 This is Think Tech Hawai'i. Community matters here. Okay, we're back. We're live. You know, we told you so, and it came true yet again. 4 p.m. on Wednesday, our flagship show, Energy Policy Forum. And it's all about Hawai'i, the state of clean energy. We talk about every aspect of that. Sharon Moriwaki, my co-host and co-chair of the Hawai'i Energy Policy Forum. Thank you for being here, Sharon, as always. Thank you for having the show. We have Joelle Simone Pietri. She's a big cheese with biofuel these days. We're going to talk more about that. She's also a commander in the United States Navy. Am I right about that? Reserve. Reserve. Okay, all right. To me, it's all the same. But don't give any orders around here, okay? We're all on egalitarian level. I wouldn't dream of it with you around here. And Carl Campania, who seems to be a nice guy, but we have very little data about that. Oh, honestly, Carl was a host here for a long time. And he's very familiar with this kind of show and with Think Tech. And we like to have his smile and face around all the time. Thanks for being here, Carl. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, so you guys want to talk about biofuel and the bioeconomy. Lots of things have been happening, so let's roll it out and try to familiarize our listening and viewing audience with what has been happening in biofuel. Joelle, you're first. What about this event that you had, only what? January 16th. What about that? What was that? A couple of weeks ago. So it was technically the third annual Bioeconomy Hawaii Forum. And we've got some graphics that we can show of what the different presenters. But it was an all-day thing. Sharon helped to co-sponsor it. We had several of the Energy Policy Forum staff actually help with a lot of the logistics, which was great. And Carl was one of my co-chairs. And then we had two other co-chairs. All right. Hint. This is the time we're going to show the slides. Watch this. Bingo. Slide. It's there. I know it's there. Sharon, do you give us a running description? Sure. The Bioeconomy Hawaii Forum was to bring together industry practitioners as well as federal, state, and local government representatives and nonprofits focused on the integration this year, integration between food, fuel, and waste reuse. That is basically the Bioeconomy. So one of our presenters was Hawaii Gas, and here's a picture of their newest project, which is actually to recapture biogas that's being generated at the wastewater treatment plant. This is not LNG. This is not fossil fuel. This is biogas. This is the bioversion of LNG. Wow. So things are evolving in Hawaii Gas. It's actually natural in the liquefied natural gas. Real natural gas. So this wastewater treatment plant in Honolulu has actually been flaring its biogas for over 20 years, and all Hawaii Gas is doing is going to be bottling it and actually selling it to their customers through their pipeline, which required a two-year docket with the Public Utilities Commission to get permission to do that. Did they have permission? They received permission last in December. Oh, that's a big deal. Yes. So I'm a gas customer. Yes. It's not just that I have gas, but I actually use gas. I'm sure you've got it coming and going. You consume it. Coming and going. Yes. And I like gas, by the way. I'm not going to get any more familiar with it than that. That means when I take the gas in, when they supply me with gas, it's going to include this biofuel gas, right? It will include some biogas in it, and you're actually going to have Rich Tagaramo from Hawaii Gas come and give a deep dive on this specific project on the 28th. So look for this show on the 28th of February. Okay, let's look at that now. And you'll get a deep dive from Rich Tagaramo. We're going to see more stuff. Yeah, pull up the next picture. So this, and if you go to the next one, this is the Oceanic Institute's brand spanking new feed mill in Hilo. This is part of the integrated bioeconomy. Where is that in Hilo? Where is it in Hilo? I think it's actually right next to the Pacific Biodiesel plant because part of the integration is that waste macadamia nuts, for example, or algae meal, go to Pacific Biodiesel to their crushing mill to get the oil extracted, and then the protein meal that's left over goes to the feed mill here and is formulated into actual feed. This is a processing plant. This is a processing plant. So what kind of biofuels can it process? This is not processing the biofuels. Remember, this is the integrated food and fuel system. So that plant is going to be processing the meal left over after the biofuels are extracted to actually make aquaculture and cattle feed. Okay, so it's a big machine and it comes out. There's an output there, and one of the outputs is bio, I could drink it, bio material. The crushing mill I'm not showing because Pacific Biodiesel has already shown that on a few other shows. This is the feed mill. This is to actually take the protein meal left