 Welcome back to our final session for the day. This is the first day of the virtual event from the CNI fold 2021 member meeting and we will bring the day to a flamboyant conclusion. Welcome back, Joan Lippincott, our associate director emeritus. We are always very, very happy to see Joan back with us and she's going to be moderating a wonderful panel today. This ties in very much to some of the questions we have been touching on earlier about what to do in physical space, what to do in virtual space, how to make decisions, what works best where. I think Joan and her panel are going to give us a another series of perspectives on that. So I will just welcome Joan and thank her panelists for joining us and I'll let Joan introduce her panel rather than my doing so so I will just say welcome all of you. Thanks for joining us. Great to see you. And I'll get out of the way. Thanks so much Cliff. Appreciate it. I'm delighted to moderate a panel of three very talented individuals who will talk about where we're headed as we work with our communities of users in physical and virtual spaces in the near future. Many of you are grappling with uncertainties in your own institutions. Do you renovate or create new high tech spaces that turned out to be off limits in libraries who had them during many months of the pandemic. Do we think differently about hybrid environments. How will capabilities of technologies for high end digital projects evolve in virtual space. What is it about working in physical spaces that has been and remains important for our staff and user communities. Our panelists will provide perspectives on these issues. And they are Dale ASCII Vice Provost Library and Museums and Chief Librarian at University of Alberta. Formerly he headed the Digital Scholarship Center at McMaster University, and is currently a member of the CNI steering committee. Ismail is associate university librarian for digital initiatives and information technology and associate CIO at UC Berkeley. She's been very active in the edge of cause community and was formerly a librarian at Georgetown. Mark Rhodes is principal vantage technology consulting group, where he works with higher education institution and others on planning technology strategies. He's been an active and thoughtful participant in a series of discussions sponsored by the learning spaces Collaboratory, in which I've been involved. This session will be recorded. We won't be using any slides. I'll be monitoring the chat for your questions and we may be able to take a couple after each segment, but if not will address as many as possible at the end of the session. In the meantime, please feel free to share with your colleagues your own experiences in the chat. To begin each of our panelists will set the context from the perspective of their own background and institution or company, and we'll start with solid over to you. Great. Thank you for the introduction Joan and hello everyone. It's afternoon here so I'm just going to say good afternoon. So when we first started this discussion in our group here around supporting and making complex and high touch technologies more future proof. Initially we thought we weren't just limiting ourselves to just the lessons from the past two years of the pandemic and as the pandemic continues. But it was also hard for us to not allow that to impact our thinking and the work that we do in our spaces. For me, just like most of the universities at my campus, prior to the pandemic, we were an in person default mode on site campus activities happened on campus at University of California Berkeley as many of you know protests happened on campus. Our students like to work on campus the communities that they have our instructors and faculty are the same. Most of our technology spaces, the regular ones, but also the ones that are centered around high touch, we're all around the physical experience our classrooms and teaching spaces, our maker spaces are digital signages. Usually we think about these things in terms of digital initiatives but what we also forget are in these high touch and high use complex technological spaces included are the compute clusters. Where's the secure data being computed the data clusters that many of our faculty members use for their compute environments. All of this was all centered around the in user in person experience. So much of my discussions going forward here as we continue will be around how we planned and strategized technology selection digital implementation, migration and enabled hybrid mode. And how will we continue to do that how we did that during the pandemic, but also how will we continue to do that now that we're back on site. And how will that add a new lens for the future planning that we will do. That would that is my context setting for how my answers will be discussed here. Perfect thanks so much solid and next we have park. Thank you for that introduction that was genuinely, I appreciate that. So, I am, I'm a consultant to libraries, but primarily I think my wheelhouse in this conversation as is it maybe as a technologist at all levels so I have, I have been sort of in the engine room designing systems and I have been at leadership leading the charge around technology for the enterprise and somewhere in the middle as a scholar thinking about it as a futurist or appropriate technology and I think a lot of what I see in this moment is really sort of disruption model. The pandemic did many things but amongst them was was to to really disturb and to limit the ways that we were all connected. It didn't change our objectives as humans to