 Mynd i siŵr, rhan i fynd. Dwi bod i weld arall. Eau'r gwahodd hwnnw yn cael ei ddechrau i ysguwr CISD, neu'n cael ei dda'r cymhwyl. O痴wch, y ddwy'r gwahodd hwnnw'n ymwyl ar ysguir yw Dr. Hesann, Alasio Aestani. Rwy'n disgwyl bod i'n ei ei siŵr. Rwy'n stryfu. Rydyn am gwrs o clynydd ar gyfer ddar unrhyw of Dr Sharostani's career. But on a day when we've had a government reshuffle in this country, it's safe to say that you've occupied many of the portfolios that our current Prime Minister is busily rearranging in this country within Iraq. It is no little story though that beyond your career in government that you have such an interesting tale to tell, and I'm sure we'll hear elements of that during the course of this evening and indeed in terms of the question and answer which I invite you to join in afterwards. But the main emphasis that we want to enjoy with your company this evening is looking at lessons from Iraq in combating terrorism. And that's an issue that affects many of us, not only within Iraq but within the region and indeed within the United Kingdom also that's suffered its proportionate share shall we say of terrorist activity. So without any further to do I'd like to hand over the stage to Dr Sharostani and allow him to tell us a little more. So over to you sir. Thank you. Welcome. Good evening. It is a great pleasure to be with you this evening at such a prestigious university to talk about terrorism and lessons we have learned in combating it in Iraq. But first I would like to thank Suas Center for International Studies and Diplomacy for inviting me to its annual lecture to talk on such an important topic that has become the most pressing issue of concern to the safety and security of our societies in the 21st century. I will discuss our struggle in Iraq against terrorists who overrun large parts of the country and committed outrageous atrocities against the people. I also find it necessary to cover the ideological background that has led so many young people in the Muslim world and among Muslim communities in the rest of the world to be attracted to such terrorist groups and our collective responsibility to combat terrorism and extremism ideologies that pose a threat to our humanity at large and our common human values and heritage. I'll use the word Daesh to refer to the entity that calls itself the Islamic State in Iraq and Lebanon. Which is more commonly known as ISIS or ISIL. Because calling it Islamic makes us unintentionally fall in the trap that the organization endeavours to divide the world into Muslims and non-Muslims entrenched against each other. For years Daesh overrun significant territories in northeastern Syria and northwestern Iraq. Totalling about 100,000 kilometers secure, they managed to recruit tens of thousands of foreign fighters from as many as 110 countries around the world. And Daesh, a spokesperson of Muhammad al-Adnani at the time, declared that their caliphate would, quote, remain and expand throughout the Middle East and into Europe. Overtime Daesh and its allied terrorist groups expanded to areas in Afghanistan, Libya, Nigeria, Somalia, Yemen, the Sahara region and Southeast Asia. The organization has also sleeping cells in more than 50 countries in the world. It is a potent danger to many societies. And in the last three years alone Daesh al-Qaeda and affiliated groups carried out 45,000 attacks in 25 countries, killing about 117,000 people. 30% of whom were Iraqis and 16% were Afghanis. When Iraqis started its campaign to free the country from Daesh two years ago, the terrorist group commanded about 15,000 foreign fighters in Iraq from many countries and almost 20,000 locals. Over the radios terrorists were speaking, Russian, French, English, Dutch, Pashto and Arabic with non-Iraqi dialects. All Iraqis areas that were overrun by Daesh has been liberated. Now, including major cities of Mosul, Ramadi, Tikrit, Fallujah, Tallahfar, Hawija and Al Qaib at the Syrian borders, with a total population of more than 6 million people. Since liberation of these areas, 2.8 million people who fled Daesh have returned to their homes. But there are still nearly 3 million people who are internally displaced. In this campaign Iraqi armed forces, including the popular mobilization, Peshmerga and tribal volunteers, managed so far to eliminate about 29,000 terrorists. Almost half of them were killed in the Mosul city. These forces have fought one of the most difficult and intense urban battles since the World War II. Protection of the civilian population was top priority for the Iraqi forces, often at a great risk to themselves. And this was the reason why the battle for Mosul, for example, almost took seven months. Where combating forces failed to strictly observe the engagement rules, the Iraqi government announced that it would investigate all allegations. Never the rest, there have been incidents when local residents whose family members have been executed by Daesh took revenge actions against the terrorist families. This is in contrast to what was propagated to the population that they will face sectarian killings. In any case, the lesson to be learned is that local police force should be trained and ready to move in to any immediately liberated even before humanitarian aid arrives. To Iraqis, the human cost so far has been about 34,000 civilians. I'm just talking about the battle of Daesh because Iraqis lost more people during the insurgencies area. And about 11,000 combatants. Most of them were killed in mass executions of captured soldiers in the initial wave of attack and civilians who have resisted occupation of their towns or have tried to escape from Daesh controlled areas. Despite these great sacrifices, the threat of Daesh in Iraq should not be considered eliminated without a parallel effort in Syria. Since the remaining areas it occupies in that country borders Iraq's vast northwestern desert that is difficult to patrol. However, the situation in Syria is significantly different. There we witness a full scale civil war that has created an opportunity for Daesh and Alqaida to control large areas of that country. The campaign against Daesh and Alqaida affiliated Al Nusraff rent by the Syrian armed forces and its affiliated militants with Russian air support on the one hand and by the Kurdish and Arab units of Syrian democratic forces, SDF, with the support of a global coalition on the other hand, succeeded so far to dislodge them from more than 90% of the area they occupied including Raqqa, the capital city of the Caliphate, the Resort and the border town of Albu Kamal. However, although the end of Daesh in Syria is practically in hand, another terrorist organization Al Nusraff rent with similar extremist ideology still occupies large