over after the oil extraction. Okay. The protein meal that's left from academia. This is not creating biofuel. This is dealing with the meal that comes out of the processing of biofuel. What makes the biofuel lower in cost is being able to do higher value added products from the primary products. The primary product is the animal feed. Then the leftover, the waste, is what you make the biofuel out of. So you have to factor that in when you talk about the cost of creating a gallon of biofuel, right? You use the value added products to buy down the cost of biofuel. I have another fantastic graphic that actually shows some of that stretch. I feel it's coming now, watch this. Not just yet, but pull up the next one. It's coming, it's coming. Oh, there it is now. Okay, so that's the feed mill again. The next one after that. This is an example of the forestry plantation. There are several of these on the big island as well as Kauai. Eucalyptus stands like these are what some of our other presenters on the January 16th event talked about. So this is theoretically going to be going to the Hohonua Bioenergy Power Plant, which will be making electricity. So that's part of the bioeconomy, not necessarily specifically biofuels. Those beautiful trees will be cut down? Those are eucalyptus. They were planted for the purpose of being cut down. And if you go to the next image, I think the next one will be this is what another one of our presenters from Hueco Plants talked about. This is an overhead image of He'e'i'ia on Oahu back in 1928. This is actually what, you know, before sort of modernized, you know, residential and commercial and industrial, you know, changes to the watershed and the Ahupua'a on that side of the island. This is actually what He'e'i'ia looked like under Hawaiian cultivation practices. In 1928. In 1928. So they're a point, the point that they made of the things that really got everybody excited at the Bioeconomy Hawaii Forum is you harvest the eucalyptus trees and then replant with native and indigenous species that can also become part of the bioeconomy because they also produce food, feed, fiber, fuel and other value-added products for the modern economy as well. If I went and took a picture of that exact location right now today, what would it look like? I think you'd see a lot of mangrove. You wouldn't see a lot of water. You'd see a lot of very hard work for years done on the weekends trying to restore those fish ponds in He'e'i'ia. So, you know, questions. So we're talking about bioeconomy. By the way, is that your term? Bioeconomy? It is not. Carl? It's not my term. Okay, just checking. It's a good term. It's really catchy. So if I talk about the bioeconomy, what I'm doing is I'm growing something. It all assumes I'm growing something, right? Every product that goes into biofuels is something that has grown on the land. Now, bioeconomy is more than just biofuel. Bioeconomy is food, energy, feed, fiber, you know, value-added products. It starts with you growing something on the land. The whiskey being produced on the North Shore, which was presented by another one of our presenters. Whiskey? Yeah, whiskey on the North Shore. And you use whiskey in the car? That's a value-added product. It has too much water content, and it would be very, it would be, you might as well burn dollar bills. Okay, but going back to it, it always starts growing something on the land. Yes, you have something that is, involves biological growth. So you're really talking about agriculture? Yes, it's the integration of agriculture into the modern economy. Okay, let me ask you, Carl. What is the status of agriculture insofar as it is a source for the bioeconomy? What is the status of it now here in Hawaii, nay? That's a big question that I think you need the Department of Agriculture to answer. I know that, to my understanding from what I've heard, the Hawaii State Department of Agriculture is actually moving forward at a brisk pace headed towards this direction, wanting to increase the amount of local food produced, wanting to increase the amount of overall land usage, try to bring infrastructure to current fallow lands that don't have it. So they're very interested in, across the board, trying to bring the bioeconomy and advance it further. They see this as a priority. They see it as a priority, and it's also a priority that was given to them by current Governor David E. Gaye when he said he wants to double the amount of local food production. So they're on a path to do that. That case food means biofood, biofuel food. Locally produced foods. Cubans are biofueled organisms. That's another way of looking at it. That's very natural. Very naturally so. Okay, so the question is, the Department of Agriculture wants to see this. We all want to see this. How does the Department of Agriculture make that happen? What is in the tool case there? Once again, they would be the ones to really answer the question, but what I'm aware of is, in addition to doing