stay connected to continue to share knowledge all the mission of a library didn't change, but all the tools and the typical pathways were suddenly disrupted, and we found new ones. And I think much of my perspective and all this is is about how now that we are not necessarily going back right we have a new paradigm we have in this moment really experienced a massive adoption change. We have discovered new tools because the typical paths were not available to us, even if these are tools like zoom that we all knew about suddenly everything went there. So now there's a beautiful moment for us to take a step back and I think this conversation starts to explore that and look at the whole panoply of things before us and say okay we want to accomplish this this is our objective and how does that impact you know is the right tool for this something that is physical. Do we build this out into space or is this something for instance the previous presentation you know which which was almost completely virtual right not a tangible thing but still an important part of mission and outreach and collaboration. And so I think us of this moment as a new entrepreneurial opportunity for us to explore these tools. Thank you park. Yeah over to you. Thank you Joan and I take clip she saw the word flame boy and to describe this panel as both a an inspiration and a challenge so we'll try to live up to that. I made some notes about what I what I think the context is for this conversation so I felt that that we know libraries but mainly our institutions around us we triage the the criticality of our spaces during the pandemic based on really outdated criteria and that at my institution I've heard this from other institutions there was a real emphasis on reading in computer rooms you know student spaces where they could sit and work on a computer or work. And that feels to me very, very outdated and it begs the question why and if you think about it for a minute. So what happened was libraries lost some of the authority over their spaces suddenly a whole bunch of public health rules came on and now people wanted to talk about her space and some of these people hadn't thought about if they ever thought about it hadn't thought about library space in decades. So they go back to their notions of being students in the before times before before times. And so that's not necessarily a good basis for these kinds of conversations so for example, one of the things was you know how do you provide computer access to students who might have problems I'm glad that some students some some of my colleagues at the senior administrative level, we're thinking about these digital divide issues, but the most expensive way to do it is to leave a computer room open that's huge like a library, that is the most expensive way to get people access to a network there are 1000 other ways to do it that costs less money and are probably less inconvenient less risky for the students during a pandemic, but that's not the path we chose and I know that I'm not alone with that. You know if I think about what is what's been lost what's been gained during the pandemic release to the spaces and especially sort of the high contact high touch spaces high tech spaces we have losses obvious random encounters spontaneous learning spontaneous interaction that's that's just just stating the obvious. It can happen virtually, but that's the exception not the rule. Everything's pretty highly regimented everything's pretty structured in a virtual environment. And I would observe that I think in general, with some exceptions in the virtual environment discourse degrades. We have less risk rich conversations we have less probing, we have less ability to free real than we do in a virtual, and I think it's as this wears on I think a lot of us are really waking up to that. And on the gain side and it's kind of a odd game. Luddites are in super sharp focus now. We know who they are they sort of had to put their hand up and declare themselves so we had people saying we need to have stack access while other people were over here using the haughty trust emergency access quietly in much greater numbers and so we chose to stick with haughty as opposed to listen to the people saying that not touching books was you know ending their lives and their careers which which is basically what they were telling us. So that's I think I'll leave it at that the other the other the other game is that we've expanded our networks, we have bigger networks than we used to be that's a plus of the virtual environment we can expand our wings a little bit. I'll stop there. Thanks all of you for really starting us off with some thought provoking ideas. And now here's my first question it's quite broad and I'd like you to cover a variety of aspects in your in your answers. So moving ahead, but informed by the pandemic experience how do you suggest library leaders, think about planning for new or renovated technology rich physical spaces versus moving more into virtual spaces. And I'd like you to consider things like what what kinds of technologies. Are you thinking about what is it about the physical space that you would suggest be considered. And what about the human and social consideration so all of you touched a little bit on some of these issues but I'd like you to go more in depth and we'll start with park this time. Yeah, I'm going to try and make my response brief because I'm eager to hear from Dale and saw along this. When it comes to physical versus virtual I'm not sure it's a little bit of a false dichotomy. I think that the sort of forecast of this