 We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. These words from the Declaration of Independence are familiar to many of us, and yet it took 143 years for women to get the right to vote and 189 years for black people to get the right to vote. And still today, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are still only words for many people. Here in Boston, life expectancy varies by 30 years, depending on where you live. In Roxbury, with many poor and black people, life expectancy is 59 years. In the back bay, wealthy, and mostly white life expectancy is 91 years. It's tough to have liberty when you are in prison. The United States incarcerates 716 people for every 100,000 people. Our rate of incarceration is more than five times higher than most countries in the world. Millions of people in our country don't have healthcare, a decent job, good education, a home they can afford, and that makes it pretty hard to pursue happiness. So on this show, you are going to meet people who are making it possible to have life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. People today who are making the words of the Declaration of Independence come true. Hello, my name is Michael Jacoby Brown, and I'm your host where we hold these truths. And today we're very lucky to have George Luce, an organizer for many, many years with the Massachusetts Teachers Association and other organizers, other organizations as our hosts. George, welcome to we hold these truths. Nice to see you. Thank you, Michael. Yeah, I'm really glad you're here. George, can you tell us a little bit about your early life, your background and where you got your values from? Well, just let me say quickly. I had not seen the introductory video before and I'm humbled to be counted as a person who is helping with his life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. That's been my life's goal, and I'm really honored and humbled that you asked me to do this, Michael. So thank you. I'm honored to have you, George. So ask the question again. I'm sorry. Just tell us a little bit about your early life and where you grew up and where you got your values for pursuing justice. My, uh, I mean, the more the the older I get the more I understand that my my life story really starts with the life story of my parents who were both born in in Mississippi. My my father was a city boy born in Yazoo City, Mississippi, where my mother was a bit more rural born in Duck Hill, Mississippi. And uh, uh, I was raised. I was raised in Detroit. Uh, uh, like many African-American families, my parents migrated around World War II when my father was stationed outside of Detroit Selfridge Air Force Base. My mother came up to work in the in the post office. Um, and, uh, I, they, they, I, I, my values, my values come from them. And, um, and the more I sort of unpack my life, I understand that they were traumatized by living in early, you know, in Mississippi and the early part of the 20th century. Um, uh, my mother witnessed lynch lynchings that sort of impacted her life. My father, um, you know, was ashamed of the fact I didn't really understand my lineage only to find out at the age of 30 or so that my great-grandfather was a white man who, you know, for one or better, I don't know what was happening in Mississippi, but I gotta, I gotta assume that he raped my great-grandmother and that sort of, you know, set my, uh, set their, their training for me. That is, uh, you know, you got to be twice as good as white people to, to get, to get anywhere, which said to me, I was twice as inferior as black people, which, which made me strive, you know, which made me determined to be successful, but always with this, uh, internalized racism monkey on my back. Um, uh, but, uh, they taught me to persevere. They taught me to, um, not rock the boat, but to keep moving on. I mean, I remember several times calling, uh, in several situations, as I got older, um, and felt like a soldier in a war that I was not prepared for, uh, uh, calling my mother in tears, uh, telling her to, uh, let me come home. Don't make me stay in this place with all these white people. Like, but she said, uh, you gotta, you gotta, you know, keep your head down, but you got to persevere, you know, we're counting on you in so many, in, in so many ways. So that, that colored, that colored the way I saw the world and, um, and it, you know, it had, it has, it had its, uh, positive impact and it had its negative impact. Um, so, uh, so that's, that's sort of my early training, my early view, uh, where my early values came from and my, also my parents, especially my mother, my mother was very religious and there was a, there was a, uh, there's a, a Christian ethic of service that I got from her. I, um, I questioned the Christian part of it, uh, and still do, but the service part of it, um, I got it. And