studies, they get together with stakeholders and put projects together. They have teams of people within the department that work on the development of various aspects of projects in order to come up with the data from the various projects and sites that they've been working with in order to try to achieve these goals and present the results so that they can continue to achieve more goals. So the kinds of things... Yes, attending. So the Department of Agriculture has a couple of ways to play. One is the Department of Agriculture in Hawaii owns some land, some Class A and B agricultural land in some key areas. Do you know who the biggest landowner in the state is? Federal government. But that's beside the point. I think it's the state. You were asking about the... It has enormous tracts of land that can dedicate to this. And we're hoping to... Yeah, and it's splint public and private. So the Department of Agriculture also has a regulatory role. And so a lot of the staff at the Department of Agriculture has to focus on the regulatory role, which is dealing with invasive species and invasive species eradication. Those are negative. That's certifying. You can't do things. It's hard. We're not going to let you do this, that, and the other thing. What about the things that can do to incentivize this priority? That's one of the unfortunate things about Hawaii and the underfunding of the Department of Agriculture is that most of the staff has to be focused on their regulatory responsibilities. If they were properly funded. Maybe in my dreams, they'd probably, you know, someday... Well, that was the intent of Hawaii's Barrel Act. The intent of Hawaii's Barrel Act was to provide more funding. What would they do? If I gave them a million, billion. If they were awash in money, what would they do to incentivize the development of biofuel and bioeconomy in the state? What would they do? What action would they take? Giving land is a good thing. What else? Making land available, working with various stakeholders and investors to develop various aspects of the bioeconomy. Make deals. And also help... There is a gap in planning and road mapping and facilitation. Like, you know, the Department of Planning does for real estate development. You know, there are master plans to decide, you know, where the roads go, what the capacity needs to be, you know, where the schools and the residential and commercial, you know, bill that needs to be in certain areas in Hawaii. How does that incentivize? There's no... If you create the master plan, that doesn't currently exist certainly for bioeconomy or biofuels or anything in that regard. There are various aspects and various bills that are trying to help that a little bit, but there's no actual master plan as far as... Right now there is no bioeconomy master plan. There was a study that was written in 2010... Called the BioEnergy Master Plan? Called the BioEnergy Master Plan. Very little of that has been followed up on and we are far enough removed from it that a new one really needs to be done based on our current information. Is there any way of looking at that, dusting it off and saying, hey, some of this has been done or, you know, at least going back to that BioEnergy Master Plan because it was a kind of expensive plan to put together. Right. And is it under deep beds charge to know who and what can be done? It was deep beds responsibility. That's actually one of the things of the trade association that Carl will be talking about, but one of the things we've talked about the trade association raising is the BioEnergy Master Plan could use an update because it is 10 years old and it excluded... You don't throw it out. You don't throw it out. No, there's a lot... You go back to the 2010 and try to use it in some way. Yeah, probably. What it is is a very good compilation of information, a lot of which is still current. The master plan part actually never got written. So what it is is a bunch of appendices that gather very useful data needed to inform decisions for master planning, but deep bed stops short of an actual master plan which has things like priorities. You know, when you have to decide between what can be used on a certain kind of piece of land relative to the rest of the bioeconomy and the large economy around it, how do you choose? That's what a good master plan does. But an incentive plan will say come hither. Bring me your tired, huddled investors yearning to be free and make a business here. Build a farm, hire people. That's another aspect that needs to be done and that's another aspect that the trade organization is working on. That's not the Department of Agriculture, although we like their support as much as we can get it, but we're talking about trying to advance a legislative agenda and to help open it up. I thought you would get to that. Carl, as the Executive Director of the Hawaii Bioeconomy Trade Association, thank you for being here in that capacity, his hands are physically located right