 This is already the 8th session of the Green Post Corona Talks, organized by the Green European Foundation. This session is in partnership with the Finnish Foundation Vision and also the Flemish Think Tank. I'm Dirk Holmans, Co-President of the Green European Foundation and your host. As we learned during previous sessions, people from all over Europe are following this, which is quite amazing. And if you're following by Facebook Live, you can put your questions there. You can also use Twitter to put questions. I see them in my chat box, and so I can ask your questions to the three inspiring speakers we have today to discuss the future or the importance of the universal basic income you'll be. Because as we all know now with the COVID-19 crisis, quite some people have lost their jobs. More people unfortunately will lose their jobs, so it's crucial that we find new solutions so that the income of people is not dependent or only dependent on having a job. In order to discuss a wide range of issues connected with UB, we have three inspiring speakers today. First we have Julen Boulin, he's a UB researcher, economist and member of the Basque Parliament. Next we have Natalie Bennett, she's an UB advocate, former leader of the Green Party in English and Wales and now member of the UK House of Lords. Next we have Alvina Alamezza, she's member of the European Parliament from the Greens AFI Group. We will start with Julen to give us some insights on the more general discussion around UB in Spain and also I think this is very important on what the media reported as the UB in Spain, because in reality I think it's better to speak about the minimum living income. So Julen, I'm very happy to give you the floor as first speaker. Thank you very much, Dirk, and thank you also to the Green European Foundation and everybody who's having a look at this chat. First of all, I just wanted to say that I'm not right now a member of the Basque Parliament since February, but that doesn't matter for what I'm going to say right now. Well, as you said, Dirk, what the Spanish government has carried out is not a basic income, but a minimum state coverage income, which is called IMV in Spanish, ingreso mínimo it up. So why the government has done this? Because until now Spain didn't have a minimum national income as the rest of European countries since the competence of social assistance resides in autonomous communities and not in states like for example, Catalonia, Madrid, Basque Country, Andalusia and so on. But still it's been shown that even the best minimum income in Spain, which is the Basque one and is among the best at the European level, is not enough to earn poverty. And this is something we already know perfectly because lots of studies have shown that there are structural errors that every minimum income program contains. So the question is, once we know that minimum income programs do not end with poverty, how can we do it? And well, I think many of us agree that an unconditional basic income is a great tool for it, but not only because it ends with poverty but also because it has many other benefits that we understand that are priorities for our society. For example, giving citizens real and effective freedom, putting people in the center of public policies, moving towards a more sustainable economy with our planet or offering the dignity that was stolen from a large part of our society. And as you said also, Turk, I'm sure lots of you also did have the international press and also the Spanish press has said many, many times that Spain was going to be the first country implementing a basic income. That's not true. But I would like to ask why we think this happened? Where did most English media and some Spanish media confuse a minimum income with a basic income? And from my point of view, I would say there are at least four main reasons for this. First, because of lack of knowledge and absolute disinterest on this task. Even at least right now I think newspaper or television doesn't care about calling basic income or it's not a basic income. They wouldn't even care about calling pineapple a banana. So they just want to sell more and more and to have big shares on the TV. Second, in Spain, many, many minimum incomes have been called and still continue to be called basic income in the law itself. Therefore, there are many people who confuse those terms and that's normal because you go to your administration and you ask for a war in the law is called basic income. So for you, a basic income is basically a minimum income. Third, members of the Spanish government and members of different autonomous governments in Spain are the ones who also do it. How are we going to make citizens differentiate between those terms? If the economy minister herself on a prime time TV program when speaking about a minimum income calls it a basic income. So that's nonsense but a lot of politicians do. And finally, because in Finland launch its pilot project, everything that sounds like basic income is really, really sexy for us. Everything except the content since nobody dares to take it on its electoral program. So all in all, I just wanted to make it clear that what last Friday was just approved in Spain has been a minimum income as all the European countries have and not a basic income. And I could be out of time speaking about this minimum income because we've been studying it really carefully. But I just wanted to point out three points that could give us some information about how it will work. First, the amount of the minimum income for one person will be equal to the 62% of the poverty line in Spain to the 44% of the Spanish minimum wage. So I think this is a low quantity to be able to live with dignity in this country. Second, it's intended to cover 2.3 million people in poverty at most. In Spain, before the COVID-19 crisis, there were 10 million people at risk of poverty. So right now this minimum income will at most cover 20% of people at risk of poverty in Spain. Third, this minimum income will begin to be received at the earliest at