 Good morning, and welcome to the 12th meeting of the Social Justice and Social Security Committee. Our first item of business today is a decision to take items 6, 7 and 8 in private. Are we all agreed? Thank you very much. We are agreed on that. At agenda item number two, we will consider the social security uprating miscellaneous amendment Scotland regulations 2022. Those regulations were laid on 16 March, replacing the draft laid on 28 January. At its meeting on 17 March, the minister told the committee that the regulations had been withdrawn following the Scottish Government's decision to upgrade some benefits by 6 per cent this year. I welcome to the meeting Ben Macpherson Minister for Social Security and Local Government. The minister is joined by Scottish Government officials who are all joining us remotely. We have Simon Hoot, who is the head of cross-cutting policy unit. Camilo Arendondo, Solicitor and Dominic Merlin, Economic Advisor of Social Security Analysis. I invite the minister to make an opening statement. Thank you, convener, and good morning to colleagues in person and online. I welcome this opportunity to assist the committee in its consideration of the draft social security uprating Scotland miscellaneous amendment regulations 2022. I would like to once again register man's sincere gratitude to the committee for accommodating the last minute changes to the scrutiny process for those regulations. When I attended the committee two weeks ago, I took the opportunity to update members on the changes that we have made to those regulations in order to urgently provide additional support to people in response to the cost of living pressures. The relayed regulations now provide the additional support by further increasing several forms of devolved social security benefits and assistance from the previously proposed 3.1 per cent increase up to a 6 per cent increase. The 6 per cent upgrade will apply to young carers grant, funeral support payment, the three best start grants and job start payment, and we will bring forward future regulations that will also affect the increase in carers allowance supplement. We will also now increase child winter heating assistance by 6 per cent, greater than the 5 per cent previously proposed, supporting over 19,000 families of severely disabled children with heating costs. As the committee is aware, we had already taken the decision to double the Scottish child payment from £10 to £20 per week, a 100 per cent increase that will immediately benefit around 111,000 children. Last week, the cabinet secretary announced a further increase to the Scottish child payment, increasing it to £25 per week per child by the end of 2022, when we will also extend the payment to under 16s. That is a 150 per cent increase on the current rate. Scottish Government analysis estimates that this will lift 50,000 children out of relative poverty in 2023-24, reducing the relative child poverty rate by 5 per cent points. Moreover, we increased best start foods in August 2021 from £4.25 to £4.50 a week, a 5.88 per cent rise that exceeds the September CPI rate of inflation and is close to the 6 per cent up-rate for other benefits. In terms of child disability payment and adult disability payment, it was necessary for us to match the DWP and keep the up-rate at 3.1 per cent. As I stated to Parliament recently, this is in order to meet the terms of the agency agreement that we have in place with DWP, but also, importantly, to avoid creating a two-tier system during case transfer. We must not create a system where individuals paid by Social Security Scotland are paid more than clients whose cases have not yet transferred to the Scottish system, because clearly that would not be fair. I hope that this has been a helpful summary for members and subject to parliamentary approval. The new rates that I have described and are set out in the regulations will come into force tomorrow. We have worked at pace to change the regulations to directly help families and carers. We wanted to make sure that we were using the powers that we have to help those in need who are facing rising costs. We know that some other benefits that they may be receiving are not keeping up with the cost of living pressures, unfortunately. I thank the committee again for its scrutiny of the up-routine regulations and its co-operation around the need for urgent changes. I also thank my Scottish Government officials and those at Social Security Scotland who have worked to implement that. I trust that colleagues will welcome and support those regulations. We will now move to a few questions from members. We have two themes, the first one is roundabout questions, surrounding up-rating for inflation and the second is increases not related to up-rating. I have Pam Duncan-Glancy, a colleague who is joining us remotely who will start us off on theme 1, followed by Marie McNair, who joins remotely as well. Over to you Pam. Thank you. Good morning. I thank the committee and the minister for joining us this morning and for setting out what you have. I thank the officials too. Firstly, I would like to say that although Scottish Labour will vote for this, because not to do so would mean no increase for anyone. However, I would like to again put on record my disappointment that we are not doing anything to upgrade disability and carers benefits and that they too are facing the cost of living. We should be using all the powers of this Parliament to address that. Last week, the IFS said to the committee that the up-rating by 6 per cent was well-meaning but badly designed, and I have to say that I agree. It all feels very ad hoc, which I do not believe is a way to manage public funds. One SSI said that some things are going to be upgraded that would not be upgraded at all, and literally overnight it was removed. So, on the Monday, the Government still thought that 3.1 per cent was fine, and on the Wednesday they thought better of it and came to the right decision to up-rate to 6 per cent. In addition, some benefits are being upgraded by amounts that do not align with inflation, so it feels like that is all very much grace and favour, and families cannot live like that. Will the minister commit to automatically upgrading Scottish benefits in line with inflation in the coming years? Will the Government also commit to upgrading adult disability payment and child disability payment in line with the rest when the transfer process is complete? First of all, we have seen a significant increase in inflation and cost of lowering pressures from the September CPI that was not anticipated at that time because of various events. So, using the flexibilities that we have in our system and within the regulations, we did seek to urgently make those changes, utilising the 2018 act as we could. The position, as she knows, is in terms of why we use the September CPI as set out in the 2018 act, and that was agreed by Parliament in the course of the bill that culminated in the 2018 act. The other point with regard to the fact that we have increased Scottish child payment at a higher rate is, of course, because of an election commitment to double the Scottish child payment. The action from the cabinet secretary last week in terms of the further increase to £25 that will take place is, of course, based on our child poverty delivery plan and making sure that we are doing what we need to do to meet the binding targets in that act. Members will be aware that the Scottish child payment as well as being a new benefit is, of course, an innovation from the Scottish Government and much of the determination to increase it in the way that we have, and that is a collective determination across parties, because we have seen the reduction in universal credit, so there was an even more significant determination from MSPs across the chamber to see that increase to the Scottish child payment to help households at this time. Thank you very much Minister. Pam, is that you complete with your question on there? It would be okay, convener, to consider the Scottish child payment and others uprating not in terms of inflation. Just now, would you want me to wait until Maureen Metinair comes in and then I can come back in on theme 2, of which would you confirm? I think that if you just go for it just now, Pam, just because we are so tight for time, that would be very helpful. Thank you. I much appreciate it. I thank the minister for that answer. Of course, I appreciate and understand the mechanisms in the 2018 act that are available to the minister. It was more the sudden change in a matter of days that I was more concerned of. Moving on now to the uprating that is not in relation to inflation, can the minister explain why there is no uprate at all to carers allowance supplement? I know in your opening statement that you said that you will do something about that in the future. Could you tell us when that will be? Are you sure that that will be very helpful for unpaid carers? Could I also ask what the Government intends to do for the 150,000 children that are on bridging payments and the 177,000 children who are getting no Scottish child payment at all just now because roll-out hasn't happened? Could you explain to the committee and others what the Government is going to do for them before December this year? Thank you. I will take those questions for the one on bridging payments first, if I may, and then follow thereafter. As a committee, we will be aware that the Scottish child bridging payments are an interim measure, providing immediate support to around 144,000 school-aged children from low-income households ahead of the roll-out of the Scottish child payment by the end of 2022, in full, to those under 16, which will be delivered following receipt of the necessary data from DWP. Of course, we have discussed that previously. The bridging payments make use of existing data available to local authorities and awarded over £76 million for eligible families in 2021. A further £520 will be paid in 2022, with £130 being paid