answer already in that. There are certain things that the physical is the best work. If we want to acquire tangible skills hands on skills or we want to collaborate together, or you're trying to guide people or can make it back connection. I think, you know you ask, why do we want to accomplish this where what is the best to accomplish this and there may be situations where you need a, in particular, with the dawn of digital scholarship you might need some sort of platform that can render the digital. So people can can now tangibly collaborate on it together. I think, you know, virtual may be the space where it might not be as I mean defined virtual right all these questions what do you mean by virtual what do you mean by high flex. Are we trying to accomplish a some sort of equitable experience between people who can physically join us and people who cannot. That might be a significantly different configuration that there's a different tool than if high flex is, how are we supporting the same level of scholarship, or the same level of engagement with the library and its knowledge base remotely or physically, which might be two different programs to different platforms as fanciful but I think you know it may there's. There may be that there's a lot of Pareto principle here a 20, there may be a lot of very simple things that people can do that it's not, you know, video walls everywhere. And there may be a need for in some cases those specialty spaces. One thing I think is that moving forward with these two realms means that we're going to this is something I think so can comment on really well how we fund them might be very differently right a capital project versus something that we stand up that is virtual. How we build them and how we leverage them for the mission which might not change much but the tools we have and how we leverage them to accomplish that mission I think is going to constantly accelerate. So I will stop there and pass on to my colleagues. Thanks part down. Let's have your thoughts. I think when we're when we're looking at these kinds of spaces that have been, you know, a lot of places have been developing these for the last decade and so it's an ongoing conversation. I would hope that we take a shift towards the even greater shift toward the less predetermined and the more organic development that we that we think really flexibly about our spaces rather than building monolithic spaces by monolithic I mean, big visualization walls and heavy technology installations and sort of if we put these really fancy things people will come into the library and use them and instead sort of build it up in this in a succession of waves so that we can set things up and take them down as as technology cycles which it does so quickly. I would hope that during the pandemic we've all learned the value of the quick and elegant pivot and that's kind of what I'm thinking that in these spaces we need is the ability to sort of change direction without having to read, invest capital funds and retrain and so forth so that's a big one. We're generally though, I've thought about this in terms of like our reopening has really focused on, well what do we open and when you know we have to open up reading space for students but when does the digital scholarship center. When does special collections open up when does the archive to open up. And what I'm describing is there's a center and there's a periphery, and literally in most libraries these things tend to be peripheral they're not by the door, some places they are, but most of them tend to be on the top for the bottom floor off in some random space that was found for these kinds of things, or in the basement, in the case of special collections which I've never understood those places. So is it time for those things to start being the core of the library. In other words, should we have these kinds of spaces where a library where there's just an assemblage of these specialized spaces, and there are study space their study space and and socializing space, sort of in the interest disease. And the other observations based in part on, we plan these specialized spaces and then we open up huge acres of space with a lot less planning and thought going into it, and that space is really it's like a lot of universities, it's you, it's utilization is really spotty. At times it is overrun with humanity about 20 days a year to be around exams and the first couple days of the semester, then it falls into steady state and for part of the year it's a ghost town. There's just nobody there. And so we're wasting a resource and what could we do in that space and that time that it's being wasted. And that's what I'm talking about these these specialized spaces. The goal of this or underlying all of this is a question that really obsesses me is, how can we bring in particular graduate students and faculty and postdocs back into contact with libraries literally back into the space in some ways, which I think is a benefit for them because a lot of them seek third spaces and something besides their disciplinary space to do and meet colleagues from other, from other other disciplines. And also I mean it more virtual more generally like how do we bring people back into contact with libraries where they begin to see the value propositions beyond just having analog collections or digital collections, and study space for students that they actually begin to see us as, you know, partners and research ideation of research development and so forth. And, and that's an area where I think there's so much desire and so much capacity and libraries