 Good afternoon, everybody. We are taking up testimony on H273 today, which is an after-lady to promoting racial and social equity and land access of property ownership. And we're continuing to take testimony. These are folks that were suggested to us not just through seating power, but also through testimony that we've taken with respect to perhaps parallels to existing legislation like the Working Lands Initiative. But we also had some testimony that I'll ask Nick to address specifically. But I just wanna welcome Beverly Little Thunder, who is here today, not in your role for the Commission on Native American Affairs, but as your role in seating power and your group of Kunzakea Tomokoche. Just a short here from Duxbury that are full disclosure. I'll just say, I only know Jess through the alchemist where she works, where my wife works for the Alchemist Foundation. But I do not know Jess through her work here that she's gonna testify today. And apparently Barbara Murphy is her one degree of separation, no, it's entwined. So in the case of a small family, welcome everybody. So Mary Howard, can you start us off? I will, thank you, Mr. Chair. I am representative Mary Howard. I represent the Southwest portion of Rutland City, District 53. And I'm sorry, I'm not there in person, but thank you for coming. Good afternoon, welcome everyone. I am representative Chip Troiano. I represent Cargook, Standard, and Walden in the Northeast Kingdom. And I'm the vice chair of this committee, welcome. Representative Matt Byrong from Virginia's representing municipalities in Northwest Addison County. Representative Lisa Hango, Franklin V, Richford Berkshire, Franklin and Highgate on the Norther's border with Canada. Tiff Gloomling representing the South End of Burlington. John Colackey from South Burlington. And for Nick, I'm Raindropstad at the barn with your daughter. John Joe Parsons, I represent Newbury, Topsam and Gropin. Hi, John Blasek and I represent Milton. Hi, I'm Tommy Walts, I represent Berry City. Representative Barbara Murphy, I serve Fairfax and District Franklin too. And representative Tom Stevens from Waterbury representing Waterbury, Baltic, Huntington and Beale Score. So Nick, we have you leading off. And one of the things that we wanted to talk about, I mean, I imagine you have some prepared remarks, but the focus of our questions may end up being, we did take testimony about how Vermont Land Trust works with, in particular, works with the Abenaki provide access to their land. So I just want to learn more, definitely want to learn more about that and how that's gonna, how that may apply to, and not just Abenaki, of course, but to the indigenous groups across the state and how that applies to this particular bill. But so welcome. Yeah, Mr. Chair, thank you so much. It's good to be with everybody. I just want to check and make sure you can hear me okay. I'm in a new setup for me, so coming through well. And I'll just start by saying, Antoine is also a very good friend of mine and we're reconnecting via Zoom after a long, long period. So Antoine, it's great to see you too. And Mr. Chair, it's really great to be in here and have a chance to speak with you all today. I think I'll just say to start off, the Vermont Land Trust is extremely supportive of this bill. It's long overdue, and it's a really important step forward towards equity and justice in our state. The Vermont Land Trust has worked to conserve hundreds of thousands of acres in Vermont, about 11% of the land in Vermont overall. And a very small portion of that land, it was conserved with the participation of or is now stewarded in the sense of landowning by owners or stewards who are people from historically marginalized communities, black people, indigenous people and other people of color. And it's a really important thing that we work together to change that and really make enduring strides forward as a state around this set of issues. For all the reasons that I think you've probably heard testimony on at length over the course of your hearing testimony around this bill, and I'm sure the other speakers today are going to point to. But land, I mean, to sum it up, land access is a human right and it hasn't been equally apportioned in this state. And we can take a step to recognize that. And then I think this bill is a really important way for us to do something about it, to really take action. So we're very much in favor and support of the bill. And I think just I'll say to you, there's great infrastructure and support out there, I think to help to facilitate this funding getting out and also leveraging other funding sources that are available so that we can make a bigger impact. The Vermont Housing Conservation Board, I think is really committed around this set of issues and could be a great coordinating partner if this board were to be established in this funding were to get allocated, which we sincerely hope that it will. And also the Vermont Land Trust has been the recipient of funds over the last year dedicated to BIPOC land access and land sovereignty. And there's a real expectation and hope that that funding will be leveraged many times over to create broader social change and equity. And ultimately that's not something that philanthropic sources can do on their own. So I think it's a great step to be moving us towards some support and some action by the state in this regard. And I'll say too, I think it's $10 million in some ways sounds like a lot of money. I think it's, in many ways, we should consider this a really important and small first step and one that I hope will grow over time and that will be coming back to this committee and others to advocate for, hopefully, if this bill succeeds. But I know representatives seems that you really asked me to come in and talk about the land access work that we've done with the event keys. So I can move into talking specifically about that. It's been a really exciting piece of work. And I'll just say, we know that we're not doing it exactly right or have it all figured out by any stretch. But there are some things about the approach that we're taking that I'm really excited about and I think are yielding some really good results. And so I just wanted to take a few moments to highlight those. And then I'm happy to just have a conversation with you all about it, answer the questions that you might have. It's the first, I think, really key point is that rather than sitting in the offices of the Vermont Land Trust, which are the stone's throw from the legislature in my pillar, and trying to imagine what we think a good land access provision might look like, we engage really deeply in conversations with members of the different bands of the Abeneke here in Vermont, and also with unaffiliated Indigenous communities and community members to really talk about what are some of the barriers to land access that are most critical to address and how can a land access provision on Vermont Land Trust owned lands begin to address that. So it's really at the start, a project of communication dialogue where we work together to shape a provision that is most going to meet the needs. And I'm really excited and proud of the fact that we started with the approach in that way. The second piece that I think was really valuable about how we ended up, how we approached this, the process of it, is that we really made no attempt to put any kind of standard out there or definition out there about who qualifies to consider themselves Indigenous in terms of the access rights that are available on VLT lands. We just made an affirmative statement and we can provide a copy of that land access policy. I'd like to provide a copy of it to you to follow on my testimony. But the provision basically states that we're recognizing that this land is historically part of Indakina and has been stewarded by Indigenous people from time immemorial and that there's a history of exclusion and marginalization on that land that needs to be addressed. And so therefore we're creating this broad access right