also, you know, she was very, we lived in an all black neighborhood. Uh, actually we, we sort of the, the, we were the way from Eastern European Catholic folks who were, were running for the suburbs as we were moving in, but there were still, uh, poor white people and my mother in her Christian service always sought them out, always strove to make them feel part of the neighborhood. It was, uh, it was a complicated, but, um, you know, I, um, I feel the emotion coming up that it was a very full, very rich, uh, uh, uh, set of values, um, that, that I, that I gained from my parents. Where did you move on? You said you were, uh, raised in Detroit. Where did you move after that? And how did you get involved in organizing? Um, I, uh, I came, I came, uh, I came of age, so to speak, uh, around the time that affirmative action was happening. I think I graduated from high school in 1965. Uh, I spent a year, I was a I was a precocious young musician at that time. So I, uh, right after high school, I spent a year at this, uh, Music Academy in Northern Michigan, the Interlaken, Interlaken Arts Academy. Famous. Yeah. Oh, you've heard of it. Yeah. Oh, it's famous. Yeah. Uh, precocious young trumpet player I was, which led to a scholarship at the University of Michigan. Um, and, uh, which led to teaching, uh, teaching music in, uh, in Eastern Michigan. And then, uh, now this was the 60s, so I, I made a jump and moved to, uh, to Maine, um, as part of the, uh, you know, as part of my, my, uh, trying to figure out who I was. I made, I became part of the back to land movement, moved to Maine, uh, taught music in Maine for, uh, I don't know, five years or so, but then, uh, got involved in the union. And, um, you know, um, uh, I was, uh, on the local bargaining team in Belfast, Maine. And, uh, from there, I got a job with the, um, Maine, it was then the Maine Teachers Association, now it's the Maine Education Association. The executive director there, uh, was new to the state and needed to check the box, saying that my staff is diverse. And, and Maine, there weren't many, you know, there weren't many African American folks. Uh, so I got the job knowing absolutely nothing about negotiations, about union work. I mean, my father was a teamster, a lifelong teamster, and I did spend time with him, uh, on the picket line and, uh, I used to go to work with him. And, uh, I, I didn't learn, uh, union values, but my mother always berated my father for teaching me curse words, uh, from the union guys. But, um, so went to work for the Maine Education Association. And, uh, I was lucky enough, you know, once again, uh, the NEA at this point needed also to check its boxes. And they were starting and organizing, uh, organizing academy, the NEA, they're the, um, the, the, uh, mostly men, uh, white men who in the early 60s would parachute into a state with three or four names. And six months later, there would be, uh, there would be a, uh, a, uh, a union, a teacher's union who was, uh, uh, soliciting legislation for collective bargaining rights. Uh, the, these were the guys, and I got, and I got selected to be part of this national training cohort. Um, uh, and, uh, and that's, and that's where I learned, that's where I really learned about organizing. Um, the, um, uh, what was the name of the book that was sort of the central text in dubious battle, Steinbeck, uh, organizing in the apple orchards in, uh, Northern California. And just the whole idea of, um, of, uh, the whole idea of, of collective power sort of crystallized in my mind. And all of these, uh, all of these, uh, conflicts that I was having in my head around racism, around my identity, around my place, sort of clicked. And as somewhere during that period, I, um, I, my, my life's work, uh, came, came into view for me. And that, and I, in my, uh, 28-year-old na, na, naivete, um, I, I knew that I could, um, uh, have a, uh, have a serious impact on racism. As a matter of fact, at one point I actually thought I could eradicate racism, uh, just to show how naive I was, uh, in my lifetime with this powerful tool, uh, organizing, uh, you know, and I remember that first definition, people coming together to create power, to accomplish mutual self-interest gains. It just clicked. And I be, and I became part of this, um, national cohort and, and learned as I learned as I learned organizing as I went along. And, um, and, uh, that, that's how I, I fell into it and became sort of, um, lacking any, uh, lacking the aggression, uh, bargaining aggression that I saw in my white counterparts. That's just not me. Um, uh, you know, keep your head down, uh, don't cause waves. I was much more subtle in my, uh, way I went about doing things, uh, but my organizing skills, my organizing, uh, reputation sort of grew. And, um, uh, even though I was still learning and I'm still learning, I found my niche in, um, in