now on a list of bills that the trade association has submitted or caused to be submitted. No, no, no. That the trade organization is tracking. We have been involved in the creation of a couple of them, but mostly it's just bills tracking that in one way or another have biofuels or the bioeconomy incorporated into them. Okay, talk about them. There's currently 14 bills. I'm not going to go through each and every one of them, but there are currently 14 bills that we're tracking. Some of the important ones include Senate Bill 3077. You guys are taking positions on this, right? Yes, no or maybe. Yes. Filing testimony on it. With many of these, not all of these will we be submitting testimony on, but we have submitted testimony on several of them, including 3077. What that one is suggesting, a couple of things, very important things. Number one, that we increased the biofuel tax credit. The what it looks like. The biofuel facility production tax credit. What does it say to that now? It's currently at 3 million. The request is increased. Collective leap. Collective cap of 3 million. May I say that that's not... Statewide. That's not very high. That's not sunflower seeds. It's peanuts. Very much so. We're here on ThinkTech. So, we're asking that they be increased the number that they're increasing it through or requesting that it be increased to is 3.5 million. Okay. We'll take it. We need more. But that's one aspect. The next aspect, which is perhaps more important than that is eliminating the sunset. There's currently a five-year sunset. Once the project begins, there's five years, and then if you don't complete the project in the five years, it disappears. You want to talk about what will bring the investors? Eliminating that sunset, because it takes five years just to get through the permitting process at the moment. Yeah, that's terribly unfair. Exactly. So, we eliminate that, and now the investors will show up and say, okay, great. We don't have to worry about a sunset. We will invest in this and go through this process. The final aspect of that bill, which is equally important that plays into this, is the creation of a biofuels facilitator within the department, within DBET, the state energy office. Is energy going to stay in DBET? You know? That's a whole separate bill. There is a bill about what's going to happen with DBET. Yes. Because there are some people that we should not be in DBET. Well, I think it's going to stay in DBET. What they're talking about, what Representative Chris Lee is talking about doing is taking the state energy office and making it the clean energy office and reorganizing it, but still keeping it under DBET. So I think it's still going to stay there. Okay. Wherever it goes, you want to go there. Yes, and that's fine. You want to add a special official. We need a facilitator there that is focused on, exactly. And some of the conversations that Senator Lorena Noe, who is introducing this bill, has had conversations. She's the chair of the Energy Commission Senate. She is on the Senate side. She has had conversations with DBET, and they're in agreement with that plan. So maybe it's going somewhere. So hopefully we get this facilitator and this facilitator will work on the permitting aspects, the procurement aspects, as well as help facilitate projects. And that's what we're hoping to achieve. And that bill in itself will, well, can, if it passes, bring about more opportunities for the infrastructure and the investment necessary. There's a public official who is presumably going to advocate for that. Exactly. And you hope the right person will be selected. And I do hope the right person will be selected. And I trust that they will. Okay. Now, Joelle, you are the chief instigator, instigation officer, pardon me, of the Hawaii Biofuel Trade Association. And I would like to ask you how much of what Carl has said you agree with? A hundred percent. She was whispering. A hundred percent was the answer. You want to add anything? Well, there's a couple of things that I can show your watchers, you know, that we've been tracking as far as big-picture market items. So that is part of the context behind some of these policy recommendations that the Trade Association is making. But Carl actually runs the Trade Association. I'm a... I always knew you were an instigator. It's something we haven't come to. Is it really called instigator? What is it called? So, Carl, what does it look like this session? How are these bills doing right now? Are they set for committee hearings? Is it too early to ask that? No, no. All 14 of the bills that we're tracking, and there may be a couple of others and we're still investigating, but all 14 that we're tracking have been assigned to committees. Not all of them have received a hearing date yet. Many of them have. As I mentioned, we've already submitted testimony on a few of them. And we're looking forward to submitting testimony on others. So, of the ones that we have seen so far, they