 Hello, welcome to the Judge Ben Show. My name is Ben Joseph. I'm a retired Vermont Superior Court Judge And this is one of a series of interviews that I've been doing about the issues that concern the Vermont courts specifically now the criminal courts my guest today is Officer Tom Nash who is the Director of the Chittenden unit for special investigations often referred to as QC CUSI its initials Tom What is CUSI? CUSI is the Chittenden unit for special investigations as you said which is a Task force consisting of detectives from around the county Dealing specifically with crimes of a sexual nature severe child abuse as well as infant fatality investigations Oh my and I take it you are an offer you you're you're a Burlington police officer Is that correct? I'm a sergeant detective sergeant with the Burlington police department per CUSI bylaws, which CUSI's been in existence now for over 28 years Wow next spring Spring of 2021 will be the 30-year anniversary for CUSI but as part of the bylaws the director is typically Appointed from Burlington police department a detective sergeant from Burlington police department. Yes, and This so do you handle complaints about cases like this from all the towns in Chittenden County? Yes, the cooperation was that Where a county-wide task force consists like I said consisting of there's seven detectives two from Burlington one from Colchester UVM South Burlington and I said two from Burlington Vermont State Police and Essex Police Department and myself and you supervise those people Yes Good job In an average year how many cases do you investigate? Hard to say depending on the time but like I said probably about right now We're probably up to about three 300 maybe how many roughly about 300 roughly Wow well and Now I know this isn't a typical year because of COVID and the courts and I Could do a whole show about that I suppose But in a typical year how many cases would would you be preparing for trial? Of it's it's again, it depends every every case is unique and that's the purpose of Kuzi's inception and existence over the last almost three decades now But each case is different So as far as sending to trial it's it's they're based on individual Assessments and whether or not the people involved want to go to trial being that it is very personal it is a Traumatic crime that so of an answer to your question. I would say approximately probably less than 50% Actually make it to court And how have the recent delays in the court system affected your work? Quite dramatically in the sense of that as far as Just just the interaction with with folks with with victims with witnesses suspects The interaction being that this is such a unique Type of Type of crime that it's very personable So it's hard when we can't get face-to-face with someone and offer them the services that we need As far as the numbers, I don't think there had been any drastic changes either way either pro or negative In the number one of things that we have uncovered though or not uncovered but With some we we work very closely with DCF in conjunction with them In conjunction with them Families correct there has been a noticeable increase in the last two three months for cases involving children that DCF is also Involved in and I'm not sure if that's based on the the schools being closed since last March and Children not having a safe place to disclose if if they're if their home life is is not Suitable or or it is not a safe place a lot of places that children will disclose our schools Activities after school programs things like that well So Has there been any decline in the number any effect on the number of cases of sexual assault that are reported to you Like I said, I wouldn't see that I I'd have to run the numbers more specifically, but nothing Nothing drastically nothing drastic in either direction. No But I gather that some of these some of these complaints may come to you from other organizations like the Vermont network against domestic violence and Voices against violence and those those groups absolutely hope works the hospital a number of Community agencies out there helping to reduce sexual violence. We get a lot of referrals from yes And do you work with them and trying to work with the victims? Yes, that that is the overall goal of Cousy is a multi-disciplinary approach That it's a little being that the nature of these crimes are sensitive They're very traumatic they're personal We work try to work very closely with other agencies in support of victims Well and everywhere from the hospital to Well, I I I realize a lot of these cases don't go to trial But those that do go to trial I gather you're working with those organizations to support the victims and witnesses Absolutely one of the things that we had is in our office that I did mention mention mention in addition to the detectives Law enforcement detectives there is a dedicated we have a dedicated victim advocate from the Chittenden County State's Attorney's Office She works solely for our office and she It works tremendously With with victims that come in or even alleged victims as when they come in for initial interview And then that she works them with them throughout the process when it when it even prior to going to court And then certainly during court and after court Well, I think it's a big before going to court is a critical time Well, what what have the delays in cases getting to trial? I mean what I gather now is that nothing's going to trial. Is that right? No, they've Slowly started to open up The the caseload obviously has it has not changed We're we're still getting the same caseloads and the same numbers of referrals the there is obviously a backup