the end of June. And there are many people, a lot of families who have been without any income since February. So if the administration doesn't collapse in its management, which I think it's also very likely, there will be many people who will be without any income for at least four months. So I think there were a lot of opportunities to face this crisis. And even though a lot of measures that this government has carried out have been really important and really social, I would like to see a braver government in this sense. For an example, I think we had the opportunity to establish an emergency basic income during this year to face the pandemic, and with which all people who have a monthly income guaranteed. We know that there is no time for a fiscal reform and to institutionalize a basic income in just two weeks. But that's not a problem because this emergency basic income could be adjusted through next year income tax declaration. So there were different opportunities we have been talking about during this month. And I think a minimum income is not the best at all. It's something we have seen. It doesn't work properly and it's something we know will leave a lot of people behind. And I think it's also very important to finish to talk about the benefits of universality, individuality and unconditionality. Because these three principles, I think, are essential to eradicate poverty. And this minimum income is not universal, no individual, no unconditional. It's given to families who have shown to the administration, ex ante, that they meet this income and with a process of labor inclusion to take. So we know that this could deepen into problems we already know such as a stigmatization of the beneficiaries, the poverty trap, administration costs, budgetary limitations, or the huge coverage errors that we know minimum income programs have. And we have already seen this minimum income in Spain will also have, as it will only cover 2.3 million out of 10 million at risk of poverty right now in Spain. Okay, Yulin, many, many thanks for this really clarification because indeed when I was reading newspaper, I was say, oh, wow, we are introducing in Spain a universal unconditional basic income. But as you explained, we are talking about the kind of minimum living income for a number of people, only 20% of the people living in poverty, unconditions for families, so not individuals, so it's a total different story. Totally. Thank you very much for this first clarification. Now, I want to give the floor to Natalie Bennett. She is, as I said, member of the UK House of Lords. And she has been advocating for many, many years is also involved in the projects of the Green European Foundation. And Natalie, I'm wondering the UK is really hit very hard by the COVID-19 crisis. Is the UB part of the political or societal discussion in your country as a potential measure? Well, I think it's worth sort of going back to before COVID-19 if we can go back that far. And actually, we were already seeing universal basic income was really rising up the political agenda. We've seen particularly the rise of what's known as the UBI Labs Network, which is actually a global network of local groups, organising to advocate for UBI, but that's particularly strong. And I think it could be said it's been led from the UK. So that was the context of a great deal of popular support and growing discussion. There is no political party except for the Green Party that advocates for it in the UK. And there's a lot of resistance in the Labour Party to it. But that was the political context. Then, of course, COVID-19 arrived. And that was another big jump in the level of debate and discussion. Because what we've seen in the UK is I think there was a lot of surprise that the government did throw a huge amount of money to people with salary furlough schemes, with schemes for the self-employed and people with their own small businesses, etc. But what became very obvious was that how people were falling through the gaps in those schemes. So, for example, if you had a small business and wanted to get support, you had to have three years of accounts. And people who were just between jobs when the lockdown started. There's no one as the new starter furlough people. They got left with no money through absolutely no fault of their own. So those kind of things have really helped to raise the whole question of community. I would say we're just starting to begin to debate it. It's still very early days, but that's very much happening. And in the UK, we are a society in many ways crying out more than most even for a universal basic income. 16 million people in the UK have less than 100 pounds of savings. People have gig economy type jobs, zero hours contracts, low minimum wages, no chance to save. And so it's a deeply insecure society. And we've been starting to see with the medical impact of COVID-19. Acknowledgement of what a risk that is in terms of if you're asking people to self isolate because they've been exposed or because they've got symptoms. And we have statutory sick pay of essentially 100 pounds a week. So, you know, it's very difficult for people to do that. Yet that's what they should do for the public health of all of us. What we've seen also a lot of debate among the universal basic income advocates about whether or not to do this. But we have actually seen put forward two separate proposals for an emergency universal basic income. Because there's an acknowledgement that as we start to come out of the lockdown period, as schemes like the furlough salary furlough scheme and the help for self employed end, more people are going to fall through the cracks through absolutely no fault of their own. And so we've got these two proposals and I think the links to information about both of those are going up in the in the Facebook chat. One from the citizens income trust long term advocate and another from the UBI labs network themselves. And both of those are actually come at about similar levels and suggest maybe two months of around about 1000 pounds. And