have all passed, some passed with amendments. We're hoping that some of our recommendations make it into the amendments. It's an act of... It's an act of process. And what it tells me is that there's more action. Am I right about this? There's more action about biofuels and the bioeconomy this year than there has been in the past. More people are interested. More people are involved in the industry. More people have aspirations about, you know, about being involved and seeing it flourish. I believe that's true. So why is that? Why now? Why now? I think... It's partly a long process. So I had a working group for nine years that was a public-private initiative called GIFPAC, mostly federal government and national level, but then also with a state of Hawaii component to it. One of the outcomes of that working group was the need for there to be a trade association so that the practitioners in the industry, the supply chains, could actually get together and make decisions together. You need things like inter-island shipping standards. You need to have some kind of, you know, common policy recommendations rather than a fight every year actually at the legislature. So we need some kind of forum for industry practitioners to get together and hash out things like, you know, do we want there to be a biofuel mandate for the state of Hawaii? So... There isn't now. And if we do... There isn't now, but there is a bill proposing one again this year. Okay. All right. And when we come back for this break, we're going to find out exactly what proposal is, what that proposal is. What kind of mandate you want. What kind of expectation do you have about the development of this part of the energy sector? We'll be right back after this short break. This is Think Tech Hawaii, Raising Public Awareness. Ted Rawson here, folks. You're a host on Where the Drone Leads, our weekly show at noon on Thursdays here on Think Tech. When we talk about drones, anything to do about drones, drones, remotely piloted aircraft, unmanned air christmas, whatever you want to call them, emerging into Hawaii's economy, educational framework and our public life. We talk about things associated with the use, the misuse, technology, engineering, legislation with local experts as well as people from across the country. Please join us noon on Thursdays and catch the latest on what's taking place in the world of drones that might affect you. Hike, we're back. This is Hawaii. You knew this. Hawaii, the state of clean energy. Sharon Moriwaki, co-chair of the Energy Policy Forum and co-host of this show. In fact, the progenitor of this show right here with us today, Carl Campania, the executive director of the relatively new, am I right about this? Yes. Bioeconomy Hawaii Trade Association that's Hibeto. H-B-E-D-O. H-B-E-D-O. Take out a television. We have small children. You prefer Minion style. And Joelle is the chief instigation officer, C-I-O. I like to refer to her as the subject matter expert. H-B-E-T-O, what not. And Joelle wanted to come back and deal with that question I posed. Exactly what kind of mandate do you want here? Exactly. So it helps to actually sort of talk about Hawaii's energy economy as it exists right now. So one of the pictures that you could bring up is one that actually shows a pie chart of the energy usage in the state of Hawaii. It's titled, there we go, Hawaii's Petroleum Use By Mode. I'll have to walk you through it. So basically what it is here is grouping together the transportation sectors are all in orange. Air transportation is actually the biggest, followed by ground transportation and then followed by marine transportation. And then the green slice is the amount of petroleum that's used in this particular year 2012 for electricity. How this pie chart is different from some of the others that you might have already had on this show is, it did a couple of things. One is, they actually included imported refined fuel into this pie chart. It's not just what's brought in as crude oil and then refined here and then consumed. There is over a third of the jet fuel consumed in the state of Hawaii is actually imported as that refined jet fuel and it's not tracked in some of the other data that D-Ved puts out. And then also the military use is usually reported as its own sector. And what I did is I worked with the Defense Logistics Agency to actually break out the military use into the air, marine and ground sectors. Did you tell them you were in the service? They know that, Jay. What's important about that pie chart is to recognize that 28% of the focus, 20% of the consumption is for electricity. We've spent the last decade focused on the Clean Energy Initiative, which I am 100% behind and have always been, but it's 28% of the overall consumption and the amount of focus, the amount of tax credits and everything that have gone towards that, which is excellent and should continue. Look at the fact that 3% of that pie chart is air transportation. Another 28% is ground