swaths of Idlib province and has become a gathering point for the remaining members of Daesh. The de-escalation of confrontation between the regime forces and the opposition through ceasefire or other arrangements is necessary to focus all efforts on defeating these terrorist groups in Syria. Fortunately, this goal is now prioritized by all actors in Syria and their international backers. However, the Syrian crisis would not be resolved without a political settlement between the regime and its political opponents. The longer it takes for the parties to the conflict to sit together under UN auspices in Geneva, in Syria or elsewhere to reach peaceful solution to their political differences, the more blood would be shed to reach the same results. It is also encouraging that all parties to the conflict in Syria agree on maintaining the territorial integrity of the country and the right of the Syrian people to determine their future by Syrian-led political settlement. Outside actors should encourage all parties to meet, discuss and agree on a roadmap for peaceful settlements rather than arming them to prolong the civil war, my voice and my code. Although the final defeat of Daesh and associated groups in the region is in sight, but we should not overlook the fact that many foreign terrorist fighters would be returning home or relocated in third countries where they would pose serious threats to those societies. The UN Undersecretary for Counterterrorism Vladimir Varenkov reported to the Security Council recently that, quote, there are at least 5,600 fighters from 33 countries who have returned home. Many returnees are very well trained and equipped to carry out attacks in their own countries. Others hope to radicalize and recruit new followers to their cause, unquote. From Europe alone there were about 5,000 terrorists who have gone to fight in the Middle East including around 800 from the UK. It is estimated that around 30% have returned home. Among those returning there are about 400 who came back to the UK. Many foreign terrorists have also been captured in Iraq plus about 1,500 wives and children of these terrorists. Those who have committed crimes in Iraq would be tried there, but their wives and children must be repatriated to their countries that don't seem to be very keen to receive them back. Iraq also gathered valuable information about Daesh terrorists from computer data and paper registries that have been captured in the liberated areas. These include names, nationalities and tasks assigned to each member. Based on these data and other sources, Interpol currently has 19,000 terrorists on its surveillance list. And it is extremely important that all countries cooperate with Interpol to follow up on these terrorists to minimize the dangers they pose to their own communities and countries. Now I would like to move to another front of a battle against terrorism and caution that the military defeat by itself is not enough to eliminate the dangers these terrorists pose to humanity at large. The decisive battle against them is ideological and the responsibility primarily lies on the Muslims themselves, in the Muslim world and on the Muslim communities in the rest of the world. Allow me to elaborate at this point. The ideology adhered to by Daesh, al-Nusra, al-Qaeda, Taliban and all self-immilitants is extreme interpretation of Islam that was advocated by Ibn Abdul Wahab in the Arabian desert in the mid 18th century. That denounced traditional Islamic practices and considered the majority of Muslims as infidels and rejected the traditional diversity and pluralism of Islam. The spread of Wahabism in the last four decades in some Muslim countries and among Muslim immigrant communities in the west was funded by the petrodollars to gain political influence. Much of the secret support for these terrorist groups have serviced now that some of those countries got entangled in political realm and exposed each other's role. On the bright side, this is an opportunity for all to reconsider their plans to use terrorist groups to achieve political gains and realize that these groups pose as much danger to their own country as to the rest of the world. To understand the causes of jihadi terrorism and why so many young people in Muslim countries and from Muslim communities elsewhere are attracted to it, we should consider the root causes and what can be done collectively to face this challenge. There is a combination of various factors that give rise to radicalism, violence and terrorism among the youth in particular. These include political, economic and social grievances and teaching extremism in the name of religion. In the Muslim countries, the responsibility mostly lies with the governments. Political oppression and fair distribution of national wealth, widespread corruption, failure to provide essential services, lack of social justice and bad governance are all factors that fuel deep resentment among deprived masses. Some young persons among these depressed people would be attracted to extremist groups who advocate that there is no way out of their misery other than resorting to violence. On the other hand, in countries with sizeable Muslim communities such as UK, there are other factors that are sources of grievances that if not addressed may also lead some individuals to resort to violence. These include intolerance, discrimination, lack of social cohesion and disrespect of cultural differences. Abses of effective platforms for these resentments to be expressed and the grievances to be addressed leads to a buildup of a feeling of injustice and such communities become fertile grounds for recruitment of terrorists. It is also a historical fact that Muslims have been victims of atrocities by others. The decades-long suffering of the Palestinians and the genocide of the Rohingya are daily reminders to many young Muslims, Muslim men, that the world does not care about their suffering. Unless they take up arms to defend themselves. One should also not overlook the historical, ethnic and sectarian divisions among the Muslim nations in many countries. These differences have recently been stirred up for political expediency and sectarian division have been cultivated by some actors in the Middle East to redirect attention from their own political and social problems. Having discussed the threat terrorism presents to humanity and its root causes, let us ponder what our joint responsibility to face this challenge is. The world should realize that Daesh and its comrades of all shades of self-immilitance are a real threat to all, not just brutal terrorist groups in some part of the world. No country should wait until one of its cities is attacked or its citizens are murdered to comprehend the seriousness