 Oh, I did a little stalking on Pippin last night. And although I've known him for a few years from WordCamp, he's a pretty humble guy and keeps kind of on the down low. He's a legend right in our own backyard almost now. He's moved all the way out to Hutchison. He owns and founded Sandhill Development. So how many people have used a Pippin's plug-in of some type? He's got a bunch of them out there. Easy digital downloads, affiliate WP, restrict content pro, sugar event calendars, Selberg, Pippin's plug-ins, and over 50 more free ones on the WordPress repository. His first plug-in was font uploader. What year was that? 2010. That's what I thought. I saw an interview with Syed about that. So without further ado, and he's going to clue us in on how hard it is to run and scale a business, I think, today, Pippin Williamson. Good morning. Welcome to work in Kin City. As Jim said, my name is Pippin Williamson. This morning, I want to talk to you about the ever-changing roles of founders, CEOs, and owners of bootstrapped businesses. This is something that's pretty personal to me, being the founder of a small bootstrapped business. And coming from the, 89 years ago, when I started building a company, I had no plans to build a company. I had no plans to hire a bunch of people. I had no plans to build products. I had no plans to do any of that. Yet today, I am now the CEO of Sandhills Development, which is a 20-person company that is distributed across four countries and a bunch of states in the US. And we primarily build e-commerce affiliate marketing and membership plug-ins for WordPress. This all kind of started back in my college dorm room as a hobby. I was building websites for clients, just anybody that would hire me. And I was at the university studying linguistics. I thought I wanted to go down into Central and South America to do language restoration for Indigenous languages, which today, frankly, I think is a whole lot more interesting than what I do day-to-day. But this is where I ended up. So I was doing freelance development on the side, just to make a little bit of extra to pay my rent. And I also worked as a stagehand at a theater, making $7.45 an hour. And today, it's a pretty different world. I have gone through the process of building products, hiring people, firing people, growing a team, figuring out what in the world I want to do, going from a developer to a marketer, to a designer, to an accountant, to a business owner, to considering selling my business, to starting another business, to every single role you can imagine within a company I've held. And the reason I've held that is because we run a bootstrapped company. And when you start something by yourself, it's you and yourself. Or as I'll say it, it's me, myself, and I. So regardless of the job that has to be done, guess who gets to do it? This guy. Or you, or whoever it is that's starting a business. You do everything. You take care of every single role. So for me, starting out, it was a hobby. I built some plugins for fun. I built some websites for fun. And occasionally, somebody would pay me a little bit of money to build a website. And that accidentally turned into a 20-person company that, well, looks very different than what it started with. So I want to share with you how roles kind of change for founders, CEOs, and business owners. I don't know how many of you here are one of those, or is aspiring, or thinks they might be, or is just interested in it. But I do hope that it's valuable to you. And to tell you about how the roles change, I mostly want to share some of my own personal experiences. Tell you a little bit of story of how the company came to be, what we do, and some of the things that have happened along the way, including some really big mistakes that I made. OK, let's look at where it started. I, in 2010, 2009, somewhere in that range, I was at the University of Kansas. I was studying linguistics. And I was building websites for people that would hire me on the side. It was my side gig. I would do it in the evenings, the weekends, et cetera. Over time, I just kept building more. And then that eventually led into me building a couple of WordPress plugins. I was pretty, I was building everything on top of WordPress already. And I was really enjoying it. And I started to learn some PHP development. And I was really interested at the time of becoming a PHP developer. That was kind of the identity that I had picked for myself once I decided that linguistics was not for me anymore. So I wanted to become a PHP developer. I was very lucky that my roommate at the time happened to be a really great PHP developer. His name was John Kerry. And he was very proud of the fact that he owned JohnCarrie.net during the political campaign of John Kerry. But anyway, I digress. I was very fortunate that he was my roommate because he taught me a lot about PHP and how to build stuff. So under his guidance, I started building a few plugins for WordPress. And I put them up, I put them up for sale on a marketplace called Codecanyon, expecting them to go nowhere. I didn't have, I had zero expectations. I didn't think they would do anything. Miraculously, somebody bought it the same day that I put it up. And