 Boom, what's up everyone? Welcome to Simulation. I'm your host Alan Saakyan. We are select co-fes the Congress on the future of engineering Software for a second annual partnership with them. We are now with Mark Warwaller. Hello Thanks for coming out of the show really appreciate it here. Yeah, it was so cool mark and I were just at dinner together at the water dinner and Of course as you guys know I asked a question to the table and I asked what do you guys think is the weirdest thing in the world and Then Mark was the first one that was like what was your exact answer? It was like something about conscious experience something like that. I Think it was you making some comment about what if you were just in nothing and saw life wouldn't that be weird and That generated the discussion of consciousness. Yeah, there was a there was a good There was a good conversation on at the table about about consciousness and about really broad Imagination and what it would be like to even not have a universe and be thinking from outside the universe It was very interesting and then we proceeded to continue talking about philosophy and the meaning of life Mark actually went back across the table and asked me what the meaning of life was and then I just said it's complicated Question and answer and then you said that it was to live and Then then there was another comment that it's about procreating and then there were just really good conversation ensued because we decided to shatter the Small talk at the table and dive into deeper conversations about life So then of course then I wanted to ask mark to come on to the show to teach us about his life And why he even thinks about reality and the way he does and you had some interesting stories of you know of your son as well and the way that You've traveled with your son and the reasons why that that you gained a broader perspective about culture and about humanity Due to that but tell us about who you are and about you know why you became who you are today That's a great question. I Wish I knew who I was. I think I have an idea But that's an idea so but I yeah, I think you're asking about the External exterior aspects of who I am One of your questions was how did I get into engineering and software so maybe we start there see that? Yeah I went to school, you know when I graduated high school You know, I didn't want to be a lawyer thought about being a doctor Went into engineering because at that time that was considered next to those a good profession and Wasn't sure what I wanted to be but I my dad said something when I was a teenager that really impacted me He I felt like he wasn't completely happy in his job, but he he made a comment that one of his Superiors at one time said that he would rather be pushing a vegetable cart and working for himself Than to be working for the quote-unquote man yeah, so So I had a desire for self-employment, you know when I was in a Got a master's degree in mechanical engineering went to university Florida to get a PhD was in the robotics department Did about three semesters there My son was born and I was kind of Became a little bit jaded towards the whole PhD sort of idea and It just didn't hold the luster for me that it had whenever I Invised in the glory of it as a 12 or 13 year old and had an opportunity with another guy To Do some contract work for General Electric and robotics offline programming robots Artificial vision stuff like that. This is back in the mid-80s and so We started a company And one thing led to next we had I wrote some software on the IBM PC 1986 to do robot simulation on a PC when we couldn't find any 3d software that had a Floating-point database, you know on a PC when at that time you had to get a Non IBM an IBM compatible computer to get 640k of memory IBM only shipped up to 512k of memory And saying we were doing simulations of you know multiple robots and things all on you know this Little computer that was pretty cool So when the robotics thing ran out, we took our software to say graph I remember Joel or coming around asking Did we have bullions yet? I said no, I'm working on it And he says well, I think you'll find that hard to do but we had it by the end of the year and I Eventually sold off that software Got contracts in Asia to develop Software on Unix it was meant to be a replacement for Kitea and other systems that were really expensive. This is late 1980s We did it so we decided to do it something that we didn't see at that time which was not only high-end surfacing but being able to Create solids with class A surfaces in a parametric history style environment With integrated can So this all began in the late 1980s preceding the early 1990s. We had a few large companies interested in buying this out Unfortunately in our development. It was joint development with an Asian company where we had 5050 ownership of the source code And they wouldn't cut loose with their 50% So then solid works came along solid edge came along We sort of lost our window on having done parametric modeling, you know belong before those guys Released it and Went in a lot of years of software development Sold off majority ownership in the company at one point and kind of a survival mode and Just you know winded our way through this industry always is sort of I think a background not as well-known player even though I feel like we had done some really nice things and Nine years ago were acquired by ZW soft at Chinese company that I was looking into Ducat by Chinese for Chinese and to own the IP. So we had 3d. We have our own kernel this equivalent to a pair of solid aces or C3 style thing and They've done really well with the software a lot of the You know the sales are being