of this threat. It is not sufficient to draw local or even national plans to deal with them. These terrorist groups should be fought at the global, regional, national and local levels, not only in Iraq and Syria or in Libya or Afghanistan, but in all the 101 countries where the new jihadis are recruited today. Muslims themselves should be at the forefront in combating militants that terrorize the world in the name of their religion. The responsibility to drain the recruitment grounds lies primarily with the Muslims themselves. Muslim scholars are called upon to rethink, reform and reinterpret certain classical and medieval texts about jihad. For that purpose, the scholars and Muslims in general must irrevocably condemn any act of terrorism under any banner and for any cause. Patriotic struggle for just causes does not require terrorist acts against innocent people. Schools, mosques and religious centers in the Muslim countries and within Muslim communities in the rest of the world that preach extremism ideologies are fertile grounds for recruitment of would-be jihadis. These should be carefully monitored and held accountable for breeding terrorists that threaten security of their society and the world at large. Freedom of belief should not be allowed to be used as a pretext for advocating extremism that lead to terrorism. More attention should be paid to address the causes that attract young people to such terrorist groups. Engagement of marginalized and frustrated communities by developing national policies to absorb them into the larger community and addressing the issues that agitate them is essential to deprive the terrorists from recruiting new volunteers. In Iraq, a hard lesson has been learned that without the full participation of all the ethnic and religious communities in the political system and addressing the grievances of these communities, whether these grievances are factual or perceived, is cornerstone to a national reconciliation program that allows all citizens to feel free, protected and equal. Civil wars in Syria, Libya and Yemen are attracting grounds for terrorists. Speedy resolution of these conflicts through peaceful settlement among the warring parties that allow the people of these countries to determine their future and choose the political system that serves them best is necessary, not only to protect the civilian population, but also to deprive terrorist safe havens for recruitment and training. A more urgent need that the international community should pay attention to is the paramount importance of rebuilding the liberated areas when terrorists are cleared and helping the traumatized population in these areas. Such reconstruction program, in addition to providing the basic human needs, would encourage people to return to their homes and rebuild their lives. It would also create jobs for the unemployed youth who otherwise could be attracted to such terrorist groups out of desperation. The cost of reconstruction and rehabilitation of victim communities are enormous. Only in Iraq, the material destruction inflicted by Daesh is about $47 billion, according to the Ministry of Planning field survey recently, excluding the damage to the archaeological sites that is priceless. In Syria, the UN Special Envoy for Syria, Staffan Dimistore, has said rebuilding Syria will cost at least $250 billion. It is encouraging that a donor conference is planned to be held next month in Kuwait to coordinate international efforts to raise funds to rebuild areas liberated from Daesh and help displaced people to return to their homes. However, the immediate and urgent need is to restore the basic water, power, medical and educational infrastructures. The UN outlined an appeal of $1.3 billion for post-ISIS humanitarian and civilisation requirements in Iraq. This is a small cost compared to the human costs and the resources that have already been dedicated to combating terrorism. To conclude, I would like to emphasise that terrorism has become a major threat to security and order in the 21st century, and it demands a more collective response. No state on its own can deal with transnational terrorism, and without international cooperation it is not possible for any country to protect its citizens from terrorism. Daesh has been defeated on the ground in Iraq and Syria and would not be able to operate from geographic bases in these countries at least. We have succeeded to dismantle its physical kill effect, but it has exported terrorism to other countries and is planning to terrorise the world. They will continue their mission in three ways. First, by trying to establish new bases in countries with conflicts such as Afghanistan, Libya and Yemen, as many of those who have left Iraq and Syria headed to these countries. Second, they will also use their sleeping cells to carry out attacks such as the Sinai Mosque in November last year that killed 309 worshippers. Thirdly, they will direct lone wolves to contact terror assaults in many of the European and American cities. These kinds of terror activities are expected to continue for some time, but at much lower human cost to the mass slaughter and genocide campaign carried out by Daesh in the areas they controlled. The most effective tool to defeat terrorism is to resolve military conflicts peacefully, particularly in Syria, Libya and Yemen, tackle poverty in the world and work together to lift up communities that suffer from social exclusion or economic deprivation and make the world more just and indurable for all its inhabitants. We should not win the war but lose the peace. Thank you. If you'd be kind enough to pop your hand up and identify your name, affiliation is relevant, I'll be happy to take two or three questions to start with. Gentleman there with the red scarf, I'll come to you first and I'll come down here. Gentleman down here in the red jacket will come to you as well. We'll come back. I don't think we'll have time this evening to go into much detail about the Palestinian differences and how it can be resolved, although I do have some ideas. I'm not claiming that they are acceptable to Netanyahu or to Trump perhaps, but I don't believe any human conflict is beyond resolution. Humans have been endowed with the capacity to be able to cope, deal and find solutions to their problems. But the least that can be done if we cannot resolve the Palestinian question is to raise our voices in protest of gross human rights violations, attacks on civilians in the Gaza and make sure that the minimum standard of acceptable human living standard, living standard is made available to them. Otherwise when people, young Muslims throughout the world are exposed to these nightly television coverage of how the children are being attacked, how