that completely blew my mind. And so I took myself across campus and bought a latte that I couldn't afford because I was living on 7.45 an hour and broke college student. So I continued to build plugins. I built a few more just for fun. I was just having a great time at it. I was learning a lot about PHP and just kind of jumping in and becoming a developer. And I was living in a house at the time that had a lot of synergy. We had myself, my brother, a good friend and my roommate who we were all really interested in building things, just all sorts of different things. And so I just kept building, having fun, tinkering. And I launched a few more plugins and then I launched some more and I launched some more. And then kind of by accident, I realized all of a sudden, whoa, I have a business. This is kind of strange, how did this happen? But I realized that all of a sudden I had, I was making enough through plugin sales that all of a sudden I could actually support myself on it. And that was totally unexpected and not planned. It surprised me. But at the time I was getting ready to, I was engaged to my now wife and I decided to take a gamble. And I said, okay, I have just graduated college. My part-time student job that paid me 7.75 an hour is no longer an option because I'm not a student anymore. And I have to figure out something else to do. So I was pretty familiar with construction and plumbing and things like that. So I decided that my backup plan would be to go into the trades. But I was gonna take a gamble and over the summer I would see if I could manage to pay rent. And if I could pay rent, doing just this a little bit of freelance development and building plugins and selling plugins, that's what I would do. And it worked amazingly. And so for the next year or two, I kept doing that. During this process, I discovered that I was pretty good at it. Not, it surprised me, but it grew enough that a few things happened. First of all, I outgrew myself. I suddenly couldn't do everything. It took about six months, no, about a year before all of a sudden there was too much for me to do by myself. Now, keep in mind that I'm very much a do-it-myself kind of person. This is, I think sometimes it's pretty indicative of people that start businesses, especially people that start businesses by accident. If my plumbing breaks at my house, I fix it. If my windows break, I fix them. If my car breaks, I fix it. And that's just the way that I've always been. That's the way that I grew up. And that meant that when building a business, even though I wasn't intentionally building a business at the time, if I need somebody to handle customer support, I do it. If I need somebody to figure out the taxes for the company, I do it. If I need to figure out how to build a new product or how to fix this problem or how to restore a server after it crashed, I do it. And that's just the way that I was. And the good side of that means that I got a lot done. The bad side of that is there's a lot of things that I did that I should never have done because I'm just really terrible at it, frankly. So the first time that I learned that, there's a couple of them. The first one was when I realized that I had burnt myself out on customer support because I got to a point where I had enough customers that I was working 18 hours a day just to keep them all happy. And I refused. I didn't like the idea of hiring somebody because that meant that I was losing my control. I was losing the control of the experience. I was losing the ability to help the customers in the way that I wanted to. And so eventually I realized that I had to get over that. And so you have to hire somebody, you have to bring somebody else on. But before we go into that, I wanna tell you about one of the bigger screw ups that I made. And that is because I'm a do-it-myselfer, I decided to always file my own taxes. Taxes are hard. Let's be honest, unless you're a CPA or somebody that, well, in my mind as a masochist, taxes are hard. Well, when you make 7.75 or 7.45 at a part-time college job and they hand you a W-2 or a 10.99, that's it. Taxes are pretty easy. I mean, you go to TurboTax, you put in your one or two forms and you maybe pay 50 bucks and you're done. Or you go to H&R Block or whoever you wanna do it, you hand it over and you're done. Well, so that was my experience with taxes. And then I went, in the course of a year, to all of a sudden having a six-figure income business that I had no experience with. And I didn't know what I was doing. I had built products unexpectedly that started to do really well. And so I decided I'm still going to file my own taxes, I'm gonna take care of that myself. And it ended up being a mistake that just cost about $20,000 because I did it wrong. I didn't know that I did it wrong, but I did it wrong. So one of the first things that, one of the earlier things that I've learned is that we have to be willing, if we are a business owner, to let somebody else do it. We have to recognize when we are not the best person for this job. And taxes is one of those places where I'm definitely not the best person for the job. I actually like to joke with the team, or maybe my team now jokes with me. Sometimes in a good