to do to do great things for universities that is being woefully utilized to, I think, pretty much any institution with a few exceptions and maybe with a few pockets of exception at some institutions. So, so I think a lot about this and they're not going to come back for study spaces and they're not going to come back for, you know, big, you know, computer labs they're going to come back for something that actually enhances their, their experience and gives them a really enhancement to their, to their, what they get from their faculty what they get from their faculty. Thank you, Dale. I can't resist adding a few comments of my own in response. I do agree that we need to highlight what you refer to as specialized spaces front and center, and that can be done either by placing the spaces themselves or sometimes with special collections, placing both an analog and a digital exhibit very near the entrance Ohio State at least when I visited there and their main library had such an exhibit. And, and I've seen other a few others like those but I've never understood why libraries that spend so much money digitizing their special collections don't highlight them. They're in the door so you know what what they have to offer. I'd also mentioned the NC State Hill library, which put the maker space with glass walls at the front, right at the entrance right as you come in. And so that was also this acknowledgement that we need to demonstrate we need to show people what the 21st century library is and put it right up front. I appreciate your perspectives. Thank you. And so Thanks, Joan, and I will add so we. I'm going to add some personal comments before I start off with in response. So we actually do that here at our library where we do have digital renderings of our exhibit that's in physical spaces. But what we realized was both those things had to be translated to a different online environment when our spaces shut down because no one could come see the digital renderings on the large monitor screens either. And actually, our maker space is out in the open here so it's not even just behind glass spaces, the tables and things are out in the open where students are seeing each other. As you're walking past you can have a conversation with someone building something or doing something. That was just those are just personal comments for the moment so and Joan, please feel free to cut me off if my answer goes on and on to how leaders should be thinking about planning for new or renovated technology spaces. I will say for me when this all started it was like well we will now need to plan for all different kinds of learning scenarios. And then I had to take a step back and realize well where's the prioritization around this. So, personally here, even before the pandemic, my first semester at UC Berkeley. I had just started working here, we had the fire season and we had to shut down. And that got me thinking around, okay well how are users going to use our spaces they still wanted to use our stacks. And also how do we ensure that these things are, these spaces could can be utilized when things change so and it was the fire and season smoke we then had the pandemic, and who knows what's in store next right. So, while this is challenging it also creates opportunities for innovation experimentation, I truly believe the thing we need to experiment. Maybe with smaller spaces things may not always work I use the Google labs example, but we cannot be afraid of failing we have to try something out put it in labs, see how it works and if it doesn't take a step back revert go somewhere else. So, for us it was also around campus partnerships, which what this brought around was thinking through our data and compute environments that we were providing that we're on site, and what pandemic made us think was, well, researchers cannot come on site to get access to their data and to get access to their high performance compute environments how do we ensure that the secure data that has certain compliance issues can now actually be served up not just through VPN but other secure mechanisms, in addition to VPN. There's also the training and support part that we often forget when we think of these high tech spaces, we build them and then how do we train our librarians are student assistants library employees as student assistants are working there. To ensure that when a question comes in someone can actually troubleshoot or are we always going back to the vendor or the high tech teams that have designed these things. You know, taking something that Dale had said, sometimes we're just quick to react on anecdotal evidence of a few over understanding how the majority of the users will be doing the work and research in these spaces. So, yes, while there is this technological component. There's also the social and human interaction part that should really guide the use of this technology. And I do think we need to be responsive and not reactive right. So what's expected of space changes I think this is kind of what Dale was alluding to. So, um, sorry just lost my guess what's expected of these space changes so we need to plan them with most flexibility and electrical and network outlets for me. Let's have all the electrical outlets you can let's have all the network outlets you can the space will find its use and then that use can evolve over time. As the needs for efficient pedagogy and the needs for that space change you may realize the second floor is your entrance. And in a few years there's this major remodeling project and now the third floor is your entrance. What's supposed to have