driven out of mainland China with large companies there, but they have You know over marketing and a lot of what we consider the emerging nations and Have a really good growth rate And so I've gotten into you know, so I've been in this industry almost 35 years now now. I'm getting to finally see Kind of a flowering or fruits of the laborers, which is really cool for me and seeing people you know making hay with the software and So what seemed like a long and arduous truck? But yeah, the reason I started was to be self-employed ironically You know, I've had majority shareholders like Samsung Corporation some large Japanese large Japanese company machine tool manufacturer But kind of felt like self-employment I was always in charge of you know my office and my people And it's still that way So You know, I guess to embarrass myself on the camera here As my wife and family well in friends will attest one of my first loves of my life is is any kind of board sport But first surfing and then secondarily snowboarding. I'm in Florida. So we don't get to do that much except for when we vacation So self-employment for me meant flexibility to surf In flexibility to see a good surf forecast for Central America and go down there and get it While they get it was good and then come back and work And if there is a driver for me I don't know. I didn't really pick cad cam. I sort of fell into it. I enjoy it Is I think it's really cool. Yeah, I think there's a lot of exciting things still to be done in the space And I still have a lot of ideas for it. But yeah in the beginning. I just kind of wanted to be a Beach bum and have a way to fund that lifestyle You know, there's there's so many Components to that the 35 years that you just unpacked a lot of people are feeling like their work in their PhD pursuit Is not translating to industry. It's only being read by a couple people Etc. And there is a strong desire to for people to want to see their work be Influence more people. So that is and also just the whole process of of Just poor incentives around science around getting PhDs and then being able to fill really powerful roles as entrepreneurs or in industry It's not really that clear or professorship is exactly what Those those paths are like and then like you were indicating there's a certain as you're an entrepreneur. There's a certain Timing is such an important thing and and of course distribution of product to the right people and Getting in the eyeballs getting the attention the right people and so when these sort of Waves come and to be able to ride the wave and make really cool advancements like you did and then see that Okay, well, is it being are we is there being a bite? Are we getting a Bite here from from someone to as interested in in acquiring us. Okay, maybe we didn't there But can you persevere? Can you go through the adversity in order to get to the next wave up where you can actually Get that acquisition or get the the next big deal that you need to really Ramp yourself up and through that's a very important thing is that that perseverance And it's also funny that of course that you with your mentality are you love sports sports surfing snowboarding So tell us more about that that that personality, you know The the mark behind the the work mark the one that you were just teaching us about a bit on the Sports the connecting to earth the philosophy side of things the way you raise your child So I have two children boy and a girl I have to and I have three grandchildren now And I have to say my family is The highlight the best thing I have going in life. What means the most to me? and But yeah, the mark behind the mark. I had the philosophy. I guess I grew up in a fairly strong religious tradition within my family And I think as I got older like everyone you try to dig a little deeper really examine your beliefs and what you believe most fundamentally so that got me into you know reading and pondering a lot of you know a lot of writings from Eastern religions and Yeah, there's so many books out there that have been written the Eurantia book and I mean there's just All kinds of incredible things that have been written, but they all seem to In their essence point back to some you know some basic, you know what we might call truths and at some point I got into more Formal meditation practices and things like that Interesting that that's Where we're on a somewhere vibe I'd be interested which meditation practices Well, you know there's a lot. Yeah, and I think you can I mean, I think formal meditation is really just trying to point us towards You know a certain way of Living yeah with greater awareness. Yes And and then it becomes you know a form of maybe walking meditation. Yeah, I feel like so I've Tried a few different formal meditation practices Probably the one I use most is Sitting meditation, you know with beginning with the mantra, but then you know ending with just You know just elevating yourself into that space and Because I feel like that's valuable The goal would be that you know my entire life would be in every action would be a meditative Expression of that state It's not yeah, and I don't know that will be in this lifetime but But there are things that I try to do each day to help me cultivate awareness It's always interesting to see how quickly you can fall out of that absolutely and kind of Become unconscious for a long periods of time. That's right. Why you're fully functioning Within society, but and you can tell a big difference between when you in the past have not practiced Meditation and how quickly potentially you could get triggered or upset by things or not even be in Control like you said in a very unconscious way, but then when you do