for eligible children ahead of the Easter holidays coming up. School-aged children will benefit from the increased value of the Scottish child payment that I set out before by the end of 2022, at which point around 430,000 children and young people will be eligible for the benefit. There will be a part of the bridging payment happening in the coming weeks. Of course, we have set out how we will roll out the full extension of the Scottish child payment in the course of the rest of this year. In terms of the Scottish carers assistance, as I have alluded to in my opening statement today and at the committee two weeks ago, there is a different process for implementing carers allowance supplement up-rate. We will also be using the 6 per cent figure to upgrade carers allowance supplement, as I emphasised in my opening statement. We are currently exploring options for implementing that, including how we might apply inflation setting powers, as provided for in section 81 of the Social Security Act 2018. That will ensure that the increase is reflected in the summer payment. We are currently in the process of implementing that 6 per cent up-rate to the supplement, and we will, of course, keep the committee informed as appropriate as we progress that work. Thank you very much, minister. I now move on to questions from Marie McNair, who joins us remotely, to be followed by Emma Roddick, who joins us in the room. Thank you, convener, and good morning, minister. Just a follow-up on the carers allowance supplement. As you know, minister in Scotland, we have introduced the supplement because of the failure over the last 45 years by successive Westminster Governments to align carers allowance with other income replacement benefits. In your continued conversations with Westminster DWP ministers, have you received any indication that are minded to write them wrong? If they did, could you best free up the Scottish Social Security Resources to be invested in other areas of our Social Security budget? That is an important question for a number of reasons. First of all, when we went through the process of the 2018 act, of course, bringing in that the supplement was so that carers allowance would match jobseekers allowance, and we would continue to urge UK ministers to give that sense of equity across the UK, and that would provide not only the support for those in Scotland but in other places. I think that that emphasises another important point that is under consideration across all the evaluation of what we are doing on operating. Of course, if we had seen operating and appropriate support from the chancellor and the spring statement just last week for reserved benefits, that would have provided important additional support to families in Scotland and across the rest of the UK. I think that it is extraordinary that the chancellor did not provide any support to those on benefits through his spring statement, a significant wrong and mistake, in my view. To believe that that is a missed opportunity to help those in great need, minister? Absolutely, a significant missed opportunity to do the right thing. I would urge the chancellor and all UK ministers to press upon him the need for the UK Government to use its significant taxation and fiscal and monetary powers to do more for those on benefits, especially at this time. I think that we will acknowledge the higher up rating of those benefits as well, given the cost of living prices. Can you also highlight what else has been done to assist the pressures on families? You will know that we are acutely aware of the many pressures that families face due to higher energy bills, in particular the increases to the weekly shop, the increase in national insurance from the UK Government and interest rates. Of course, we have our £290 million cost of living package that builds on our existing support, with £150 to households receiving a council tax reduction, irrespective of what their band property is, and the £150 to other households in band A to D properties. Of course, there are the number of measures that were announced by the Cabinet Secretary last week in the tackling child poverty delivery plan, including in the view of me and many, the action to mitigate the benefit cap. Of course, that comes on top of action that the Scottish Government has taken for a number of years to mitigate the bedroom tax. With the resources and powers that we have, we are doing what we can to help them. I will now bring Emma Roddacken, followed by Jeremy Balfour. Thank you, minister. You touched earlier on the need for increases to disability and cater benefits to be linked to UK rate. Do you believe that the UK Government should be upgrading those benefits, which would in turn allow the Scottish Government to do the same? For clarity, of course, we are going to upgrade the care allowance up by 6 per cent, but with disability benefits, we are just a number of months in still to the full roll-out of child disability payment. We successfully launched adult disability payment in our first pilot area on Monday 21. I know that we have a further session on case transfer shortly, convener, but, as we undertake both the twin aspects of work of launching our new benefits and undertaking case transfer, we have to make sure that people are receiving the same amounts, whether they are a Scottish recipient of a UK disability benefit or a Scottish recipient of a Social Security Scotland benefit. That is why we have only operated child disability payment and adult disability payment by the September CPI of 3.1 per cent, because that is what is happening with personal independence payment and disability living allowance for working-age adults at UK level. Should the UK Government have done more for those benefits at UK level, yes, that would have allowed us to raise child disability payment and adult disability payment by higher amounts to match what the UK Government had done. I continue to urge them to consider that and do it. Thank you. Thank you very much. I will move to Jeremy Balfour, followed by Foisal John. Good morning minister, and good morning to your team as well. I have a couple of questions. Firstly, I know evidence from David Phillips from the Institute of Physical Studies. He talked about a cliff edge for some families, and I am just wondering what work you and your team are doing on this. In the case where, if you take on extra hours, there will be a fear of losing out on the eligibility of SCP, and at the right time I won't go into it, presumably. I just wonder what mitigation is there around that and what thinking has been done. My second question is just going back to Pam Duncan Clancy's question, which I don't think I have an answer to. Once ADP is fully transferred and is being run by Social Security Scotland, is your intention to then increase that benefit as you have increased the benefits that are now being run by the agency? Once all the transfers are taken place, do you see a further increase happening or do you see it staying aligned to the UK figure? Thank you for those two questions. Taking the first one with regard to the evidence received from the IFS with regard to the considerations and suggestions that a high value of Scottish child playments could create a cliff edge with regard to making it more difficult for families to increase their working hours in terms of universal credit. We recognise that high values of Scottish child payment could, potentially, in some circumstances. I think that people are motivated—we need to remember that—but it could reduce work incentives from an analytical perspective for some claimants on the margin of exceeding the universal credit earnings limit, whereby increasing their working hours could be at risk of losing universal credit and, therefore, Scottish child payment entitlement. By analysing universal credit award data, we have observed no evidence of this in Scotland's economy to date. However, as you would expect, we continue to monitor the potential issue, because it is an important one. The Scottish child payment is paid as a top-up of reserve benefits using powers available to us under section 79 of the Social Security Scotland Act 2018. That means that, when someone drops off their qualifying benefit—for example, universal credit—we have no legal means to continue to pay the Scottish child payment, so that is why it is important. We have committed to review the legislative footing on which Scottish child payment is based, once the payment is rolled out to those who are responsible for children under 16. To conclude on that point, more broadly, Scottish child payment can positively impact work incentives of claimants by reducing the financial labour market barriers, such as helping to fund childcare costs to enable increased working hours. It also has a very positive effect, so we just need to emphasise that. In the 2018 act, we committed to operating with the member discussing that when I sat on the committee not so long ago. As we move into the position of delivering adult disability payment and child disability payment, we will have to think about those questions very seriously. How do we make sure that our payment levels are appropriate for the cost of living of individuals? Can you help me to carry out a review? Roughly when will that review take place, just so that we, as a committee, or maybe you could write to us once the review has started? Can we ensure that it is something that we would want to look at as well, and just the review in regard to how the benefits are working with child benefit once it has been worked out? Do you have a rough date of when that review might be happening? In terms of the review of the legislative footing, I can come back to you on the review of the legislative footing on which Scottish child payment is based. I think that that would be the best course of action. Thank you very much. I think that that would be very helpful minister for us. I will now move to a question from Foisal Choudry. Thank you, convener. Good morning, minister. I have a