do that. Yeah, exactly. So, like, a lot of things we do are for pleasure, right? Yeah. You said I like to eat pigs. Yeah. That's probably why you eat meat, eh? Yeah. And you mentioned the cultural factor, like, we've been conditioned to kind of feeling like we eat meat because we're brought up to, because everyone else does. Yeah. So do you think either of those things, like, we'll start with liking the taste of something, liking the taste of something justifies doing something horrible, like, murdering someone to eat their body? No, I don't think that, but, like, I think... So it doesn't justify it? Well, no, but I think, like, you know, it's just part of humanity, I think. Lots of things are part of humanity. Rape and murder are as well. So is war. So is killing children. Humans abuse children. So would you say a rapist is a bad... Child abuse is part of humanity. Would you say, like... It's a bad part of humanity. I don't think it's... Would you say I'm as bad as a rapist, because I eat meat? That's not what... Dude, let's feel it. I never said that. You said we eat meat because it's part of humanity. And I said there are a lot of horrible things that are part of humanity. Rapist... So I don't care if it's part of humanity, basically, is what I'm saying. Now, you said I'm as bad as a rapist. Obviously, there's an indirect consequence of your action here and a direct consequence of raping. So whose fault is it, then? That I am me. When you... Well, there's a lot of sociological factors, like cultural conditioning, why you do something. I think it's disconnect, why you do, and why you do as well. Because that was, for me, I was disconnected from the slaughterhouse, didn't know the animal. I was just eating meat. I wasn't eating the murdered flesh of a being who didn't want to die. It's easy for you to go on there and buy a burger. Right now, you can. Yeah. It's completely legal. No one will judge you. I don't know if you've seen what happens to animals inside a slaughterhouse. Have you? Yeah. Well, I mean, I know, I know. They kill them, don't they? Do you know what happens to the animal in terms of their experience when they're in a slaughterhouse about to die? I think they get shot. Come here. What do you want to do? Like, it's all well and good to stop me, but overall, what change are you trying to make? You're going to try and go to Parliament? No, I like people like yourselves. Like, how would you use a younger, right? I'm just trying to create, like, a bit of a thought about this topic with you first, just like applying a seed in your mind. Like, I'm trying to figure out how you think it's justified. Obviously, we went to Lyons. You went to, but 100,000 years ago, we had to do this. And but it's part of humanity. So was slavery. So it was all this horrible. There are good things about humanity. There are also bad things about humanity, right? I'm trying to figure out how you can justify it. Knowing now, right, that you can go in there. Also, you can get a vegan burger. The pleasure. You can do that. Yeah, they still kill all the pigs. It's not going to make a difference, is it? In a vegan burger? Already, like, thousands of pigs have died for them. I might as well eat them either. They've done stuff. So, do you know, it's not going to make a difference. It's not actually how supply and demand works. So basically, when they restock, they restock the vegan stuff. So you create a supply chain for vegan stuff. This is just an outlet. But down the line, there's a slaughterhouse on the end of the burger. But down the line, there's plants on there. Yeah, but it's about the chain. It's really like supply and demand. You know, supply and demand, right? Like, you buy drugs, a drug dealer goes and gets more drugs, and you have it under the saying, supply and demand, isn't it? If you demand something like slaughterhouses, slaughterhouses only exist because everyone here demands they do through their purchase habits. That's why I talk to consumers. But in there, I'm pretty sure, I don't know how many dead pigs are there in there right now, but let's just say, I think it's probably a good idea, instead of eating the vegan stuff to actually, because if I don't eat it, it's going to go into the bin, isn't it? Like, you know what I mean? It's probably good to actually make the pig, the deaf, at least have some sort of. There might be a little bit of waste at the start, but then they'll stop breeding pigs into existence and slaughtering them if everyone. So how's there been a reduction in the production of meat since veganism arose? So you have to factor in population growth. So the population is growing, and basically, you need comparative data to suggest that if no one ever did anything, if the vegan movement didn't exist, if the animal rights movement or vegetarians didn't exist, would it have grown quicker? And I think, of course, you can make the claim that it would, but you need comparative data to suggest that veganism's done nothing. And once you get to a tipping point, like let's just say everyone here stops flying meat, you start getting vegan options, which is why there are vegan options in Burger King and KFC and everywhere, because of supply and demand. Everyone's consumption matters. Like, over the course of your life, how many animals do you think go to the slaughterhouse for you? I don't know, quite a few, probably. Yeah, probably a few hundred a year or something, chickens and fish and da-da-da. Yeah, but