 additional, you know, governing board, which is boring, handles the business decisions budget, we have the TOC, which Liz and Ricardo are part of that kind of handles the technical decisions and kind of the final pillar has been the end user community and, you know, we deliberately wanted to make sure that we were not an organization, you know, driven by vendors and so when we set up the end user community we ensure that they would have a role in different parts of the organization. Initially, they had a seat on the TOC, we now have two end user reps on the TOC representing end user interests. And, you know, there's kind of multiple ways end users get involved, you know, sometimes they could simply just be, you know, passive looking to kind of learn, you know, from each other through presentations that we do with the end user group, you know, whether it's learning from another company, how do they do developer experience, how do they, you know, potentially roll out service messages, service messages. Other end users tend to be a little bit more, you know, active and contributing projects. For example, you know, Capital One recently contributed cloud custodian CNCF and for Capital One they're an organization that essentially is going through their own transformation, right? So they started out as a bank, you know, outsourced a lot of their engineering and services and they decided, wait a minute, we need to be a little bit more progressive and actually own some of our engineering and so they brought that in-house and they started to develop software on their own, open sourcing things, sharing things to kind of modernize how their, you know, bank was run and so they just started to contributing stuff and, you know, sharing their lessons with the end user community. We have other organizations, you know, like Spotify, which, you know, have done similar things where they've open sourced backstage to CNCF that kind of describes how internally they've done, you know, developer, you know, experience and kind of managing all the services internally and they've decided to share that with the world to learn from each other. So I think there's, there's kind of multiple avenues for end users to get involved, whether you could just simply be a passive listener and just learn from everyone. But ideally you would hopefully contribute some of your lessons learned within your organization, but we essentially don't discriminate in one form or another. We allow end users from all different kind of walks in life and part of, and wherever they are as part of their cloud need of journey to participate. That was an amazing introduction actually. Thank you for sharing your vision of how the end users are centered within the community. Maybe I could just add a quick, because we've seen increasing numbers of projects coming from end user organizations like Chris mentioned Capital One, Spotify, there's several examples. And I think it's really indicative of how there are still some problems to be solved in making it really easy to build and ship and deploy cloud native applications, you know, a lot of the pieces are in place but there are still things that can be improved. And in many of these examples, end user organizations are the people who are rubbing up against those problems and they're in the best place to innovate with those problems. So it's really great to see, you know, those problems being identified and solutions being identified and brought back to the community. And it's really, you know, valuable input from, you know, building above those kind of core components like Kubernetes to getting closer to the real problems that developers are hitting day to day. Yeah, I think historically, you know, end users have not really been involved with, you know, a lot of open sourcing and so on they were consumers and I think especially in the last decade we've seen that switch from it's not only the, the innovation is not only coming from the vendors and users hitting problems at scale or with vendor solutions and they've been a little bit more progressive these days and sharing some of those publicly. I remember when I started my career, banks, like it was even impossible to do stuff like almost outside the firewall with bank and now you're seeing banks like Bloomberg and others, you know, Fidelity, you know, Capital One sharing these things working in the open so it's just kind of nice to see the shift happen in the industry. Yeah, there was a, hey everyone, Priyanka here. I mentioned this in one of my keynotes at last year's KubeCon Cloud Native Cons is we're seeing this virtuous cycle of innovation where end users are coming in and being welcomed into the cloud native ecosystem they're trying out our technologies using them battle testing them and putting as much pressure as possible and then finding areas where they could bring something new and that's where end user projects are born. Then they donate those then they become even a deeper part of the ecosystem, then they influence new product creation from the vendors and so the cycle kind of goes in a really positive way. And I think being end user driven open source at CNCF has been super useful for everyone involved because of that virtuous cycle. These were actually great answers and thank you for joining us, Brianka. Great to have to have you as well here. I would like to focus a bit more on the role of the TSEs and how this can actually impact the growth of the end user community and make it easier for the end user community to be to be involved. So I have a questions more for Feliz and Ricardo. Last year, the TSEs actually focused on streamlining the sandbox entry process for the projects and now the TSEs are looking to revise the incubation criteria and guidelines for again the incubation projects. So you took us through some of the motivations behind those changes and how exactly could potentially make it easier for the end users to contribute back to the community. Yeah, I could start with this so the sandbox is relatively new we've probably had it now for two or three years maybe three years but so it wasn't part of the original model that we had, but we realized that there was there was demand for a place for