been the front and center on the second floor now needs to either be moved but if it's this box with electrical and great network outlets because our Wi-Fi isn't always the best sometimes we're working on it. It can be repurposed for the next use of that high high touch or low touch space that is needed. So, um, beyond that I also think it varies library, while it varies library to library. Most users, when they do want an interactive space, they want something with a large screen where they can work on their joint projects, they can show something they can edit things they can teach each other what they're doing. And those spaces. Instantly can sometimes be the easiest to plan the complexity stems actually when high touch in person spaces and interactions then need to be converted for remote operation, or even hybrid like how does, how do you train a student to use a laser over zoom, or how do you train an employee to scan that awesome scanner that Dale has behind in his background. How do you use an employee, how do you teach an employee over zoom, how to use that equipment. We actually had to do that at Berkeley because we were bringing back employees to do high touch digitization, and we have to set up training over zoom because this was back last year when we did even know if six feet of social distancing was okay. How do you design for that and that is what needs to be kept in mind. And then, as I was saying earlier, there's certain other spaces like your compute environment to think about data security and data that cannot be accessed from outside of campus beat HIPAA compliance or other, not other compliance issues I'm sorry that you're thinking and that's where the reflection and the realization needs to be that not everything needs to be planned for both. Some services really do not transition well to virtual environments, and maybe they're not meant to transition, and having that understanding before the work is initiated can be time and money saving. So, we're returning to campus right now, and our biggest one of our biggest needs is actually not around having 3D modeling spaces or AR VR realization, but it's actually around having teaching and meeting spaces that can accommodate a hybrid environment so the simple run of the mill that people think about mics cameras that can capture all the angles and bring in virtual folks into the in person space and provide that high flex environment. So, I will wrap up by making two points here. First thing is training. I cannot stress enough around this as leaders when we're planning about redesigning these spaces. Let's think about the training component to ensure that not only does everyone know how to use the setup, but also the software that's on the setup and that's extremely vital. The users can pivot and use the space to serve them, and not the other way around where the users are making this trying to make do with the space that they have. And the other thing I will mention is often the neglected aspect, the maintenance the unspoken maintainers and the maintenance. The more complex the technology the higher is your reliance on the vendor, or the teams that provide it so ask yourself the question. What does effective pedagogy look like and will this setup serve or enhance it per the user and not based on our inherent implicit assumptions that we do sometimes carry around because of certain anecdotal evidence that we may have. And with that, I will pass back the virtual mic. Thanks so much so you gave us a lot of food for thought and you've touched on a number of things that I think our listeners our participants are interested in. Another question for you is, I've been hearing discussion of libraries thinking about developing additional spaces, or converting spaces to support teaching and learning such as high flex classrooms which we've already, some of you have already referred to and spaces for individuals to in virtual classes privately while they're on campus. And I'm going to ask you for your perspectives on this topic but we also have a question in the chat that's related to this and actually you touched on it a little bit so the question from Todd Capone is, do you see new modes of storytelling. AR and VR, for example, and new modes of scholarship remote research remote teaching influencing the library and changing and influencing perceptions on appropriate use of space so let's tie those two things together if you will, as you address this and we're going to start with jail this time. Thanks, Joan. Yeah, I would take this question in its two parts and I would talk first about sort of developing the teaching spaces high flex or technology rich teaching spaces I'll call them. And the second part which is about individuals and being able to participate in online instruction online courses when they're on campus. So the first one I can I can I can probably get a little tiny bit of ranty about this because I feel like that's that's sort of one of those evergreen topics in the Academy which is that there are always the sort of the pedagogically inclined or adventurous who want to go really far in the direction of a really active classroom so 656 years ago we would have talked about active learning classroom so I haven't heard that phrase. Since I came to Alberta, you know I just it just seems to have fallen completely out of use and high flex is now a way to talk about and I realize they're not the same thing I'm sort of making a fruit salad out of different types of fruit here but the, but the concept is sort of the same as like how do we create these these courses where people can do