so do you think what about like, instead of being vegan, what about like vegetarians, you know? Just one step. It's probably easy, isn't it? Instead of saying, like, obligation, do you not think it would just be better to encourage it? Because you're saying about the social factors, instead of just a sudden drastic change, we're not bees into it. Let's just say you were bashing people with black shirts on, red shirts on, and yellow shirts on, right? And then you said, look, man, like, I get it, it's like, it's bad to bash people, but I'll just, I'm just gonna bash people with black shirts on from now on. So I'm just gonna reduce to black shirt bashing. I would say, we know bashing is wrong, don't we? So like, I would not, I would still think that was a bad thing, but it's less bad than the alternative, right? Because the dairy cows and the egg-laying hens and all that are still slaughtered, aren't they? Do you know that? Do you know that they're slaughtered? Because a lot of people don't know that with throw eggs and dairy, they have a better life. They have a better life? Yeah. It's usually worse, actually. You can say that it's better if they just don't exist in the first place, then. Yeah. So then they don't even experience anything. Yeah, well, for one, most of the animals here at Factory Farm so they're experiencing hell when they're born. In my family, they know where we're getting our produce from. We know that the farmers will treat the animals fairly. I would believe you, but you're eating out of Burger King. So like, I've been doing it, nah. You just said yourself. There is a dead pig in there, let's be honest. There isn't. You're saying yourself? Nah, but brother, yeah, but you know, you don't just eat meat from your family suppliers, what was that? That's the majority. I'd say 95%. They do eggs, milk, dairy, pigs, fish. It's a local farm. It's a local farm that do fishing pigs and chickens. I don't really eat fish. You don't eat chickens? I eat chickens, yeah. And they kill the chickens there? Yeah. Okay, so they do chickens? Yeah. They do pigs? Yeah. They do cows? Yeah. And they do milk? Milk, yeah. And they do eggs? Yeah. And lamb as well. They're like a one-stop meat shop. I mean, I would believe you, but I'm doing this a long time and a lot of people do say that to me and I just think like everyone eats whatever they can wherever they're out, like, you know. And even if that were true, like there are some people who only eat meat from one supplier and they're usually like on a carnivore diet they eat from one place. I don't think that's you, but let's just say it was like it would still in my view be a rights violation of those animals to murder them so you can eat them. Once you exist, right? Yeah. You've had a good life. Yeah. Yeah, you've had a pretty good life. I don't see yourself in that much life. I mean, it might have been not so good, but reasonably good right now. Yeah, decent, decent. Would it be humane if I come up behind you and shot you in the back of the head? To eat you? I'm gonna eat you. You're not gonna go to waste? No, I think that'd be all right. It's okay? Yeah. So it's humane? Well, I think, no. You have a conscience though. You have a conscience so it's wrong to kill you. What do you mean like a feeling of right and wrong in your heart? You mean a conscience? Consciousness? Yeah. Yeah, animals are conscious as well. Yeah, but they don't have advanced thoughts. Yeah, they haven't like created. Yeah, but a lot of humans don't either. So is it okay to kill the ones without advanced thoughts? I think it should be based on the majority. So if the majority of beings have advanced thought. You can't just take out some minorities and just use that example. So wait a second. If the majority of beings have advanced thought, you have to protect the minority within that species? Yeah, I'd say so. Okay, so there's a hypothetical race of aliens. The majority of them have advanced thoughts. So more advanced than us. Let's just say the gap between them and us is the same as the gap between us and a cow. Yeah. All right, so is it okay for them to treat us like cows are treated by us because they have more advanced thought? I mean like once you reach a certain level, if you're aware of what's going on to a certain extent. And cows don't meet that threshold? I wouldn't say so. How do you know? I don't. Okay. Can cows feel pain, suffering? It depends on the way they're killed them. Yeah. They're killed in the most ethical way possible. So it's only okay to ethically kill. I'm against slaughterhouses and things like that. Yeah, well you get your meat from slaughterhouses, don't you? Where does the farmer get his meat from that supplies your house? He has a farm. Yeah, but where do the animals go from the farm? They go to a slaughterhouse. A local slaughterhouse. No, I'm pretty sure they're killed ethically or I don't think I would be up. Have you ever seen what happens in a local slaughterhouse? I've stopped cameras in one before. Secret cameras and watch them kill the cows in there. Why would you want to go and watch them kill them? So people like you can realise that what you're paying for is not what you think. Oh, okay. So it's not okay for advanced aliens to do the worst? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like a supremacist attitude. It's actually Hitler's mindset. You know, he used to kill 100%. Bro, it was all about supremacy. The Aryan race is supreme to Jews, to disabled people, to old people. He used to kill them all, gas them all. So we have that mentality towards cows and pigs and chickens because they're not on our level. We could torch them. Do you eat tortured animals? Do you think farmers go in there and start watching? No, but there's legal torture that happens. Why would they want to torch them? Do you want me to talk about legal standard torture? Well, just tell me, why would... Okay. Well, they keep 60% of the mother pigs where the piglets come from in the pork industry in crates for six weeks at a time. That's just transport. No, they keep them in crates while they're farrowing. Meaning when they're having their piglets, they've had their piglets, they put them in crates so they can feed their piglets and they can't turn around for six weeks. If they reformed the farm for you and they didn't do all that stuff and they just let them roam for the whole life and they died naturally... We can't talk about hypothetical for reformed farms. But where you get your... You go in there, don't you? Yeah, something like that. You go to a local... Your parents all go meet from the local shop. Yeah. Okay, most of the animals here are factory farmed. Most of the pigs are factory farmed. Most of them are being tortured. Yeah, but let's just... But hypothetically, if they did do a reformed farm... If they didn't torture them, I would still say that it's a rights violation to murder them. Even if they didn't murder them, they just lived on a farm and they just died naturally. In the moment they died, then they shipped them off. Would you agree with that? I mean, a hypothetical world where we ate people who had passed on? No, not animals. Or would you have that position for people? Well, animals don't go around. Wait a second. Would you be consistent with people? No, because animals don't bury there. They... animals leave there. Like, if an animal... If a... Like, let's say... I don't know, a couple cows. We're talking about humans' behaviour here. We're talking about humans' behaviour. Yeah, but like, we're different. We are different. You can't argue that we're not different from animals. Yeah, I'm not saying we are different. But we share a sentence in common. We're both conscious. Yeah, but we are on a conscious and a high level. You're thinking a lot, eh? What are you thinking about? Are you thinking about this conversation, right? Yeah, it's... You're having a bit of a, like, existential... Yeah. The consciousness is always... That we're both conscious. Animals and people are. You know? Like, babies are less conscious than a lot of animals. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That we murder. You're saying, like, say we had sanctuaries, we didn't exploit animals, we didn't violate their rights, we didn't kill them anymore. So it's some utopian world where we stopped killing animals, yeah? No, yeah, yeah. So you're a vegan, we're all vegans, right? The only time we eat meat is when you see roadkill or animal-died naturally... So you'd eat roadkill? No, I wouldn't. OK. But I don't necessarily have a problem with it. The only problem I have with it is when human beings get the lust for meat, like yourselves, like the taste of it, you start breeding them, we start exploiting them, we start killing them, because that's why people do it. Well, I think the problem is, right, is that we're veganism. Like, we live in a democracy and the majority right now are all eat... They're meat eaters, so you can't argue against that. And I think it's bad to, like, impose a view. It's what a lot of people try to impose views. Is it wrong to impose on others? Yeah, I think so. So it's not wrong to impose on animals? Well, you're not imposing on them. That's the most imposing we do. What do you think happens to animals, bro? Do you want me to show you some footage? Oh, no, not really, I don't want to see. You don't want to see what happens to them? But you eat them. You don't want to see what happens to them? You don't want to see them. Why not? But then you'll stop eating it. Why shouldn't I show it to them? It's pretty man-girly. Is it the point? The point I'm seeing? It's inappropriate. So if it's so inappropriate, I shouldn't show it to you, right? Yeah. Why would it be appropriate to put it down in your mouth, chew it up and digest it? Because I love meat. Because you love meat, yeah. But you wouldn't love it so much if you knew what happened to the animals, though. Nowadays, on the score, I was just like, rare, not rare, but it's a lot more common than to be killed in what you've made. So I've been working in animal rights for about seven or eight years. It's worse than it's ever been. I'm not surprised. Yeah, because people like yourselves are right, and I was one of them. They're sold advertising. So green grass, you see the cows and the green grass, you see the hens out on the green grass. UK has the highest welfare standards. Or it's completely disconnected. All you see is burgers. You don't see slaughterhouses, but we go into factory farms, slaughterhouses all the time. And there's investigators all over the UK who, no matter what, always pull out something horrible from these places, right? But even if they didn't, even if it was just a sanctuary that took all these animals and shot them all in the back of their head, I would still say that's just like, it's murder. I'd still be against it. But I think the problem with veganism is also it's used as an advertising