this young girl in Palestine has been treated in the courts and so on. You cannot help but expect that young people are going to be attracted to terrorist groups. I'm not saying all Muslims obviously, the overwhelming majority of them wouldn't, but some young people out of desperation will feel that there is no other way in this world but to stand up and take up arms and to defend their oppressed brothers and sisters. This is a fact, this has been a very strong recruiting point for Daesh and similar groups throughout the Muslim world. The question here around relationships to other conflicts and how you saw the gestation of this in the Cold War perhaps. You are absolutely right that the Mujahideen were basically created, helped, supported, trained, financed and encouraged by the West and the Gulf countries in Afghanistan to fight the Soviet Union at the time. The experiment has been very successful. They have proved a very important force that can even challenge the Soviet army in Afghanistan at the time. They did not realise at the time, if I want to give them the benefit of doubt, that cultivating terrorism can backfire in their own societies and elsewhere. I will even go beyond that and say that some countries, without naming any in public because I could be sued by them, they thought that that experiment can be repeated in Syria, bringing them there, training them, arming them, can bring down regimes changes to their like. It was later on in the Syrian war when it expanded into Iraq and Daesh and the rest of it, that they did realise how dangerous that game can be to their own societies. I think now most those who have supported in one way or another, none of them would say publicly that they did support actually, but we do have a lot of that together in Iraq by capturing these people, how they were supported, where they were trained, how they were equipped and so on. And they do realise that this was not necessarily the best thing to do to propagate their political agenda in these countries. I believe now almost all have come to the conclusion that terrorism is no way to propagate your political agenda and we have to work all together to eliminate it. Now, as I try to discuss, militarily that can be done. We have proved it in Iraq that it can be done even by the Iraqis themselves because despite all this international propaganda and so on, there was a very limited role for the international coalition in helping the Iraqis. Not a single soldier on the ground fought along with the Iraqis to defeat Daesh. But militarily they can be defeated, but the ideological war is a very serious war and those countries, particularly the Gulf countries, who have been propagating this kind of extremist ideologies for various reasons at various times have come to the conclusion that this has to be rectified. They have to deal with it now before it is really as much danger to their own societies and countries as it was to Iraqis and Syrians. We have a significant cluster around here. So I'm going to take the gentleman with the red tie and then I'm going to move my way forward a little bit. I'll take three questions. Sir. Thank you, Dr Sharostani, for such a fascinating talk. My question relates really to the relationship between unemployment or employment and the level of terrorism in Iraq. From your time as Minister of Oil, Deputy Prime Minister for Energy, in Western Anbar, in Western Iraq, there's a very large gas field, the AKAS gas field, I think 1.6 trillion cubic feet of gas there, and now that Daesh have been defeated in that area in Al Qaim, hopefully that field will be redeveloped. And some of that gas, perhaps at some point in the future, will be used for local industry and hopefully will create jobs there. Now I'm not saying, I don't want to say that terrorism in Iraq is related to unemployment because I think it's very complicated. I agree with you that it's more complicated than that. But do you think that provinces like Anbar can have more control or should have more control over their energy matters? Or do you think that these provinces, these Governments, should be confident that the Ministry of Oil, the Ministry of Finance can handle these matters and then transfer the revenues back to the provinces? Thank you. Well, thank you for that question. I think you have touched on a very sensitive, very important issue. Yes, the province of Anbar has very large gas deposits. As a matter of fact it has very large phosphate deposits also, one of the largest in the world. And without developing economically that part of Iraq, and for that matter any other part of Iraq, you cannot expect the young people just to sit at home and wait for the government to do something about them. They have had some bad experience of the help not coming from Baghdad. I think everybody in Baghdad is aware, not everybody, but people in responsibility are very much aware of this. As a matter of fact I was aware of it since the bid rounds for the developing of the oil fields. If you remember it seems you are following up the Iraqi energy sector and the Anbar gas field was put on the bid rounds and the international companies were called in 2010 even before any of this has really got out of the hand to develop that region. And the contract was signed, as a matter of fact, with the Koreans to develop that gas field, that gas gas fields. However, the terrorist activities, the insurgencies in Anbar, even before Daesh, and then when Daesh took over the province, as a matter of fact it is taking over all the province from the Syrian borders all the way to Fen Lugia, which is next door to Baghdad. At the time it was impossible to do anything there. Now I personally have sent a letter to the Prime Minister saying that I think it's extremely important to develop Anbar and Mosul, these two provinces, and Saladin for that matter, and to create employment for the young people if we expect to stabilize these areas. And stop the young people to even consider joining terrorist groups. Well, that's maybe mainly correct, but from my reading I've been trying for the past four years to understand this ideology and I read a lot about it. I'm originally from Iraq and I studied, I'm a Muslim as well, so I studied only all spectrum of Islam. Believe me, in all spectrum of Islam the ideology of Daesh is there. We need a revolution, and this should be led by politicians like you, who is an Islamist and a politician, is to push the untouchables of Egypt, Azhar, Najaf, all the Islamic centers to purify this great religion from all this traditions accumulated through the history and created those people. This will not go, believe me, you defeated Daesh even if you defeat Salafis themselves. Still this ideology does exist between