experimentation and projects where people wanted to collaborate. They didn't necessarily have a home that they could do that in and we wanted to be able to offer that so the sandbox was really always intended to be a space for experimentation. And over time we kind of tweaked a bit what the definition of sandbox really means like how good does a project need to be to get into the sandbox. The answer is actually the bar is really very low, but one of the things that we did trying to streamline the process was clarify what we're looking for in a sandbox project and clarify the extent to which it really is experimental. We're not really making any claims at all about how good a project, something is if it's in sandbox level. But we stream like that so we've got a much more efficient process so that if you do have a project, and you want it to sort of start benefiting particularly from the collaborative nature of CNCF sandbox projects don't get any marketing push but they do get a lot of the ability to what they're mutually owned for a start. And it's a good starting point to jump off from into incubation. Incubation has always been the really hard bar to get past you have to be, you know, demonstrably cloud native we do a lot of due diligence around the governance of the project the technology in the project, whether people are genuinely using it in production cases. Incubation is still not fully de risk, but we do expect a project to be on a pretty solid path. And we, we're working on kind of streamlining that not to change the, the bar, the definition will essentially remain the same. But some of the ways in which we go about collecting that information for due diligence we realized we could rationalize that we currently getting lots of help from what currently called the six the special interest groups they're going to be renamed to technology advisory groups just to avoid confusion. They're helping us with that due diligence and we kind of needed to clarify more the boundaries between what we're expecting the, the, the sigs the tags to do and what the TOC needs in order to make the judgment and essentially just trying to streamline the efficiency of that process make it much more sort of straightforward so that a project. You know, it does take there's a significant amount of work goes into due diligence so it is still going to take weeks but we want to get it more into the kind of scope of a small number of months rather than a giant six month eight month process. Ricardo do you want to add anything to that. I think that that's a very good description. One of the things that is very good in this area is that all this idea of sandbox incubation and eventually graduation gives a really good feeling about the project to the end users as well. It's very important to have the as much as possible in this kind of heterogeneous environment with many different projects doing different things, but to have some, some nice criteria where things move towards this process and then as an end user people can can just rely a bit on this. There's a lot more things like the technology radar is where where more feedback will be very useful also for people to make their choices. But to having this this bar that projects have to go through and some sort of strict criteria they have to comply to it's quite useful for for end users. I think it's a it's a it's a work that is really valuable for for everyone. I also asked Ricardo, actually a little bit more about your role in particular because you are one of the end user representatives on the TOC. So we now have four out of 11 to see members from end user organizations like Apple and Spotify and yourself from Sun. So what do you see as your role and responsibility, and maybe even you can talk about why you are interested in being on the TOC. Yeah, so I think the one of the interests of being the TOC is really to help the community like we get every end user gets a lot back and it's kind of our responsibility also to give as much as possible back to the community. The responsibilities are similar to other members just the point of view is kind of different. We participate more on the end user gatherings. And we hear what other people are requirements and what their feelings are in the different areas. And our role is really to give this input when when the TOC has to make decisions or some sort of due diligence to help out in this area because we are more probably closer to other end users and have a good feeling of what what what different projects are capable and how people feel about them. One thing that I also had the motivation to join the TOC is that because we are kind of in the research side. And we've seen like we were talking about how the community has been involved evolving. One thing that also happens is that end users get together themselves if the like the mainstream requirements are not like enough for their needs and this happens in the research community so we form this CNCF research user group. Where we try to accommodate more specific requirements from the research community so also one one idea is to to make those requirements more visible in the ecosystem. Because I think eventually everyone will need them but maybe maybe the research community can can be the one that pushes them forward first. Yeah, I definitely agree that it's really important to bring out the view points from the end users and expose that to the TOC so that you get a different view of the problems that are coming direct from end users. And the research user group that Ricardo you mentioned is a great example of that and actually Ricardo also chairs. He's too modest to mention this but he also chairs that group. So I'm really grateful for everything that you do, Ricardo, for this community. Thank you. Yeah, but I stress again that this is the good thing is that it's really a vibrant community where these things happen by themselves. The end user group again is the research user group is a very good example that just came up out of CookCon and people getting together over lunch and then forming this. It's actually good in degree more. It's great to see so it's like such a good representation of end users in the TOCs as well and in the community. So