couple of questions. What can the Scottish Government do to give clarity to the definition of kingship care? Will legislative change be considered? You are asking a question ahead of yourself. That is the last time. All right, sorry. I came in late. We have no more questions for members on this part of the proceedings, so we will move to the formal debate on the motion, if that is okay. That is okay. I remind committee that only members and the minister may take part in the formal debate, and I invite the minister to move the motion. Thank you very much. I do not see any indications from any members that they wish to speak on the motion. As no member wishes to speak in the debate, I will put the motion to the members. The question is that the motion S6M-03675 be approved. Are we all agreed? We are all agreed. Thank you very much for that. The motion is therefore approved, and I invite the committee to agree that the clerks and I will produce a short factual report of the committee's decision and arrange to have it published later today. Is that agreed with everybody? Agreed. We will now suspend briefly to allow a changeover of officials on blue jeans. We will now move on to an evidence session with the minister on case transfer. This session will allow members to discuss arrangements for case transfer from DWP to Social Security Scotland for those on disability benefits. The minister is now joined by Kate Thompson McDermott, unit head, Careers Benefits and Case Transfer Policy, who is joining us in the room, and David Halberg, team leader at Case Transfer Policy, Kelly Blair, solicitor at the Scottish Government. He is also joined by Jane Goodyear, senior leader of disability and careers benefit at Social Security Scotland, who all join us online. I welcome you all to this meeting, and I invite the minister to make a short opening statement. Thank you, convener. Thank you for inviting me to give evidence today on the case transfer of devolved disability and career benefits. I am grateful for the work of the committee today in considering case transfer provisions for clients whose awards are moving from disability allowance to child disability payment, and from personal independence payment to adult disability payment. The Scottish Commission on Social Security has recently reported on draft regulations to ensure that Scottish adults in receipt of disability living allowance can also move on to adult disability payment in cases where they would otherwise be required by the DWP to apply for personal independence payment, and we hope to lay at the final regulations for the committee's consideration in May. As I have set out to the committee before, case transfer is not a simple administrative process. It is a complex transfer of data forms, evidence and legal entitlement. We are transferring and then refining data from a variety of legacy systems used by the department for our conventions, some of which are decades old onto our new single system that will be used to administer all forms of Scottish assistance. We are transferring between two different government agencies, each with its own policies and procedures, and we are transferring between two different regulatory schemes established by two different parliaments. We have worked with the experience panels and other key stakeholders to design a process with dignity and respect at its heart as we undertake the case transfer process. It is through this intensive stakeholder engagement that we have developed our five case transfer principles. One, no-one will be required to apply for their Scottish assistance as part of the transfer process. Two, clients will continue to receive the right payment at the right time. Three, after adult disability payment launches nationally, wherever possible, people's awards will be transferred before they would be subject to a DWP face-to-face assessment. Four, we will complete the transfer process as soon as possible while ensuring that it remains safe and secure. Five, we will clearly communicate with our clients and that is important. Seven, around 700,000 people will have their disability and carer benefits transferred from the Department for Work and Pensions to Social Security Scotland in line with those principles. Our top priority is to ensure the safe and secure transfer for all, and we will endeavour to complete the transfer in 2025. If, during the process, we find that it is possible to accelerate the rate of case transfer for any of the benefits, while still meeting the requirement that it is safe and secure, then we absolutely will. Convener, also importantly, this is a joint programme of work with the Department for Work and Pensions. We rely on their support to match our timetable and we rely on them to provide us with the right data and information in the right format at the right time in line with processes that we have jointly developed. We are grateful for their collaboration in that thus far. As you are aware, the transfer from disability living allowance for children to child disability payment started in October 2021. A significant number of children and young people are now receiving child disability payment because of their award being transferred. Personal independence payment awards are due to start transferring to adult disability payment this summer. We continue to agree processes with DWP on a benefit-by-benefit basis to ensure that no one experiences a disruption in their awards. It is vital that people continue to receive their awards on time and, of course, the right amount. We will continue to keep the committee updated as this work continues to progress. I am proud of what we have all been able to deliver to date, despite the challenges that we have all faced as a result of the pandemic, and that we have done so on top of delivering 12 new benefits, including creating Scottish child payment, delivering the two coronavirus carers allowance supplements, designing a new and inclusive application and decision-making process, and making provision for indefinite awards for the recently launched adult disability payment. A lot has been done and there is a lot to do ahead. I welcome this opportunity to assist the committee in its consideration of case transfer and look forward to questions from members. Thank you very much for that minister. I will now move to questions from members. Our first group of questions is roundabout the transfer from personal independence payment over to adult disability payment. I am going to invite Jeremy Balfour to start us off, followed by Pam Duncan-Glancy and Maria McNair, who are remote. Thank you and good morning to your team. I should point out that I am present on PIP and will transfer to ADP at some point, hopefully successfully, so I declare that as an interest. Just a couple of questions around this minister. I think that you said that you will be laying the regulations in May. Did I hear that correctly? That is the regulations with regard to DLA working-age adults. In regard to PIP to ADP, when will detailed guidance on case transfer be published? Have you got a date for publishing that yet? The guidance on personal independence payment to adult disability payment transfer is available on our mygov.scot website. We intend to publish more detailed guidance in May. We will make the committee aware of when that happens. Will that guidance be information or how will somebody know, say—I am on PIP at the moment—how much notice will be given to people when they are going to be transferred to ADP? Obviously, it is quite a long time. Has it been done geographically or alphabetically and how much notice will a person be given to know that they are then transferred from DWP to a new agency? I will bring Kate in shortly on the guidance, if there is any more to add on that, but in terms of the notice. All DWP cases that have a Scottish Postcode used as part of the person's record will be flagged for transfer on the DWP's systems. When the selection criteria agreed with DWP is met, for example, the personal independence payment to adult disability payment, where the person's independence payment award is due to be reviewed, then the individual's case will be selected for transfer. Once selected for transfer, DWP will send us the data, the forms and evidence that we need to set up the person's Scottish award. At this point, we will write out to the person at this time explaining that their case has been selected for transfer and outlining when we expect the transfer to complete. Then, 13 to 17 weeks later, the transfer will be complete in most cases. That means that the Scottish assistance will begin and the DWP-administered benefit will simultaneously end. That timing can be accelerated where the client meets the special rules for telling the illness. We can also vary the timing in some cases with the agreement of the DWP. We will write out to the person again at the end of their case transfer process telling them what their Scottish award is, how much they will receive and when and outlining their rights and obligations, just as we would if they had made a successful application. That is with regard to those who will be selected for transfer because of their circumstances. I talked about one of the triggers for selecting a case being if they were up for transfer. The award was due to be reviewed by the DWP for PIP. We will prioritise the transfer of Scottish clients with personal independence payment awards, where they would otherwise be subject to a DWP review that could require a face-to-face assessment. For example, where a client reports a relevant change of circumstances or, as I said, is scheduled to have their personal independence payment award reviewed or end. That is what we call natural case transfer, and that is where we will start. Then we have the process of beginning to transfer clients that do not fit into one of those categories thereafter, and we call that managed case transfer. That will begin next spring 2023. I think that you have covered most of it quite well. We have some general