ploy now because my companies, instead of really believing in it, they just use it as a way to sell stuff. Because there's a demand for it. They don't care about it. Because there's a demand for it. So they are meeting the demand. And that's why I was talking about why supply and demand is so important. Like yourself, who cares what I go in and buy? Well, it matters because then they put on more options. You stop funding slaughterhouses, right? If you care enough. It's gonna be, you don't realize how hard it is even to stop. Yeah, it's gonna be so hard to stop everyone. To vegan burger in there, dude. Do you want everyone to stop eating me? Is that what you want? Yes, but the reason for that is not to control people. The reason for that is because when they eat animals, animals are bred and slaughtered to meet that demand. Would you vote for a man, like a person to come into power who imposed a rule, a law, without any voting? They gave animals rights. Yeah, that allowed everyone, imposed a law that everyone, because that is pretty... They gave animals rights. And once animals have rights, they can no longer be enslaved and murdered so you can eat them. Do you believe humans should have rights? Yeah. And should animals have rights the ones you eat? Yeah, but like, I think that you should still be able to eat them. Well, then that's violating their rights. If you look at the food chain, that counts as main purpose. No, no, no. We're not going on the food chain. We're not going on the food chain because the food chain's horrible and we talked about the food chain because lion's straight up... Yeah, but it's natural, right? You can't stop it. It's just... We're having an ethical discussion, not a natural discussion. We want to have a natural discussion. Oh, I mean, that's pretty much right. There's rape and there's murder and there's baby killing and eating in nature, who cares? Snakes eat deer alive. Because otherwise they'd die. Bear eat baby deer. Yeah, otherwise the bear would die. Yeah, and will you die if you don't violate animal rights? Well, I mean, I would rather die than eat deer and baby. Do you see what I'm saying? You're comparing like bears or lions that are going to die if they don't do something horrible to yourself who won't die. The question is, if humans deserve rights protecting them from being enslaved and killed and eaten in a steak or a burger, right? Why don't we extend that to animals who have a similar experience to us? You know they can suffer. Do you know animals can suffer? I believe they can, yeah. You believe they can? Like if I had a cow here and I shoved a hot iron in their eyeball, they've cow would experience that? Think so, yeah. They can also experience happy things, yeah? Joy, they love their children. So if they experience joy and suffering, they're having a subjective experience. What happens to them matters to them, yeah? So why shouldn't they have rights then? No, but I would argue that... To protect their experience. Everyone's go. Not everything, but neither can babies and children and dogs, but we still protect them, yeah? Yes. Yeah, but dogs. And what about people with severe disability? We still defend them and protect them and they still have human rights, yeah? True. Because there are human beings that probably have about the capacity of a cow and we protect them, don't we? They have human rights. That's like a very slim minority. Doesn't matter. The human rights are there to protect minorities. That's why they're there. They're there to protect everyone. And why do we exclude animals? If you think about it psychologically... Think about it. Humans, we can't... It's just, it's really weird for humans to try and connect with a cow like we do with a human. It's just to start like... There is a difference there, we can't... Yeah, but some people have this problem with different races as well. Oh, it's hard to connect with them over there. It's hard to connect, but... Yeah, but they're deluded, but I'm talking about actual people. Yeah, okay, yeah, human beings are human beings, right? And we know that now, but go back... And this racism's still rampant. You think they're deluded, yeah, but racism's still rampant everywhere. Yeah, but I'm just talking about vegan. That's racism, yeah, but what I'm talking about, the reason I'm bringing up racism is because speciesism is a form of discrimination that applies to animals. Because if I told you I'm going to shoot this dog in the head and eat them, you'd go, what the f***? But if I told you I'm going to shoot this cow in the head for a burger, you'd probably go, oh yeah, humane, eh? Yeah, but in some places, shooting a dog in the head would be all right. I'm asking you. You can also, I'm talking about... Like, you know how you talk about the food show? In some, I'm just asking you. Yeah. Would you have a feeling in your stomach about me having a dog right here? So, is there a dog around? They come up to me. I'm going to take him in there and slaughter him. You pay me five bucks, I'm going to slaughter him and then make a burger out of him. No, because I wouldn't want to eat a dog. I don't like to taste a dog. Look guys, how do you know? Because I don't know, I guess. If it tastes good, would that be okay to do then? I don't know, yeah, maybe. Yeah? If dog tastes good to you, is it okay to slaughter them to make burgers out of them? I think dogs are a lot more advanced than a lot of other animals. So yeah, a cow and a