I'm definitely looking forward to to see how far it actually gets us. I've actually, I have a question for Priyanka Meili. I mean, actually she touched upon this earlier. During the, your keynote at KipCon and CloudNativeCon Europe in 2020, you have one of the key messages has been end user driven open source. Now, would you be able to expand a bit more on that, Priyanka? And what do you think is the nucleus of the end user community and how it actually can shape the overall ecosystem? Yes, absolutely. So end user driven open source. That is, has truly become our, a line that we and this foundation identify ourselves with. It's because of all that you have heard right now, right, that by having end users participating in our technical oversight committee, which is truly our, you know, not star body and having folks like Ricardo participate in it, you bring in this new perspective. I think referring back to what Chris was saying, this is a big change from how things used to be. By encouraging end users to be part of our community and ecosystem, not just as consumers, but evaluators, feedback givers by creators of technology, we've changed the way open source has been innovating. And not to say this wasn't happening before. But of course, there's been innovation from all kinds of companies, but by a focus on end users, I think the CNCF, CloudNative Computing Foundation has institutionalized, has set in stone that these engagements with end users will always happen. Their point of view will always be front and center. And that, to my mind is end user driven open source. It's actually very similar for any folks here in the audience who, you know, tried their hand at startups and product development. The whole idea right is customer driven development or user driven development. That's kind of what we're bringing to open source with end user driven open source here at CNCF. Nice stuff. I mean, I think I definitely agree. Of course, I definitely agree with this viewpoint. Liz, so let me direct the next question to you. At the last KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, you presented some predictions from the TOC and what projects you were seeing coming out. And I believe you're doing the same again for this set of keynotes. So maybe you can give us a bit of sneak peek about what you see is coming next. Yeah, so I don't want to steal too much thunder from my own keynote, but what I've done with that one is revisit those original predictions. And it's always a little bit hard to tell whether it kind of becomes self fulfilling because we've said we think these are interesting areas. But we have seen projects, particularly in the sandbox in all the five areas that we identified last time, in particular around the whole developer experience and operator experience side of things. So our TOC colleague, Harry, is also going to be taking part of that keynote and expanding a bit on some of the interesting changes that we're seeing in DevEx and OpEx. And then we have got a few more thoughts around, I mean, I think those five areas we previously discussed, it was Kubernetes on the Edge, it was Chaos Engineering, DevEx and OpEx was an EBPF and one more help me, Chris. I believe it was Chaos Engineering. No, Service Mesh was the other one. Chaos I said, Service Mesh was the fifth one. So I think those are all still areas where we're continuing to see innovation and consolidation. A couple of other things that we've highlighted. One is that multi cloud is real. You know, I remember sort of two or three years ago, people saying, oh, you know, cluster, it was all about multi cluster. It wasn't quite such a real thing back then. But now, you know, it is, it is, you know, it'd be really interesting to get a share of hands from folks on this call how many of you are actually engaged in multi cloud, you know, I think, both in terms of multiple public clouds, but also the hybrid cloud split between, you know, on-prem and public cloud. We're seeing some real solutions related to that. And I feel like that's become, you know, a real area of interest. Another one that I remember is AI. You know, it's, we're seeing, it makes a lot of sense that people are using the cloud, they're renting cloud resources to do machine learning training and, you know, building their models because they need giant amounts of compute resources to do that. So it's kind of inevitable that we're going to see more innovation, making machine learning and AI solutions easier to manage on the cloud. And that feels like a whole sort of new, quite big expansion area for cloud native. And I'd be really interested to hear other people's opinions on, you know, on whether that's also impacting on their lives. Chris is saying, EVPF obviously, yeah. Staring at your shirt. Yeah. I think the only thing I would add to that is seeing Kubernetes used as more, as kind of like what's called a cross-cloud control plane and running more workloads than are just containers, right? You know, Kubernetes may have started as purely focused on containers, but we're seeing it, you know, as a stretch to running, you know, VMs, AI-based workloads, orchestrating cloud-based services. I think, you know, people are just finding it useful as a control plane that could handle, you know, different types of workloads because at the end of the day you're orchestrating things across different machines and services. One thing I can say, I'm definitely looking forward to the keynotes tomorrow, so learning a bit more of these predictions within the cloud native ecosystem. We actually have a question from our end users and I'm going to read it out now. So the question is coming from Sergio and he is asking that now we are in an open source cold war where open source tech pioneers like elastic search field, they need to change the open source licenses. How is CNCF mediating this conflict? What should we do as end users and what we need to expect in the future? So would anyone like to get a start? I'll start first. So, you know, one of the premises of CNCF was always to allow permissive innovation, right? You know, we license all of our stuff under Apache 2.0, which basically allows end users, vendors, everyone to build innovative solutions