 Govna Zulim says we have two choices, war or accept repentance, terrorism. And former Speaker of the House of Representatives Dali Umar Akbar says the third force being promoted to major political parties in 2023 will not fly. This is plus politics, a dire merit and a hope. Baba Gana Zulim Govna of Zamfara State has said he is in a difficult situation. The reintegration of repentant Boko Haram members. He said the choice between to cautiously accept the insurgents. He added that accepting repentant insurgents had the risk of offending the feelings of victims, lead to rebellion, and adding that the risk of insurgents returning to ways, their ways, if they are rejected. Now he's obviously talking about being in between a rock and a hard place, but we're going to be discussing it from a security perspective. And joining us right now is Dixie Natchat. Sajie, he is a security expert. Thank you very much, Dixie, for joining us. This is my pleasure. Thank you for having me. This story obviously I've been making the news, making the rounds for a couple of days now. And the first thing that Nigerians obviously are wondering is, why do we have to even be in this situation in the first place? I would like to take your mind back to the first time when the so-called repentant Boko Haram members submitted themselves. They were holding up placards asking that Nigerians forgive them. I remember drilling one of the security persons we had here about the questions that were raised. These are people who said they do not believe in Western education, but the English and the placards were very, very, very good. And who knows exactly what the plan of these people are? Are they really repentant? And Dixie, I'm asking because the army had recruited and there had been some form of amnesty program and reintegration program for certain repentant former Boko Haram members who the army even said had, some of them had gone back to Boko Haram, taking information to these people. So why are we doing it again? Whatever happened to once bitten twice shy? Thank you very much, Merehan and nice being here. I think the Nigerian military has not learned its lessons because I am not against surrendering or some group of criminal elements, national criminals, international criminals, bringing their arms to order. Sometimes we must be very careful not to accept surrendering as a form of defeat because surrendering could be a deception in the battlefield. When your enemy overpowers you, when the bombardment are very tedious and very heavy from the Air Force wing and the military artillery and ammo bombardment are hitting hard on these terrorists, they have no option than to surrender. So for us, first of all, we need to understand the methodology in which they surrendered to the Nigerian states. Like you rightly said, these guys, they do not believe in Western education and the writings on the placards are very, very clean, loud and clear. They are very readable. I think the Nigerian government, the state of Bruno, must be very careful because when we talk about surrendering, surrendering is another deceptive methodology from the criminal wing. For example, when you look into the 48 laws of powers, law 22 tells us that we should be very careful about surrendering. Surrendering does not mean the military has won the war or taking victory. Surrendering does not mean the enemy has been defeated. Dixon, are you still... I think that your connection has frozen. But can you hear me? I can hear you. All right, go ahead. Yeah, so sometimes we must be very careful about surrendering because surrendering definitely could be deceptive. So for us to... Apologies, I think that your connection again has frozen. But I'm curious if you can hear me. A hundred of these members of the Insurgent Group have surrendered in the past months and their families. These people came with families. And one of the notable persons among these people who surrendered is one of the girls from the school that was kidnapped years ago. She returned with two children and a man who obviously is a member of, you know, the insurgents and who she referred to as her husband. Now, I mean, I know that the average person is not supposed to be asking about tactics or, you know, sudden information that the army has. But if we have had so many of these people continuously we show up and say that they're surrendering, why is it taking so long for us to... And I say us as Nigeria, the army, to find where the others are. Why is it so difficult for us to extract information from these guys to help the army to continue to win the war and have the upper hand? I think it's very difficult. We are not following the process of disarmament and surrendering. That's where the administration of justice system comes to play. That is the CGS. The administration of criminal justice begins with the police, the court and the district. Most of these guys that have surrendered, I would definitely recommend that the government must have them reprimanded because they can't just come and surrender free of charge after killing Nigeria and sending many people to the graveyard and, you know, putting the state of Nigeria at mess from the international ranking. For me, I would advise that even if they're going to surrender, they must be punished for their crime because if they're not punished, then the government of Nigeria will be satisfying criminality. And when you satisfy crime, then everyone from all Nooks and crannies will be a little confident that Nigeria is a place where you can commit crime and surrender. Surrendering can be deceptive, like I rightly said. So we must be very careful about those guys surrendering. What are their plans? If they want to strike back, they want to come back and gather more information against the state of Nigeria and strike back. So I would advise the federal government to be very, very diplomatic and the military must go all out to engage these guys from their hideouts because if we don't go all out, I would look at it as a form of friendly march because Nigerian military is too big, you know, to be heard hostage for the past 12 years by these criminal elements. Well, joining us again is Ambassador Roy Ojidibi. Ambassador Roy, you obviously are very acquainted with this story and what Governor Zuloum is talking about. Help us to paint a picture. When he says he's in a difficult situation and he makes reference to the fact that it's either they receive these people back into society or we will risk an endless war. What exactly do you think he means? Well, thank you for the opportunity and thank you for having my brother also on stage. You see, one thing that these guys are just making statements. They are making unimportant statements. Now, if we have numbers of patients that submit themselves that we are tried to be terrorists and have been in active service as terrorist groups then they are not a problem