for members of the Indigenous communities to gather medicine on properties that are owned by their VLT land trusts to gather for ceremony, to walk those lands, to hunt on those lands. And there's a few other activities that it covers. But the basic tenor of it is to say these lands are yours to access. And we recognize your claim. And that claim is going to be honored permanently on land that's owned by the Vermont land trust. And then we list off a particular set of properties that are actually the properties that we own. This can be confusing for people and I'll just put it out there now that of that 11% of the state of Vermont that we have some relationship with the majority of that, the vast majority of that is conservation easements where we're holding the development rights, we've taken the development rights on that land through conservation restrictions. That's not what this policy applies to. It applies to the smaller set of lands. It's about 30,000 acres and Vermont land trust is the third or fourth largest private land owner in Vermont. But it's a much smaller number of acres, it's a much smaller amount of land than the close to 700,000 acres that's the total conservation portfolio. I will say as our last sort of opening piece is that the establishment of that policy has been really well received by the bands of the Abenaki, by our partners. And I just wanna say a little. Hi, Peter. And it's led to really great conversations with some private land owners as well who wanna follow suit, seen that affirmative right put in place and are interested in putting something similar in place on their lands. So we expect and we'll facilitate conversations that will support the different bands and establishing affirmative access rights with other private landowners who have conserved land over the years to come. All of that work I think, again, it's just a step in terms of where we need to go. But these are pieces of work that we've undertaken in the last year and a half that have really, yielded something substantive and positive that we're really excited about. So Nick, in terms of identifying land, we heard from Rich Holschu last week who talked about being able to buy, VLT I believe was able to buy the land, the three quarters of an acre around the Petroglyphs or some of the Petroglyphs in Southern Vermont. And just wondering if you could spend a few minutes just talking about what the process is when it comes to buying land. So for instance, in H273, there is a core value expressed that this group would buy or help people buy land or there's a group that's mentioned that says that we'll buy land in every town. My impression of VLT is always that it's been very reactive in the past where land may become available and then VLT might work with local folks to help facilitate the purchase and protection of that land. In a case like this, it almost sounds more proactive in H273, does that? I mean, and so how would a group go about finding land that was that, is it just gonna be an open market search or is it somebody says, I have this land available, I'd love to sell it, much like what just happened in the Elmore area where hundreds of acres were just transferred. Yeah, it's a great question. I think that I always like to say responsive rather than reactive just because reactive has a negative connotation to it. But I think that in a lot of ways you're right that the work of the Vermont Land Trust begins when some entity or stakeholder comes to us and says we have a desire around a conservation of our land related outcome, will you work with us? And that is what happened in the case of the Elm New and our great partner Rich and the project there that ultimately led to the purchase and the holding for now, the Petroglyph site that we're doing on behalf of the Elm New. In every case with the events of the Abeneke we're working on land, specific land access projects of different kinds right now that have been oftentimes have been identified by members of the band as being significant in a number of different ways. There are also sites, we're using state archaeological data and other resources so that when potential conservation projects come our way when somebody's interested in donating a conservation easement or donating a piece of land we are doing some screening to say, is this possibly a site of historical significance specific historical significance to the Abeneke and when that happens, when that comes up we're then engaging with the Abeneke around what a land sovereignty or conservation outcome could be. So I think it's become more proactive in the sense that I think we're a lot more attuned to and aware of the need to think through the lens of historic harms and indigenous ownership and sovereignty of this land and then thinking about where are the right moments where that comes together and could lead to partnership with one of the bands or another affiliated group. In terms of the idea that is stated in the bill around safe space and a place in every town I think what that's referring to is the every town project which Kenya literally may have been in to speak with you already and we can't be supportive enough of the work that every town is doing. They're affiliated with the Nepho Clan Trust a great partner of ours and I do think that there are opportunities and needs to create safe space for historically marginalized communities in a bunch of different ways in every corner of Vermont. And I think we have a mental model that says that that can't be true because maybe because it's historically been such a small percentage of the population or there are places where that's not relevant and I just fundamentally disagree and I think that there's a lot of energy around this idea that safety and access is something that needs to happen everywhere and every town I think is just doing really important and good work to elevate that and to create projects that represent that and we're actively working with Nephoc in every town on several projects right now too. Can you, and I'm gonna ask this of all of our witnesses today to provide us with that definition of safe space when it comes to what we're talking about here. I mean, I can think of, I have a definition of what safe space may be for me, but can you, and again, I'm gonna ask everybody I'll ask everybody the same question because I think it's important when we talk about the desire for these places to be developed over time, not developed but found and created. Yeah, next. Yeah, that's a question that makes me very uncomfortable to try to answer on behalf of other people because I've never felt that sense of that lack of safety in a white community in Vermont. It's not my experience. I do think that's a really important discussion and that there are leaders out there who are very prepared to discuss that at length and to come up with some really good proposals about how we define it. I do think the establishment of this fund would be a really important step towards creating those spaces. And that's something I really strongly support. Nick, I haven't a hard time understanding what the it is with the agreement with the different bands. Sure. Because I think that that's germane to the bill as well. I know I heard you talk about this at the beginning of your process and today it's really lovely to see a year later where it's gone. But what is the agreement? Yeah, I mean, I think that we don't have formal MOUs with any of the bands around a broader partnership at this point. And that might be something that we work towards, something that's written down. I think really what we have at this point is relationship and a set of activities that we've done together, a set of projects that we've worked on together. And I like to think, I believe we're working towards in good faith, a much deeper level of trust between the Vermont Land Trust and members of the bands so that we can be effective partners together. Then the it that comes out of that is, tends to be more specifically around projects. And so, I think there's a good