each month going to to every individual to be recovered if their income is decent from the tax system later. Now, there was a lot of debate about whether an emergency basic income was a good idea or not, you know, just doing something temporarily and short. There will inevitably be some problems with it. Will people just see this as emergency thing? We're going to say this is something that should be there a whole time. But I think there's an opportunity to really broaden the discussion get people talking about that get people thinking about this. And there's also a very large practical point because one of the problems in the United Kingdom is that the government really has no record of citizens doesn't know where citizens are. We don't have ID cards. There's the million more than a million people who don't have a bank account. So one of the practical problems and when we were when COVID-19 really first struck, there was talk about advocating an immediate universal basic income. But the problem is the practical reality of how you actually get it to people is not simple or easy to solve. And really you've got to acknowledge that you have to just do the best you can and iron out the problems as and when they arise. So I think now we have a huge moment of opportunity for UBI in the UK in many ways where we're a perfect society to introduce it because we are a society in a very bad place. I mean, we've seen just overnight some reports coming out talking about how there's been huge efforts going into trying to help children from disadvantaged backgrounds to do better at school. We have a very large gap in the attainment levels of pupils from very disadvantaged backgrounds compared to those from wealthier backgrounds. And measures suggest essentially any of the progress that's been made in that has been wiped out. And so there's the question of saying we just cannot allow these levels of inequality to continue these levels of poverty, these levels of desperate insecurity, combined with the medical impact of we have to allow people to keep themselves at home if they need to do that. So it's a time of real possibility, but British politics is I think as anyone who perhaps saw yesterday the 1.2 kilometre long queue of MPs socially distancing voting, which talk about 40 to 50 minutes each time. We have a real problem with British politics being in a state of considerable chaos and confusion and that's seen with COVID-19 as many other things. So, we're not going to see the government abandoning conditionality. They're trying to screw down even harder on conditionality. I was in a debate in the house yesterday. We have the BBC is funded through a license fee and that has been free to over 75s. And that's now about to disappear except for people who are on pension credit. But again, there's millions or 1.2 million pensioners who don't claim the pension credit they're entitled to the problem of conditionality again appearing that if you have something people have to offer for all people won't get it. So the arguments for a payment that ensures nobody is left without a penny in their pocket. They're really very strong, but the political situation at the moment is probably best described as very confused and very chaotic. But what we're also seeing is a really encouraging sign is that there's a real push towards local democracy. We've had some trial citizens assembly. We've had a climate citizens assembly. And so there is an upswell of public engagement in politics determination to take control in politics. And that with the UBI labs network is part of a direction of travel that is hopeful, very hopeful. And what we can all do as campaigners is make sure that we get the discussion out there. We get real engagement, not just with the idea of the universal basic income, but an understanding of what's wrong with conditionality and how conditionality of benefits. People miss out, people fall through the cracks. People cliff edges as when you hit with a benefits trap, when you earn just a little bit too much money and you lose a great deal. All those things that UBI takes away, there is real opportunities to spread that story in the UK at the moment. And one of the other things also I think is the gender aspect of UBI, which is worth highlighting and that COVID-19 has helped to highlight. This stats here and indeed certainly I've seen in other countries also that the burden particularly of childcare in when the schools have been closed has fallen overwhelmingly on women. And so there is a renewed focus on how so many people contribute to our society in ways that are not waged labour, but that are not recognised. And the demands that they make those contributions does real damage to their financial and personal wellbeing. And the ways in which UBI helps to address that is something that again we've got a real political opportunity to address. So I think I'll leave it there and I look forward to the questions. Okay, Natalie. Thank you very much for informing us on the situation in the UK and also telling me I was still muted. Now we turn to the third speaker, Alvina Alamezza. Alvina, you are a member of the European Parliament, so it means we are quite interested in your views from the EU level on the discussion on the UBI and also what are the possibilities for let's say EU-wide UBI trials. But also of course we are very much interested on what came out of the UBI trails in Finland. I heard there are new additional findings published, so maybe first you could inform us on the new findings on the UBI trails in your country. Yes, thank you so much. First the classical question, can you hear me? Yeah. Perfect, okay. So thank you all for very interesting introductions before me. And so I am a member of parliament but also Finnish politician. And thus I have very closely followed the discussion of the universal basic income here in my home country but also in Brussels. Basically what I found interesting is that there was this universal basic income trial here in Finland in 2017 to 2018. And this trial was implemented during the last