information on the case transfer process for PIP to ADP and for working-age disability living allowance on the mic of sighting. I am happy to forward links after this to what is already available. We will progressively update that with more detail as we get closer to the case transfers happening. There are roadshows under way that Social Security Scotland is running on adult disability payment, and they will include some general information on case transfer. I will do some specific ones on case transfer in due course. We will continue to produce guidance for stakeholders and other bodies. Those will be supporting people through these transfer processes and very much near the time of launch. The decision making guidance will also be published, which will be a helpful source of information for people moving forward. The last thing to say is that we are currently developing and testing our notifications of intent to transfer. That is the kind of letter that legally triggers the case transfer moves, as the minister said. We will make sure that we set out clearly the processes that will occur through that case transfer process and signpost people to where they can get further advice and help to make sure that that is clearly set out in those letters. I think that that is helpful because we live and breathe day in and day out, but there are lots of people out there who I think are just wanting that reassurance. I think that that is really helpful. I think that it is helpful that you said that those who have long-term conditions will not have to go through the same assessment period as we do at the moment for PIP under DWP. When people are transferred, if they are, say, two years away from a review, will they be told that that review will not need to take place anymore? Again, how are you making that decision about who is already on PIP but maybe coming up for a review two or three years down the road? Will they be told at that point that that review will not be taking place or that will be something that will be happening once everybody has been transferred? I will bring Kate and or David in shortly. With regard to indefinite awards or more generally in terms of review, you will know that Social Security Scotland reviews will be light touch and less frequent than in the current DWP system. Once clients have been transferred to Social Security Scotland after a period, there will be a review of their case. At that point, if an indefinite award is appropriate, that is something that will be considered. Of course, as that review is undertaken, after the outcome of that review has been completed, the client will be able to utilise all the other aspects of the enhanced system that we are delivering in terms of being able to challenge a decision in the way that we have set out and all the other support that the ADP will deliver that is not available in the DWP system. Have you set yourself a time scale for how long that review will take place? You are transferred over on 1 January because that is in a certain period. I hope that it will be light touch, but there is still a possibility that your benefit might be taken away for how long will that review take from the day that you are transferred over. Is that a target date set for that? I might ask Jane to come in on a second on general timescales for conducting reviews by Social Security Scotland, because that will apply across all the new applications and case transferies. For natural case transfers, those that are moving over because they have reported a relevant change of conditions or they were due an award renewal or an award end, we will review those cases once the transfer process is complete. We have committed to doing that as soon as reasonably practicable and that is on the face of the legislation. The way that we are interpreting that is that an absolute maximum that should be within a year of the notice of intent to transfer, but we would hope that that was done as soon as possible and quicker than that in the majority of circumstances. For those transferring from PIP to ADP, there should not be too much more evidence gathering required, just focusing on any changes in condition, but there might be circumstances in which we need further and more evidence as part of that process. For those who are coming through managed case transfer, so there has not been a natural case transfer trigger, we will honour the review dates that are set for their PIP awards. We will set out clearly in the notice of determination that we will review their case and it will be a light touch Social Security Scotland review rather than a DWP style review, but we will match that review date in the first instance just to give that continuity and uncertainty. As the minister mentioned, if at that review point it is likely that an indefinite award would be appropriate then, obviously that would absolutely be considered as it would be as part of the reviews for any of the natural case transfers. Just before I bring Pam Duncan Glancy in on that, I do have a question of my own on the back of Jeremy's questions there. I know of a handful of people who have contacted me in the last couple of weeks who were expecting to be on a natural transfer pathway from PIP to ADP, who are now all of a sudden being triggered with reviews from the DWP that they were not expecting. They had letters that said that they would not be reviewed until the end of 2022 and all of a sudden there seems to be this flurry of people in that situation. Are those individuals now going to be subject to a managed transfer process or are they going to be slightly longer to get on to ADP? There seems to be a lot of confusion from people who are now subjected to reviews that they were not expecting. I cannot comment on the individual cases, as you would expect, but that is certainly a trend that has not been brought to our attention as of yet. I do not know whether the constituents of MSP or our convener, as appropriate, might want to write to me on that point. We can consider engagement with DWP on the matter, because we are certainly not aware of people having reviews that were not anticipated. Our case transfer process, when it initiates, will be people who are subject to an upcoming DWP review that would be part of the natural case transfer at the beginning of our process. We will be interested to hear more details on that. Those who might come to shortly, but those who are on working-age adult DLA, we have managed to secure a pause in their considerations of moving over to PIP so that they are then brought into our system. We will probably get on to those on DLA shortly and say more about that then. I am definitely happy to write to you on that. It is reassuring to me that there is not a trend that has already been noticed by yourself in that regard, so that is helpful. I will bring in Pam Duncan Glancy. Thank you, convener. When Sam H, Scottish Association for Mental Health, gave evidence to the committee, they estimated that the delay by a year of adult disability payment meant that about 141,000 people in Scotland were going to remain on PIP or enter the PIP system. They would otherwise have been eligible for ADP. I think that they estimated 55,000 of those people have a mental health problem, with a large proportion having to go through face-to-face assessments by PIP, which, of course, will have caused a great deal of distress. To mitigate that, they asked for a rapid transfer of people to come from ADP for PIP, who successfully made a PIP application during the delay period. Is that something that the Government would consider? I thank Pam Duncan Glancy for highlighting the evidence from Sam H that was given, and I recall that session, and it was an important session of the committee that took evidence on. You will appreciate that we have to be both pragmatic and responsible in how we undertake safe and secure transfer and the way that I have set out with those who are selected for transfer in terms of natural case transfer and then managed case transfer thereafter, and going as quickly as possible. After we launch adult disability payment nationally on 29 August, we will do all that we can to ensure that no one in Scotland will undergo a PIP reassessment for disability benefits wherever possible, because the natural case transfer that will take place in that regard. If someone in receipt of personal independent payment reports a change in condition after adult disability payment is launched nationally, we will transfer the Clients Award to Social Security Scotland so that they do not undergo an assessment with the DWP. Similarly, no Scottish Clients will be referred for a review of their personal independent payment awards or apply for an advanced personal independent payment award after adult disability payment launches nationally, as we will prioritise transferring those cases before those points are reached. For those reasons, prioritising the specific group of clients for case transfer would not reduce the number of DWP medical assessments that they would be subject to. I understand the frustration that clients may have, because they had to claim a DWP benefit in the sketch to the heart of Pam Duncan Glancy's question, where they could have applied for a Scottish benefit had they launched earlier. However, I do not think that it would be fair or appropriate to prioritise transferring the benefits of clients who have recently applied for DWP benefits over those who have been in the DWP system for many years. There is a balance of fairness to consider there. I understand and share the desire to move clients' benefits to our new system as quickly as possible, and our priority is to ensure that those benefits are transferred safely and securely. As I have said previously, if during the process of case transfer we find that it is possible to accelerate the rate of case transfer while still meeting the requirement that it is safe and secure, then we absolutely will. Minister, when looking at preparing the PIP to ADP transfer, are there any lessons