Because courts have at four actual court cases Just because for months the court had been closed or there'd been modified schedules things like that But the courts are slowly opening up a little bit more. I know one of my detectives Just last week had a motion to suppress hearing that she appeared in person in the courthouse for well, these these these cases are In my experience As both a judge and a public defender these cases are often very difficult And I I gather that some of these organizations that refer people to you like Like the Vermont network and voices against violence and these people They help the victims get things like relief from abuse orders. Is that right? everything from Relief of abuse orders potentially a new place to stay residential in case That the current there someone's current residence is not safe For whatever reason Another one is hope works Is is another agency that works very closely that we work closely with Um But yes, uh, the the main goal of koozie is to help the victims help the victims um So do you work with the children's advocacy center? We do we actually share We share space in here in burlington. So we work very closely with them And what is their mission? Their mission is similar. Um, that they're civilian. It's not law enforcement But based off of the national children's advocacy center out of huntsville Huntsville alabama their main goal is to help with Provide services counseling resolution for children of crime And it can run the gamut. We specifically being that it's with the koozie office That we get mostly children victims of sexual abuse and obviously physical abuse So their main goal is to help those children and their families Make it through this process. Like you said, the core process can be pretty daunting at times Well, particularly with these delays. I think these delays are just uh, I guess in some sense, it's unavoidable considering the uh, What I call the plague But it's it's it must be so difficult for people to spend months waiting for some kind of resolution I think they need support from organizations like the ones you've mentioned, you know, hope works and From on network. These people are very very important to this process It seems to me um What does koozie do to promote public awareness of your mission? Do you reach out to organizations? Do you tell people who have complaints about this kind of conduct to contact you? I'm sorry. I think um, I don't know if it's my internet cut out a little bit Can you just rephrase that? Oh, I'm sorry. Well, maybe I stumbled I'm just asking what what what do you do to promote public awareness of your mission? Do you do you reach out to Voices or network or hope works and tell them to send these people to you? Well, absolutely. Uh, that's they they're being the the advantage in this area in chitlin county is We're a relatively small community So Knowing all these agencies are familiar with what koozie is what we do and the children's advocacy center Even to the point of once a month we have what's called a multiple multidisciplinary team meeting where all the agencies get together To discuss issues that pertain to this type of crime And where each agency can be of assistance And you do you talk about individual cases and how they can be handled? Generally, we will pick one case. Obviously we keep names And For for confidentiality reasons, but yes, we will discuss Specific not specifics, but generalities of a case that is either being investigated was investigated There wasn't a rest made and then kind of from start to finish What can every agency do to help this victim as well as their families? And uh, what is the sexual assault response team? So are you talking about the hospital or for uh, law enforcement more enforcement, please? Well, we can do both but we'll start with law enforcement. Well, it's it's just that that uh, being that's uh Sexual assault does not follow a specific timeline. Um, and our agency isn't Where we're only eight eight law enforcement. So we rely heavily on Other agencies other law enforcement agencies as first responders Right while koozie is a technically a 24 hour seven day a week agency Um, it's uh, detectives aren't working 24 hours seven days a week So the response team is uh, there are individual officers At each station who are trained as sexual assault first responders So if someone were to report a sexual assault ideally To where to their local agency That ideally one of these trained officers will respond to deal with the initial interview to secure any crime scenes Any evidence that might be uh, fleeting or exigent? And then they would contact koozie There's always a koozie detective on call 24 hours seven days a week For consult and any sort of emergency or exigent situation koozie will respond To the scene Depending on Yes And what you know, I've heard a lot of commentary recently about the officers carrying uh cameras carrying, you know They can take pictures at the scene But I thought of you when I heard this I thought there the koozie people go out and take pictures of battered victims Does that ever happen? We do uh, it's it's a good evidentiary Uh information for the case. Um, as as i'm sure you've seen when you were sitting on the bench Um, especially when it comes to bruises. It's uh, they they do change over time But you want to get you want to basically as a good criminal investigation You want to document What the scene looks what what the scene is and it's our job As sort of reactionary is to sort of rebuild that scene So we can establish that there was probable cause that a crime has been committed is was or will be committed So pictures are are huge. Obviously They have to remain confidential Just because of the nature, especially when we're dealing with children and those we're very cautious of the types of pictures that that are taken and presented My experience at times when the pictures taken two or three days later are even more indicative than the ones taken at the moment of the assault Absolutely, and that's both in any sort of assault Case the initial photos are important, but there's always follow-up Three days four days a week later because the bruises will change dramatically And even become almost it's hard to think this but even become worse as as the healing process Or like I said, it's the healing process or it's still in the abuse Or the the damaging process But by the time police arrive I know in my experience. I've I've had a few cases where people have come back to me long after the the event Frankly to thank me for whatever I did in regard to the case And to tell me that they're no longer being assaulted and that there's been a very good effect Do you ever get that kind of feedback? We do. Um, obviously it's The main goal of this is for the protection and the prevention of Of sexual violence law enforcement in general for the protection and prevention of crime and abuse the obviously domestic abuse sexual abuse is is a vicious cycle Through generations and somewhere in there there needs to be that breaking of that cycle. Hopefully In in some of our cases, I can't say it's a hundred percent unfortunately But hopefully with law enforcement and specifically koozie that cycle is broken of sexual violence and uh, people can resolve and Hopefully live a pretty pretty Normal life with normal being As best as you can define that So by cycle, you mean that these victims are repeatedly assaulted in in some circumstances. Yes that just due to The nature of of their environments their prior histories prior Sexual victimization It's tough to to break that cycle without help But the same victim can be repeatedly assaulted. Yes over time. This is because it's a pattern of conduct correct So we try to break that victimization cycle And you try to break it by by prosecuting offenders By prosecuting. Um, but also like I said from a from a law enforcement standpoint standpoint, it's the investigation Of the crime and then in conjunction with the state's attorney's office and We the state's attorney's office has one dedicated deputy states attorney That we she she only handles koozie investigations in cases and arraignments So that's she's part of this our um, d d d d t team. That's a medical multiple disciplinary team. Yes She's come over that one a lot of times MDT So she's a part of that as well and like as I said some of these cases Go to trial some don't just dependent upon the the circumstances but ultimately If it's the right decision not to go to trial, but it might To not necessarily go to trial, but it's the right decision for the victim and the victim can resolve and and uh, and be See some closure, uh, even without necessarily going court I once had a case before me in which was called to trial And the victim couldn't talk Could not speak So the attorney suggested that they would do a deferred sentence There'd be an admission and then we'd be we wouldn't I couldn't wouldn't punish the guy. He would be Put on notice that he can't do this kind of thing Right and lo and behold three months later. He did a very serious rape and um This this was a case in which the victim You took the stand and wept wept and wept but Managed to go through the whole thing and describe it all and there was a conviction and That was a good result. You know, it was a good result These the thing that is always I find troubling is that Every one of these cases as you describe it is unique to its facts You know There could a judge is supposed to consider the four factors from the common law and Up to eight other factors from statutes in doing the sentence And each case is is is is difficult and it's a very complicated job both for investigators prosecutors defense counsel and the judge these are very difficult things But I I thank you for what you're doing. I think this is so important it really can You can save people's lives. You can make a big difference to them Not just the adult victims, but the children my goodness to think that these things happen It's it's really very sobering Had do you find that some of the people you work with need their own kind of counseling because it's so troublesome There is definitely vicarious trauma in in all law enforcement, particularly when dealing with cases such as this nature that The whole purpose of the unit was started Because these cases do involve they're they're very sensitive. They're very complex They they require a little Little extra attention a little extra that that maybe wouldn't otherwise be available in a larger department Where you just sort of get in the queue. So as far as the investigators are concerned Absolutely mental health with Investigators is a huge Part of of any of this job to make sure that the investigators are able to do their work That's your responsibility the health of these people and the cac you mentioned the cac is also very pivotal in that They they provide some funding for mental for Investigator mental health awareness and that can be anything from Just yeah, if it gets to that point setting up some counseling even some money to To to spend on a gym membership because gym memberships are just it's while it might not solve the problem But it definitely helps alleviate some of the stressors stressors Get on that treadmill Oh, yeah, so so yes and answer your question the this type of work 24 7 Constantly and even to the certain extent. I'm very concerned and keep keep an eye on my detectives To make sure that they are not losing sight of of their job and that That that they don't Get get themselves into like I said some vicarious trauma, which would be very difficult to to get out of That's very sobering very sobering Well, do you need any additional resources? Is there anything else you need that would help you do the job better? Um, I think Just awareness is is the most is the most important that people The like I said these types of crimes typically Have gone unnoticed. They've gone Um, sort of I want to say ignored but They're tricky, especially when it comes to sexual relationships That just because someone's in a sexual relationship doesn't necessarily mean that they're not victims So I think the biggest issue is awareness that there is sexual violence in our community It is prevalent unfortunately And that it's it's okay To tell somebody that would be the one you mean there's a lot of it going on I I think so uh in in any crime statistics The the actual crime number is going to be less than than reality Oh, I think that particularly true in these cases Absolutely because a lot of people don't report that they're victims or they don't know people haven't reported for years I know those cases Being that the statute of limitations when it comes to these types of crimes are are fairly broad There are some sexual assaults depending on ages and things like that, but certainly within the Within the last 20 years the statute of limitations for these crimes have been wider widened Quite quite this is sexual abuse of a child. What's the statute of limitations in that? There is nothing Oh I think depending well, I should let me rephrase that I want to I think it goes back to like 1980 the crime like back in the 80s. So certainly someone who is an adult A child in the 80s Would certainly qualify to make a report and an investigation will be done. I can't I can't foresee the outcome, but certainly there is The opportunity to for a five year old 10 year old 20 year olds assault to be investigated Well, particularly, you know, I can just imagine a 12 year old girl who wouldn't want to talk about this It could be something that would be a A wound that would carry through our whole life for whole life. Yes without without dealing with it without In some sort of resolution And that's what he talked about some some a lot of that re victimization as well Not understanding What happened to them as a 12 year olds Could put them potentially in a in a higher risk for to be victimized again This is such difficult work. I really I can't thank you enough. This is really something to to brood over I'm just hoping that By doing this by doing this interview by putting this out on the on the television That people will be who are in this problem as victims will reach out to try to get health From kusi or from Anyone whether the law enforcement the hospital We we talk to students in in schools all the time and say it it doesn't find someone you can trust A trusted adult if as far as when it comes to kids find someone you can trust because holding it in Never helps keeping it a secret secrets are debilitating So if if someone is the victim of a crime, it's important that they Are able to feel comfortable to reach out to someone we had to be at a teacher or coach Whomever that that's probably the most important and at least there's an awareness of it and an acknowledgement that This person had is a victim Wow Well, is uh, is there anything else you'd like to answer? Um, no, just like I said, it's uh, people just need to be aware. Uh, keep your eyes open Um, no know your friends know your families You they people know you know your friends and family the best if you think maybe something's wrong Chances are something probably is and don't be afraid to ask And if they get a response, then they should try to help Get support for the person as best as they can whatever support that might be Uh, to reach out to local law enforcement to reach out to counseling Hopeworks, uh, vermont internet or not internet vermont network Yeah well I didn't want to miss a chance to ask you about Um The direction of this is a thing are things going even in this business for a while Is is there any Sense that things are getting better or are people more likely to report now than they did in the past? I think generally speaking absolutely. Um, that's That awareness right now is is the biggest where I should say lack of awareness was the biggest obstacle facing people 10 20 30 40 years ago now Sexual violence is not something that is is is kept in the basement or or hidden anymore People are aware that it does happen And more people are willing to come forward and make it make make make it aware to to for people And there are agencies now Like the vermont network against sexual and domestic violence Cousy Hopeworks, uh, the cac that are out there Their whole purpose is to make sure that there's someone there to listen The cac is the children's advocacy center children's advocacy center. Yes, we all speak in uh We all speak in initials now. Let's part of the part of modern law enforcement work Well, Tom, I want to thank you very much. I I often tell people that the interviews I do are From 30 minutes to an hour and 30 minutes is much better In fact, the only person who overwent more for more than an hour was a judge I couldn't shut her up We went on and on and on But thank you again And uh, if you ever want to come back and talk about something you let me know We'll do thank you put you back on the judge bench. Oh, I appreciate it. I appreciate that. Thank you, Tom Thank you very much for your time. Okay. Thank you judge