governmental period. And the government itself was more of a right-wing government and they did not have basic support for UBI but it was part of a trial to see how we could reform our social security system. Because in Finland the current system also is that everybody is basically guaranteed universal income. But it's not a basic income in that sense that when you apply for the income you get it. But it's not automatically and universal in that way. That's naturally kind of explained what's the idea of universal basic income. And the last government then made this trial only to those people who were already unemployed. Most of them were unemployed for a long term. It was a small sample size of 2000 people and the age groups were 25 to 58 year old people. So what we see here from the green perspective is of course that the trial had many problems. In the beginning it was too small. It was not comprehensive to all the different age groups because you can see that for example for young people the universal basic income might have even more benefits than to older people etc. So we found that there was problems with the trial. But nevertheless the trial actually was very positive. And it was sometimes reported in the news that it didn't make much difference in employment for example. And this is true. There was only a small correlation that there would be less unemployment with the universal basic income. So there was not such a vast increase of employment. But then the more interesting finding is that people with basic income felt mentally and physically a lot better and healthier than the people with other benefits. And here we have the interesting gist that this actually provides many other economic opportunities and it actually is beneficial economically for the government also from these ways also. Not only unemployment or decreasing unemployment but also by increasing the wellbeing you can of course cut different costs in the social sector. So in the Finnish experiment what we found in the research was that people experienced less stress, depression and loneliness. They felt more secure about their own economic situation and they felt more trust towards other people, public institutions and society. Also they were a lot more optimistic about their own future. And here we can see that we would need this kind of a trial also for those young people in Finland and different groups of people because we see that these kind of influences are huge for their future also and how people can build their own life. I very much agree with the point that Natalie made that it's also a gender question, it's a feminist question in many ways and I don't talk only about women here but people who are in different minorities or people who have mental health issues or people who do voluntary work and are caregivers in their family for example. All these kind of situations are a lot easier when you get the universal basic income. So I think it's a good equalizer in that sense. And also what it does is that it makes it possible for people to build a society in different ways that they enjoy and also to educate themselves. This has to have positive income compared to the other forms of social security. And the last point I wanted to raise is that one of the most important things in universal basic income is mental health. We have very strong evidence of the mental health impacts, positive mental health impacts what I also referred to before and in Finland the mental health problems annually cost the society 11 billion euros a year. This is rather similar to other societies and in European Union level the cost for GDP is 4% annually for untreated mental health problems. So if the universal basic income is one way to decrease the mental health issues that also brings a big economical argument for universal basic income. And these findings are true all across Europe. Also there was an interesting research from the European Agency for Safety and Health Health at Work and they stated that up to half of the work days that are lost are lost to the stress and mental issues. So in many, many ways we could make the society better and increase the well-being with this kind of social security reform. This is what I find interesting. It's not only about unemployment per se, but it's also about mental health well-being and other values that we have in the society and at the same time it brings a lot of economic benefits for the states and society. Okay, thank you for this explanation on the Finnish trial. Maybe you could also maybe inform us what's the discussion on the EU level. Do you see a possibility for an EUI QB trial? What's there at stake at the moment? Definitely. Definitely I see a possibility and I hope there is a possibility for this and that is also something that I have been trying to now push as a new MAP. There was a poll actually that was conducted a research in March this year and according to this one 71 per cent of Europeans support the introduction of universal basic income. So 71 per cent of Europeans had a huge number and one explanative point to this is the corona crisis which also was referred to from the previous speakers. The coronavirus crisis has shown the vulnerability of our social security systems and people. So I believe that this crisis has had an impact on the fact that people are now a lot more supportive of the universal basic income and many social safety nets and mechanisms that we have now have not been helpful enough for people in their economic hardship at the moment. So especially I think that universal basic income in the European level would be beneficial for the underemployed, self-employed, entrepreneurs, students people who don't have as much economic security and stability. And as I said also the mental health, it's not the Finnish problem but it's a European-wide problem and this can be one research-based solution to solve this problem. In the European Greens there is already I believe a large amount of people who are ready for a more comprehensive and even EU-wide universal basic income