that have been learned from the initial disability living allowance to child disability transfer process that you would like to highlight? We have learned a lot of important lessons. I do not want to say lessons because we have not made mistakes, but as part of undertaking the transfer from disability living allowance for children to child disability payment, that process has helped to refine our systems and given us insight into the case transfer process ahead of adult disability payment, which is helpful. As I laid out in my opening statement, the magnitude of the task at hand in both volume and complexity and dealing with different systems and legal processes is very significant in the case transfer process. It was both wise and sensible to undertake case transfer in the phased and systematic and scheduled way in which we are. We sit in a strong position because of the way that we have approached case transfer generally, but we are in a stronger position as we undertake adult disability payment and, of course, we will undertake carers thereafter. Thank you. On the issue of terminal illness claims, given that the highest rate of an ability component will also be awarded in ADP terminal illness claims, will those claims be a priority for transfer in the same way that they are to child disability payment? I will bring Kate in on that shortly because it is an important point. Since we launched adult disability payment on 21 March, we have seen the welcome that there has been in the most difficult of circumstances for the changes that we are making around terminal illness. In short, the answer to Moonie MacNeill's question is yes, but I will provide a bit more detail on that. Yes, for all the case transfer processes, we have been building a priority transfer route for those that meet the Scottish rules for terminal illness. In circumstances in which they are not already on the highest mobility and care component, we will move them across to ensure that they gain that access to the high-high award, or if they report a relevant change of circumstances, which means that they would become eligible for their or meet for the first time the Scottish rules for terminal illness, so we will transfer them across. It will be an expedited process, so it should be within four weeks. We should be able to get them from DWP systems on to ours and into payment, because we recognise the need to ensure that those things happen quickly in those circumstances. Thank you very much. I will now move to questions from Emma Roddick, who joins us in the room and then followed by Natalie Dawn, who is remote Emma. Thank you, convener. Minister, it is of course possible that, after the case transfer, people who are currently on DLA might not end up staying on ADP. Do you think that that will be an uncommon situation? When it does happen, will that data be monitored so that we can get a full picture of why and consider whether any changes to support or criteria should be made in future? In terms of movement from DLA to ADP, I will focus on that. Obviously, that is an important point of consideration for a number of reasons, both in terms of our system and the historic and recent experiences of people in the UK Government system. When it comes to those who are going from DLA to ADP, first of all, to set the context a bit. We are in the process of finalising a clear communications plan to explain to people the process. That is really important. We set out the support that will be available to help people through the transfer and review process as they move from disability allowance on to ADP payment. While Social Security Scotland cannot advise clients on their individual circumstances, we will clearly explain the differences in our wider communications between disability allowance and ADP payment and signpost people to third sector organisations for independent advice and support. We are committing £20 million to create an independent advocacy service to support them through the process. We also have our local delivery colleagues and all 32 local authorities who will be available in people's areas to provide face-to-face support for anyone who requires it at any stage of the process. That is an important context. In terms of ADP awards and will they be reviewed in the first year following case transfer? If I may just set some of this out, convener, because it is quite important detail. First of all, in terms of context, information that is published by the DWP provides information on the outcomes for people who have already transferred from DLA to PIP. Up to the end of October 2021, approximately 150,000 DLA to PIP assessments were completed by the DWP in Scotland. Of those, before reconsiderations and appeals—that is important—43 per cent resulted in an increased award, 14 per cent resulted in an unchanged award, 21 per cent resulted in a decreased award and 22 per cent resulted in a no award. That 21 per cent and 22 per cent is what Amorodax is referring to. However, the number of people who receive an ADP award that is lower than their DEA award is uncertain to answer your question. That is why we could expect the numbers of those who receive a decreased or no award to be lower when clients move from disability living allowance to adult disability payment than they would be moving from disability living allowance to adult disability payment. That is for two important reasons. One, the statistics that I have referred to with regard to the DWP do not factor in the outcomes of appeals for adult disability payment. Where 70 per cent of appeals in Great Britain have led to a decision in favour of the client, we will seek to get our decisions right first time and we are very committed to that. That has been set out in what I have set out in what I have articulated to committee with regard to ADP and what we are doing. The second reason is that our assessment processes are based on dignity, fairness and respect and we strongly believe that we will lead to fairer outcomes. For example, in preparing their forecast for adult disability payment, the Scottish Fiscal Commission has included assumptions for the outcome of award reviews as a result of changes being introduced with adult disability payment. In their August 2020 report, the Scottish Fiscal Commission stated that overall, we assume that those changes will decrease the number of people who lose their adult disability payment award. We estimate that the disallowance rate at award review will decrease from 19.5 per cent to 4.5 per cent. That is indicative of the fact that because of the changes that we are making to the experience for clients and because we are committed to our principles of dignity, fairness and respect, we obviously cannot speak to individual circumstances and cases but we anticipate that we will get our decisions right first time and that the support will follow through. I hope that I know that that was a long answer. That is great. I think that that was very helpful minister. Thank you. I will bring in Natalie Dohan to be followed by Jeremy Balfour. Thanks, convener, and good morning minister. Because people might lose out and I appreciate the assurances that the minister has given in this regard this morning, do we think that there will be a hesitancy for people to come forward and request a transfer? Will any information campaign again that has been touched on this morning take account of this? Just on top of that, does the minister believe that the more person-centred and dignified process that social security or Scotland are following in contrast to the DWP is going to be useful in encouraging people to come forward for that transfer? I think that the aspects of the question are really important but I guess I would just take this point to emphasise that nobody needs to come forward for transfer. We will get in touch with people and manage the case transfer process so to all those who are on a current department for work and pensions benefit. Social Security Scotland will be in touch and we will seamlessly transfer their case. Although we do encourage people to apply and I just emphasise that who are not in receipt of a disability payment to apply to the process. I talked about the communications recently in answer to Marodic and we spoke through that. I guess just in terms of a point of clarity and this is where Natalie Don's question is really relevant. Those who are on working-age disability living allowance are an exception to the rule in terms of case transfer and they can choose to apply. I will bring in Kate shortly to say a bit more about that. I am touching on the point with regard to support. I think that it is important to emphasise that, through the process of case transfer and a review following on from answer to Marodic, there will be short-term assistance available to individuals who, during the redetermination and appeals process, if they had their decrease or a nill award and they choose to seek a redetermination or appeal, they will get short-term assistance to avoid financial hardship. It is important to emphasise that. We are also exploring other ways of providing support to clients who may face a reduced or nill award after a review. For example, we are discussing potential support for those with an AVE vehicle who may have lost the Enhancement Ability Award after a review. That is an important point that we are continuing to consider what assistance we can provide. There are a number of aspects in our system that are going to be there to support people through any review process. Kate, if I could just bring you in with regard to the exception for working daily in terms of choosing to seek case transfer. Yes, of course. The minister has covered the majority of the points. The general rule, as the minister mentioned, is that clients will not choose to transfer. We will select them through the natural managed case transfer process. We have set out to ensure that we can do this in a way that ensures that there are no breaks in payments and we can control the volumes to make