natured manner, sometimes in a very serious manner, I'm terrible at math, and I built an e-commerce plugin, which is an interesting combination. So when we run numbers for the team, they always verify my numbers because they end up inevitably being wrong, which is the same reason why I ended up with a $20,000 tax mistake. And then the next year ended up with a bigger mistake. Okay, so let's talk about hiring for a moment. When you do everything yourself, you tend to be opposed to hiring, not because you believe other people do a poor job, not because you don't want to hire somebody, not because you don't have the resources, but because you're just naturally built to do things yourself. Instead of, your first instinct is to just, well, okay, we have a problem. Let's jump in and we'll fix the problem. We have something that's done, we'll jump in and we'll do the job. That's pretty easy. It's just natural for us. Well, I had burnt myself out because I was working 18-hour days and I was done. It was putting a strain on me, putting a strain on my marriage and it needed to change. So I got over myself and I started looking for help. I started looking at how to hire people and I hired a couple of part-time people to help with customer support. What I didn't know at the time is that I had no idea how to hire anybody and I had no idea how to delegate. I had no idea how to manage. I had no idea how to talk to somebody about this new job that I was paying them to do. The process, and now this is actually still not too different from today, but the process then for me hiring somebody was literally a tweet that, hey, you want to do support for me? I'll pay you this in an hour. See you tomorrow. That was it. Pretty informal and we're still pretty informal, but that also meant that when they came to work that next day when I found a couple of people to accept a part-time job from me is I basically said, here's the support system. Here's your login. Yeah, good luck. There's no management, there's no direction, there's no guidance. I didn't know how to hire somebody. I didn't know how people worked for me because I had done every role myself, always. The role that I had never done, however, was learning how to hire somebody. So those first people that we hired didn't work out. And they honestly didn't work out because of me because my own failing and my lack of understanding of how to actually bring somebody on and help them do the job that I paid them to do. I knew how to give them access to a system and I knew how to pay them and that was about it. So those first ones really didn't work out. We kind of muscled our way through. And now, if we fast-forward to about 2013, I am still a solo freelancer. I have hired a couple people part-time, they have not worked out, and I'm solo again. I'm solo again with a line of products making about $350,000 a year and having no freaking clue what to do because number one, I can't manage it. It's too big for me. So I started to get paranoid. I started to think, hmm, what if I get sued? This is a problem. I build an e-commerce plug-in, a membership plug-in and a few other things that have a lot to do with people's businesses. And if I screw up, somebody out there is gonna sue me. So I started to get paranoid. So I decide, okay, well, here's a role that I should jump into, legal expert, obviously. So I'm gonna figure out how to not get sued. I am not a legal person. This is not my forte at all. But I decide that after a little bit of Google research, I find that one of the ways to help protect you from getting sued is you form an LLC. I didn't know what that meant at the time. I had no idea. But I knew that supposedly, forming an LLC was an insulation against, is protecting myself. It's basically like, hey, here's a business and here's me, sue the business for everything the business has, but don't touch me. It's basically, that was my understanding of an LLC. Whether that's accurate or not, doesn't really matter. At the point, at the time, that's all I knew. I also knew how to Google. And so like any self-respecting developer at the time, I do five minutes of Google research and find a company that can form an LLC for me. And sure enough, 20 minutes later, I own Pippin's Pages LLC. I have no idea what that means. But that's what I did. Three or four days later, this fancy booklet shows up in the mail. It's leather-bound, it's shiny, it's got gold lettering on it, and it says Pippin's Pages LLC. I'm like, this is awesome. I am official, like I own a business now. I don't know what this means. What are minutes? What's a shareholder median? Like, I don't know, this is weird to me. That was something that I started to learn over time just by doing, by building a company out of a hobby, without any anticipation of building a company. In 2013, when I formed the company, I still had no intention of it being a company. I had no intention of hiring people still or like a dedicated company, having a team, having payroll, having insurance, having benefits, unemployment tax, withholding tax. What is all of this? What is workers comp? Come on, we sit in our bedrooms on our laptops. Like, why do I need workers comp? Well, welcome to the nature of building a