Shia, Sunnis, Azhar, all spectrum of Muslims. There must be a revolution to change this. Islam is isolated. Believe me, it is isolated in the world. It's not likeable because of what's been added through the history to it. We have to really start a revolution in that. Thank you. Well thank you very much for that comment. I do agree with you completely. I've said in my presentation that it is primarily the responsibility of the Muslim scholars to revisit some of the medieval texts and reconsider them and reinterpret them. You are right. In all schools of thoughts since the early days, there are references to this kind of jihadism and so on. It is true. However, and it's also a historical fact at various times, the Muslims have taken acts of violence against Muslims. This is history. You cannot deny it. But Islam is a religion in its totality. Not only the Quran, but also the Hadiths of the Prophet, the scholars, the Imams and so on. If you take it in totality, it is a religion of peace. It's a religion of trying to make this world a better world for all humans. Again, I'm not saying that there are no certain texts. You can always point out to them and find out and so on. I do agree with you completely. Now is the time for the Muslim scholars throughout the Muslim world, Al-Talazer, Al-Najaf, Qom, elsewhere in the world, really to revisit all those texts and try to put Islam in the new light after this experience. Because I think they all realize, and they should realize, that Islam itself has been the biggest victim of Daesh. The human cost has been huge everywhere in the world. But it was the Muslims that were the main victims of it. And it was the religion itself that has been victim of this interpretation of Islam. And it is their responsibility to bring the other Islam to the world. And I cannot blame really the non-Muslims if they misunderstand Islam and you said it's not likable. I can see that. And it is really the responsibility of the Muslims themselves to not only dissociate themselves but to reject these ideologies, these extremist ideologies as a possible interpretation of the religion. This should be completely put to history and not be referred to at all or interpreted in a different way than the way it has been used by Daesh or the Salafist militants or the Wahhabis in the past. Gentleman with the red scarf and I'm going to come to the lady down here and then we'll go back to that gentleman. Absolutely, you don't see the division which was made by the Americans in Sia and Sunni. Fending of any creation of Daesh was the result of the American Army. Disbanding of the army of the, now they are creating an issue about the Iran and you see creating a caucus valley to attack. What do you see about that? I mean I could, I would agree with what you have said but I personally would not put all the blame for helping to create or supporting or encouraging Daesh or any other extremist group on the American policy makers alone or on Western intelligence services alone. It would not be right from my point of view for the Muslims to dissociate themselves from accepting responsibility. What we have just discussed earlier, there are some medieval texts that have been taught at mosques in various countries. That must be stopped. True, but if you have lived in Iraq under Saddam you would have realized how deep the Shias communities who see what happened to be more than 50% of the country were oppressed and feeling that they could not really trust their own family members. I remember when I first, by the way, I should have acknowledged Dr John Foren as a British doctor who went with me to Iraq on the 7th of April, 2003, even two days before the fall of the regime in Baghdad on a humanitarian mission. I thank him for coming here tonight. I have not seen him for years now. At that time we just went to Iraq after many, many years. I spent 11 years in prison and then I was 10 years outside in exile as a refugee and so on. So I really wanted to understand the Iraqi people and what changes have happened to the community. And I still remember, I'll be discussing this tomorrow with a group of your students as a matter of fact because they wanted to learn my own personal experience living under Saddam, living after Saddam and what's going on. And I still remember during some of those visits when I found people and John remembers they didn't have a drinking water. The water was sinking in Basra. They couldn't drink it. There was no drinking water and everything else but yet people were accepting all this hardship. And he said, and I remember one family I told them, but why with all this poverty that you live in? He says, at least we can sleep at night because under Saddam any knock on my door, on my neighbor's door, we thought that our young men are going to go and never see them again. At least now I can sleep and not be scared of any knock on the door. So under Saddam there was a real feeling of oppression for the Shia community. This has come up after the fall. This has not been created by the Americans. Yes, the Americans can be blamed for some of the faults. I'm not saying they shouldn't. But this has been hidden there. Syria, can you really blame the Syrian people, the majority of them are Sunnis who have not really been able to be free under an Alawite regime? It is not exactly. So this is a natural feeling. Now if others come like the Americans in Iraq or many other countries, the Americans in the West and the Gulf countries in Syria, if they come and cultivate these deep rooted feelings of the people, it will come up. Sir, I have other questions for me. Lady here for me. Good evening. Thank you so much for your talk. My question would be regarding the returned fighters who, let's say... Can I speak a bit louder please? Yes. My question would be regarding what is your opinion about the returned fighters who, for example, have gone and changed their minds. There are a lot of people who we read about who come back and are disappointed with the ideology at the end of the day. And what is their role in terms of de-radicalising those that come back or how could society, not just the West, I think even in the Muslim countries that have contributed, unfortunately in a large part also to the fighters. What is their role in terms of reintegrating these people into the society in a positive matter? Did you catch that? I think there's a question around, and forgive me if I'm paraphrase, the reintegration of returning fighters, particularly those whose attitudes have changed by their exposure to the experience of being within Dyshaw Islamic State environments. The terrorists that have gone to the Middle East. Yeah, and then sort of effectively come back even within the Muslim State. And you said their