sure that those processes are safe and secure. We are able to do that because, in the first instance, the main entitlement components for the awards that are transferring from and to are the same. We can do a like transfer in most circumstances, which means that clients will not necessarily be better off if they move earlier. In the very few circumstances where that would be the case, we have included back-dating provisions to make sure that clients do not lose out by moving later. For that reason, clients will not be able to choose when they transfer. They will be selected for transfer and will inform them when that is happening. The one exception to that is for those clients who are on working-age disability living allowance. The reason that we are doing that is because the components of disability living allowance and adult disability payment are different. As we heard from the statistics that the minister read out earlier, some clients will be better off being assessed against the components for adult disability payment than they are for disability living allowance. We are going to make sure that that is provisioned to allow those clients to select to transfer. We will make sure that clear communications are planned and given out to explain the process and what it will mean for those transferring over. It will clearly set out the support that will be available to people to help them to transfer through the process. It will clearly set out what the differences are between disability living allowance and adult disability payment to help to make sure that people can make informed and supported decisions about whether they would be better off applying for ADP or waiting on DLA until they are transferred at a later date. I have already said something about that, but the question that Natalie Don raised around how will Social Security Scotland's approach to the review be different to the DWP's reassessment of clients from DLA to PIP in terms of a person-centred approach was how Natalie Don described it. I have talked about the fact that there will be our local delivery service, our independent advocacy service and support through any review or redetermination through short-term assistance. It is important to emphasise, and this is a point that we have put a lot of focus on because it is so significant. In launching adult disability payment, we have replaced the adversarial approach of the DWP through the removal of default face-to-face assessments and degrading functional examinations. We will trust people and what they tell us. We are coming to this from a position of trust, which is really important. I have talked before about the onus being on Social Security Scotland to collect information on people's behalf rather than having to get it themselves. We will only need to collect one piece of formal supporting information when making a decision, which is very different from the current process of multiple bits of formal information being required for different parts of a person's claim. The general approach and the effect that we will have on individuals through this process, and the fact that we are starting from a position of trust, is important for all of us to emphasise so that people who want to make applications feel encouraged to do so, but also to make sure that the word is getting out all across Scotland of the different approaches that we are taking. Thank you very much for that minister. As you have been talking, you have answered a number of other questions that members have had. I have been getting a flurry of information here on my phone to say that they have no further questions. That brings us to the end of this session. I would like to thank you and your officials for coming this morning and giving evidence. I will suspend briefly for a change over. Welcome back, everybody. At agenda item number five, we will consider kinship care. This morning, we are taking evidence from the Minister for Children and Young People to discuss issues arising from our recent evidence sessions on kinship care. The committee heard evidence from stakeholder organisations on 24 February and had an informal session with kinship cares on 21 March. I welcome to the meeting Clare Haughey, Minister for Children and Young People. The minister is joined by Scottish Government officials who are in the room with us. We have Gwen Davidson, the unit head improving lives of people with care experience, and Louisa Brown, a family care team improving lives for people with care experience at the Scottish Government. Welcome to everybody this morning. I invite the minister to make an opening statement. Good morning. I am grateful to the committee for inviting me to give evidence today. I welcome the opportunity to discuss some of the issues that were raised by kinship carers and stakeholders at your session on 24 February. Kinship care has evolved over many decades. What started as very informal and ambiguous care for children has progressed to something more structured, resulting in recognition in statute. I know that it can be complex not only for kinship families but also for those who support them. We recognise and value the role that kinship carers play in providing secure, stable and nurturing homes for children and young people when they are no longer able to live with their birth parents. We recently had kinship care week, which was an opportunity for us to celebrate the difference that kinship care is making to the lives of our children and young people. During kinship care week, I had the opportunity to meet kinship carers and families to hear about their experiences and the challenges that they face. I know that you have heard from kinship carers directly, as well as the organisations that work with them, that there is still more to be done in terms of help and financial assistance. That is why the Scottish Government is fully committed to providing additional investment and support. The promise implementation plan published yesterday sets out the actions that we will take to keep the promise by 2030. In the plan, we reaffirm our intention to introduce the Scottish recommended allowance for kinship and foster carers to stop the postcode lottery and ensure that there is consistency across all 32 local authorities. We have resumed our discussions with COSLA following the pandemic, and I hope to be in a position to see more soon about the funding for the allowance and when it will be available. As part of our ambition to keep the promise and upscale family support services, we will have the whole family wellbeing fund totaling £500 million to give families across Scotland access to the help that they need at the right time. £50 million from the fund will be available in 2022-23. We also published our second tackling child poverty delivery plan, best start brighter futures, on 24 March, which set out the transformational action that we will take with partners to tackle child poverty. In 2022-23, that work will be supported by investment of almost £113 million on top of funding that is already allocated to on-going programmes. Funding is only one part, although an important part, of how we plan to improve support for kinship carers. We established the kinship care collaborative along with partners in 2020 to deliver improvements in the support for kinship carers, children and professionals working with kinship families across Scotland. The priorities set by the collaborative include reviewing the current kinship legislation and guidance, which was an area of focus for your round-table discussion, identifying resources and gaps across the piece and improving consistency of provision across Scotland. Despite a slow start due to the pandemic, the work of the collaborative now continues to gather momentum and I look forward to receiving a full range of recommendations from the collaborative in due course. I welcome the committee's interest in kinship care and for the opportunity that you have given me to answer your questions. Thank you very much minister. We will now move on to questions from members. We have some themes this morning. The first theme is about kinship care and reform of children's care services, and I am going to bring in my colleague Emma Roddicken first to be followed by Jeremy Balfour. Thank you convener and good morning minister. Something that came through very strongly in the evidence session last week from kinship carers was their wish to have a more consistent approach to how it is defined. Some had one child in one category and one child in another, and they told us that they wanted one clear definition that children in their care were looked after and could then receive the same support that other care experienced children do. Will the Scottish Government consider a clearer, more consistent approach to defining those in kinship care perhaps through legislation or otherwise? As I said in my opening statement, Ms Roddick, we accept that it is a very complex landscape, and no kinship care arrangement is the same as another. Some of those can be for very short periods of time. For example, a grandparent looks after a child because their mother or father is in hospital for a short period of time, others are for much longer. The terms of informal kinship care refer to the legal status of a child, a young person living with their relatives or friends. It is an area that the kinship care collaborative is focusing on as part of the work. A change in legislation or introduction of legislation will not necessarily equate to good practice, and there must be consistency in the interpretation of the guidance and of the legislation. We are working hard to ensure that there is good practice and that it is aligned with national guidelines and that there is emotional support for those carers, regardless of where they stay. As I said, individual families have different requirements. In fact, children can go in and out of kinship care. As we outlined yesterday in launching the keeping the promise document, we need to be providing support and services