trials but there is no certain idea in the Greens for example that there should be this model for social security or this UBI but I believe that it's more about openness to search for new potential and more possibilities and I believe that the research and trial in different EU states funded by EU would be very interesting in terms of basic human rights for income and mental health and well-being. So here we need these kind of trials as all across Europe these societies have changed, the working life has changed and employment has become more precarious but the society has not changed after this in terms of the social safety networks so those systems have to be reformed to match the current challenges I think. And actually in EU there is also a European-wide citizens initiative that is going to be launched at the 25th of September this year so there is the goal to gather one million signatures for this universal basic income EU-wide implementation and I hope that this initiative will get people to talk more about UBI and have discussions on this and I very much support this initiative and good way to start is of course the EU-wide trials and research and so yes I believe that there is possibility and as Natalie also said I believe there is momentum in different countries because of the current coronavirus situation and people have understood that we need reforms. Okay, thank you very much. Meanwhile the first questions are popping up in my chat box so we have a first question, a question for clarification for Julian the risk of poverty broke less than 60% of the minimum income. Could you explain this a little bit? Yeah, it's the risk of poverty in statistical numbers what the European Union takes as risk of poverty so in Spain that would be around 739 euros per month more or less. So your income has to be less if you want to apply for this minimum income scheme? No, I was saying that risk of poverty in Spain right now there are like 10 million people in the risk of poverty this income will be given or will have a coverage of approximately 2.3 million people so it's like a 20% of people at risk of poverty this income will be equal to 462 euros for one person 462? Yeah, that's it. So you have to have less than 452, 10 euros less than the amount in order to be able to access if you are less than that it's on the law that you are vulnerable so you can access to this minimum income so as you see it has nothing to do with basic income. Okay, thank you very much for this clarification we have a second question for Alvina somebody's writing Scottish Greens were considering proposing an amendment to the EGP Corona Recovery Plan supporting a European Universal Basic Income rather than minimum citizens income based in different national rates would there be support from other Green Parties in Europe to include basic income in the Corona Recovery Plan? Thank you for the good question well personally I do hope of course that there would be willingness from other parties to include it also and I believe that in the member states as we mentioned many states and many countries are already willing to implement and try this and I believe that there is differences of course related to how the societies currently are and how they function and what kind of problems the politicians see in Universal Basic Income what kind of threats and possibilities for us in Finland maybe the reason that our experiment and the basic income has some potential is that we have already had the social security system in which everybody gets this public social security if they need it but then Universal Basic Income would be then the modern reform because it would decrease the bureaucracy a lot that is related now to the social security system because everybody would easily get the social security and also something we know from research previously from Finland also is that people miss out of the income that they would be entitled to because when they have to apply then it's not accessible to many people anymore and not accessible maybe in some difficult life situations so that is actually a major problem we have identified in Finland as well that there is actually under use of the social security benefits and the basic income would be one solution to this so what I think is that we need more countries and decision makers, politicians to discuss these possibilities and to identify what are the challenges that there are currently in your country and how could social security reforms solve them in some places I understand that the relevant next step would be for example a minimum income in Finland we already have kind of such a system because we have a social security system but also we have legislation on how much the companies have to pay for people and such but I believe that in many countries the starting points are different so of course the implementation then is related to that but to see what kind of challenges are there out there and see if the universal basic income would address some of them is very beneficial and in Finland that is the case that we see that most of the challenges the universal basic income would actually answer really well to them Okay, thanks Natalie you've been active in the Transnational Project and UBEI to be I from the Green European Foundation maybe you can also inform us about what came out of these projects what are proposals or results which can also be related to the current discussion Yes certainly, just to pick up on what Alvina was saying just sort of as a point of information that people may be interested in Scotland has very much been the leading part of the UK in this area and a group called the Royal Society of Arts a very long established NGO has been doing a lot of work on setting up trials in Scotland and in fact the First Minister of Scotland Nicola Sturgeon has actually told the Prime Minister that she wants to see a universal basic income in Scotland so it's the most advanced area there and the project I mean I would point people and perhaps someone can put a link in the Facebook we produced a series