attitudes have changed. Where has it changed in the Middle East or after coming back? Well, is that within the exposure to the Islamic State? It is true that many people, particularly from the West, have been attracted to Daesh controlled areas with the understanding that there will be a kind of different life and the Islamic guidance and so on. And when they went there, that was in the case. And some of them have tried to leave. Some of them succeeded, some of them they didn't. They were punished very severely. But as far as I know, I don't claim to be expert on the Daesh followers in communities in Syria. I know more about the Daesh in Iraq than the Daesh in Syria. And I cannot generalize. I cannot automatically assume that what we have seen in Iraq is necessarily exactly the situation in Syria. That is a very, very small minority. These are individuals. Most of the foreigners who have gone there are psychopaths. Our people have gone there because it was an area where they can kill and they can attack others and so on. This is a fact and I don't know how much you have been following it or not. But there was this doctor from Australia physician who brings his four years old son to Syria and teaches him how to chop heads with a doll. He gives a knife to his kid, a four years old, to teach him how to cut off a doll's head and so on. These are not people that have been just guided or have gone there because they thought there will be some paradise on earth. These are people who are dangerous to their own communities. They have not really been able to carry out crimes till they have seen it, practiced and authorized and acceptable in Iraq and Syria. I personally don't believe that those people will ever find peace with themselves or with their societies. They will always be dangerous. I'm going to take two questions at a time. I'm going to say the gentleman here and the gentleman there. I'm not saying that we should keep them in Iraq but I'm just warning the rest of the world that be careful. Then I'm going to come to the lady here and the gentleman there. Sir, thank you very much for your talk. It's a comment and a question. You said fighting Daesh in Syria has been led by the Syrian army with the support of Russia on one hand and the Syrian democratic forces or the Kurdish forces and international coalition on the other hand. Unfortunately, it seems that you didn't mention anything about the free Syrian army or the opposition groups right from the beginning. I come from a town in Idlib in Syria. Daesh came to a small town called Adana in Idlib in 2012. That's even before anyone knew about Daesh. It was the people and there is a brigade called Jabeth War Syria which actually kicked them out of the town. There is a big report by the current age centre talking about the oil deals between ISIS and Assad. Releasing the detainees by Assad of Salafist with people of Salafist ideologies. Again, it's the opposition groups who defeated ISIS in so many battles in Idlib and Aleppo. For me, it is more along with the reasons that you mentioned of the rise of ISIS. It is the dictatorships like Assad in Syria and also in other countries in the Arab world that facilitated and led to the rise of ISIS. Especially that Assad and Russia used the war against ISIS to crush the opposition in Syria where the death toll more than 90% of the death toll in Syria was responsible like held by Assad and the barrel bombs not by ISIS. That's not of course justification of ISIS but just to mention the facts. My question is about the medieval and classical text of religion. Although I see that there is no religion that promotes for peace or for war. It is about the way that we interpret the texts. Most of the interpretations on Quran itself were driven out of interpretations of Ibn Qaim and Ibn Taymiah who a lot argue that he held extremist views. So don't you think or do you agree that there should be revisiting of the interpretation of the Quran itself? Thank you very much. I have three questions if you don't mind. First of all, how do you see the future of Iraq where we have a constitution voted on in 2005 by the majority of the population, I think more than 76 of the population. And the role of Gran Ayatollah Alsistani who basically can make a fatwa tomorrow and then the whole country can follow. So how do you see this conflict between the one person deciding for the whole country and the constitution? Secondly, how do you see now in the last few months we have been hearing that some politicians in the country trying to change the law. The personal status law where girls can get married at the age of nine. And this is after the controversy for this is actually where Iraq is just was about to turn the page and defeat ISIS and this evil ideology. At the same time we see the government or people in this government are actually trying to change the law where they can get girls as little as nine years old to be forcibly married to, you know, how do you see the future for that country? And my third question is what are if we agree with my good friend there that the poverty and unemployment and deprivation is actually the source of terrorism. What are the plans by the Iraq government to rescue and to do something for Mosul and the planes of Nainawa and the other areas of the Sunni where they have suffered the most in the hands of the ISIS and most of the cities, almost 90% of the cities are completely destroyed. I have seen it by my own eyes reports of people that basically people are living under the bombed houses. They have no running water. They have no sewage. They have no future. The kids have no way to go to school and no medical support. How do you see this and is there any plans for any like conferences to raise funds and to do something for this? Thank you very much, sir. Thank you. Thank you. Well, thank you to our friend from Syria who has brought up this question. I did not mean to imply that the Syrian people or the Syrian opposition have not tried to have not rejected Daesh or have not tried to fight it. I was merely mentioning the fact that the main battles that were led against Daesh controlled areas that were liberated like Raqqa by the SDF and the international coalition or the Rizor, Albu Kamal and other areas by the Syrian army with the supporting militants that are there. I was referring to the major battles that liberated Daesh controlled areas in Syria. But you are right that there has been contribution from Syrian groups in the opposition and they have resisted. But let's again be practical that nobody could really face up to Daesh and defeat it in Syria if the Syrian people alone were left to do that job through the Syrian opposition and so on. That would not have been the case without the