real business. So I formed an LLC and I had no idea what to do with it, but I had one. And I decided that shortly after that, it was time to actually hire a real person and to hire a real employee. So I reached out to a few people that had been helping out in my support forums, just kind of volunteering. And again, it was pretty informal. Hey, Sean, you're gonna come work for me full time. Like, just do what you're doing now. Work for me full time. And amazingly, he accepted and became my first full-time employee. Thank, and I'm thrilled to say that he's still here today. But I have to remember that I didn't know how to pay him. I didn't know how to do payroll. I didn't know how to do anything. Basically, I said, hey, Sean, take this amount of money per year and come work for me. And I'm gonna figure out how to do all of the other things, like to make sure you actually get paid. I'll figure it out afterwards. And that's just kind of what you do. You jump into that role. You jump into things as they happen. You fix problem as they happen. And that's what founders and CEOs and owners do. So from mid-2013 to today, we grew in three months to three people. Then to five people. Then to eight people. Then to 10, 15, 16. And today, we are 16 full-time employees with about four contractors that work with us. It's still a very small company, as companies go. But it's also wildly different than what it started as. It is, I never thought that I would spend my day figuring out unemployment taxes. But that's the thing that happens. So during that process, there's a lot of things that I've learned and I would like to share a few of them with you. So first of all, is that we have to be willing to do anything and do any job within the company. So I think there's four main things that I want to share with you. Number one, and to me, these are four ways that we can help ensure that owners, founders, CEOs, or anybody that is aspiring, or anybody that is just interested, or anybody maybe that has a friend or a family member they would like to help out. I think there's four things that we have to do. So number one, is we have to be willing to do any job within the company. Doesn't matter what it is. Most bootstrapped businesses start with their founders doing everything. So I told you that I was the developer. I was the marketer. I was the support person. I was the designer. I was the accountant. I was every single role within the company and it changed all the time because as things happen, as we built a product, launch the product. Somebody bought the product. That person comes in and asks a question. I had no intention of people actually buying this product, but guess what? If you put something up for sale and somebody buys it and they ask a question, you kind of have to answer them. And oops, well, so that grows. And then you become HR. You become the hiring person. You become the firing person. You become the manager. You become a boss. You then figure out whether or not that's going to work for you and then you figure out how to replace you with somebody else because you don't want to be a manager or because you're terrible at it. You jump through all of these roles. So a founder or a CEO or a business owner or boss or whatever title you want to give them has to be willing to do any job within the company. It doesn't matter what it is. It doesn't matter how glamorous or not glamorous it is. Unfortunately, I think a lot of businesses, a lot of CEOs, if you will, have this idea of I sit upon my throne and I watch my minions work. Fun. No, that's ridiculous. We start with building and doing everything. And so that means we have to be willing to do everything. Number one, because typically the people that start a company have to know how or the knowledge or the experience to do every job within the company. And when they can't do it, such as me doing taxes, we know how to find somebody that can, whether that's hiring the right CPA or going through the process of hiring the wrong CPA that then costs you 100 grand and then figure out how to replace that CPA with somebody that actually knows what they're doing. Or so we either know how to do every job or we know how to find the person to do every job. But what if you get into a situation where all of a sudden this role that you filled with somebody, maybe they leave unexpectedly, either because they choose to move on, they have an accident, they are unable to work, or whoever knows what. You have to be able to fill that role. And sometimes that means you literally walking in and filling that role with your own shoes. Sometimes it means figuring out how to get that role filled. So we have to be willing to do every single job in the company, even if it's the role of janitor. Because sometimes when you're like me and you spill beer all over the floor, you still got to be the janitor. Number two is number three. And number two. Number two is that we have to be willing to recognize when we are not the best person for a role, when somebody else can do it better than us. I am not a marketer at all. But starting out, I did all the marketing because it was me, myself, and I. There is no marketing unless I do it. So that's what happens. You take