example as the Nalhegan Tribal Forest, which I think was completed in 2015, 2014, 2015, that's owned by the Nalhegan Band of the Ibeniki. It's got a conservation easement on it that we steward. We've done some work together to make improvements around access and hopes to do more around expanding the size of that parcel and potentially bringing other parcels into tribal ownership. With the LNU down in the southern part of the state, we were just talking about that project, the securing of this three-quarter acre petroglyph site. So it's now protected, it's named. There was a naming ceremony a couple of years ago that I had a privilege to attend with the Chief of the LNU down there and many other stakeholders. And it's currently owned by the Vermont Land Trust, but we have every intention and there are agreements in place with the tribe, sorry, with the band to transfer that land to them when they have the capacity and resources in place, not funding, but just the ability to steward it, then we would transfer that land over. So those are some examples of what the specifics of those partnerships can look like. The third thing, which I spoke about, which was our land access agreement is something that, again, I can share a copy of it with you following my testimony, and that just as a broad affirmative access right that exists for all of the land that we own. So I think it's sort of project by project and effort by effort at this point as the conversation continues and opportunities arise, but I think more structured partnerships could definitely come from it. So you're not granting exclusive access to the land, to some of the tribes, but other publics can also go on to the land or that's why I'm trying to understand that part of it. That's right, it's not exclusive. The rights around gathering, probably around gathering medicine are exclusively called out in the affirmative access right for the bands and for indigenous people. So that's not something that we typically would grant. The right to hold ceremony, I mean, many of these things, it would be an interesting conversation if somebody came to us with a different affiliation and said, I'm curious and I would like to do something that is a ceremonial use of land that the Vermont Land Trust owns. That's something we'd have to consider. So yeah, I think the key point, and this is what we've heard back from the folks that we've worked with with the bands is that just naming these rights and tying them to an historical lineage and legacy here is really important for valuing the identity of Abenaki here in Vermont and strengthening the support for that relationship to land. And you said in the beginning, it wasn't just the four recognized tribes, but it's anyone who's self-identified as indigenous, is that correct? That's right, there are many members, many people who come from indigenous heritage here that are not members of the Abenaki bands or have a similar lineage, but don't identify with those bands or with those structures. So we wanna make sure that these rights were inclusive of those folks as well. Okay, thank you. Thank you. All right, any further questions for Nick at this time? Thank you, Nick. I didn't wanna go into gory detail about, though I may at some point wanna go into gory detail just about the process of what it takes to when someone does come to you and wants to preserve land and what the process might be, you know, all the interrelated parts. Do you receive money when you're doing conservation for land that you're purchasing on your own? Do you receive money from the Vermont Housing Conservation Trust Fund? The Vermont Housing Conservation Trust Fund contributed to the Nalhegan Project. I'm not a, and I'm trying, I'm not entirely sure if there may have been a contribution to the project with the LNU as well. I can check that and get back to you. So- Does the land trust ever receive funds that are more general usage than individual access than the easement rights? Can you try the question one more time? I'm not sure I get it entirely. So when you are purchasing this out of these 30,000 acres that are under your, the land trust's control. Yeah. Was, when you're trying to put a deal together or a purchase together, are you eligible to receive funds from the Housing Conservation Trust Fund or does that come from, you know, in the case of the Nalhegan's, they really applied and they went their own way down that road. Yeah, the Vermont Housing Conservation Trust Fund would only very rarely contribute funds directly to the Vermont Land Trust to support these projects. They do, but most often what's happening is we're working with a partner and that partner is the recipient of funds from the Trust Fund. Okay. Now that's helpful. Thank you. All right, you're free to say. Obviously, this is a conversation we're having for a little while today. I'm gonna move next to Beverly Little Thunder. Beverly, welcome back. Good afternoon. Thank you for giving me this opportunity. My name is Beverly Little Thunder. I am from the Lakota Nation of Standing Rock, North Dakota. I always tell people that I was traveling on I-90 and missed the turn to head north to my own town and turned north and wound up in Vermont. And I'm surprised. I love Vermont. I absolutely love Vermont. Let me begin by saying that, I talked with an elder recently when I was back home and she said to me, if you wanna preserve the earth and take care of it then you have to begin with the earth in your own backyard. That gave me something to really think about. Thinking about how food is obtained in the system, it's primarily based on creating a dependent consumer model and our needs are determined by government, large corporations, agribusiness, politics and media marketing. And what that results is, is that people suffer from diminished health and healthcare, poor air, water, soil quality and over-processed nutrient values. I wanna be a prosumer if you would. I want to grow my own food. I want to have my own garden. And I am 74 years old. I have lived and I don't know how many rental spaces and each time I've lived there, I've put a lot of effort into starting a garden. I cannot tell you how many times that I had to leave that garden because the rental period ended. I've never had a permanent place that I could pass my garden onto the next generation. And this bill is aimed at helping people like myself acquire a home base, a place where we can grow our own food if we wish, raise chickens and have eggs, where we can create a generational wealth by being able to pass the stewardship of that land down to future generations. And I heard Nick talk about ceremonial spaces. And I am very fortunate at this point in my life that I live on a piece of property that we were able to obtain after searching for four years. We've been here 16 years and we still have not been able to pay it all off. We lived without running water, electricity, sewage in a drafty drafty single wide mobile home with our granddaughter for close to five years before we were able to get enough money saved up to have our home built. And so on top of our land, we also are paying a mortgage. It's a great strain because now at 74, I'm not working. I was a nurse for 42 years. I could afford that. Now I can't. And this land would not have been purchased had it not been that my partner was white because every time I inquired the door was shut. I want this land to go into trust when I pass onto my next generation, onto the generations that come after that. I don't want a Walmart built on this land. I don't want to see it developed. I want to be able to walk on this land and harvest the many medicines that grow here. That is my dream. And I see this bill as creating that dream for those people who don't have the ability to even get on a piece of land. We don't have that initial down payment who may be struggling once they get on a piece of land to learn how to steward it in a good way. I want to learn how to farm. I don't know where to begin other than sticking a seed in the ground which by the