on top of, you know, these wonderful projects without worrying too much about any crazy license obligations outside of attribution. So it's always been kind of how we've structured the organization and pushed ourselves towards basically permissive and permissionless basically innovation. There's obviously some vendors out there that, you know, have different attitudes and approaches to this based on whether, you know, you know, changes in business models or, you know, however they're kind of structured. I don't really see CNCF as an organization to kind of like, you know, mediate these things, you know, from our perspective, we really want to listen to our end users and, you know, if our vendors or end users have issue with things, we could always, you know, collaborate on a solution to work around these things. But in general, like, I don't really see CNCF as a mediator here. These are organizations making these decisions based on, you know, business needs or other influences. The only thing that on a personal level bothers me is when you have, you know, companies that essentially free ride on the permissive commons, you know, using a license like Apache and then changing to a more restrictive license. It personally pisses me off a little bit because it does cause a little consternation in the ecosystem and it does cause confusion when it comes to adoption on the product side. But in general, CNCF's role is not to be a mediator, we listen to our end users and vendors to kind of work, you know, with, you know, what happens in the ecosystem. So hopefully that answers your question, Sergio. And adding a sort of very much echoing that sentiment, I think we have seen how successful this organization has been based on Apache licenses, you know, permissive licenses allowed such great innovation and such great collaboration. And there are plenty of vendors surrounding this ecosystem who are managing to build successful businesses. Some of it open source, some of it proprietary. It feels like the permissive licensing at the heart of the core projects feels to me like that's been part of the reason for our success. So I hope it continues and I hope that the trend to continuing with permissive licenses continues for a long time to come. Thank you for tackling this. Yeah, tough question. Maybe to add a bit to that is just reinforced here is, I think the one worry here is that the communities themselves change. Like, like it was being said that this has been extremely successful in not only making open source popular but also some companies that traditionally were not so keen on open source to change their minds and have been highly participated. So, yeah, one of the worries that we kind of go back in time a bit. So, let's see how it continues. Amazing. So going next again if you have any questions please ask them. Otherwise, I would like to move with the next question which focus a bit more again on keep calm and some of the main themes that we'd like to or we see emerging. So are there any themes at the moment that you see kind of highlighted or any talks keynotes that you'd recommend for our end users to attend. I can start that one off. I think it is a manifestation of all of that this community has done together in the last greater than one year. We have all of you all of us we have worked through some incredible challenges. We have different geographical regions experiencing turmoil at different points of time and right now our hearts go out to what's happening in India and Brazil, even in parts of Canada, like so many parts of the global still suffering. But what this community has done is that it's kept moving forward together. What you see is the tagline for the show. And it's very intentional because through I touch on this a little bit in my keynote tomorrow but through this whole time cloud native has come in the community has kept your shipping at a great pace. Don't know what that says but we have been productive. People have really come together and supported each other I do you know if I'm feeling down I literally just needed to go tweet and someone would reply and have encouraging words have supported by words. And I've seen that happen not just for me but for others with each other. And I think we've been very resilient in this time, because we are made of a global force with so many different kinds of people coming together, and our mission is the same. We're on a cloud native to be ubiquitous. We're on this path of progress that is paved by our diversity by our resilience by our solidarity. So you will see that reflected everywhere in keep gone this whole week. One of the keynote that's really exciting is by Peloton and it's on the agenda you'll see. They talk about how they've navigated through the pandemic, gone fully cloud native and all the cool things that have happened for them. They are not an anomaly there's so many companies out there who've completely ramped up engineering workforces during the pandemic, as every company has become a digital company with like much faster speed, and so many folks have double down on cloud native. You'll see a lot of that in the various talks that really cloud native has become the building block of you the human experience in the pandemic. And I think that sets us up for success in the future. Like I said, there's so many areas where we are, you know, in the predictions that we're going to be critical and AI being a big one, and AI ML is taking a bigger and bigger role in society just because of all the information that we have now so you'll hear stories about all of that and I think while you meet people you'll hang out with folks, not quite the same as in person but it is definitely I think a bigger crowd to like we just have more than 25,000 people attending the show. And you have lots of friends to make lots of things to learn lots to give back. And I hope you enjoy it. And let me follow up on the last line that you said Priyanka about giving back. So what do you think are the best ways that end users can get involved and contribute back to the ecosystem that might open up the same to Liz, Ricardo, Chris. Sure, I mean there, you and users you are the heart and soul of what we're doing. We are building for