on every single role. But you have to be willing to recognize when somebody else is better than you, or when you're just not qualified for it. And just because somebody else is better than you, that's not an insult against you. It's a compliment to them. And it's honestly more costly for you to do a job poorly than to pay someone well to do the job really well. So we have to be willing to recognize that. And we have to pay attention to it. Pay attention when a developer that I've hired is suddenly 10 times the developer that I am. Or when my marketing skills are far surpassed by somebody else. Or when mine is more beneficial than them, take care of it. Number three is we have to be willing to adapt to changes because our roles constantly change. Our roles change because our roles within the company change. And sometimes the people that work with change, hopefully slowly, but sometimes quickly, depending on whether you're growing or changing facts, if you have a high-term overall or a low-term overall, we have to be willing to adapt to changes in people. And changes in jobs and changes in roles. I started this being a PHP developer, just having a lot of fun in my college dorm room. And today I write very little code because that's just the way the company has changed. And we have to be willing to adapt to that change as it happens. Our roles will change every single day, every single week. And if you don't adapt to them, you might find yourself in a position you don't want to be in. I actually had an interesting experience last year because I had started to recognize the second point that I told you about recognize when someone else is able to do a job better than you. So I had started hiring really, really good people. And I had been building this team of people that had really excellent skills. And I realized at one point that I had hired myself out of a job. I had replaced every single role that I held within the company. Developer, support, marketing, design, administration, finances, I had replaced myself out of every single role. And that was awesome. Honestly, that is one of the greatest things that I've ever succeeded in. And it destroyed my motivation. I literally felt like I walked into a brick wall because suddenly I wasn't needed. I didn't need to be there. We tend to as founders and CEOs and owners, we kind of operate on this by need basis. Oh, that thing needs to get done? Okay, I'll fix it, no problem. There's a hole that needs patched? No problem, I will patch it. We have to hire somebody? No problem, we'll take care of it. We have to take care of this other problem or that problem or this task or that task. It doesn't matter. We operate on needs. I need to do this or this needs to be done and I will do it. I am really good at doing things that need to be done even if I don't like them. At the moment that I am not needed, I don't know what to do with myself anymore. And that was really strange. I did not expect that to happen and it completely surprised me. But that's a change. That's a change that we have to be willing to adapt to. We have to recognize it and we have to move past it and we have to figure out how to address it. Number three. I told you number three, I think. So number three is, oh, number three is we have to be willing, number four, sorry, is we need to be willing to address needs. What is a good founder? What is a good CEO? What is a good owner really good at doing? It's addressing needs. It's taking care of the things that need to be done. I found that all of a sudden when I wasn't able to address needs that I had problems. I didn't know what to do anymore because I didn't have needs to address. But the entire role that we play is addressing needs. Early on, it's knowing what to build or figuring out something to build and then it's addressing the needs of your customers because they have a problem, they have a support ticket that they need help with. They're experiencing a bug or a pain point or a lack of something and they need that fixed. And then it becomes your own needs of, okay, now you have to figure out how to turn this thing that is consuming 18 hours your life into a profitable business so that you can survive, so you can pay your bills. And then it becomes you have a need of maintaining that and sustaining it. And then you have a need of all of a sudden there's so much work to do that you can't do it yourself and so you need to hire people. You need people. Well, guess what? What you have when you have people. Now they have needs and all of a sudden your job changes from addressing the needs, bringing them on to address your needs and now you get to address their needs. And so you kind of flip flop. And that's not a bad thing. It's a great thing. But that's the role. So we address needs. We address, sometimes your teammates need resources. Sometimes they need more help. Sometimes they need feedback. Sometimes they just need a friend. Sometimes they need a raise. Sometimes they need a day off. Whatever it is, your entire job as a founder or a CEO or a business owner is to address needs. And if you want to be a good one, that's the entire purpose of your role and you get really good at addressing needs because it doesn't really matter what the role is. Even if it's the role of janitor, it's still a job that needs done. And so you get to take care of it and you address those needs and you'll be okay. I think that's probably the most important thing that I've learned as my roles have changed from being a developer to being a CEO. Today I don't get to play in the code all day. Like maybe sometimes I would like. I don't just build new products for fun. Sometimes I still do. But mostly I address needs. And actually I think that's a really, really great thing because that means I can solve real problems every day. How much time do we have? We have about 20 minutes. 