things virtually and physically and where it all kind of comes together. I, I have a lot of questions about that pedagogically. I have a lot of questions about it organizationally because with active learning classrooms we learned that they might look good and the demonstrations the steel case. You or whatever it's called in Michigan might look really good, but it's your institution the number of faculty who can actually use that space is designed to be used. You can count on one hand two hands I don't care how big your institution is like it's just not that many people who are prepared. It's exhausting. It's exhausting to read to revamp your curriculum to teach in that space. It's exhausting to conduct teaching in that space with a lot of a lot of support. I don't think there are many faculty that would say that the increases they see for their teaching or the supports they receive their teaching or increasing not decreasing and so that's this question I think we need to ask about what we're asking faculty to do. I also don't think we've really done the work of what students want what I hear anecdotally, but the anecdotes repeat themselves enough that it's almost like a assemblage of data points now and it's almost a data set which is that students tolerate online. Students love in person and they really hate hybrid, like they get really confused when they have to go back and forth and so we have students on this campus as do a lot of you who have a number of classes and they come to campus for this class and then they go to this other class online and I just say what is the logic behind that what is the pedagogical mission on of course it's a reaction to the pandemic but we should be good at universities and making this make sense and we don't in some ways. So we really, we really need to think about this and for so for me it's really a question of like are we talking about field of dreams, build it and people will work themselves into that space, or should we do this based on evidence and encounters with people and that and like I always said I mean like build these build things that are flexible. And so I think that we can talk about these kinds of things but unfortunately universities really quickly they turn over into the, you know, the, the, our motto of technology and it's like oh boy now we've invested in now we have to maintain this and now we have to have stats we can actually fix that and we have to teach people how to use it. That's a high order for most institutions for pretty much anyone I think. Second part of it bridging into like spaces for people to do those those kinds of to do courses online on our campus. I have to say that when it occurred to me recently when I was having this conversation with some people on this campus that it's kind of oxymoronic to talk about this, creating space in a physical library on campus, so that people can participate in online classes. Now, the classes online probably because it's a large lecture class and it's considered unsafe for it to meet in a lecture hall that I can see out the window right there, but it's okay for those same students to walk into this building which is full of just as many, if not more human beings breathing and moving and talking and take a class. To me that just makes no sense. It shows the logic of all these pandemic restrictions in some ways I mean don't get me wrong I'm not against them but there's they're often counterintuitive and they often don't make sense like why forget a lecture and let people come into a library and gather in large numbers it just makes no sense to me. So I don't necessarily want to have a long term conversation about this because I do feel like it's a moment we're having and this isn't going to persist students at this university are making very clear that they want in person classes. So I think that we're going to see a return of in person classes. And I also don't think that I think that we as I'll say older attention challenged people maybe because we don't like noise and we don't like bustle. We think that students need like a monastic you know soundproof cubicle to do an online class if they're in the library. I don't see that I walk through our library and I see those spaces that empty and I go into the really loud spaces and I see people with their earbuds in in class and I'm like, we have silence space upstairs, and yet it's a ghost town, and they all pack together there's something about they want people they want to be around people even the people are doing a different class. And that tells me a lot and I wish people at this university would come into the library and just sit and watch that for 10 minutes. I think the conversation around creating space for students to take online classes would flip on a dime if they did that. Thanks, Dale. I, some people call that studying along instead of alone. And, and I think it's certainly a phenomenon, but I can't let it go by your some of your comments about active learning classrooms because I personally, I do feel strongly about that. They do have a purpose and particularly in the sciences and there has been a lot of assessment that has shown the differences that that kind of pedagogy makes in some of the large introductory science courses where students came to college, expecting to eventually go to medical school or go on to graduate school in the sciences, and they fail those introductory courses because the teaching was terrible. And so they've totally restructured some of those, both pedagogically and spatially to include active learning and there are results from a number of campuses