you for your success. So, any minute you're able to spend with us in is a minute well spent and one that we value. So the simplest thing, enjoy the cube cons show up learn and take what you learn back to your organizations from there I mean I highly encourage attending the maintainer office hours learning from them and getting plugged in on their point of view about a project that you care about. As you get more involved or if you want some guidance as you get more involved I highly highly recommend the end user ecosystem that Cheryl and Katie runs so effectively. I think you know it's, it's a great way to be in a part of a community where it's everyone just a going through very similar on the same path to progress as you are, and you can have clear candid conversations about what's working for folks what's not working for us. And I've heard you know, I was actually reading this book about habit making. And in some ways we're all changing our cultures and the way we are old habits when we go cloud native. And one of the things the habit making book said was that the best way to ensure a habit sticks is to do it in a community. This can be that community for you your accountability buddies. So come to the end user ecosystem come to that community. And I think you will find that you accelerate your path to cloud native which ultimately is to delight your end users. I think you can take it as deep or as light of a role as you want Ricardo here is a great example of taking a deep role and you know having a stance, giving feedback to projects. But really, it's whatever you can spare is more than welcome, and you are always amazing. Liz, Ricardo, Chris. Yeah, I can add a couple of things. And so I think one thing when we talk about contributions, particularly in the, you know, world of open source, it definitely isn't all about code contributions code contributions are wonderful. As end users, you're also having experience of using these projects and I'm sure that every project out there is very keen to learn from your experiences and you know things like raising issues, letting maintainers know about any issues that you're having or scale problems or whatever, you know, things good or bad feedback on how the project is working for for you in your real life situations is hugely valuable to existing project maintainers. The last thing I would mention is the, what's currently called CNCF six they're going to be renamed to technology advisory groups or tags. They kind of sit under the TOC that Ricardo and I are on, and they are specialist, you know, areas of knowledge and experience and we lean on those groups for advice to us, and also advice to the end user community. So if you have people in your organizations who are really involved in, you know, security or observability or any of the others, I think seven altogether, getting involved with those groups sharing your experience helping write white papers, helping us understand where things are confusing to people, you know, joining the community, those are really, really valuable and yeah, having having folks from end user organizations getting more involved in those technology advisory groups would be really valuable. And I guess to kind of end the thought on this one is, you know, of all the kind of the companies I've worked with on the end user side, everyone has different problems somewhere a little bit more progressive than others and some are just like super early in the stage of their journey and sometimes they just have simple questions like, Hey, can you go talk to our legal team to explain open source or like hey, you know how do you potentially, you know, contribute upstream without any you know IP concerns. We are happy to work with end users from all different kind of walks of life so don't be afraid to kind of reach out to, you know, CNCF staff to kind of help guide you, you know, on your journey. Not everyone is as progressive as others when it comes to open source and then cloud native. Okay, I can just build on that then and just add to the list mentioned the six. There are also the end user groups that people can can reach out to and it's a very good way to get introduced to other people using the same products. I think one thing Liz mentioned which is giving feedback to the project themselves is critical. This is something that always has a very good reaction from from the project themselves. And then maybe I'll just mention also this technology radars that CNCF runs often. These are also very valuable reports being published in different areas regularly by Cheryl and CNCF end user. So this is this is extremely good. If you can provide feedback on those. It's always very welcome. And then in the in coupon, I think it's a very good, very good opportunity to, to reach out to people. There's very relaxed sessions I remember in the last coupon, I think also Katie and Cheryl where they ended up in a session, learning how to juggle and chatting with like random people and I know that. After that I at least kept contact with two or three that we followed up on things that we share and we, it's a very good way to introduce to the community as well. This absolutely fantastic so many ways to contribute as an end user so I hope all the attendees will make the best use of this, these channels and these opportunities. I know we kind of drawing close to the end of our panel, however, we still have one question from our end users and this is directed to Chris. And it sounds like this Chris you've mentioned that there would be more guidance from the CNCF and projects moving to a GPL like me know for final labs, etc. So a GPL is not is not on the allow list for dependencies at the moment. Is that correct to be able to expand on this. So, I mean, we have a very, you know, as I mentioned before CNCF is all about kind of permissive innovation, and so on so our allow list of licenses that projects can depend on are generally all permissive licenses like MIT other patchy things BSD and so on. The GPL is definitely a more restrictive license so it is not allowed. As I mentioned before there's been a trend in the industry to kind of change. You know, let's call it free writing on the permissive comments and changing from