20 minutes max if we stay on schedule. 10 or 15, I would like to answer questions. We, I'm pretty much an open book. You can ask me anything you want and I will probably give you an answer. Might not be a good answer, but I would do the best that I can. And I will also be around all day if you want to ask any questions later on. If you're shy or you think of something later, come find me. I'll probably post up out there. I see a question right here. What do you got? Yeah, what if you're a little reluctant about hiring like an insurer? Well, so it depends. Partners exist in a number of ways. So early on you can bring on partners because you don't have the resources to pay them. It's a pretty common way of kind of saying, I want you to help me and I can't pay you, but if we succeed in building this thing, then you'll get paid basically. I think that that can work really well, but it can also be very dangerous. Hiring the wrong person can also be dangerous, but you need to be careful with partners because let's just say that you have a 50-50 partnership with someone and you decide a year later that you don't like them or they don't like you, you have to somehow figure out how to address that. It's not necessarily always going to happen, but it is a real concern. And so you should be careful with who you decide to partner up with and don't do it just on a whim. For sure. Who's next? How do you learn that there are certain things you do? You learned that there were certain things that you weren't the best equipped to do, but I'm curious about your evolution of something you were doing to fund, to actually making lots of money at it, to seeing you had a business, to what extent did you feel possessive of it and the idea of power? Because before you incorporated, it wasn't even in black and white lead leads, but once you're in LLC, you have power when you manage it. And as you're giving it around, was that difficult for you or is that just not in your nature? I'd say it's not in my nature. I don't know if this will answer your question or not, but I will do my best. At no point did we, did this start with the intention of building a company because it elevates you in a financial or a social or an economical status type of position. Like I said, there's no golden throne that we're sitting on over here, like just watching people work from a position of power. That's never happened. It's not something I've ever been interested in. I think it's, for me, building a company ended up being a passion and it was a passion of bringing people together. I didn't realize that at first, but once we started building a team and getting really good people in, to me what I recognized as being the most valuable was the people that I worked with. That is another question since I get that sense that it's not about power in the company, so the company is there. You see your role as actually being the major HR support for all of the people on your team, but what about in the cutthroat world of business, once a company gets bigger and bigger, it becomes harder and harder to maintain it. What about the management functions of company control since someone has to define the mission of where it's going and predicting the future for the company? Do you outsource that or do you consider that part of your role as CEO? So I would, I definitely do consider that part of my role. I've always been pretty, I keep everything, I keep things pretty close to me in terms of making decisions. Six months ago, I gave away 25% of my company and I gave it away because I wanted these people involved and I gave it away because I felt that they had earned it and I felt that I wanted them to have a voice. I knew that technically I had the ability to guide the company wherever I wanted, whether it was as a tyrannical dictator or benevolent dictator or anything, or it could be as a backseat driver, it doesn't matter, but technically I had that ability. It wasn't until about maybe two months ago that I would ever use the words, the phrase CEO, to describe my position. I still hate it and frankly use it only because it does describe what I do and sometimes I've had a hard time telling people what I do so now I just default to I run a software company because it's simpler. I struggled with a long time with building, I really love the idea of a flat structure for companies. There are no managers, there are no bosses, technically anybody that works for me, I am your boss but I was actually very conscious early on, once I first decided I wanted to hire people of don't come work for me, come