there are studies that show that it that it does work and but I agree it takes investment, it takes investment of faculty time, and it takes support from either IT staff or teaching and learning center staff or library staff or others to make it actually work so I hope you don't mind my pushing back on that. Okay. Thanks. So you're up next. Great. Thanks again, Joan, and you know this was an interesting question as I was typing in my response and thinking through this. I actually took a step back prior to the pandemic and my campus again just like most other libraries. We've, we've always had certain classrooms equipped with lecture capture technologies that are academic technologies teams have always supported right so we've always had classrooms where faculty have taught online class are you an in person class which is being recorded and will be made available online later. So with our return back to in person learning and teaching the needs for these such spaces have gone up, of course. And I think this update was saying that the libraries get asked like will you be providing this, but short of specified and specific campus funding and direction of resources for this. It is really hard to maintain such classrooms it is really hard to troubleshoot and 7pm class when most, you know, when eight to five for the normal working hours for most team members, or when you are running off student employees were supporting a lot of these staffing areas. So that just adds to the complexity of who's providing these resources and then, as Dale was again mentioning. So now, is it the library's responsibility to provide 500 individual pods where the large seminar classes can happen, or open spaces where 500 students are sitting at the same time attending the same class. I'm not advocating one way or another different libraries have different responsibilities and different ways of approaching it but those are the things that came to mind. At my library particularly we've always supported flexible classrooms for library instruction and other student usage during non peak hours. They're generally again equipped with cameras and microphones and speakers. So they've always allowed for hybrid instruction. What the pandemic or these two years of actually working from home brought about was the software that was actually being used that people learn to use more in a more interesting way so it wasn't like converting space actually into a virtual environment, but rather learning those pedagogical things around instruction and instruction design that could make that virtual space more hybrid more that could make that virtual space just as interesting as the in person interactions and spaces and in some cases as Dale had mentioned that just may not be possible. So for our purposes right now in short term, we're not making any changes except ensuring that our spaces continue to be equipped that the way they were. We are of course ensuring that they're supportive technology. So they're all these different dongles and adapters, but we're also a large campus about over 40,000 students. So anything more than that definitely becomes very resource intensive. I will add that with the hybrid environment there is this question of equity diversity that doesn't always get tackled. Are your transcription services the right way will the student who does not have who has who are newer diverse are able to handle this accordingly. And this really isn't as much about the high flex classrooms, or whether the classrooms are virtual, it all again goes and centers around the pedagogy and ensuring that there's this equity where everyone can participate. And if there are students who are coming back to campus who may not have the technology, or who may not have the dorm room spaces or may not even have a dorm space where they can participate how are they ensuring that how are we ensuring that they can actually participate in this. I do want to stress here on the equity and the DEI component quite a bit, because it's not just the hardware technology but the software technology that brings it in. And then finally, what the key here is to yes take multiple scenarios into planning, but ensure that your front level operational staff are trained and prioritize those scenarios what are 80% of your users asking for our from the faculty then equipped to use those scenarios and those spaces, and just ensuring that people around are comfortable using those technologies in the ways that they were intended to be used for participation and interaction and teaching and learning that is supposed to happen there. And with that I will pass this back to you, I think. Thanks all for making those points. And Park is next up and I invite all of you who are listening to type any questions you have in the chat and we'll try to take as many as we can. After Park answers this next this question. I mean, I invite what I like to refer to it as productive cynicism I think that Dale and the solid demonstrated excellently and hit all the points right there's this funding there's resources and supporting all these spaces. And it sort of makes me want to take a step back and say hold on here. Why are we talking about high flex it has existed long before the pandemic by the way, as a thing. And its mission is very different than I think how it's being used colloquially now. So what is it about that that is suddenly of such interest now, which I'll answer second, you know, so kind of method, but also why the library. The library is due to territories because no one wants to touch it it's actually the third rail, and the library is