Syrian army, the militants that supported it, the Russian air cover, the American air cover, the Arab and Kurdish communities. Sorry? Yeah. Well, so that's what I was referring to. As to the three questions that were raised or the three points that were raised, the future of Iraq, I think the Iraqis have learned a hard lesson that fighting among themselves, allowing non-Iraqis to interfere in their affairs and their different pretexts. Dividing the communities along religious, sectarian, ethnic lines does not really help any of them to build free, prosperous, progressive country. Even among the Sunni communities in Iraq who have felt at times that resisting the Shia-led government in Iraq would help them to regain what they consider to be their rights. I think with the experiment or experience with Daesh, they have come to the realization that it was really the Iraqis from the south who have come to the rescue to free them from Daesh atrocities in their own regions. And I personally keep on hearing that from many of them. I don't have time now to go through personal instances that I've heard people in Tikrit and people in Mosul and so on, how grateful they were really for the liberation from Daesh after the atrocities and the suffering that they've seen. I think the Iraqis, more than any time that I know of in the recent history, are ready to accept each other, to respect each other, to live together in a free country. And my expectation is that Iraq will move forward after the experiences of, even before Daesh with other terrorist activities, to build a new Iraq that, as I said, a free, prosperous and progressive society and country. And for that, of course, you need to rebuild the destroyed areas. And Mosul is as much destroyed as any other area. I disagree with you that 90% of Mosul has been destroyed. I've been there too. As a matter of fact, the western part of the city, which is almost half of it, is flourishing now with markets and playing grounds for kids and so on. The eastern side, I'm sorry, the western side, the old Mosul, has been totally destroyed. That's where Daesh has fought its last battle. And that's where they lost most of their men, by the way. And that part of the Mosul needs a large reconstruction program. The Ministry of Planning in Iraq surveyed all the damages in that part of Mosul and in Anbar and in Salahuddin. And they came out with an estimate of $47 billion that is required. Iraq obviously doesn't have in its budget forecast for 2018 because of the oil prices in the world market. It doesn't have the necessary funds to do that in one or two or even three years. That's why Iraq is calling for international help. And I think it's whoever can in any way influence their own governments and so on. To really participate in reconstructing these areas, the more we could do together really to make sure that these areas are, people go back to their normal lives and their young people are busy reconstructing their homes, going to universities, looking for employment rather than be attracted to these ideologies. As for Sistani, as one man imposing his role on the Iraqi people, I don't think that's really the case. Sistani has been called on, not only by the Iraqis, but also by non-Iraqis, to play a role to calm the situation and get the communities to live together. And he refrains from playing that role. So it's not him really trying, you know, seeking a role for himself. On the contrary, his role has been extremely positive in the past. And now, I know this for a fact, the Sunnis in Iraq are more grateful to Sistani's than the other communities for the sense that he is taking in their support. As to the, some members of the parliament who try to change the civil law to allow marriage of young girls and so on, these are a few individuals who have just made some statements in the parliament. Nobody took it seriously at all. And it's a good point because it's supposed to be a religious issue, right? And you said that Sistani is the most influential person. Sistani is the person who has never mentioned this or accepted it or called for it. So you should not really take that. Sorry? I cannot hear. I'm sorry. He's suggesting that Sistani allows the marriage of nine-year-old women in his book. Who is marriage? Marriage of girls. Sistani claims that. Who is that? I'm saying some individuals in the parliament have raised the issue, but who have really accepted it? Who has even discussed it in the parliament? It has not even been discussed. Let's move on, shall we? Time is running short and we have a reception to get to. So I'm going to take the lady here who's waited very patiently and the gentleman there. Then I'm coming to the two gentlemen at the back. Good evening. Because we are talking about terrorist group and Daesh and Iraq announced the factory in the last few months. I think we are here. At least we can appreciate the people who made this factory in Iraq. Everybody here and I'm so appreciate. I see a lot of people who came and attend and have interest in this subject. I would like to tell them in Iraq we paid like very high price for this factory. It wasn't easy and this price, it's most of it paid by the young volunteer, young men who are volunteer to fight Daesh who called Al-Hajd-i-Shabi or mobilizing forces. My question to you doctor, we hear now it's most of the western group and human rights later and a lot of government and media, western media. They try to abuse the Hajd-i-Shabi exactly and call them till now, call them the sectarian abuser and they are militias and most of them they are Shi'a militia going to kill Sunnis which is that it's absolutely not true. Really the most of the popular mobilization forces started from the young people from the west, from the south and middle cities in Iraq and most of them are Shi'a. They joined by Sunnis, Turkman, Shebek, even Kurd later Yazidi to fight Daesh and we paid thousands and thousands of these young men who sacrificed their lives to save our country and save our people. What do you think? Why the western Europe tried to use the two faces of justice? Why dealing with these people and call them sometimes terrorists for the leaders of the Hajd-i-Shabi call them terrorists or call them sectarian militias? They don't appreciate that one and what the Iraqi government is going to do against to stop this harassment. Really we are really so sad about it. I'm Iraqi, I lived under Saddam and I lived after Saddam and I know what's going on in my country. Thank you. So you can take that question as well and then we'll have the answer quickly. I just wonder what lessons can Afghans and Americans learn from your war on Daesh and terror in Iraq on their war on terror in Afghanistan. You said that you fought the toughest