that are very person-centred and that fit around that individual and that family. That is what the Scottish Government is doing. We are working very closely on funding KCAS, which I believe made a submission to the committee about their work. As part of their work, they have developed support for social work services right across the country in terms of developing professional support, expanding good practice and learning right across the country. Good morning, minister. Good morning to your team. I put on record my thanks to those who came and gave evidence to us who were kinship carers. I think that all of us who were there were deeply moved by what we heard and so I just want to thank them. Two questions really just fallen up from what Emma just asked you, minister. I appreciate it about good practice and about how it works on the ground, but there seems to be a lot of confusion around the definition of kinship carers. If you are defining a certain way, you get certain benefits and certain help. If you are defining a different way, you get other benefits or you have other issues that you have to face. That does seem to be very confusing for those on the ground. I am just wondering without even legislation, can there be further guidance given in regard to what we understand by that? Secondly, what struck me particularly in our session last week was one individual came along and I was told that they had two of their children, two of their grandchildren, who were given to them because their son or daughter couldn't look after them. They had no follow-up from social work for months, literally months, when they did work to the house to adapt it to allow these children to stay, there was no financial support given to them. That didn't seem to be exceptional, it seemed to be maybe not normative but happened a lot of the time. Again, part of that is down to definitions, so I appreciate how it works in practice, but definitions do matter. I wonder whether, even if there could be further work done on what support is required, it seems to me that it is inappropriate to leave a grandparent for children for several months without any follow-up at all. I echo your sentiments at the start of that thanking the kinship carers who came to the committee and gave such valuable evidence, obviously, for the committee, but it is really important that, as Minister for Responsibility, I hear that too and I engage regularly with stakeholders to ensure that there is that flow of information and to hear their concerns, which is vitally important. That helps us to drive forward policy practice and legislation. I mentioned earlier the kinship care collaborative and the work that they were doing, and part of the work that they are doing in priority group 1 is about establishing clear and universal understanding for definitions within the legislation, because it is recognised that much is easy to define what it says in the legislation and what people need to have an understanding of that. I think that that is really important as part of the work that they are doing, and they are also reviewing the kinship care legislation and guidance. It is absolutely key work that they are doing, and they will provide recommendations to the Scottish Government about a way forward. Do we have a timescale for that? That work is going on at pace. I cannot give you a timescale for when that piece of work will be completed, but what I can do, Mr Balfour, if it is helpful to the committee, is to update the committee on the work that the kinship collaborative is doing. I think that that would be very helpful minister going forward. I will now bring in my colleague Faisal Toudry with a question. Thank you, convener. Good morning, minister. My question is more or less the same as what my colleagues Jeremy and Emma have asked. Obviously, what can the Scottish Government do to give clarity to the definition of kinship care and what my colleague Emma has asked as well? Will legislative change be considered by the Scottish Government? As you recognise, Mr Toudry answered some of that in previous questions. I absolutely agree with you that clarity is one of the issues that is raised with me. When I meet with kinship carers, it is about clarity. It is about information, it is about better communication from the professionals involved with their family, from the support services that they have round about. So, yes, clarity and communication are absolutely key. As I said in a previous answer, the kinship care collaborative is looking at that. It has been identified that that is an area that needs work. I will now move on to our next theme, which is round about financial support. I will move first to a question from my colleague Natalie Dawn, who joins us remotely, to be followed by Jeremy. Thank you, convener, and good morning, minister. Apologies. I missed the first question, so if that has been touched on again, I apologise. We heard evidence that there are major differences between the support between different local authorities for kinship. I have also had issues with constituents with the transfer of cases between different local authorities. How can the Scottish Government aid that? What difficulties have the Government faced with the implementation of a national rate of allowance for kinship carers? Thank you to Natalie Dawn for her question. I did touch on some of that earlier on. I am happy to reiterate that, convener, about the work that the kinship care collaborative is doing, which is looking at three priority work streams, one of which is looking at the review of kinship care legislation and guidance, establishing clear and universal understanding for definitions within legislation. The priority group 2 is looking at identification of resources and gaps with a view to eliminating those gaps and identifying good practice across the country. The priority group 3 is looking at improving consistency of service support across Scotland and ensuring that kinship care is visible within our communities. I hope that that supplements some of the answers that I had given earlier. I also think that KCAS, the kinship care alliance across Scotland, plays an absolutely vital role in providing support for kinship carers not only in emotional support and peer support, but in helping them to access financial and benefits support, which is key in ensuring that they are aware of the rights that they have as kinship carers. You touched on the national rate of allowance for kinship carers yesterday, as we published the keeping the promise implementation plan, we announced that we will set recommended national allowance for foster and kinship allowances, and hopefully that will reassure some of the kinship carers who have been making representation to the Scottish Government and to the committee that this is something that they wanted. Words matter, and I suppose definitions matter, and I was interested again, you said, you would recommend a level of payment that local authorities should pay. Is it recommended you have to do it, or here is a suggestion? I wonder how far did that word recommend go? We will set a recommended national allowance. You have to pay that. If I am a local authority across Scotland, I will not have a choice on that. We certainly would not prevent local authorities from paying more than they recommended. The other issue is, and that may be cut up in the view, there have been issues not only around kinship but fostering it as well, that the local authority where the child comes from is responsible for that payment, but the grandparents might live in a different local authority. Is that going to be looked at and reviewed? Is that a satisfactory way of working, or would it be better that the local authority where the kinship carer is would pick up the cost because they understand we need better? I wonder if that has been looked at in my view as well. I am going to ask my official Louisa to answer some of that, because the complexities of the legality of where that child is looked after probably comes into play here. That is set out in the guidance, but it is another area that has been open to interpretation. There has been some work done on that already through the collaborative, and there is a document that is ready to be issued just now that has been worked on with Social Work Scotland and others, and that should help with the explanation of the payments across local authorities. We can share that very soon with the committee as well. I recognise, Mr Balford, that there has been concerns raised about differing rates. I am sure that that is an issue that has been raised with the committee, where some kinship carers felt that the rate that they were getting was not the same as someone in another part of the country. As I mentioned earlier, no longer having a postcode lottery is really important. I think that we did hear quite a lot about that, because there was quite a big variation in the payments across the country. Indeed, as my colleague Jeremy Balford has alluded to, even some of the top-up things and the things that happened because that local authority chose to do it or were subject to the interpretation of the guidance, the work that the collaborative is going to do in helping to shape how that guidance can be changed and updated is going to be invaluable. I think that you really hit the nail on the head, convener, if I may. Transparency is also absolutely key. Some local authorities have a set rate and additional rates for specific reasons, others do not. Being able to have transparency in all those rates would offer a degree of reassurance to kinship carers and kinship families. That is certainly what I have heard when I have had conversations with them. I move to a question from Pam Duncan-Glancy, who joins us remotely. Thank you, convener, for outlining the position of the minister and also for the questions that you have answered so far. Does the minister intend that the national allowance would be updated in line with the cost of living and inflation in the same way that