for the army anymore. The military should not be seen taking pictures with them giving them food, water and clothing. Others are just the mantis of policy. Now, the first thing to do is to hand them over to the DSF and the police and the DSF and the police would begin to separate those that were in active service those that would claim that they were forced into terrorism. There are those that would say my village was captured and I joined as a child so I don't know what I'm doing and you begin to separate all of these people and they should be incarcerated. They should be within the confines of a correctional center in Nigeria and once they are taken in like that, we are set. We are not going to do a judicial killing. We are not going to begin to torture you inhumanely but the law must set its course to start as a deterrent. All of these radicalization process that they are pampering them to re-settles in the foreign region would not be allowed. They should be seen within the confines of a correctional center as the same needs and the security agencies should penetrate them with our mode and begin to find out what rules the slave and who are those still at large because if you don't do that, you will not be able to archive penalty and if you don't archive penalty, you are not sad and likely silent to order. Okay. All right. Well, let me continue with you, Ambassador Roy. Again, back to what the governor Zulum said again, he talked about the fact that if we do not accept these insurgents, repentant insurgents, they might go back and be re-radicalized. In other words, they would join other insurgents. Now, he also says that accepting them into the society means that you are going to hurt the feelings of people who have been victims of these insurgents but I'm really wondering why the governor should be the one making this decision. Should he be the one making this decision? Should this be a civilian's decision? And I'm not saying or trying to water down the duty or the job of a governor in this regard but this is a high-level security issue. It's an insurgent. People are dying. Should the governor be the one who has to say, like you have said, we should have the DSS, the police, the army at some point will wash his hands off it but should the governor be the one deciding all of this being that this is a guerrilla warfare and these are people who have been termed as killers, terrorists. Should we be actually allowing the governor to debate this or try to decide what should happen? Okay. Well, you see, a governor of a state is the chief security officer of the state but that does not mean that in such a terrorist situation it has become a national issue and those people should be handed over directly to government security agencies that should handle processing them before the law. So I don't think that is a governor's place but you know that everything is apron towards 2023 and you should all agree with me that there must have been some covert discussions before you can have a volume of people coming out to submit themselves. They must have tried their waters. They must have discussed covertly with certain persons and trying to find a soft landing. So if the governor had a discussion, I think he should forward his discussion to any kind of soft landing towards the judicial process that will be settled. And you know, there are people that have been going on for years in Nigeria so why haven't we found alternative judicial channels for those that submit themselves party to the national assembly, party to the senate and let it be end up. It can't be now that they are submitting themselves and you are now walking towards a soft landing. Ambassador Roy, I am sorry to talk to you. I am so sorry, I apologise for talking over you but are you insinuating that all of this is a mere political gimmick because someone wants to get votes in 2023? Is this what you are implying? In every intelligence and quality practitioner in this country and global intelligence terrorism watchers, we are seeing the challenge of policy and security and we have yet been able to separate it. Okay, if you have people submitting themselves before now and those people were searching through the radicalisation process why do you need to make this a, what is the noise about for these types of people that are also submitting themselves? If you have a radicalisation process going on already each people we are speaking against it we are saying that the radicalisation process is not strong enough, it's not separating the crime from the criminals. So if you have this set of people what is the business of the government? What is the business of these media hype? Why are these people not also channeled through the existing radicalisation process? So I don't want to believe everything our politicians do because if you count the number of people that die in Nigeria every day even these criminals that are terrorists they break away and become bandit they are kidnapping in Kazuna, they are kidnapping in Hondo they are kidnapping in Polakos, Bayeta, Elugu they are saying that they are going strongly in place to stay, as we did many so what is the media hype? If it is not policy. I'm coming back to you now Dixon of course I know you want to comment on this but let me also speak on a couple of things pick on a couple of things that Governor Zulum also said he said we have to choose between an endless war or cautiously accept the surrender terrorist which is really painful and difficult for anyone that has lost loved ones difficult for all of us he said and even the military whose colleagues have died and volunteers he said so let's put in context these people let's take into consideration the soldiers the victims, the people of Zamfara whose lives have been distorted they have been discomfited some of them have lost homes they've lost family members even volunteers who have been killed whether they worked for aid, NGOs and all of that it's a quarry of people and issues let's take into consideration all of these things where do you even start to deal with this issue because you have to consider all of these people where should we start to deal with this issue and again do you agree with Ambassador Roy that this is a ploy for 2023 to make a person a politician or whoever it is to look good I think we lost Dixon if we are going to have to reintegrate these people back into society or even accept them in the first instance I forgot to raise the issue of the fact that the man who showed himself as the husband to one of the girls who returned with her kids what is going to be done as to the fact that this girl left here as a child but then returns as a married person and this man obviously is not a child so we're talking about issues of child molestation here and of course a terrorist for that matter who has made her a mother at her age so that is on one side there are people who