something they're going to patch it a GPL and so some of our projects are affected by this. We recently posted some guidance on the foundation foundation GitHub repo for our projects that we will be publicizing more next week but we're all a little bit busy a coupon but if you're interested in kind of reading the full details. So I posted in the chat from the foundation repo kind of gives a set three recommendations of projects, what they could do it could be as simple as using the old release, or getting together with partners and peers in industry and maybe forking that you know that old release and maintaining it in open so there's a different set of recommendations for folks and we plan to talk about talk about it more after you come next week. Thank you for responding to this one. So pretty much we were close to to the end of our panel. Are there any other remarks and ever suggestions recommendations for our end users and how they can make the best of keep calm. Anyone from the panel, like to take this one. I just wanted to add one piece, which is that in that spirit of being a diverse ecosystem of be having diversity power resilience, we innovated on the cube con cloud native con schedule as well, and two things that are new this time are a business value sub track which has a few talks around really cloud native one on one definitions how to sell open source internally things like that. So if you have colleagues in your company who you really think would benefit from this and would make your job easier. Feel free to send them that way that they're coming into this part of the ecosystem with us and will support you in your journey. One piece that we've added is for learners and students around the world. We've often heard that even our 101 content can be advanced for someone who is a learner or a student and may not have real time experience with large production systems so if you know anyone that are on your teams or in your life. Please feel free to send them this way to because we want to start supporting the path to progress that people make from as early as possible. And figured that a student sub track would be valuable and if people want to find any of these sessions just go on the schedule and click on student track or business value and you will have access to talks that we recommend for those experience levels. So just thought I'd mention that since that's something important to me. Oh and hallway track everybody should hang out there all the time. There's a lot of fun stuff happening and that is where you will hear when I'm doing happy hours for the community tomorrow and the day after. So join in we'll just be having fun talking playing music games just chill time for all and of course you're welcome to bring a beverage. Thank you this insights Bianca anything from Liz Ricardo Chris any last remarks. I think I would just say we really really do value input from the end user community things that are impacting you. Some of the things that have come up in the discussions earlier things like licenses we you know we'd love to hear what the real impact of this is for you know for end users who are dealing with stuff like that on the, you know, on the cold face as it were. So your input is hugely valuable. Thank you. Oh, and get ready. Oh, sorry, Chris. No, I was going to say, you know, you know, give us feedback how we can improve cube con in this event we primarily put on cube con for our end user community, even though may not be obvious we do put a lot of planning to make sure and users are happy with it so please we'll offer feedback and hopefully we'll be able to all see each other physically and in Los Angeles in, I guess that's four months or so from actually a little bit more than that in October. So, other than that yeah give us feedback we'd always want to improve and iterate on making you kind of better experience for all but hopefully this is my last one of my last virtual events. That is exactly what I was going to say fingers crossed last virtual only event done for LA in October. Hopefully, you know, many regions around the world will be able to travel. I was just thinking as we were talking here right as we would say things is like, I have no idea if that landed with this audience. This was valuable or not it's like, you know, you don't know what the reaction is and I, I can't wait to be in a room with you all there. We'll be talking rather than us broadcasting to you so cannot wait mark your calendars October 11 to 15. See you then. Ricardo, would you like to add anything? I would just say the same. I hope we can we can meet each other soon in person. This scope cons are very valuable but but in person ones are even more so I hope the next one will be when we get back to to be able to talk to each other in person. Looking forward. Oh, by the way, right after the event you will get an email about where you've gone clouded up on you 22 is happening. So, keep an eye out for that. Definitely looking for in person events and definitely looking forward for keep going Europe next year already. This one is not finished but I'm already looking forward for the next one. Thank you very much for all of our panelists and all of our attendees at the end user partner summit and all of your questions it was great to see what the actual end users are caring to talk more about and explore. We are excited to see how the end users are going to be shaping the future of cloud native ecosystem and more more than anything we're looking how the end user community is going to contribute back and we're looking for more forward to do those contributions as well. Well I have one more thing to add as well so if you want to learn a little bit more about your membership with CNCF and what you can do what you can get out of it. Then please come and join the end user lounge benefits edition which is going to run tomorrow at 330 CST. So we'll talk a little bit about the Linux Foundation training benefits you get the branding opportunities that help how that helps you with your recruiting and then how to collaborate with other members of the end user community as well. So thank you so much and have a fantastic cube con. Thank you very much. Thank you for tuning in.