way is a good place to start. However, this bill would open that door so that others like myself wouldn't have to wait until they were 74 to begin to realize this dream of land stewardship. I am very connected to the land. And one of the things that we do on the land that we're taking care of is we do hold ceremony. Every summer for two weeks, this becomes a ceremonial ground for any native person anywhere in the United States to come to. And we usually have up to a hundred people who come. You talk about safe space. When I first moved here, I was very, very apprehensive. I saw nobody in this town that even remotely looked at like me. I got strange looks everywhere I went and people seemed afraid to talk to me. It was not until I went to a town meeting and a table full of old farmers. They look like old farmers. I'm just assuming they were with the pants, plaid shirts and typical garb for a lot of Vermont men. And they said, hey, Burley, which took me aback because I haven't been called Burley for a long time. Did you move up there on that road? Are you the ones that are living on that land there? And I raised myself and I said, yes, I am. And one of the most rugged looking ones said, then you're responsible for those drums we hear. And I said, yes. And another one said, you know, I get up in the morning and I get on my tractor and those drums just make my day. And they went around the circle and they all talked about how wonderful it was to hear the drumming and singing echoing through these hills. I sat down and I realized at that point that it was going to be important to develop a relationship between the residents of this town and myself. It would have been really helpful if I had had other BIPOC people come and support me and be there with me outside of the two weeks that we were here for ceremony. I think that that's important for any BIPOC family that moves into an all white community, which let's face it, that's the majority of the towns in Vermont. And they need that support. I think that human beings, once they get to know each other, they find more similarities than they find differences. Is that to say there's not racism in this town? No, I wouldn't go that far. But the majority of the people in the town of Huntington where I live are incredible. Incredible people who like myself care about the land, care about their children, care about the environment, care about what's happening in our state. That makes it a safe place for me. There are those times when I don't feel safe. Every now and then someone will come racing through town and big pickup truck and I don't sleep well that night. Wondering if they're going to come racing up our hill. We live pretty remotely. We have a big dog, but the big dog would probably show them where the silverware was. That would be why. But there's still that level of fear. That's level of fear of two older women living alone. When we talk about safe space, you have to have allies around you. I now feel that I have allies that I can call on in this town, but just taking 16 years to get here. I want people who move into a new town to be able to talk to their neighbor about what would be the best crops you grew. How did you manage to amend the soil not using pesticides? What's the school like that your children go to? How do I talk to white teachers who have predominantly white students and don't have a clue as to how to relate to a child of color? All of those are things that I think of when I think of a safe space. And when I think about this bill, I see that it is one that can provide support in so many areas. And it is so long overdue. The people of color in the state deserve to be able to have a piece of property that they call home. But they don't have to worry about starting a garden and having to move. The people of color in the state deserve to have that support. And you're right, and $10 million sounds like a lot. But it really isn't when you think about the money that can be put into trainings, the money that can be put into helping someone get the equipment they need to run their farm. Most people of color, the land trust is great, by the way, but most people of color don't wanna move on to 10 acres of forested meadowed land with nothing to live on, are in. I did it, it's not easy. And for someone with a family, it would be next to impossible. I remember panicking when I stepped outside my tent and the dog's water bowl was frozen. It was like, we've got to get shelter quick. We're gonna be frozen. So, buying a place that has a structure on it is really, really important. And with this bill, this will help a family do that to at least give them a start, give them solid ground to stand on. And it is a step towards reparations. It is a step towards undoing all that racism has taken away from us over the last 100 years, 200 years, is not giving us anything. It's helping us. We're not asking you to give us anything. We're asking you to help us. Help us create this board that will be made up of our peers that will decide who gets a grant for what. So many times, we apply for grants and it's an all white board that has to decide whether we're worthy or not. That needs to change. We have very, very qualified people in our communities that can handle that amount of money and responsibility. And with this bill, that's one of the things that we're seeking to develop. I think I went beyond the 10 minutes I was given, but I thank you very much for listening to me. You have to understand that at this age, I'm frantic to develop something for the next seven generations to hold on to. And it's a passion of mine. And I don't want a young family with a child or two that have to put in a garden at a rental and have to leave it just about the time it's ready to be harvested. Lamia, thank you. Thank you Beverly. I'm gonna move to Jessica LaPorte. Jessica, welcome. Microphone is yours. Hi, thank you. I know that I have a time constraint, but I wasn't sure if there were questions for Beverly. I think we're all sitting here moved by her comments right now. And we can ask if she has questions, but I wanted to make sure that you had room to speak as well and Beverly just to be clear, as far as we're concerned, that's a 10 minute. That was 10 minutes. Legislative time is a little bit different. I like the ball. Okay then, while I will jump in, my name is Jessica LaPorte and I identify with she or pronouns. And I'm a resident of Duxbury, Vermont, which now means that anyone who is listening probably would be able to identify where I live. I was asked to testify today by collaborators across various groups involved in advocating for this bell, including seating power. And I was asked to testify on behalf of myself as a black woman born and raised in Vermont and living here now. I wear a lot of different hats. I'm a member and organizer with the Vermont Relief Collective. As Tom mentioned, I work for the Alchemist. I am newly co-leading the community resilience organizations with Mindy and I'm a board member of the Stow Land Trust. I also organize with people for police accountability in Burlington and participate in local racial justice groups like the Racial Equity Alliance of LaMoyle County and Waterbury Area Anti-Racist Coalition, which are both where I live and work now. And that doesn't quite cover it all. And I am here as myself, which means that I cannot represent all of the experiences of people of color in Vermont, other folks who grew up low income, especially not the perspective of those who were here, but were economically, socially or forcefully pushed out from this state. For those of you who have served in the legislature for a long time, you should at least be familiar with what happens to black female political leaders in this state when they speak the truth. I am here as somebody who was raised below the poverty line but has recently surpassed it. I have stable housing thanks to my sister and my family. I am here as somebody who wants to live in Vermont, but does not see a financial future that would allow me to purchase a