practice meditation You can really quickly end up seeing the benefits stacked over time where where you will feel more in control That you feel more conscious you feel more heart-centered you feel more aware you feel more interconnected and And then you're not catching yourself reacting potentially negatively carrying a positive weight or you're able to see it coming You can see that I've started to arise within you and you're able to identify it and maybe kind of back away And that's right kind of get behind it a little bit. That's right. So I would have to say I mean I Am typically fairly private about this which is why this is an unusual situation for me You got me though. Why we got but But it's kind of I see that as sort of My family is first But for me to be a good father and a husband and good grandfather What I do with myself internally to me is the most important thing I can do for my family and for society Yeah, and I feel like it would manifest through everything that I do and so for me the prime directive is To cultivate that connection with what you know, some people call divine nature with God with the spirit of God with Consciousness pure intelligence lighter truth or whatever you want to call it. They're all different ways of expressing this thing that Once we experience that it becomes, you know, it becomes reality the essence of reality and We were having a conversation at the table about empirical versus, you know, mystical type beliefs, but I feel like that You know, there's a lot of people out there and you see it in their behavior and their writings that have experienced a Truth that's not able to be easily described with words But then that becomes very meaningful and something that is as real as You know, what we would normally talk about as a reality Yeah, and so for me trying to tap into that and connect to that You know more than one second a day or a few minutes a week. That's really what is sort of what I Is my goal in this life and to try to let that bleed out into what I do When you find that The best way that you can be a great member to your family and your community and society is by being your best self and then the techniques and practices of becoming that best self Including this meditation practice like you said the couple seconds or couple minutes a week that you can Connect to what feels like all that is or that is some sort of divine communion That is some potentially past the 3d reality that is again mystical versus the empiricist Which we were having a very interesting discussion about the scientists Have to give a little bit of breathing space for some of the mysticism in order for us to really poke it with the scientific probe and understand it and Some of the really far-out mysticism can do a better job at making sure we come back to science and test and reproduce and stuff that as you explained that it also resonates in me really deeply what You how you became who you are because of those principles that you've lived your life with and that Has that makes all the difference in the lifetime when you carry that wake with you with your family your community and society Yeah So all right on a on another philosophical level what Have you felt then with that couple seconds that couple minutes That you commune maybe it's a little better than that but yeah, sometimes it's better than that. Absolutely. Yeah But I think the goals to try to incorporate that into everyday living so that Your life becomes your practice Like a meditative practice or whatever you want to call it. Yeah, yeah a conscious living. Yeah So but I interrupted you. What was the question? Yeah, that is that is you're leading right into what what what I did ask you're giving the answer to right now I've I'm very much agree and I'm and I'm trying to in many ways with what we're doing with the show we're really trying to help Not only take the edge of Specific fields one of them being meditation mysticism spirituality and bringing that edge down to the base camp Where every child is born? How can they follow a superhighway out to the Spirituality of meditation edge just like they can follow a superhighway out to the robotics or the biotech Well, that is I mean I I've thought a lot. I thought what if I if I had I don't like to say I know a lot, but the little that I Feel like I know Which you know Another year or two goes by and you realize there's well, you know, there's infinite depth to knowing but what if I had known that as a young parent and Could there have been a way that I could teach that to my children And what advantage would that be to them? But a really rewarding thing for me is to see my daughters My daughter and daughter-in-law exploring some of those things that on their own that they because people you you kind of have you Can't really be forced and to be an interested And things like you know meditation or understanding yourself better And people just seem to take their path to get there And it often doesn't seem like it's going to be rushed but at the same time But but I feel like they're now Incorporating some of that, you know mindfulness principles into raising their children That's right And there are books out there that teach that to parents Yeah, and I see that and I even whole schools that teach that yeah, yeah, yeah, and it's great It's really he has a grandparent is really Gratifying to see that my grandchildren are Spiritually actualized on younger ages having that advantage. I mean I mean, I still practice, you know involved in formal religion the you know tradition of my father's so to speak You know my family is my grandchildren are and I feel like it's a great thing those external practices Are anchoring I think they help