of reports a report that contains a wide range of European perspectives and one of the things I was just reflecting as Alvina was talking was we started a study tour to Finland and that was the amount of effort required the cost of the bureaucracy we were very struck because we as visitors to Finland you think of Finland no Finland has possibly one of the best welfare systems in Europe but talking to people, social workers who worked with people with drug and alcohol and mental health issues they were saying they still spent about 70% of their time trying to make sure their clients got the money they were entitled to and we were talking about how much resources that would potentially free up for them to actually do their work helping people tackle their problems rather than just helping them survive and get enough money to eat so I think what we found in that study looking across Europe I'd very much echo what Alvina said that people start from very different places there are very different societies I would just say that I'm confident the Green Party of England and Wales coming back to look at the question as basic question will certainly back that in the recovery plan I think the idea of running trials one of the things that came out of the studies was there's trials that are run so that a government can say they've done something and there are trials that are done with the intention of actually working out how you set something up and make it work and one of the things we need to very much make sure we're promoting trials but promoting trials as being a way towards actual full implementation rather than something that lets people say oh we've done that that's it okay then of course not the original question but still I think fundamental one is how could you be defended either on the national level or the European level so who wants to respond to that maybe Julien you can start how could it be funded yeah how to finance alright sometimes people say finances of basic income is a problem but I really don't think it's a problem because we know that there is enough wealth and the only question is how we distribute that wealth so basic income would only be a rate distribution of wealth for example during this pandemic in Spain we have spent more than 200,000 euros an annual basic income would have a net cost which is less than 20% of those resources so I think financing is just a political will and it has just to be made a fiscal reform and there's no problem about that because we know there is enough money for that and for example we were speaking also about European level minimum income and so on our vice president also did with some minister of Italy and Portugal a proposal of a European minimum income and I think that could be a step forward but I don't think that would take us never to a basic income because I think conditionality will never take us to a conditionality so I think a better proposal for that could be starting from a low quantity let's say Euro dividend for all European citizens and that I think it could help to fight against also a low skepticism while strengthening our sense of belonging to the European Union and this could be financed in many ways by a European VAT, a European corporative tax a European carbon tax or financial transaction tax there are many ways and its benefits I think would be great for this Euro dividend will provide a third redistribution mechanism and it could make sure that all Europeans equally benefit from the wealth generated by the European integration and I would like to comment on that first of all it would improve the condition of the worst of European citizens who would access of course complementary European and conditional basic income second it would provide a mechanism of solidarity in the form of transition fiscal transfer which are I think necessary for the Eurozone at this moment where a big difference between member states and third this could help also to a significant reduction of the push factors for immigration within the EU avoiding the so negative the negative effect of losing human capital in some countries as its happening right now and finally last but not least I think this would as I said certainly have a beneficial effect on the European Union's legitimacy and popular support right now in next step could be a European level basic income it's a low amount of basic income that it could be top up by member states and later on by the European Union okay thanks Alvina Natalie you want to also comment on this proposal for European dividends yes I will I'm I'm going to leave the European questions since sadly I'm talking to you from Europe but not from within the European Union tragically we look at the broader philosophical point the Green Party of England and Wales has had two two elections with two different sets of proposals of how to fund it the first one in 2015 was very much focused on wealth taxes and the rich in a way that we totally don't in the UK and multinational companies now I think if we think about that there's a way of looking at universal basic income as a way of distributing the social capital the capital that history created that all of our ancestors built structures created wealth in society sometimes through colonialism stole wealth but nonetheless the wealth is here now and so what we're doing is sharing out the resource that's available to everybody and if we think about one of my favourite lines on this is that if you put Bill Gates on a desert island he wouldn't make a penny rich individuals and companies benefit from all the infrastructure that society's created and what you're doing is sharing that out through the payment of universal basic income what we did in 2019 was we changed the focus somewhat and this was in some ways a result of the Gilles Jeune the yellow jacket protesters in France and we saw with them a great deal of anger that relatively poor people felt they were being made with carbon taxes to pay while France was actually cutting taxes on the wealthy and so we looked at saying here's a carbon tax