have lost their livelihoods their lost family members their soldiers who have lost their friends in battle how do you address all of these issues and still try to win a war against insurgency with all consent let's not also forget that the president has reflected on what's happening in Afghanistan he's brought his fears to play talking about what's happening in the Sahel and what's happening in Nigeria and the fears that this should not hoping that it would be but he was afraid that if we do not deal with it it might become an Afghanistan problem so Dixon, where do we start to address this issue of all the parties concerned before we even start talking about the deterioration of the issue alright Maryam, thank you very much for having me see, sometimes we just look at this bit of insecurity in Nigeria from a discretionary perspective discretionary perspective in the sense that we don't tend to look at the Nigerian state we don't tend to look at our people who are citizens we've lost a lot of soldiers over the past few years we've lost a lot of brothers and sisters in the battlefield and these guys, Dixon and the camp just come on air to surrender their weapons who has attained their true presence who has attained the truthfulness of their surrendering because for me, I think that it is very essential that the Nigerian government must look into the administration of criminal justice system there's not many powers of the government to pardon these guys they've committed a crime against the state a crime against the federation and also an international crime so people like that must be sent to prison they must be reprimanded let me see, for one or three years they carry out their psychological evaluation for us to believe that they are truly repainted if they don't do that, the fighters, our soldiers they are more dissipated they are highly demoralized these are the guys that killed our brothers and sisters they are now being forgiven so quickly so we must be very careful not to trade on the part of demoralizing our troops for me, I don't think they are truly repainted I think it's a deceptive mode for them to go back and replant because the surrendering is not a form of defeat from either side the surrendering could be tactical and they might have a game plan going by what you just said about Afghanistan yes, the problem is worrisome to tell you that Afghanistan perhaps will be a safe haven for most of these criminal elements so it's the right time for them to tighten up our national bodies and engage this war take it as a full blown war because we're not taking it as a full blown war we're just taking this war as a discussioner war it's not a discussioner war it must be a full blown war because you can see that most of these guys they are bringing down our fighters jets bringing down our soldiers bringing down our military they've tested the integrity of our military they've tested the integrity of our defense they've tested our national powers so the Nigerian government must buckle up and seek advice from security professionals for the way to go about this reprinted or surrendering criminal elements Ambassador Roy if we were to go by what the governor has said that he's obviously in a tight place he does not know what to do and he cannot do one without the other who's to say that these people will not take advantage of the fact that oh well the government pardoned the first group they closeted them they rehabilitated them even though some of them returned who's to say that we're not going to have more people take advantage of this kill people do whatever they like and then come back and say Nigerians we're sorry and we take them in where is the place of making sure that justice is served just like Osadje said where is the place of the justice system can we even trust that that process will be free, fair and will bring justice to and some form of soul ace to those who have been victims of this endless war Boko Haram insurgents has taken over a decade and many people have died I mean the statistics I cannot get exactly right now on the top of my head but who's to say that if we go the way that the governor wants to go these people will not take advantage of it advantage of it let me tell you something you know every country has its check and balancing now for our executives the effects of our leadership is the presidency now the presidency has its check and balancing one of its check and balances is the federal constitution we have a constitution in this country and you know we have the judiciary to always be there to monitor compliance to that constitution and the judiciary has the agency to help it to arrest certain group of people even government personnel that violate the constitution so what our political system first thought to do was to intimidate and destabilize the Nigerian check and balancing institution so the judiciary became to play the senate and the left of left they became a house of promotion the other agencies they lost touch with the current dynamics of international investigation and before you know what's happening God's father is in violation distortion has just taken place NIT is the name of what is happening right now in Nigeria because if you look at the selection of agencies for communities of the judiciary to actually implement tenancy against the forces where are all the people that are being paraded for the banditry, terrorism murder even even the kidnapper Madume was arrested soldiers and policemen and balanced themselves by engaging in discourse and killing themselves the army was intimidating the police the police was arresting policemen and today the one to make it is still a quagmire is still a manate in the judicial system do you think that people don't understand right now that the check and balancing system in Nigeria has been distorted that is why the international community will be asking to the agile case outside of Nigeria because if they say put these cases before your country it will become a problem of what ethnic group do you belong to what political party do you belong to what religion do you belong to even in Islam there is division even in Christianity in Nigeria so there is division everybody is just at the best and call of a distorted presidential system so it's a major issue that we face and we hope that in the next institution of Governor who are high to be clear enough to begin to be quiet okay well because we're out of time I want to say thank you Dixie Nassajee and Ambassador Roy Ohidibi at both security experts thank you for speaking with us we appreciate it thank you very much alright thank you all for staying with us we'll take a short break when we return the Speaker of the House of Former Speaker of the House of Representative Gali Umna Naba says that the third force being promoted to ask the major political parties in the country from 2023 will be a flop, stay with us