keep people in an ethical moral path until maybe they discover What lies beneath that? And I have hope for that to continue in my family as a family tradition I don't have any angst over anyone that were departing that track, but at the end of the day you You really want to see your you know the evolution of family and society towards You know that deeper Maybe understanding Again, I don't want to sound like I've got all the answers, but I feel like There I mean, I definitely believe That that quest and ourselves are our deeper selves is what yeah helps stabilize our external lives and Stabilize our society and yeah You know can elevate us to that you know that higher world that we aspire to Yeah, so there's there's Simultaneously is a quest that we're running within ourselves to find out who we are and to be our best selves and then we're simultaneously running a quest for the society and civilization to be the best it can be and there seem to be at times lots of Seeds the minds that are born into the world that lack the basic nutrients that the seed needs in order to creatively flourish Sometimes it's a lack of basic nutrition Sometimes it's a lack of love and compassion from parents that are not present with the child There's all different types of traumas that can impact that seed and we've had too many Generations at times of seeds experiencing trauma and that's in many ways at times why we see such Malevolence occur sometimes on on the planet why we have sometimes such ignorance because we had these oops moments with the development of these seeds and so What are your thoughts about that mentality of the seed Flourishing in the world and getting the basic nutrients it needs in order to go on that quest for the self actualization and the societal actualization so I don't you know I could think of some sort of pat responses about it I feel like you know for starters in our world. I mean, I agree with what you're saying a hundred percent, but I feel like You know, we all start out when we're young. We're born innocent and then we sort of have a fall from grace as we Begin we begin to you know be attractive by The sensory delights of the world and that begins to consume our attention we develop a sense of Story about ourselves our ego And I think that's a natural thing that happens and it's necessary in order for us to To be individuals and have the experience of individual interacting with individual even though I would contend that we're all one the foundation of things and So I think in Solving world issues with children. I don't think you can necessarily take people directly to things that a Lot of people would consider more esoteric even though they feel natural to us So I think the beginning does just strengthening families Having societies and cultures and governments Respect the family and trying to Generate a societal support And you look at it negative as you want But it's a societal expectation of people that have children being good parents fulfilling parental responsibility towards us children even if it means sacrificing their own Kind of egoic wants and needs Yeah, I think there needs to be almost like a societal peer pressure on people to step up You know if they have children then set aside your Ego your ego or other things that you think you'd rather be doing and you know Teach your your children. I think if yeah, even doing that is an act of Consciousness or self-discipline one guy said that spirituality is consciousness of victory over self to be a disciplined parent you need you have to Consciously choose to make sacrifices And if your children are crying and it's making a young mother crazy They have to transcend that frustration and anger that arises it requires an active transcendence to get into that place And now in fact, I feel like parenting is probably One of the ultimate, you know Battlefields or schoolyards or whatever you want to call it to find your higher self because you have to transcend more opposition Then you have opposition that has to be Transcendent in order to do your job, but I think the starting point is teaching children morality and ethics That gives them the foundation I feel like the roots of a tree that hold it in place. Yes when they have that foundation and basic morality and ethics Then they can raise their branches into the You know the What people call mystical realms? I don't look at it exactly that way But they are then anchored in a place where they're more likely to discover some of those Ideas of consciousness and awareness and and I discover more That they're true spiritual nature or they're more, you know, eternal nature But I think that in the beginning maybe it just starts out like you know teaching your children to be nice to each other Yeah, kind of thing. Yeah, so let's let's do a couple things off of that first thing was that there's a There it's true that one of the ways we can level up the most in life is by having a child because we quickly Understand how to be more selfless. We quickly understand how to transcend our own ego and how to Really focus on like you said, there are these Interesting forces that the child might be relentlessly crying or trying to get what it wants when it's out and about and that It's just in a sense It's your role to to stay calm and to stay calm and to stay present and to engage with the child that they're creative potential at their at their at their at their exact Cognitive capabilities and and that's a whole challenge as you as a 25 35 45 year old How do you engage with? three six nine twelve year old at their cognitive capabilities to help them understand the world that they're in this is a massive Undertaking and in order to do it. Well one has to like