fetish, a cow and a fetish thing. If there's a less advanced dog, one sec. If there's a less advanced dog, that's less advanced than most dogs. Is it okay for me to... One sec. Act on the majority of the species. We've got a majority of our species that is more advanced than the majority of the cow, majority of the dogs. So it's okay for us to kill the dogs then because we're more advanced, the majority of our species. I'm going to say more advanced. I'm saying once it... I would say once it passes a certain threshold of advanced where it can take in everything that's going on and it can feel significant emotion. And you think your cow isn't as advanced as a dog? Really? And you found out they were... I'm not a scientist. Yeah, they are. And pigs are smarter than dogs in many ways. I don't know what you're measuring. Are you measuring intelligence or experience? Sentience. Experience. Yeah, well, they practically have the exact same experience because when we talk about intelligence, that's a different metric. It's how smart you are because some people are smarter, some people are less smart, but we all have rights, yeah? Yeah. So it's only wrong to kill the dog because they are more advanced than a cow. Yeah, that's my thing. And if a dog is less advanced, we can't kill them because they belong to a species that is the majority more advanced. That's your argument. But we can't kill the dogs because we're way more advanced than dogs. We can't kill them because they belong to a species that you perceive as above a certain threshold of advanced. Yeah, you know, that's the argument. It hinges on an empirical measure of dogs being more advanced than cows. So you think dogs are like one of the most advanced species out of all the mammals that we eat? I'd say they're one of the most emotionally intelligent. Yeah, but you need evidence for that. Yeah, but there is evidence. Pigs are more intelligent than dogs in many ways. And so are cows in many ways. They answer their name, they're almost equivalent. Yeah. And that's intelligence, so you're talking about sentience. Cows could be more sentient than dogs. Yeah, that's the issue. That's why I believe, at the moment, at least. Is that just to justify eating cows, or? I just think it's the same way humans, we don't go around killing people and eating them. Yeah, even though... We don't go around killing baby cows or anything. Yeah, so basically, the reason that your argument doesn't really work very well is because you've created an arbitrary threshold for sentience and put dogs in there. If we put humans in that metric of sentience, they're protected because they're part of a more advanced species, right? But if we create a more advanced species than us, we're already protected because we're above this threshold that you've set. It's like you're creating imaginary thresholds that we can't empirically prove yet. And that's what you're basing, like, the justification of the Holocaust of, like, billions of animals on, this arbitrary, like, sentience threshold that you've created with dogs. I agree with the law you're saying. And the thing is that it's just too hard right now to... Like, it's a big commitment. You have to admit it, to be a vegan. Yeah, to change everyone. Right now, it's a big commitment to, like, change... If you live in a family like I do, it's hard to, like, change everyone's s*** about a thing to just veganism. I think, like, if society develops in a way towards veganism, then it'll be easier. But right now, it's hard to, like, impose that view. Let me just check something, right? I get... It might be hard. It might be hard. It's a lot harder to be slashed across the throat with a knife or live in a factory farm or something like that. How many neurons do dogs have? 500 million. That's interesting. Because cows have 3 billion, so dogs have less neurons than cows. I don't know how you can empirically measure sentience, because, like... That's just how the... You don't think it's neurons? It's just the synapses and all that stuff. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I don't think you have any empirics to... So, if I was going to say to you, do you know for sure dogs are more sentient than cows? Yeah, so you don't. So you could be agnostic on it. But, like, if you wouldn't kill a dog for a steak, right, do you think you should be killing cows for steak? Yeah, but you've got to look back. Like, dogs, their purpose towards us is to be, like... They're used to hunt for us, you know, like back then. Why do I care? But I'm just saying, if you look at Satya now, you've seen how it develops there. Cows, we've lived alongside cows as food. That's how it's been for thousands of years. Slavery has existed for thousands of years, and human beings' purpose was to serve other people. Yeah, but that isn't as rooted as humanity, as meat-eating is. Slavery, like, isn't... What? It was pretty rooted in humanity. Every single... You want to say something? Civilisation is eating meat. Not every single civilisation has done slavery. Almost, yeah, almost, yeah. Yeah, almost every single... Meat-eating is more rooted in history. Every single advanced civilisation, slavery... I mean, we could do a bit... That's an empirical claim. I'm pretty sure nearly every single advanced civilisation had slavery at one point in time. Yeah, but meat-eating is just different, though. It's not slavery, like, you can't compare. No, but I'm just... We're not talking about that. He