work with me because I think that's a very important distinction. As we've grown, we found that the flat structure does tend to break down a little bit. For us it happened at about 15 people, I know another company that it happened to them at 50 people, I know another company that happened maybe around 30 people but eventually it does break down simply because when you have enough people that work freely with their own direction, eventually you end up with too many spider webs and you have to kind of bring them back in and you have to focus them a little bit better. And so the roles of managers are not to be bosses, the roles of managers are to provide direction and make sure that things stay on track. So for me, my position is not to be that my team's boss, it is to help guide the direction and then anybody that does get given a role of manager it's to help implement that direction. I hope that kind of answered your question. So with having 18 employees now, do you outsource any patient or do you have a bomb house? We have outsourced work and every now and then we do still have outside contractors that we work with. We do very little of it now though because we've found that the ultimate experience that we have is less if we outsource it. And it's not because the people that we outsource to do poor work or anything like that, it's just that if we outsource it, it doesn't end up the way that we tend to quite want it. It maybe doesn't quite fit the image that we had in mind. From whichever perspective it is, sometimes it's from a coding perspective, sometimes it's a design perspective, sometimes it's just the way the project works. And so we like to keep it in-house because we want all of our experiences for our products to be consistent. And if we outsource it, we tend to lose some of that consistency. I would rather find a developer or a designer or whatever project that we're working on, find somebody that I would outsource to them and then decide, you know what, this is actually somebody that we want to work with consistently and I'd rather just hire them. What about like having a 70 or 80? So accounting and legal, they are technically outsourced, but they are outsourced to very specific people that have always done it for us. They've done it both of them now for about five years. And as long as they will allow me to continue to pay them, they can continue doing their job because they know it really well. They know us very well and we would consider them a team member, aside from the fact that they don't really interact with the rest of the team. You've been doing this for a while. Have you established relationships with employees so well that they just trust you to lead them right and in the right direction and they never want to compete with you? Or do you, like, do you establish non-compete agreements as you hire? Cause, you know. So I would say in general, we have established a level of trust. I don't hire anybody that I would not trust with my life. I don't hire anybody. If I don't want to be on a desert island with you for three months, you're probably not going to join my team. That's just be honest. I mean, depending on your skill set, maybe you are a better candidate than others for being on a desert island. But as far as trust goes, to me, that's very important. Our contracts at some point, this will probably bite me, but our contracts are super simple and we do not establish non-competes. We have a few set requirements and it's basically that if you work for us, you do have a voice that represents the company and that is to be, you need to be mindful of that and that's about it. That's about as far as our contracts go. I'm not interested in non-competes. If you start going off on the side and building side projects, that's awesome. Side projects are where we get really good at things. Side projects are passion projects. Side projects help us get better. Side projects motivate us. So I think that's really important. And frankly, if your passion is to go do this other little thing, if I want to stomp out your passion, then I'm an asshole and I'd rather not be one. Is that two minutes or two questions? Two minutes, all right, go. Thank you, Pepin. If you could go back in time, back to those college dorm, the college room that first year, so what would you change or what advice would you give somebody that's in that position today, that you know what, if I would have just done this, I would be so much more better positioned today? I think I want to preface this by saying that today we are so much further than I ever thought that I would be. So I don't look at it from the perspective of, dang, if I'd only done this, I would be so much better off or I would be so much further along. But to still answer your question is to not assume that I have to do everything. Get better at trusting people earlier. Get better at hiring people to do the job that I hire them for and trust them to do it. That took me three to four years to really learn the value of. So I would hire sooner, but not just hire sooner, I would trust sooner and trust people to do their jobs really well. All right, I think that pretty much wraps up my time. Thank you very much for listening to me.