you said go through these these transcendent Experiences with the with parenting and I completely agree. It's the only reason why humans got to where we did it one of the only reasons because we ended up procreating The whole lineage of people that ended up bringing you into the world and me and all the people watching right now The other thing that you mentioned was this foundation, you know if the seed That is born into the world gets morality and ethics Really strongly understood and these roots come in like you said it gives them the propensity to be able to reach up Towards their self-actualization. What would you say are those fundamental roots of morality and ethics? well, I don't know I mean you could sum it all up and as You're repeating back to me what I said. I thought well really what children is love And and true love and true love will correct children when they you know need correction But it does it in a in a kind of useful way, you know, not a violent sort of way and not an angry way And so I guess In a children are brought up in a loving environment I think they're more likely to learn patterns of love from the example that their parents and grandparents and family said So, you know when you think about ethics and morality you can think about ten commandments There are a lot of you know every religion has their basic You know things about you know not stealing and you know being honest and You know right speech right conduct, which usually means some form of Not violating the agency of other people I'm not harming Other people or a harming life intentionally So those are some of the basics. I guess they come to mind, but again, I just thought well You know it all you can pull us down to being loving and kind creating that environment so that's what your children learn by absorption or by observation or by just seeping into the Essence who they are I I did think those I made the comment about parenting. There's a lot of people that Don't have the opportunity to have children or don't choose that path and I wouldn't want that comment to be at all You know offensive to them. That's why we said one of the most meaningful. Yeah, but um, yeah and I think of people in my life that We're not my biological parents, but that parented me And I and as I expanded on that thought or it would expand on I feel like in business We have so many roles in life I'm a business manager can nurture his employees. You can be a manager that tries to get performance, but fear and that To a degree can produce But I feel like it's a higher road to elicit performance through You know loving compassionate behavior just by showing genuine respect and Kindness to your employees and I feel like they'll perform and even a higher level under that Sort of atmosphere than one to fear The shout out to the current company that I work with in China. I feel like they're top management In particular, they see Just thinking about these kind of things too and it reflects in the way that he behaves and what his values are Yeah, and how he manages the company and so it's been a real pleasure for me to work with someone that you know this Thinking that way and trying to translate that into action Yeah, especially through the business world and through industry that that type of those Moralities and ethics that could be baked into the roots being being brought forth into business And into culture into society that has a tremendous Butterfly effect onto other other people as well. Like you said, are we leading with love and compassion? Are we leading with fear? So Yeah, I also agree with what you were talking about regarding the the roots that are that are baked in the morals and ethics That are baked in these are in many ways These are these sort of when we think about things as code. It really helps us Understand that what would be the first lines of code that you would want? Every child to be born with an every parent to adapt today every human to adapt today. Well, what if nobody would kill each other? well Then there would be no malevolence then we may not need any war then we could save trillions of dollars every single year and Invest that into education. There's a lot of Potential that can be explored by these Thinking about things as code as morals and ethics and what we would like to embed into the next generations That are birthed into our world you have children and grandchildren You you get to see this firsthand as you know You passing along the the knowledge the collective knowledge and they get to build up with that into new knowledge bases And it's a it's a very beautiful thing All right, Mark, let's ask you about But we were talking about at the table I want to you know bring up now In in many ways there is a there's almost a a culture of Small talk that is In in many ways just plaguing our world that we're we're lost in mundane Conversation we're scared or fearful to to sit down and have deeper conversations You might make a mistake and then we'll feel judged or whatever it may be But this is like when you go and shoot your first basketball, you don't make it right away It takes a long time to become a good player at whatever you do so therefore similarly with asking good questions It's it's about working this muscle and getting really good at asking questions and being fearless about it And then over time realizing that what you catalyze when you ask a good question is not only are you Learning from what the person responds to you're getting them to think in an interesting way about a question They may not have thought about before then they may go talk to someone else about that question And then people are thinking bigger about humanity about society about themselves