home here, not at all unrelated to the fact that I am married to somebody who has still yet to immigrate to this country. I'm here as somebody who knows that the clearer I speak the truth and stand up for actionable, effective racial justice and anti-oppression and policies, the less likely I will be able to peacefully and safely live in a small town in Vermont. I came here to tell the truth and to be honest, while also knowing that testifying as an individual means that the consequences of my honesty leave only me exposed. And I can't help but wonder what it would be like if all of your witnesses and those offering expert opinions throughout these committees and testifying on behalf of all kinds of bills were here in this personal of a role as myself. Since I'm talking as myself, I'll tell you a little bit more about me. My sister and I, who has already, she has already testified to this committee, we grew up in Stovermont with a single mother who is a career waitress, bartender and now caregiver. And so you could say that I grew up poor in a rich town. I was raised in the house where my mother was raised, a house that my grandparents originally purchased with about 100 acres and sold all but about two of those acres to make ends meet while raising 10 children. In 2017, my mother and her siblings sold the house and split it as their only inheritance. Eight out of 10 of those siblings still live in Vermont and five out of eight of those siblings in Vermont are land or property owners. And my mom is not one of them. Like many who grew up here, I left Vermont for a while. I went to boarding school, took a gap here, went to college and then I lived in Haiti for six years which is now my other home. And when I moved back to Vermont in 2020, the pandemic had just hit and the US went through what was a bit too short and too shallow of a racial reckoning. Because of my intersectional identities, I've had the incredible opportunity in this return to Vermont to engage in spaces of re-imagination and community that are curated by and for people of color like the Vermont Relief Collective, the Everytown BIPOC land matching committee and unlikely writers. I've been encouraged and learned from imaginative models like the Northeast Farmers of Color Land Trust, the Susu Community Farm, the Global Majority Healing Collective, Conscious Homestead, obviously Beverly's work and space and many others. These are BIPOC-led cooperatives forming across the state that center reconnecting BIPOC with the land and improving their health and wellbeing. These spaces coupled with my time in Haiti have reshaped my understanding of most things like my basic needs and my vision for the future. And they have given me a space to acknowledge and express how wholeheartedly disappointed I am with how consistent structural and interpersonal racism is today. Each and every single one of these initiatives has had to jump through hoops and face opposition because they don't fit into the white dominant capitalist mold that and then they're discredited or undervalued by the outsiders who hold the keys to finances, legal status and other resources. So when I think about why I support this bill, I love that the bill itself holds a lot of that language. To quote it, this bill proposes to promote racial and social equity in land access and property ownership by creating grant programs, financial education and other investments targeted to reminders who have historically suffered from discrimination and who have not had equal access to public or private economic benefits. Quoting again, wealth disparities are a function of not only access to income, but the ability to access land and property ownership. Wealth disparities directly and indirectly affect the health and wellness of individuals and communities. I believe H273 is needed because the existing programs for housing equality and access don't adequately address the unique needs of BIPOC homeowners. And they aren't offered in approached in ways that are supportive of people with those identities. They often don't acknowledge that it's harder to get support in those institutions and organizations that are white led and white dominated. As somebody who grew up in a poor white family, my sister and I are the only people of color, I can tell you that the unique need, my unique needs do not match those of my mother, her siblings or my cousins, many of whom were or still are low income. I love this line from the bell. The relationship between all persons in the land has been used to oppress persons over the past several centuries. The laws and policies of our state and nation severed indigenous persons from their land while denying them. Black persons and other people of color from having the opportunity to access land. It's a hard truth, but it's the reality. I also love this line, just transition to an economic system that systematically undoes racism instead of reinforcing it. Efforts to remedy wealth disparity in the United States have traditionally looked at free market economy solutions to answer the very problem that it has created. Doesn't really make a lot of sense, right? If we are turning to the same systems that have created the problem. For me, H273 is a bill and an opportunity to carve out space for BIPOC to guide the process of increasing land access and property ownership for their own community. It directly contrasts and begins to address the structures and practices that brought us to where we are today and that divorced BIPOC from the land. And it creates a pathway to keep this work going into the future. We've heard some legislators hem and haw about where to put this fund, how much money should be in it, who should manage it. And honestly, instead of picking away with half truths, why don't we start with being honest? This bill isn't palatable. Some of you don't in fact believe that systemic racism is real. And some of you that do believe that is real aren't prepared to sacrifice and push for this bill to counter the strong inertia around racial inequality in our country and in our state. Some of you have proposed that this fund be integrated into the working lands enterprise or I've heard mention of other bodies that work on land and housing equity. It really makes me question if you've read the intent and findings of this bill because H273 is about BIPOC people being able to exist on land in Vermont. Predicating the worthiness of access to land on operating a business in their community limits creates unnecessary contingencies. I support looking at the model of working lands to see how money can be dedicated to certain things and those mechanisms could be used but they need to be used for a different purpose and they need to be managed by different people. As a board member of a local land trust I've unfortunately confirmed a lot of my suspicions. While land conservation can allow for ecological stewardship and public access to land because these easements and structures were developed without indigenous consultation they often further restrict indigenous access and practices on the land. And I'm glad to hear that VLT and other land trusts are looking at ways to start to rectify that. But in contrast, NIFOC in every town are being designed with that at the center. And something that is really important is long lasting relationships to land. I think about the generations that Beverly is hoping to sow into. I think that something else that's really interesting for a land trust model is that affordability mechanisms which are mostly placed on working lands really hold a narrow view of working lands of farming, of food production that require profits, profit generation and don't leave space for those who are growing food and medicines for other purposes. At the end of the day, land trusts are a way to hold land wealth and no inclusivity initiatives about how the outdoors are for everyone directly address land wealth inequality. The current land trust model is a very effective wealth management tool. In order to economically benefit from land