transportation and then that 8% of marine transportation. When you look at that, you've got near 70% of each barrel that is imported goes towards a transportation. So we should be focusing and that's entirely what the trade organization, entirely what we're trying to advance is very interested in transportation and this is a key feature in transportation. But let's go back to the question. We should have more slides you want to talk about. The question is, what kind of mandate do you want? Part of the context is that what the Hawaii Clean Energy Initiative has been doing has been focusing on shrinking that 28% for electricity. So I think if you go to the next picture, this is what happens to a barrel of oil when it comes into Hawaii. This graphic is courtesy of the University of Karachi. They just actually had the nicest pictures. But every barrel of oil has all of these elements in it. The top ends become liquefied natural gas and then NAFTA which becomes gasoline. Lower down a little bit more, it becomes gasoline then jet fuel, then diesel fuel, then you get to lubricating oil and what the electric utilities use is that bottom, the fuel oil and then what our road construction like for real estate development uses the very bottom which is the asphalt. Every barrel of oil that comes into the state goes through this distillation column and is fractionated into these various fractions. I want to get to the question of what kind of mandate do you want from the legislature? What you want is not a mandate that's going to destabilize that system. So the problem with the mandate right now for 100% renewable electricity by 2045 for example is that it shrinks the heavy fuel oil the electricity part of that distillation column and so the refineries here have a choice to make. They need to reduce all of the products that they make they either bring in less crude oil and reduce all the products that they make in order to sell less fuel oil which means that more air transportation which means that more refined fuel product is brought in from elsewhere. So unfortunately one of the ramifications of the Hawaii Clean Energy Initiative because it's been focused on electricity only is that the state is actually importing more fossil fuel than it was before because that does not address the mandate. And exporting and the heavy fuel oil is still being consumed in the globe it's just being exported. It's an economics question. So if you go to the next picture we've actually got some data to show that. Next picture? It's coming. I feel it. So zoom out a little. So this is what the Hawaii Clean Energy Initiative has achieved. I'm sure you've talked about this on the show several times is that fossil fuel generation which is the big grey wedge is going down. So as that patrolling use has gone down Hawaii's imports of jet fuel for example have gone up and so which is the next picture? That's some data to show you. You've got another picture? Yep. Jet fuel is over a five year period which is the most recent period that D-Bed reports the Department of Business Economic Development and Tourism. Jet fuel demand. So basically the Hawaii's economy Jet fuel demand is going up overall demand is going up and imports are going up. They're both going up. So what are you going to do about this? Well what you can do about it is focusing on a more holistic set of mandates. I mean I wouldn't send a message to the legislature asking them to find something holistic. That wouldn't work. Well they can do something fairly simple like instead of having a state mandate a lot of them don't even know that Hawaii has opted into the federal renewable fuel mandate and the federal renewable fuel mandate is more holistic. It's not focused on just one sector like electricity or just one sector like ground transport. What is a holistic mandate in this context? Okay so how do you do that? I mean what I'm really getting at is how do you do that? How do you achieve a better result? How do you achieve the goals you have for the bioeconomy? What foot do you put out first? What foot do you ask? I mean you're not going to have a lot of changes federally here, you guys cannot do that even if you know the people and you still can't do that. But maybe you can have some influence in the legislature and the governor. Hopefully that will leverage you into a better position for this industry or for your trade association. But what is it that you're going to ask? Well the first thing is what Joel just said is very important that we already recognize that we have already tied into the federal mandate and what that means and make sure that we What does it mean to the military here? That's a federal agency, what does it mean? It's not about the federal agency, it's about the state tying into the federal mandate and then what that is going to mean from a holistic perspective. The state has already opted into it and the state's petroleum refiners and marketers have been complying with it for ten years. Most