going to end up getting stuck with this because those are all, you know, solid and Dale talking about support. And is this where the excellence of actually doing this right because what we're talking about here in high flex is a space that that you could be anything it. I think largely what people see in it is just being to rapidly deploy classes such that so many continue to teach, and people can either attend physically or not, which has huge problems in terms of the equity of the experience for those who can make it or cannot for reasons that may not be of their own doing a class attended personally is not great content. You know, if you're recording this and wanting to put it online. So if you follow that line of logic, then why are we just taking lectures, and when lectures will be held at the same time with the same pace with the same content, and just moving them into a camera on a laptop for the instructor and students listening in this is continues to be sort of this enrollment and butts in seats, sort of a model where this might be better I think of for instance times right back to the library. The Jones media center and the edX Studio at Dartmouth are really interesting model these are two separate things but the Jones media center is this great sandbox where students can develop hands on media skills and can acquire these skills and this highly flexible place where there's pipe grid they can bolt things on and both them off, right there speaks to support there's people who are our IT AV production people who are librarians thinking about media and even story editors, helping students to create content and work on that and helping faculty to gain those skills as well in that same space in a safe way. There's an amount of funding there and and not just like let's build this thing and then be done with it. The biggest part of that funding and as a person who was on that project, you know I kept saying I'd rather you build a white box and put nothing in it, and be able to continue on to constantly change things day by day, then to slap a bunch of screens on the wall and feel like we made something innovative. It never gets used and that you can't keep up with it. There's another side of this to which is so now students can create content where they might have been typing or reading or or doing AR VR work they can do that there and they can engage those tools and create content with those new frontiers. And with the edX studio, you know this is a classroom effectively but it's they're creating content that is compelling, and where students are learning of students of all varieties by the way we we don't have time to unpack what it means to be a student when you can access this content you can be an alumni trying to gain new skills in Excel right and diving into economics classes. Anytime you want and it's compelling it's quick and it takes place of a lot of the pedagogical vector that lectures used to be mass marketing or mass dissemination with higher outcomes. And it completely displaces the need for that large hall or the need for the time or or in the synchrony. And by the way, these two spaces were planned separately and when they started moving them and launching they suddenly realized that there was a synergy there and they're now co located. So that students can now see the professional work going on and when a good idea happens and one or the other it could be sprung out and dragged in and now you're getting real world skills. I think there's an enormous lesson to be had there about why the library what the space means why high flex and and maybe even a slight nod to Todd's question about what AR VR has as a role, which might be more just as a platform for gaining skills than necessarily something that is ported into the library as an environment or a service. Well, I think that if anything, if you weren't flamboyant, you were all provocative and lively, and I really really thank you for that. We're almost at time and so I've put two resources in the chat, hopefully they've come up, or did I just delete them. Hold on a second. There we go. I want to call your attention to the series that we did at CNI. A little over a year ago, the digital scholarship planning webinar series because we do have one session on pandemic we have another session on spaces and there's lots of material that if this topic interests you. I'll come back and look at the videos and PowerPoints. And the second one is the session session that I moderated for the learning spaces collaboratory on a topic that was somewhat similar to this and there are lots of other good resources at that website. So I didn't see other questions in the chat. Thanks Dale for answering one of the questions there. So, instead, since we're just about at time, I'm going to close out the session by giving a really, really big thank you to Park to Dale and to Sala for an excellent session and I really appreciate your input your thoughtfulness and your ideas. And that concludes the meeting I think Cliff's coming back on and I hope I'll see some of you tomorrow. Thank you. Thank you all for a fabulous session and especially Joan. Thank you for putting that together and moderating it. An awful lot to think about there and very grateful to you for pulling it together and yes, it was flamboyant as a conclusion for the day. Well done. Thank you all for joining us today. And please come back at about one Eastern tomorrow and we will pick up the second day of our, our virtual event for fall 2021. I wish you all a good afternoon or evening as appropriate and thank you again for joining us. Take care.