conservation you have to already own land. So land owners get paid money to protect that land so sell the rights to development without actually relinquishing their rights to control over that land. They're in the driver's seat to negotiate what public land use looks like and what conservation stewardship is going to happen. That's why for me, the every town BIPOC land actress process could not fit into the land trust mold. It means that they're actually trying to put land and trust in perpetuity that involves giving land back to BIPOC and relinquishing control. So I feel like I've had many things to say and at the end of the day, I really truly believe that H273 not only is fundamental to begin the process of shifting our relationship to land and actually making space for BIPOC for Monters to be here and stay here but I also think that I also think that if it's approached in any way that doesn't acknowledge the existing infrastructure, networks, communities, initiatives that are led by BIPOC in this day and actually puts the stewardship of this funding and these mechanisms in their hands it's not doing its intended purpose. So I really encourage you all to pass this on intact and to preserve those elements of this bill. I want to live in a future Vermont where people of color don't have to fight to stay here and have pathways to put down roots when they might not have white family members like myself. And I know that our existing BIPOC led initiatives are prepared to absorb and steward this work. Thank you. Thank you, Jess. Jess, can you, you mentioned about the number of different cooperatives that are that are sprouting up across the state and BIPOC run cooperatives and that is in fact an economic model or a business model that we do not have a lot of experience with it. Can you spend a couple of minutes to describe how that working model is for us? I mean, I have a general idea of what it takes but it is rare enough that we don't have automatic supports for it in place. I'll introduce them to relinquish control. I mean, I think cooperatives there are so many different forms of cooperatives because they might be being enacted in different spaces. There are worker owned cooperatives that maybe within a business model there are collectives and cooperatives that are around land stewardship, some are around food production. So it's really broad, but I do know just as one example, a space like Conscious Homestead which is an urban BIPOC food project and community center, they are legally, this is why I'm saying when I say that there's friction between the imaginative ways that these groups are seeking to exist and the existing system. So you have to choose, are you for-profit or nonprofit? And there's often a lot of pressures and push to grow to a space to be able to, you either have to be able to employ people and generate enough profits or you have to be fully charitable. And there aren't a lot of great ways to bring those two things together. And I think a lot of cooperatives are kind of similar to that. And I do know that some of these collectives have chosen not to pursue nonprofit status or formalize under a specific structure. And honestly, the individuals who steward those end up paying the consequence when it comes to all of that income being considered individual or self-employment income. So there are farming cooperatives, there are business cooperatives, there are all different forms. I think that just in the ones that I think have been proposed to this committee as potential groups to testify as well as those that are named in the bill to receive the funding are non-traditional organizational models. Well, thank you. And I know that's just a thumbnail sketch, but it's just important for us to hear, just to begin to understand the differences. My overt co-op, I can name, Washington Co-op for Electricity, Hungamount Co-op for Food, Groceries. But that's where, it's not that we're talking about something different, but we are talking about something much more specific than those larger organizations. So thank you. Any further questions for Jess right now? All right, we will move in committee. We're just gonna work through till 245 today. Good. Antoine, what's up? Yeah, that's what you said, we're not gonna break. Yeah, we're not gonna break now. We're gonna work right through till 245. Okay. So finally, we have Antoine Williams who's been waiting patiently. Antoine, welcome to General Housing Military Affairs, and we've asked you to testify on 273, and as a financial advisor, I'm sure I would expect that you're aware of the wealth disparities that we talk about when we're talking about these bills, and wondering if you could share your thoughts on 273. You're right. Well, it's my pleasure first to be here, and I'm honored and feel so happy to be able to talk about this. As you know, most of you know, my name's Antoine Williams. I have a financial planning firm. That's a financial planning and wealth management firm. A little bit about me, which is interesting, is I grew up in New York City, and I was fortunate to have housing stability only because my father was a Vietnam veteran. I'd like to say that I was afforded a lot of opportunities because I was the black family, the black family in the middle affluent building, but my father and my parents did not have to worry about home ownership because they had an apartment that my mother still lives in in midtown Manhattan. I mentioned that because as a financial planner and a wealth manager, my job is to help people make smart decisions with their money, and what's so important about this bill is it's talking about land ownership. When we talk about wealth management, and I talk to people about wealth, the interesting thing about wealth is the vast majority of it comes through home ownership. The vast majority of my clients were able to have, or have been able to have afforded things because their forefathers who had lands passed it on to their children who passed it to their children who are now passing it to them, and I'm helping them foster those going forward. When we get the definition of generational wealth, we're really, it refers to assets passed by one generation of a family to another. The question is, what happens if you don't have the opportunity to ever purchase a home, and therefore you have assets, but your assets are there to just sustain themselves and just to pay the day-to-day bills that we all have? How are you in that situation supposed to have generational wealth? The thing that makes me so proud of what you're trying to do at this point in time is trying to find a way for there to be a beginning. There needs to be that opener. I've got five clients right now out of state that are trying to move to Vermont, and one of them told me yesterday, in order for me to buy a place in Shitton County in particular, we will need to spend 20 to 25% above appraisal value. That is absolutely ridiculous. And the scary thing is, we're talking about a very small population of people that will ever be able to afford a place that will not allow them to have full financing. So again, I'm really here more than anything else, hopefully to answer questions and to be support and support a bill that is looking to help ease the burden of the wealth gap in this country by allowing people, BIPOC people, Black, Indigenous, people of color, is to have a better chance, a higher probability of being able to earn that first step of wealth generation, wealth generation and the first step of stability, which is owning a home. I mean, when I heard the question of safe space, it was interesting. Beverly almost brought me to tears. Jess, what you're all saying is so much so profound. And when I think of the word safe space, safe space to me is just a place that you own that you don't need to worry that people want to push you out of. And for most of us, people of color in the state of Vermont, that's what we're dealing with. It's ironic as someone who, when I'd look at the bill, I kind of laugh and talk about how this is such a