and the money goes to everybody through UBI and that creates a very clear link between what we have to do on the environment with social justice and so I think that's another useful way of looking at it but ultimately of course the final thing to say is that COVID-19 as we saw with the financial crash when they want to bail out the banks when they want to bail out the economy very large sums of money are found very quickly they can be found that can be done okay thanks Alvina you want to comment on this point Yes I think those are very relevant arguments made and from the European Union perspective I do feel that this would be a good thing to use European resources for both in the level of the nation states but also I believe there should be discussion on how can we use the corona survival packages in this way that we can support people's basic income also and in general many people are quite strict about the competencies of you and say that this is not something that you should cover and of course I'm also very much in favour of subsidiarity principle and deciding about many things where they are close to the people but then I think that well-being and mental health and income are also human rights questions especially during a crisis time and they have been left to a little bit of small attention in the EU so I really hope that we could also fund projects like this and generally I hope that there would be more fairness and justice in funding corona crisis after maths right now many people have lost their jobs and lost their income and don't get that much social security and at the same time there is a problem of unequal taxation for example in the European Union level so many of the major corporations, businesses and owners are paying very little taxis so I think that we must look into questions of fairness and justice in the tax systems and in what kind of project we fund Okay thanks I'm we move on to the next question and I'm delighted that we have a question from someone from Egypt but it is not an easy question so the question is it is great to hear discussion about possible solutions to the economic impact that COVID-19 will have in European countries but as we know countries outside of Europe and with less resources will also be hit very hard by this crisis and this can potentially cause instability how do we make sure there is attention paid as well would you have any suggestions on how so to rephrase the question is the UB something or let's say relatively richer countries in Europe and how can this be implemented in countries in Africa so not the easiest question but maybe some thoughts on it Natalie please and then Julian Thank you very much for the question and it's great that you're on this call I mean I think UBI I'm usually talking about it in a global north context fairly wealthy countries because that's where I operate that's where I am a politician but I think UBI is potentially enormously exciting in the global south because what you can potentially do is relatively lower levels of money can make a huge difference to people's lives and so we have seen trials done in India, trials done in Africa where you even in Egypt I'm sure would need more money than this but even giving people a dollar or two a day can really make a difference to people's lives and people are able to save some of that and pull it and make differences to their communities so I think there is a huge argument for saying that the global north countries that have built a lot of their wealth on exploitation on colonialism and continue multinational companies who have very corrupt relationship with foreign governments with global south governments there is a real argument for saying there should be a scheme to fund ultimately a global UBI in terms of in the context of COVID I've been repeating the phrase often no one is safe until everyone is safe, whatever the virus is on the loose we have to be worried about the safety of everybody and we also have to of course be worried about the economic security of everybody and in fact I was on a call this morning about the situation with Hong Kong and was listening to Lord Chris Patton, the last governor of Hong Kong and he is a right-wing politician, not perhaps a very typical right-wing politician but nonetheless a right-wing politician and he was very much stressing the urgency in the context of COVID and many other human rights threats as well that we have to talk about working together focusing on international cooperation the world might not look very fertile or optimistic for that at the moment but we essentially have to keep trying to look at a cooperative international approach to the problems that are critical for all of us. Okay, thanks. Julian, you also want to discuss this question? I wanted to say, well, as I said some things about it about other countries are also doing pilots and so on on basic income and I think universal basic income could give or could have even better benefits in countries that are not as rich as the European countries for example in Mexico there's a big debate on basic income right now. Why? They are seeing that a lot of people are moving to the US and in consequence they're losing human capital in the country. A lot of young people moving to the US and well, not doing research not having enough doctors and so on for Mexico because they're living to the US in order to seek opportunities. So why are they living? Why is this happening? Because people normally don't leave their home and they're living because those people don't have the material existence and enough opportunities in their countries in Mexico. So they're living to the US. So basic income could be a tool for giving those people and guaranteeing those people the material existence giving those people opportunities to reside to rest in their country and not living to other country. That's why I think that there is a big opportunity in let's say not as rich countries as European countries like North African countries like some Central American countries and so on in order to retain