said because the dogs serve a purpose to us... Yeah, that's their purpose. They don't serve a purpose, you know? Their purpose is to be our companions and protectors... Yeah, and then you're saying that cow's purpose is to be shot in the head and eat, yeah? Not shot in the head, but to be eaten, yeah. They have to get shot in the head. You always add that in to make it sound a bit more dramatic. Yeah, because you skip that part out, see? You just delete that part from the equation. They have to be murdered. They're not all going to be shot in the head. Yeah, some of them you just get sliced across the throat. No, but there's now... I've thought I did it in, like, shocks now, where it's just quicker. No, not now. They can't. They shoot them in the head with a captive bolt pistol. Yeah, so they shoot them in the forehead and then they cut their head off. But I just want to stick to the purpose thing. So if someone serves a purpose... Yeah. And that's their purpose. That's their purpose because we say it's their purpose. Oh, yeah. What gives us the right to dictate what your purpose is? What gives... Is it power? If we're more smarter than a certain species or stronger? We are. We are smart. You've got to admit, we are the most powerful species. Is that what it is? If we're smarter than a certain species, that gives us the right to dictate what their purpose is? You know, a society would not be here without the role of animals. I'm asking you a question. You're not answering the question, bro. Yeah, we're going. If we are smarter than a certain species, does that give us the right to dictate what their purpose is? Well, I think somehow, yeah, somewhat, yeah. Yeah, so even though they're sent in to experience the world, what happens to them matters to them. Because we are smarter, we can dictate what their purpose is to us. So it can be to be shot in the head, cut up into pieces and eaten, or it can be to live in our backyard or to be a protector. We just dictate that. We choose who lives, who dies because we're smarter. Yeah, is that an ethical view? Well, yeah. Is that your ethical view? Well, I think if you just look back at history, we wouldn't be here right now if we hadn't used like animals the way we have. Yeah, but I'll just ask you a question. It's the biggest key to humanity's progression. The question is, you can't admit. Yeah, but the question's still on the table. You didn't answer. I was just saying, because we're smarter, is that giving us the right to dictate what their purpose... Yeah, the answer is yes. I think so. So if a group of beings are smarter, they can dictate what another group of beings who are less smart what their purpose is, yeah? No, I'm not on that way. Because you're going to say I'm sort of, no. Yeah, because, you know, we could just take... We could just take all the disabled people... You always... We could take all the... No, I'm not. ...to make people sound like a bloody Nazi, I'm saying. It is Nazi thought. I'm not trying to make you sound like one. Yeah, it is, literally. This thing... It's a supremacist thought pattern. It's called, might makes right. Have you heard of this terminology? Might makes right? No, I don't know. Because I can do something. Because we're more powerful than a certain group. A minority or those who are less intelligent, we can do what we want to them. Because we say so. Now, we could do that to different races. We could do that to different people, people of different intelligence. A race of aliens could come here and do that to us. And we'd be screaming out, this is unjustified, wouldn't we? Yeah, I guess so. So why do we get to do it to other animals? Is that not hypocrisy? Yeah, but like, other animals had the opportunity to rise up. Like, this is a horrible train of thought, man, eh? So, like, if they don't have the ability to be able to defend themselves from us, then we can do what we want to them. Or we can dictate what their purpose is. Well, no, we, no one here has dictated it. People from thousands of years ago have to be able to live that way. If you want to live in this world, you've got to live that way. I ask you if it's morally justified, though. Well, it's not my decision. Now, this is a whole discussion is about, is it ethical to do so? You said yes. Well, yeah, I think so, yeah. I mean, a lot of people disagree because it creates like this massive moral... I think more people agree, though. Yeah, but only people who want to keep eating meat and don't see the hypocrisy in treating those who are... That's most of the world. So you can't say... That's not most of the world. Most of the world actually believe... Most of the world eat meat, though. Most of the world eat meat because most of the world are disconnected like you, Zard. I mean, you don't even want to see the footage. That says a lot. You don't even want to see what happens to the victims of your food choices. So how do you see what happens? How can you be here, like, defending it? Because I don't think that's the majority in every case. It is the majority. The majority of animals are factory farmed. Well, you can disagree with facts. Just look up on your phone how many animals in the UK are factory farmed. Data. It's about 85% last time I checked. I was thinking about this, but... I'm afraid I'm going to be spoiled and off. That's nice talking to you, mate. Thank you very much. Thanks a lot. Take care. I hope that made you think a little bit. Joey Karpstrum. Take care.