about our purpose So I want you to you know speak to us about the importance of shattering through that so surface level Conversations to the bigger questions. I think you've addressed it pretty well Yeah, I don't know that I have much to add to that. I do agree that sometimes when I I Mean I enjoy talking about some of the things we've talked about because they're meaningful to me But I find that I generally hold back because of kind of the Blanker slightly Quiz not more than quiz go looks that you get in it or the discomfort You know that it seems to cause so it's nice to run into someone like you that enjoys talking about this as much as I do We do get along quite well on that front. I want to I want to see what you think about this. Well when potentially there is a little bit of Discomfort that one the other person may experience when when you prompt them with with the thought-provoking question At times it almost feels like that is then a Is it actually okay to to to ask something that may discomfort someone So I think the way you pulled it off the table is good I mean So I have a couple thoughts that come to mind and hopefully they'll they won't they'll make sense Somebody somebody you know philosopher writer that was semi-famous I guess said paraphrase something in fact that You know he was defining my right speaking or truth and he says went in speaking He says when you speak To speak truly is not just to speak factually because gossip is factual. Yeah, we inherently sense that it's not Necessarily the right speaking But that it's you know factual but also useful and kind So sometimes I feel like in conversations with people if it's making them uncomfortable Maybe I'm not being kind towards them to try to draw them into something that that I enjoy But it's causing discomfort for them. Yeah, but on the other hand I And there's an idea don't throw your pearl in front of swines. Sometimes things that you hold near and dear If you put it out there and you get a real You know Rough reaction to it or it's sort of just It it it's there's a lowering of energy is sort of or they just they don't have a sense of reverence or respect to what you consider It can just sort of be a downer experience and maybe just seems counterproductive But on the other hand I as I say that I feel like we can't back down there's some responsibility that we have to speak Where there's some Buddhist and masters that says we must speak, you know, even though words never adequately describe Truth that we must that we have to try so we must speak But I feel like you know what you did at the table you were in a way It was a charitable act to the rest of the table because things had gotten quiet, you know So you helped us have some conversation Help live in things up So it wasn't a selfish Thing you were doing and even though maybe it created a little discomfort, I think if You know if you saw that someone's really being put off by it It's not like you're you know, not you're gonna just drive it home. Absolutely not Yeah, this isn't that emotional intelligence component to it Yeah, is that you can sense the difference between someone that becomes very Discomfort and then when you feel that about them then you push bet then you or you lay off And but then when someone like you who is like, okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna reply I like this I'm like this conversation and then well the thing is I found that sometimes whenever I'll drop hints about things that I'm interested in and you can you know if I sense that someone's responsive sometimes I find like you that there are people out there that You know want to discuss those type of issues Yes and seem to feel uplifted by the opportunity And and then it becomes a two-way sort of you know good vibe and good experience And then there were like four others at the table that became very Interested and engaged and they also started giving their their thoughts about it Yeah, and that was that was also very cool to to have catalyzed that and yeah generated some community and yes Yes, and some laughter and some interesting states of awareness These are the things that can happen from these from these big bigger questions and and and being willing to step into that into that curiosity and Big questions are great and Another thought for you question is Through this practice That you've had through life through racing family as well as through your meditation What has been your sort of this this as you as you aim to to To commune and to to transcend what what what is this that that you are engaged with? What do you what do you what is what is past that that three the 3d reality? well I don't want to get myself in trouble. I think it's like you know feeling the different parts of the elephant Oh, you know you can describe one thing and someone feels like you kind of miss the boat because they saw another aspect of That reality so But I just you know, I feel like we describe it in various ways, you know god consciousness light and truth I feel like there is an essence from which everything arises I tend to think of it as light truth and intelligence The spirit of god, but I believe, you know, there's religions that Seem to get a little unsettled towards the idea of you know god in a form Any kind of form because they feel like he's too big to be able to manifest in form And there's others that Feel like that's the main way they see him is a benevolent being Personage, you know like us human And I Believe in all of the above I feel like, you know, there's levels of creation outside of this world that we're engaged with and I feel like there are People that we call prophets and teachers that are able to See outside that world. I