their human capital and to prosper as a nation. Okay, thanks. I also briefly comment on this. Yes, it's a really interesting question and comments. I just want to point out that right now there is a major human rights crisis going on in the United States with Black Lives Matter movement that is very important right now to support those victims of police brutality and there is a lot of riots and also a bigger coronavirus crisis than in many places around the world. So I just wanted to point out as an example that basically United States for example would very much benefit from a more social security system and more equal healthcare access because those kind of things are also among those that bring on protests and problems and I believe that all kinds of countries, they might say that our country has the best system and this is very stable but then when push comes to show if there is no equality then we have this kind of a crisis situation and I believe that over the world UBI might be interesting concept. Of course I understand that I'm talking from the welfare state perspective but in the north but I'm a full supporter of that. But I also feel that we must here take into account the colonialism past that we have in Europe and in other countries and basically that we cannot anticipate that all of the countries have the money to themselves provide this to all citizens right now. But I do think that the income and the well-being of people should be even more in the centre of international cooperation and development cooperation. So there is also potential for us to see if these kind of projects would be responsible and I think it's good for EU to push for these kind of projects. Okay, thank you and this hour has gone so fast and we're almost finishing so I would invite the three speakers if they want to make a last suggestion of remark. This is the time Natalie you want to have a finishing say. Well just very briefly I guess reflecting on what Alvina said what's happening in the United States of America and what the world looks like one of the things that's really encumbered on us as people who are looking towards called it progressive, called it green, called it what you like towards the possibility of building a better future presenting solutions being hopeful saying this can be done, we can change things and one of the things that COVID-19 has demonstrated is very much that change can happen very quickly and in fact that's my theory of political change is that it happens in big jumps it doesn't happen slowly and gradually so the last change certainly UK or US perspective was the rise of Margaret Faction and Ronald Reagan we've had 40 years of neoliberalism we're going to we're now in the middle of creating whatever comes next and I think it's crucial for us to say that universal basic income doesn't solve all the problems by any means this is a necessary precondition for a society that lives within the physical limits of this fragile planet while also ensuring that everybody has a decent secure life okay thank you Julian, your final suggestion I would like to compliment what Natalie said as she already did great and just two things well I think that in the public opinion lies one of the greatest potentialities basic income and it happens that the more it's known the more it's understood and the more it's like basic income so I think we have to do a lot of pedagogy and in public opinion we have to explain and explain what basic income is and second I think we have to understand that employment should not be the key for subsistence we are going to a future in which there is not going to be employment for everybody therefore we have to be able to guarantee the material existence of all regardless of employment and move towards a further distribution of employment okay thank you and last but not least Alvina your last conclusion or propositions what would that be thank you for the great directing of this discussion thank you Julian and thank you Natalie for these good closing remarks and I would just say that I hope that we can start seeing basic income and income in general as a human right and see the benefits that secure income and equality have for the whole society so that is something that I hope that we can push for and I hope that people can be more demanding of their politicians to show these kind of new solutions to our acute problems and I very much hope that we can all push good trials quality trials of universal basic income and implementation of more universal basic income like models if not going directly to the deep end at the first instance and also I really wish a lot of support for the citizen initiative that is coming on September so there is inspirations happening and I hope that we can grasp this wind of change as Natalie kind of mentioned so thank you all for a fruitful discussion also thanks for this final conclusion and I'm not going to try to draw an overall conclusion but I think it's clear and of course Covid has really reinforced this a lot is that we are living in a society with a lot of sources of insecurity also having a job nowadays is not a guarantee anymore to have a decent income so really finding new innovative ways of guaranteeing people an income basic form of security without having a job I think a full time job is one of the key elements of let's call it a social or maybe a social ecological system of security of the coming decades I want to thank all three speakers it was very interesting again having speakers from different countries, different political levels it's really enriching the debate I want to thank you all the audience if you appreciate it there is a link in the chat where you can see if you want to make a donation this allows us to organize even more such green post-corona talks and last but not least next week we have our 9th session it will be about the future of Europe with the philosopher Strako Rovat and the French MEP Marie Toussaint so thank you all for watching and hopefully see you next week thank you, bye bye bye ok we're not live anymore great