benefits were this morning? At the moment, we are still in negotiation with COSLA, and there will be further announcements about the allowance in due course. Thank you for that. Can the minister also set out what support would be in place for kinship carers and children in kinship care ahead of the roll-out of the £25 child payment in December, and in particular, what can the minister say about having 50,000 children on bridging payments that will not get the increase to mind? In terms of the support that the Scottish Government gives to kinship carers, that is quite wide and varying. We use all our powers available to support households, the extra support for cost of living pressures, targets that are in need, not only those who are in the benefit system, so that we help those who are struggling or just coping. We firmly believe that kinship carers of non-looked-after children should be supported, as any parent would through the welfare system, that they should be able to acclaim benefits, such as child benefit and the child element of universal credit. Recognising them as a family unit in recognition of the rising costs of living pressures, we have now decided to further increase the Scottish benefits by 6 per cent from the previous plan of operating by most by about 3.1 per cent. I believe that the committee had a session previously with the minister in charge of social security, and I am sure that he gave much more detailed information about that. We absolutely recognise that there are cost of living pressures right across the country. We have to acknowledge the impact that devolved reserve benefits have on our families, the impact of universal credit and the £20 cut, the impact on other reserve benefits, such as pensions. A lot of our kinship carers are on pensions. It is also noteworthy that the benefit cap exemption does not apply to all kinship carers. That is something that we wish to be changed. As you mentioned, we doubled the Scottish child payment to £20 from April. That is 100 per cent increase. We are also increasing the child winter heating assistance by 6 per cent, and that is above the original plan rate of 5 per cent. That will support 19,000 families of severely disabled children with heating costs. The Scottish Government is, as I say, using all the powers that we have to support households. Thank you for outlining the measures that the Government is currently taking, but I specifically ask what you would do with measures that you are not taking around the £150,000 children who are getting bridging payments. They will not get the £20,000, so they will not get the doubling of the Scottish child payment in April. They will not get any increase until December this year, and there are 177,000 children in Scotland either because of the climate uptake. What can you do specifically for those children? On the specifics of that, I am happy to write to the committee or Ms Duncan-Glancy to outline what specifics are being done to support those children. If the minister is unable to give anything else further at this time, I will be happy to hear your name. Before I move on to the next set of questions, I have one from myself. It was brought up to us in that informal session that we had with Kinship Cares that there are those that are on an informal basis, and they are deemed ineligible for any support. A national rate is not going to help them at the moment, and that is something that they have looked to us to look into. Is there any way that that is going to change at all? Currently, the Scottish rate that we discussed earlier is for those who are currently in receipt of kinship and fostering caring allowances. It is an area that the Kinship Cares collaborative will look at, and I have no doubt that it will come back to us with recommendations that we will look at. That is very helpful, thank you very much. The last theme that we have this morning is roundabout other and further supports for Kinship families. I have my first question. It is going to come from Jeremy Balf. I am getting a note that his questions have been answered. It is going to be back to Pam Duncan-Glancy, to ask her questions on that, followed by Marie McNair. Thank you, convener. I have no further questions. Everybody's questions have already been answered. Marie McNair, please, we'll have your question. Thanks, convener, and good morning, minister, hopefully. It's not been covered. As you know, there are 32 councils in Scotland that are all providing support to kinship carers, and because of the different approaches, there is a variation in the support given, and this is not just financial. Are you clear about what the core elements of that support should be and how are the Scottish Government engaging with councils to promote those elements? Thank you to Ms McNair for that question. She raises an important issue there, which is consistently raised with the Scottish Government. When I meet kinship carers, I know that there are varying levels of support, and there are different types of support across the country for kinship carers. Some might feel that they are not getting the support that they might do if they lived in another local authority area. The national funding of the kinship carer advice Scotland, KCAS, is absolutely important here, in that it gives a national consistency of support, helpline, assistance with peer support, access to legal advice and to benefits advice. That is really important that there is that consistency across the country. It is important to recognise that in local authorities, although there are varying levels and degrees of support. Some provide very good levels and degrees of support. The committee spoke with the Perthyn Kinross Council as part of your inquiry, and it detailed the support that they offer to their kinship carers and families in their local area. It is really important that the professional groups that KCAS helps to convene and the training helps to support local authorities and social workers on the ground across Scotland to develop best practice, to learn from best practice so that we can disseminate that across Scotland. I do not know if there is anything additional that I have missed from that, Louisa or Gwen? The kinship advice service is the main national support that is available, but yes, the professional advisers group of KCAS are looking at sharing of best practice and training and things like that. It is also under consideration by the collaborative and what more we can do to expand the guidance to local authorities to help with that practice across the country. It is another one that is under consideration. Thanks for that response. It was clear to us in taking evidence that there was a great deal of informal support to each other from kinship carers. What is the Scottish Government doing to support kinship carers and gay network together? I think that my experience of talking to kinship carers absolutely echoes what Mary McNair says there in terms of the power of peer support and the absolute value of that. It is important to note that most local authorities are involved with kinship carers support groups. Some of the success of peer support groups in urban areas is down to the absolutely hard work and devotion of carers taking responsibility to facilitate those groups. In some areas, geography in the past has often precluded group visibility, transport issues, etc., and difficulties in ensuring confidentiality in small communities. There has certainly been an issue that has been raised with me, but more recently, as we have moved to an online and more virtual world, I have been told of many of those groups springing up across the country and being very valued during lockdown as they help people to attend those peer support groups that they might not have been able to do. We have also seen in terms of social media a range of closed Facebook groups in which peer support is able to be accessed. Often that access and that help there is provided 24-7. I have one final question for you, minister. One of the things that we heard in that informal session with kinship carers was that there is no provision for family leave available for those that find themselves in that situation. Sometimes, overnight, they find themselves in their whole world as they are turned upside down. It very much depends on goodwill of employers. We heard some good examples of where that worked well and we heard other examples of where there was no provision given. Is there anything that the Scottish Government can do to help with that, to move that forward for those who find themselves in that situation? As I am sure the committee is aware, policy on statutory leave, like parental leave, remains a reserved issue. However, I am happy to commit to writing to my counterpart, Westminster, to raise that issue and to ask them to explore that further. We all have an obligation to raise general awareness of kinship carers and to the pressures that they face in their families at times and the responsibilities that they have and to ensure that employers are aware of that. I think that that is one of the key messages from kinship care week, as well as supporting and celebrating kinship families and providing the recognition that they absolutely deserve is today's public awareness, so that people understand what kinship care is. We do not have any further questions for you this morning, but we look forward to hearing the updates going forward from the work of the collaborative that is on-going and how the guidance can be shaped to try to get that passported learning across all 32 local authorities with best practice, but the setting of that level of where we need to see that allowance. Thank you very much for coming along this morning. That concludes the formal public part of the committee's meeting this morning. The Parliament is in recess next week, and therefore our next committee meeting will be on Thursday 21 April. I invite members who are joining us remotely to leave the meeting and join us on Teams. Thank you very much, everybody.