feel like We're each able to have direct experience of that if we look for it and And so I think there, you know, there's beings that are probably Higher than us in the sense of their attainment of benevolence and love that that You know Are participating the drama of this particular world and life and Some people worship those, you know, celestial beings and some people worship that Essence from which they arose that pure light and truth, which is their very essence And I don't really have a beef with any of it I think it's just different viewpoints And or seeing different slices of the Of what's out there, but I but I yeah, I believe the fundamental essence of everything is Pure intelligence or consciousness. Yeah. Yeah, what we call energy is patterns of like consciousness vibrating in different patterns and formations and It's kind of interesting a lot of the quantum physics, you know, there's some of the physicists that Aren't afraid of You know going against the tradition, you know the The idea of science is pure and empiricalism even though that's sort of a subjective type term too, but You know that The end their experimentation to realize that the very act of design and experience We tend to see what we set out to measure if we can design the apparatus we could see what we're trying to measure See some new particle. We designed the apparatus to measure it that very act of creation Generally allows them to see So it's the idea that subject an object or one And those are mystical mystical concepts But a lot of them are realizing that as they try to describe the results of experiments are where You know the particle being split through the two slits You know that they can change Something after the quote-unquote particle or wavelet has passed through the slits And it'll Jump to the other slit it'll hit the as if it came through the other slip Slit so there's you know They're seeing time kind of dissolve and They can hardly speak about What they're seeing without Doing it in terms that we would ordinarily think of as mystical terms As they're trying to you know get down to the basis of reality So but I but I feel like you know if I sit here and say that energy or is or Or patterns or vibrations of consciousness. That's just one way Probably trying to crudely describe something that Is only known But not really It exists outside of duality or creation so to try to cast it into words is yeah, yeah, yeah You know a difficult task And so whatever and I you know, I fear this interview like this is whatever words I say could be picked apart Or dissected or refuted by another person And I wouldn't really argue with them over it is again. It's just ways of trying to describe things But what if I was making a pitch to anyone that Didn't Had a real strong opposition to the kind of things that we discussed that sound like quote-unquote mysticism Which I'll just say was reality is just say we'll go and experience it for yourself. Correct. That's that's the right things And then it becomes your personal experience and you don't really have to you don't need me to try to convince You of it. Yeah, I never will it has to be has to be experiential to be experiential wisdom. Yep. Yep There is so many things that you said in that last segment Maybe the the most important thing for me Is that when one does tap into this this overwhelming feeling of love abundance truth Bliss god consciousness all that is whatever one wants to label it as that that feeling transcends everything else and that that is that is real that is We talk about that on the show So much with so many different leaders and guests even really scientific people Speak in this way as well and that's really beautiful when you marry those two things together Because then you're you're really starting to dig at what is the truth with a scientific Method plus you're able to when you are also scientifically literate You can talk to other people that are in science and help them become more interested in Poking at what is missed this considered mystical as well So I agree those three words. They were life or light truth and intellect or intelligence. Yeah, intelligence and that those Arised here post big bang and we now See that in everything and that is So gorgeous and We talk about the the the oneness versus the dualism as well and that is also very very interesting as a topic Any other thoughts on the way out? I want to also respect Know your time and everything and if you have other thoughts that That you want to share now or any closing remarks we can say those and then we can No, I mean, yeah, just don't judge me guys about this interview, but I'm not I appreciate the opportunity and It's been good to you know interact with you on this stuff Thanks, Mark. Thank you so much for coming on the show and talking to us. We really appreciate it And don't don't don't worry at all the the interesting thing is is that we have this So grateful for people that actually watch the the show and the the whole notion of Whatever it is that a anonymity in and cyber bullying on the internet all these types of things The the channel and the audience are are very very very good at at being respectful and engaging and thought provoking with with the content and and More people stepping up and speaking about how they feel on camera and passing that along to younger people Like what you're doing is extremely important So we actually treat you like a role model for doing so inspiring other people to step up and do that same thing So, thank you. All right. Thank you. Thanks everyone for tuning in. We greatly appreciate you We would love to hear your thoughts in the comments below. 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