war since the Second World War against Daesh and terror in Iraq and that's been quite tough despite Daesh having some sort of local support in Sunni areas. But you've been able to defeat them but whereas in Afghanistan Daesh has no local support at all and they only control pockets in some areas in the country. And the Americans dropped the mother of all bombs and that's the biggest bomb since the Second World War but they haven't been able to defeat the Daesh. What will be your advice to the Afghans and Americans? First of all I do sympathise with your frustration and I hear that in Iraq all the time. After all these sacrifices and hundreds, tens of thousands of lives that have been lost and although it may take a few minutes but let me tell you this story I'd like the audience to hear it. I've been a frequent visitor to the battle lines against Daesh and I'm taking some supplies for the young men who are fighting there. I was too old to join them. And at one point right at the front line there was this young guy from Hajdi Shabi, a leader just north of Beijing preparing for the battle of Mosul and he had a large number of volunteers of the Sunni young men from the Mosul area come and join his group as they were preparing to advance. And when they saw this leader of the Hajdi Shabi in the area was respecting me they came to me and said doctor we have a problem here and maybe you can help to solve it. This Ali the name of the guy who was from Karbala from my own town that's how he knew me he says this Ali has a very bad habit when he advances in a battle he doesn't allow anybody to be ahead of him nobody is allowed to be in the front line before him he has to be the first when he attacks. And we are advancing now to my own tribe in Shergah just south of Mosul and I am the head of the tribe I've come to volunteer here to free my people and if we go to my tribe and my people see me walking behind Ali try to liberate them. I can never join the tribe again please explain to him to allow me to be at the front line he cannot advance to my area and be in the front of me this doesn't work this is how the Hajdi Shabi were actually cooperating with the people in Mosul through trying to reach those people and liberate them. Now these stories are not told we do hear in the western media from Trump's administration all the time accusations against them and their leaders and so on. I can hear them as much as you can hear them but the Iraqi people do not just hear them they really get angry very much angry about this but let's face it. It is the Iraqis who have to build their own countries what the foreign media and foreign statements talk about is not going to be that influential in deciding the fate of the Iraq. If the Iraqis decide to live together in peace in harmony and respect and build their country I don't think these accusations will have any ears to listen to them in Iraq. People have seen it themselves sorry the second question was lessons what the US have learned well I cannot speak for the US we have to ask them that question but what I can say with personal conviction I don't think Trump administration have learned anything. Not only in the battle against Daesh but on many other fronts for that matter and yes I do see your point that Daesh has no local support in Afghanistan. It should have been much easier to help the Afghani people not necessarily just the government the Afghani people really to resist and not allow Daesh to grow roots in that society. Unfortunately that is not happening or at least to my knowledge I'm not experts on Afghanistan I've never been to that country I really don't know the situation but I follow what terrorists do in various parts of the world and definitely the tactic that needs to be used in Afghanistan is different from what we used in Iraq but one thing I know for sure and this is what we have learned in Iraq other than the Afghani people in Afghanistan nobody is going to liberate them nobody is going to kick Daesh out of their country and they should not depend on help from anybody else that's our experience in Iraq. So when I look at the current insurgency in Iraq I believe I trace it back to the operation Iraqi freedom it's origins there. I believe the military campaign there was very successful including the shock and awe campaign but what happened after that was the counter insurgency and the nation building phase went horribly wrong. My question to you is if you Bush or Dick Cheney for that matter how differently would you have carried out the nation building phase of that operation thank you. I agree with you that that invasion of Iraq had played a big role in the mess that was created in Iraq. Again I recall on CBS program it's called 60 Minutes I don't know if people see it in this country or not. I was interviewed before the invasion of Iraq what was my position at that time and I was not for the invasion. I was on record I was against the invasion of Iraq by the US Army and I told them my biggest fear is the Americans are going to go in Iraq without doing their homework as usual and they would you know face any situation they go to a society they don't understand they don't know and believe it or not as soon as they entered Iraq and I was there on a humanitarian mission and I was approached by a very senior American there and he was asking me who are these Marjats in Egypt who is Sistani. He has come to Iraq he has invaded Iraq and then he found out there is a Sistani guy in Najif who can be influential and all of a sudden he is asking who is the Sistani in Iraq. So without really understanding the Iraqi society they have invaded Iraq for other reasons you can ask Dick Cheney about them and they have contributed definitely to the mess that the Iraqis found them. But to blame all of that on American invasion is again falling to the game that the Salafi jihadists have played in the country. We cannot ignore that part of it either. Neither can we ignore the serious mistakes that were committed by the Iraqi administration after the fall of the regime. So there are a number of factors that have really contributed to that but on the bright side of it I think Iraqis have learned very expensively they paid very dearly for it but they have learned that they have to leave that all behind. What has happened has happened with Daesh now out of the country they can build their own country by themselves and they cannot do that unless they accept each other as they are. Sunnis have to remain Sunnis she has to remain she has to remain Christians have to be Christians and those communities have to work and live together and I think this is a lesson that has been learned by the Iraqi people. Thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure.