 I'm sorry, this operation is in case anything happens to that, we can provide a They're going to give us a transcript Listen, you and all please give her my heartfelt thanks We'll see if you have any questions Some of the other and the other microphones there with the U.S. News and World Report I've just been telling them Dave Gergen now, if there are any really difficult questions, I'll let him answer them In my 20 minutes I thought I'd try to go back to certain fundamentals We were told in journalism school that one of the toughest questions to ask is why So I'm going to ask you a few why questions And if I may start on an old issue of taxation In the light of a $2.3 trillion debt and these recurring horrendous debt, why do you insist on no tax increase? Well, because the record shows, Jack, that all the tax increases ever done with regard to the Congress Is enabling them to keep on spending and spend additionally It's never used in any effort to reduce the debt We have been running a debt with only a couple of annual exceptions Running a deficit for almost 60 years And from all but about four of those years the Democrats have controlled both houses of the legislature Well, with the exception of the six here where I had one house and they had another And even if you go back to Kennedy, this tax program, a tax cut program Was very similar to the one that we instituted when we first came in here as part of our economic recovery plan Why did your tax cut program result in all of these deficits? It didn't. It is the spending I can give you a figure on that before I got here, what was going on and what was built It's structural You remember long about in the middle 60s, a man named Lyndon Johnson was organizing his war on poverty Well, from 1965 to 1980, in those 15 years the budget went up to just about five times what it had been in 1960 The deficit went up to 38 times what it had been in 1960 It is structural. It is built in I knew when I came here there was no way that you could balance the budget in one year But we had set out with the idea of doing it If they had given me the budget I asked for in 1982 The cumulative deficits between 82 and 86 would have been $207 billion less than they turned out to be The Kennedy when he was fighting for his tax cut, he was very eloquent to the end that Taxes that this cut in taxes was actually going to result in more revenue and it did This was also true in the tax cuts back in the roaring 20s They resulted in higher revenues and our tax cuts have resulted in more revenues at the lower rates than when the rates were high I believe that the biggest factor and now that we're in our 58th month of economic recovery That the biggest factor in all of that was our reduction of rates It offers an incentive I was a classic example Jack back in the picture business when they were giving us all that if money And I was freelancing and I was also a couple of pictures put me in the 90% bracket Well you know they could offer me going with the wind and there wasn't any way that I was going to work for 10 cents But why in light of what you say about the structural built-in effects Why then are you supporting a new entitlement program for catastrophic health insurance Well for one thing it is not the program that the Congress now is talking about They're talking about a program I could not accept This one is one that imposes an unnecessary tax on people Can you afford to pay it our elderly citizens We think that the program that we proposed First of all the catastrophic illness thing is one with what has happened today And prices and all that can literally wipe out a family We had a plan in California that involved the private insurance sector and they were willing And we couldn't get it passed But when I was governor we had a plan that would have ensured everybody against catastrophic illness And the total cost was only about $35 an individual Of course sometime ago Yes but the thing is where we didn't get any attention for it or paid to it I know was the fact that there were only about 10,000 such cases a year in California out of 20 odd million people Well wouldn't these plans whether it's Dr. Bowen's plan or the Senate proposal Wouldn't they positively invite enlargement expansion as the years go by Do we get to a national health insurance Well that was what we thought we were ensuring against That I know that the other possibility is there even now Because there are some people in the Congress who have never given up the goal of socialized medicine We could identify a few of them Yes we could Switch to something else Why have you picked so controversial a nominee for the Supreme Court as Bob Bork Well I don't think he should be controversial His record first of all the people who supported him for the next highest court in the land Circuit Court of Appeals here in Washington I would refer you to Biden's statement when he endorsed him for that position And went out of his way to castigate anyone who would suggest that they should vote against him Because of his political philosophy I don't know whether Mr. Biden remembers saying that or not but I do Do you have any idea why these members of the American Bar Association panel voted in effect against him Well it doesn't surprise me the difference of opinion in the bar association there But what does surprise me Jack is the way so much of the media is reporting those four individuals Is somehow kind of way out After all there were eleven on the other side One that took the middle position of no objection Which is their custom But then ten who gave them the highest recommendation that the bar association can give What eleven to four I think that's a pretty good score But you have not heard the reasons why these four Changed from the position that the bar took five years ago I can't say that I have I assume that it's the same thing that making other individuals sound off But look he has never in over a hundred cases that he has forwarded That he's made decisions on that were then forwarded to the Supreme Court He has never been reversed by the Supreme Court I wasn't sure that there were a hundred that went up I thought there were fewer than that but he had never been reversed No I was told that it reached a hundred or maybe a hundred plus What do you anticipate will happen to the confirmation Well I'm optimistic that we're going to get it I just can't believe that when you know I met in California with seventeen individuals Who were the heads of every law enforcement national group in the United States And unanimous they are supporting and they have come together Like the head of the police association and all of these things District attorneys and so forth They have all joined together in a single force to support the book nomination Let me leap to another subject here, foreign affairs now Why do you persist in supporting the contra cause in Nicaragua Which is an effort to overthrow a duly established government Well first Jack I have to challenge that it isn't a duly established government That the entire chronology of this has taken up The revolution against Samosa brought together diverse groups And many just individuals It is true the Sandinistas were probably the foremost organization Existing organization before the revolution They had been in a communist organization for many years When the at a certain point of the revolution when I'm going on for quite some time They the revolutionary leadership asked the organization of American states To intervene and see if they couldn't persuade Samosa to step down in order to stop the killing The organization of American states asked what are your revolutionary goals Whether they were the goals we'd all support They were the goals of a pluralistic society of free press, free speech Freedom of religion, labor unions, all of these things And this was delivered to the organization The organization then asked Samosa and Samosa said if it will stop the killing Yes and stepped down Then the Sandinistas taking advantage of their having an organization They went to work and started eliminating the other revolutionary leaders Their former partners Just disappeared And some exiled and a number of them are now a part of what are the contras And then, yes, they staged an election But if you look back at that election How any other candidates were denied access to the news media Radio or anything of that kind There is no question that it was a frame up And it ended up with a total as we know now It is a communist government They themselves that their inauguration announced that their revolution knew no borders And of course we saw Cuba step in We have seen the Soviet Union The Soviet Union has supported them And given them billions of dollars in aid and support And we feel that in view of this present peace program that has been advanced There are such loopholes in it That the pressure that is needed to bring them to the democratization that their neighbors are now demanding Is provided by the countries The $270 million that Secretary Schulz talked about yesterday That comes right in the middle of these peace proceedings Will it interrupt them, interfere with them? No, because it is destined for the same thing simply to keep We want to cease fire We want the Nicaragua, the Sandinista government to recognize They've got to also sit down at a table with their own people Who are represented in the contras And this they've refused to do We have asked for that for a long time The idea of a negotiated settlement is not just new We've wanted that, but we've known also The only chance you have to get it Is to have that threat, that pressure of the people taking over Looking down the road a few months What do you foresee in this Nicaraguan situation? Will the pressure work? Well, if it doesn't work We've got to be in a position that we have not in another words destroyed the opposition And then the Sandinistas do what there's every evidence they might do And that is the Sandinistas take advantage of those loopholes Make a pretense of democracy But look at the restrictions they themselves have put A pointing of a commission to sort of oversee the democratic processes Yes, they have Cardinal Obando there But all of this is going to be taking place in October And according to the schedule, the Cardinal is going to be in the Vatican And the Sandinista government has named his alternate to replace him while he's gone The vice president of their own government Let me jump because this coming week will be the Constitution week I know that you are generally in favor of repealing the constitutional amendment That limits the president to two terms Are there other changes you would like to see in the Constitution? Yeah, a balanced budget amendment I know you, I was going to ask you why you keep resisting in that Well, because 80% of the people according to the polls want it Every place in the United States standing in front of as many as 40,000 people When I have mentioned that, I am interrupted by applause In many times of standing ovation No more states of petition for a constitutional convention on the idea Yeah, but 32 of them have already Some of those were a long time ago too, were they not? And the thing is, I think there are many of us who would rather go the congressional way Because once you open that door to a constitutional convention No one knows where it'll stop It's open then to everything that you want to propose But any amendments that came out of such a convention would have to go back to the states for ratification, would they not? Yes, but they would have to under that But they, also the same thing, they have that opportunity with the Congress passing this And it would be so much quicker and more efficient And they designated that one subject All right, I won't argue with you, I will argue with you, but not right now Balance budget amendment and the two term limitation What other constitutional changes have occurred to you? Oh, I don't know that there are some will, there are some things that I have And the presidential election process, for example, would you see any changes there? No, but I have social things that I am very definitely on the side that God should not have been expelled from the classroom Would you like a prayer amendment in the constitution? I think that what's being done is a violation of the separation of church and state Everyone cites that Congress should make no provisions about having a state religion But it also says that it should not interfere with the practice of religion And I think it is very easy for many years, there was prayer in classrooms And it wasn't denominational or anything It was in keeping with what's engraved in the stone above the Supreme Court building And other places that in God we trust and we are a nation under God Then there is the matter of this I would look at further and has to do with the abortion amendment These are the very things that even Franklin Delano Roosevelt in 1932 When I cast my first vote, which was for him, his campaign was to return to the states and local communities Authorities and autonomy that had been unjustly seized by the federal government We're a federation of sovereign states And I think there's been a continuous, over recent years, there's been a continuous drive to centralize more and more And take from the states authorities that were vested in them by the constitution So I would like to look at more of those But definitely I think the amendment with regard to abortion That was just as murder is, that was in the hands of the state The state jurisdiction Under the constitution only a native born American can run for president Would you like to see that provision taken out? No, I don't think so I think traditionally that... Eric Lentz who came in ought not to have a chance to become president Well, I don't know, maybe that could be more closely looked at Let's say with maybe with an age provision If you really look at it, I would have to give some second thought to What happens to someone who came here as a very small child And then all their lives from then on were in this country I think the provision, we know what some of those were based on back in our beginnings But I think the provision recognized that we're probably the only country in the world that is open to everyone from every corner of the world In an interview with Carl Rowan Justice Thurgood Marshall has some very unkind things to say about you About your record and racial justice Why do you suppose Justice Marshall expressed those views? I don't know, but I'll tell you, I'm surprised that a Supreme Court justice Who is supposed to look at all sides of an issue before he makes a decision Has obviously made no effort to look at me with regard to Racism or discrimination Jack, I was raised in a household in which the greatest evil was prejudice and discrimination It was back in a time when there was a great deal of religious prejudice in this country My father was a rough, tough Irishman and a Catholic My mother was a Protestant I'm afraid my father gave up going to church for Lent So if my brother and I were to get any religion, it was by way of our mother But this whole thing about prejudice, I was raised that way I have a record, not only all my life as a sports announcer I was one of the little handful of broadcasting major league baseball Over the years who editorialized that baseball should be opened to the other race And then as a governor of California I discovered that the civil service regulations in California Definitely discriminated against the minorities There was only a small percentage of them in government employment And they were only at the lower levels of almost menial labor But as president, haven't you taken certain actions or positions That have militated against the blacks such as your desire to get rid of the small business administration Which has helped a good many black entrepreneurs The Civil Rights Commission has withered away under your administration Would these be some of the things that Justice Marshall had in mind? Well, I don't think the Civil Rights Commission has withered away I think there's been a great change, we've got to recognize what's been done Small business administration wasn't based on that Because then I would refer you to our programs with regard to government contracts Defense contracts and all And how we have energetically, without the small business, gone out To make sure that they were involved in government And I would also point to the figures on the number of cases I think we top any other administration that's ever preceded us With regard to the cases that we have initiated For restoration of rights, financial problems, salary problems and so forth Where there has been discrimination And Jack, as I say And in California I changed all those regulations And before we left office we had a Multiplied with several times the percentage of minorities employed But also employed all the way up through government And taken those restrictions away It's been observed that you've appointed, nominated very few blacks For minorities to the federal bench I haven't, you know, the truth of the matter was The, I had to say there weren't any left When I got here to appoint And also I think you, I think your appointments reflect Political or ideology I should say And well that's behind your nomination of Judge Bork, is it not? Do you like his political ideology? No, I like the fact that I've taken politics and I did in California Out of the appointment of judges But I think a philosophy I guess is what I'm talking about Not politics, a philosophy of that a judge In the Supreme Court should interpret the law I know that's a cliche now and not make it I have been very critical of the court in recent years Which I have thought had taken over making the laws Was it fair to say that you hope that with Judge Bork On the Supreme Court some of these decisions would be reversed Significantly modified? I haven't even given a thought as to whether that's up to the court I would never suggest something of that kind to them But would you hope that Miranda would be modified for example The exclusionary rule would be Yes I would, I come from the state that gave birth To the famous diaper case, do you know what that was? Diaper case, I thought I knew every significant Supreme Court case Which you've got me on that one Well in California two drug enforcement officers Oh yeah, that was the Fourth Amendment case They had a warrant, they searched the house Evidence had been given to believe there was heroin there In that home and they found none and they were on their way out When suddenly the one of them turned back to the crib And there was the baby and he removed the diaper And there was the heroin and it was thrown out of court On the basis that the baby had not given its permission to be searched Unlawful search and seizure All right Marlon has the fidgets over there So I think my time is just about up The last time we talked two or three years ago You were pumping a little iron, are you still? I'm temporarily removed from that right now With the ranch, I kind of strained a tendon in one arm With our chainsawing and handling of huge logs and so forth And I went into the gym when we came back to try And found out that there was a twinge definitely So I'm going to have to wait a while I was just teasing Howard about putting on a few pounds How's your weight doing? It's holding about even The thing is though that I found from pushing the iron Out of the sudden the scale was going up Instead of going down And then I found out something You have to start going by measurements instead of weight Because muscle weighs four times as much as flab And I reached a point where pretty soon The increase in muscle, I added two inches around my chest Howard, did you add around your waist? That went down Very fortunate I know we're Let me just take one little thing I've got to tell you an incident that makes me so frustrated With things like what Thurgood Marshall said And this whole idea involving me I played college football beside the right guard I played beside a center that was black We became the closest friends And I had great pleasure I ended up at Morris University as an athletic director When I came here as president I had him and his wife at the White House for dinner And thank God because a few months later He died of a heart attack But in college, one trip We overnighted in my hometown On our way to the game the next day And I took the coach into the manager of the hotel In that little town of Dixon, Illinois And the hotel manager said to the coach I can take everybody except your two color boys And our coach said, well then we'll go someplace And he said, well he won't do you any good There isn't any other hotel in town We'll take him out But this is in northern Illinois What year was this? This is back in 1932 And no, in 1931 as a matter of fact I graduated in 32 And as we started out the lobby I was just madder than him And he said, we'll sleep in the bus And I said, Mac, you can't do that They'll know why And he said, well what are we going to do then? And I said, well he had very definitely told me That I could not go and sleep in my own home I would stay with the team Well that was all right with me I could see the reason for that But now I said to Mac Why don't we go out and you tell them That there isn't enough room for everybody here And we're going to have to break up And then when you put me and Berkey and Joe in a cab And we'll go home And this man, who could be as mad as he was Turning to me and looked at me and he says You really want to do that? And I, knowing my family, said yes I'm going to do that We arrived at the house I pushed the button on the bell Nelly, my mother came to the door And I said, now there isn't enough room In the hotel for all of us Can you put us up? Not even a quiver she said come in And so forth And I never knew that I had gotten away with it Until I came here And a press man That had interviewed Berkey And his capacity down there Told me that Berkey told him That he and the other one frigged That this was why we were sleeping in our home His name was Burke? Burkhart Burkhart And we came to Berkey And before we got out of school We elected him captain of the football team Good story Always so good to see you Good to see you I better get rid of this microphone And again, thank you very much for it I think Nancy may enjoy Pain on some weekends Well, we keep fighting I think Nancy may enjoy the book Oh, yes Thank you And raise life as a book And start with your grandmother And your father and so on And I don't get on with it That's the way it is