policy makers and even clean energy enthusiasts in the state of Hawaii don't know that because the focus has been on electricity which is on the mainland petroleum is not used for electricity generation. It's really only Alaska, Hawaii, Puerto Rico the places where you're not connected to the lower 48 states that you have petroleum used for electricity generation. But the short answer to your question is what could be asked for is there's a lot the state could do to help reduce the cost of actually producing renewable fuels that address this entire pie chart. Exactly, so what I did last year what I was able to get done last year I wrote a resolution last year that was called the Hawaii Green Fuels Initiative and that resolution was introduced by Senator Lorena Noe it passed through and was passed by the legislature Unamended. It was calling for essentially the fuels total holistic but fuels perspective or direction similar to the Clean Energy Initiative which was focused on electricity so let's take the electricity the Clean Energy Initiative and let's make it a fuels initiative so that we're addressing air, marine and ground transportation and every other aspect as well as electricity so that passed unanimously so great, so that was the first step the next step is now taking that from the resolution and starting to have bills that support that. For example for example, Senate Bill 3077 which does what? Which is what I already mentioned. It increases the overall tax credit it eliminates the sunset and creates the facility. Alright so it's a thousand ways to nip and tuck this thing into change the way the industry works. I agree if I could make one bill that did the exact same thing that the Clean Energy Initiative did but that's a huge undertaking so instead of doing one huge undertaking let's nip and tuck and get our way there. It's complex. Energy has become isn't that right Sharon? From the time we started following it's become huge and complex. This is only one area of such a complex landscape honestly with all kinds of variables and permutations to commentate. So the question I put to you and this is the last question and I'm asking you both and I'm asking you to agree with each other I think you probably do is going forward you know we have to you have to educate the public and the legislature on your slice of the pie and your bioeconomy. You have to make them exquisitely familiar exquisitely aware of the need to focus on this and be holistic about it and on change the numbers change the consumption change the importation of fuels that could be replaced by biofuel. So we're going to take a moment and we're going to make them more aware. Who wants to go first? There's camera one. That's the public the legislature is included Joel plus the governor they're all there listening waiting. What do you have to say? Thank you Jay. I think there's a couple of first you can start first we can start by settling some myths. First there isn't a competition between food and fuel it's a common myth it's kind of an imported notion from the mainland anyway. What part of the reason why we had the event on January 16th which included half a day of legislative briefings and then half a day of workshops was to illustrate all the ways that you have integrated food and fuel and energy and value added products. You can't do one without the other. There's no such thing as a pure play biofuels project. It's always part of a greater whole but and so that's the value of an integrated system. It's also the complexity of an integrated system they're harder to do and Hawaii's not necessarily the easiest place to do business and now we're trying to do something hard in a place that's hard to do. So it actually what does work well is when you have locally relevant locally informed stakeholder developed ground up projects and so that's part of the reason why we were showcasing the kinds of project I talked about earlier. Carl what would you leave if there's somebody out there trying to get a message here what message would you leave that person with? Do you want him to remember or her to remember and walk down the block thinking about? That a bio economy a fully advanced and developed bio economy in Hawaii will bring jobs will bring education opportunities will create more opportunities to keep our children here in long-term sustainable jobs Sharon it's time for you to wrap up and say goodbye. Well I really would like to thank Joelle and Carl for just starting conversation again it started as you say in 2010 with the bioenergy master plan that isn't the master plan so I look forward to seeing what happens in the legislature to have you come back to see what's next steps but I think it's really important to have a facilitator and have a champion things don't get done so fight on. Thank you Joelle. Thank you Carl it would be great to have you here hope you come back and tell us more as the legislative session unfolds. Great thank you for having us on the show Jay.