beginner's step. $10 million is really relative. I as an advisor manage 180 million. So we're not talking about a lot of money. We're talking about a fifth of the money that my firm manages alone is what we're talking about. That's not significant at all. But it's a first step. And we must walk before we run. And this hopefully is that beginning step. I'm more than anything else hoping that those of you who have questions can ask me about my thoughts about what I do. But again, you can hear the passion here is about allowing us to not only be able to afford land, but also want to have people who look like us who are able to make those decisions. Because I laugh, I'm often invited to speak at conferences. And the funny thing for me is oftentimes I'll go to a conference, sit in a room, not get paid any attention to because I look different. But then when someone mentions our speaker from Vermont, Antoine Williams, then all of a sudden I get a lot of attention. And it's like a lot of things here. It's unless you're dealing with or unless decisions are made by your peers, it's kind of hard to get the benefit of the doubt. And oftentimes as Jess was mentioning, as Beverly's mentioned, as Nick has mentioned, oftentimes the results are not as positive as they should be. And it's just not fair. So Antoine, we took testimony. Thank you for your comments. We took testimony and the statistic that's been shared with us by more than one person is that a white person and a black person side by side, both making $100,000 a year, the reality is that while their salaries are the same, their wealth differential is again, one fifth of a black person's is one fifth of that white person's just as, almost as a rule. And so that's not a new situation, unfortunately. But how do you, and we've heard, especially in relation to this bill, how much, how important land ownership is to wealth. And we only have to look at the increased prices of real estate over the last 24 months. So I truly understand that and see it clearly. But when you work with someone who is in that position, if you're working with someone who is making a good wage, who wants to, you know, who wants to start planning for their future and has to start working up that ladder of wealth accumulation, where do you, how do you start with that? One of the beginning parts is to work on increasing their emergency reserves, lowering their debts and trying to think about the future. But at the end of the day, home ownership is a big piece of that. The reason why, if you were to think about it, the reason why, if we've got the two people who make the same amount of money, but the wealth gap might be five times difference, has a lot to do with generations. If I, as I am, was probably the first generation that will allow my kids to inherit wealth, well, if my parents and grandparents were able to have and afforded to have the opportunities I have, we'd be able to equal that. So to go back to the answer to the question is, it's typically to save money so that they can put down a down payment for a home. And that's probably one of the hardest things for people to do, is to be able to make enough money to make ends meet while at the same time putting money away to save towards the future, but also accumulating enough, again, so that they're able to take that first step after being approved to put that money down to say, now I've got, now I've made a deposit, now I've got a home, and now they've got that base where with things can prosper. And that accumulation of wealth, if it works to that plan, we've had a pretty negative history with how lending institutions very much a part of the system. I mean, there's plenty of stories from the last 12 months of people of color having their house shown or appraised and then substituting themselves with a neighbor who's white and having the same house being appraised 20 to 25% higher. That tells me that there's an innate bias at the very least when it comes to that particular piece. Do you, again, if someone comes to you and says, my house was appraised at this level, I think it's worth this level, how do you work with them? You know, at that point, we might go forward and see what we can do and see if we can increase it, but that's just it. Oftentimes, there's not much that you can do at that point in time, except for going forward. So at that point, how much advice can I give? I can only give so much advice because I'm not the person who's in control and that's where the systemic racism hurts. It's if someone, I laugh to my wife all the time and say, hey, if I'm walking, if I'm in Shelburne in my suit, the way that I'm looked at, it's very different. I'm the same guy, but if I'm wearing cut-off shorts and Nick and I were coming from doing a triathlon way back when, Nick, and I'm not in a suit, all of a sudden people don't look at me the same way. So as a financial advisor, can I help that? No, I can't. I can't help that, but I can help them try to make better decisions going forward. But again, the thing that's pertinent here is, is to enable people to have the opportunity to own land, to own something that will be theirs. Something that if they're able to maintain themselves and live throughout their lives, that they can pass to their next generation. That's by definition generational wealth, the transfer of wealth from one to another and for most people, and it's what I see right now. I laugh and say, there's an amount of money that we manage or for every client that's got $100 or $1,000 or $1,000,000 or $10,000,000, they'll have equity in homes, a primary residence, or if they're lucky, a primary residence and a place in the Cape or a place in New York that is at least equal to what they have in a retirement account. And that is where the wealth disparity typically is. It's, I can make the same amount of money as someone else can during their lifetime, but all the assets that we have as a family are the assets that we brought to the table. We weren't aided by anyone else and a lot of times that aiding just has to do with someone having a house. Thank you, Richardson, you have your hand up. Yeah, thanks, Mr. Chairman. I just really want to appreciate your painting of that picture, Antoine, and I think it really ties back testimony that Jess gave, which I really appreciated. I just want to endorse. Because of, I mean, what I've come to learn is just how pernicious and all-encompassing structural racism is. And I think that this is really important for the integrity of this project and this process for the mechanism that's described in the bill around decision-making and the full BIPOC ownership and decision-making on that board is really essential. And I think that the history that Antoine is alluding to and describes around patterns of marginalization, of seizure, of land theft, which are, and we have the, as white people, we oftentimes have the religion at not being visible to us. And yet it's so fundamentally true. I just think that those are really important points that I'd like to make sure I get re-emphasized here as we move towards the end of this testimony that the mechanism by which the state of Vermont chooses to do this is just as important and maybe more important than the particular amount of money that gets allocated here. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I think that's in part the big challenge of a bill like this because it is really envisioning a different way of doing things. And outside of kind of the control of the systems that we've constructed. So I think it's a really, really important piece of the legislation and I'm glad that you highlighted that. Is there, I guess I had just one question given that you've all listened to one another as well. Is there anything that you haven't said, any of you haven't said that you would want us to know before we have to break? Jess? Yeah, I wanted to emphasize that I think the vision of every town and other groups that are really already without financial or structural support, these BIPOC led groups that are already creating what their community needs. The vision is for every town in Vermont for people of color of all walks of life who have come to live here in Vermont for all different reasons or who wish to return here. And for me, I think that that the vision being expansive is not, it speaks to why it's prohibitive for so many people economically to have forward to live in Shinnok County which is the county that's associated with the most racial diversity. And so it's definitely needed there. But where it's also needed is for Beverly and myself living in rural Vermont. And quite frankly, I'm going to look to these communities to make that longevity possible on the social, political, like interpersonal level. And that is the kind of like care and attention to detail that funding and resourcing these networks to continue their work, to not start their work. This is the state saying we want to partner with what is already being built and expanding across the state. And I think that that's something that's really important about this. Thank you. Beverly? Yeah, I just wanted to also mention that, our focus is BIPOC people but we're also talking about people who are of mixed heritage, of people who are disabled or differently abled. We're talking about people who are non-binary, transgendered, gay, lesbian. All of those are people that are part of our community. All of those are marginalized communities. And I just wanted to emphasize that we're looking at the whole gamut of people who don't have access and who don't have a hope of ever having access, of having a home or a place where they can pass on to their next generation. That's all I wanted to emphasize. Senator Martin? Thank you. I just wanted to say, going back to the chair's question to each of you about safe space and not to put any one of you specifically in the spotlight but I have to say, Jess, that I think we all, if we in any way question structural racism, need to think about your words that even just being here to speak to us isn't necessarily a safe space, that that's the reality. And I was a classmate of the individual, I think you're speaking of who came to our legislature and wasn't able to stay for the safety of her family. So it's a wonderful reminder that we do have a privileged place, each and every one of us and some more than others. And to forget that and to think that everyone just has everything we have needs to be jostled. So thank you. All right, any further questions on this bill right now for these witnesses? Representative Trump? I just have a question for you, Beverly. If you don't mind me asking, what kind of responses, when you were trying to finance your home, what kind of responses did you receive from the banks? Don't mind me asking. I mean, you made a point that that was very difficult for you. And I'm just curious as to how banking played into this. We wound up not going through a bank. The owner agreed to finance it personally. So we don't make payments for the bank. That is the only reason, that's the only reason why we're still here. Because with COVID and everything that has happened, our initial landowner has been very, very generous, very accommodating. But going through a bank was impossible. Did you try and did you, were you rejected? What were you feeling about that? Yes. What reason did they give you? Oh, various reasons, our income to debt ratio was too high. We didn't have, when we first got here, we didn't have long-term jobs, obviously. We weren't established. Different reasons like that. At some point, you just say, wait, this is not gonna happen. This is not gonna happen. And I did have a small home that I purchased in Minnesota. In retrospect, it was one of the sub-mortgaging things that happened a number of years ago. But I got out and I did have a very small equity in that. And my partner wound up cashing in her 401K and everything that we had went into the down payment on this home. So it was even now going to finance a car. I'm always having to be the second one on the mortgage of that. It's my partner who is able to secure a loan for things like that. And I have to say, you know, generational wealth, she's an only child. She's a white only child from the DC area. Her mother's 85. When her mother dies, she's assured of a large chunk of money. When my mother died, I got a bill for the funeral. And that's all I got. So, you know, there's a lot of disparities in being white and being from a native family that was very poor, that struggled. Even though my mother got her degree at 63, in social welfare, even though my mother was a veteran of World War II, she was not able to even get into any kind of a home until 1978, and that it was such a dump that when she died, it was almost given away and demolished. So, yeah, I don't like banks. I'd rather put my money under the mattress or in my piggy bank. Hope that answers your question. Maybe you can help. You know what? I was going to mention something there quickly, which is important to hear because I'm a guy in finance and even in the world of finance, which is, you would think, it's math. One plus one is two, but when it comes to certain things like making an approval, it's still arbitrary. There is that, this person's numbers are the same as this person's, and now it's to interpretation. And that's the hard part. That's the hard part, because in that situation, a bank or an institution is very easy for them to hide behind that feeling and say that you weren't accepted, which is unbeknownst to you that someone a lesser financial picture received the job or got the house or et cetera, et cetera. So again, I just wanted to put that out there that sometimes it seems that we're talking math and math is math, but that isn't the case. It's human nature oftentimes to take care of those that look like yourself. That's probably, that's in us, and that's important for someone of color. My wife and I, who we have a mixed race family, but oftentimes we're having discussions and she every once in a while will have to say, I forgot Antoine, that's right. That is something that you need to think about. And I'm like, you're right. You don't even know what you don't know luckily because you haven't been brought up that way. So even this, the land piece, this is important, but the part that Nick brought up and I'm gonna bring up again is, this is so important, but it's just as important to make sure that there's a step in a way that there is a, and as unbiased a group as possible that's able to control this so that the intended consequences will be achieved. Because you can give $10 million in a fund and with a group of people that don't wanna give the money away to a specific group and all the best intentions were great but there will be no activity because they pull the strings and make the approvals. I also have to say with the last name, Little Thunder, even without seeing me, that's a detriment. And racism is alive and well, even in our policing, in every aspect of our lawmakers, it is alive and well. I always tell the story about, we have an old Mercedes and the back light, tail light went out. My partner who was very, very, very, very, very white drove that car back and forth to Burlington. I don't know how many times with the tail light off. She bought a new tail light and put it on the dashboard and kept saying she was gonna change it. I got in the car one evening just to drive down to Richmond and don't you know, as soon as I was on the road, I got pulled over. Why? Because my tail light was out. I was questioned and drilled and held up for almost half an hour before I was allowed to continue with a threat. If I see you again with that tail light, not fixed, I am going to give you a ticket. Maybe if I had a blonde wig on, I don't know. I felt like it was very, very, very profiled. Well, thank you all. We have to end here for right now, but I wanna thank Antoine and Nick and Jess and Beverly for your testimony today. I really appreciate hearing on page 273. Thank you so much. Great. Thank you. Thank you. It's our pleasure, my pleasure.