working for, uh, NEA and its, and its affiliates, which served me well as I entered into all, always mostly, in fact, in Maine, it was all white staff, except for me. When I got to Massachusetts, it was practically all white staff, except for me. Um, but my ability, my vision around organizing helped me, helped stabilize me through some pretty rough periods, especially when I first came to Massachusetts, where it was clear that I was not wanted by the, not by the MTA, because once again, they needed to check, check that box, but still checking boxes. That's still a lot of what goes on as I'm sure you know, and I'm trying not to swear as we move along here, but we're on television. That's okay. Can you tell me a little bit what those are? You said you weren't really, uh, wanted by the Mass Teachers Association and this was what, 30, almost 30 years ago? I came to the Mass Teachers Association in 19, I think it was 1988. Wow. That was more than 30 years ago. And, uh, what's it like then? Well, uh, first of all, the reason, the really the, the, the people that got me here were these five or six, uh, uh, black, female, mostly, uh, members who were part of the, they had the, there was a Minority Affairs Committee and these women knew something about organizing and they, you know, they, they organized their allies and, uh, convinced the MTA that they needed to diversify the staff. Uh, and, uh, once again, Northeast was pretty, uh, there was pretty, uh, not many staff people of color. I think there were, I mean, me and Gimple's I'm strong in Connecticut. Uh, so I was in Maine and, um, uh, and, uh, and one of my mentors from the NEA, a black guy named Garfield Bright, told me I should apply. He told me two things. He should said, I should, there's this job in Massachusetts you should apply for. And then he said, but you're crazy to go there. Those folks are races. They don't want you. But, you know, I was, I was needing to get out of Maine at that point, uh, and at, at Heart of City Boy. And, um, and so the, and came interviewed for the job, met these, uh, five women and there was one, uh, there was one brother also. Um, and, uh, I got hired and the, uh, I walk into my, uh, supervisor's office and this was, I think the last presidential election. Jesse Jackson was, uh, was a, uh, uh, a candidate. I'm proud to say I was, I was, uh, I was, um, a delegate for Jesse in Maine. I didn't go to the national, but, um, but on the, on the, on his, uh, uh, court board there, there were, there were cartoons after cartoons, disparaging, horrible racists, uh, about, um, about Jesse. So, uh, I knew that I was, you know, I, I was gonna have some rough rows, but you know, my mother is in my ear saying, you got to persevere. You know, we're depending on you. Keep your head down, stay safe, but get in there and do something. Um, so at the end of my first year, he wouldn't give me, uh, he wouldn't give me, uh, you know, you get a year's, um, probation. He refused to give me professional status and the same five African American women, uh, came to my rescue and, uh, demanded, I don't know, you remember Ed Sullivan, who was the, uh, director. I do. They, they, they lit up his behind and said, you, you make it, you, you give this man the, the, uh, the, what he needs to be successful or else. And, um, he moved me out of the analysis. I had a new, and they treated me like I was like the, the, in the new office, he must have given them the riot, you know, the riot act too, because they treated me like I was the long lost son. Of course that didn't, that didn't last forever either. And I got into conflict there. So, um, and I learned early on from these black women that I needed to establish a power base. And luckily I knew how to organize and, and that power base, uh, um, uh, supported me. People that I met and worked with in my early years were my support, uh, throughout my career, uh, at MTA. And who are some of those people? I don't know if you remember the names of the five black women and the one black guy you mentioned, this was a long time ago, I know. Josephine Bernard, Edith Cannon, oh, and the Louise Gaskins. Um, and then there is, uh, Anne Was, who was a white woman who was a powerful ally. Those are the names, those are the names I read. And they were all teachers in various districts, I assume. Yep. Yeah. Randolph and I'm not sure, uh, Anne was someplace in Southeast, Southeast Michigan. Louise Gaskins was from Bedford up that way. But you were there for a long time and I know we've, uh, and, uh, when you think about, uh, your years there, what are some of the lessons that you say you learned there as an organizer? What are some of the most important things or I don't know if you have one short story to tell that sort of experience? Oh, well, I also had the opportunity to take the, uh, so NEA training is okay, but NEA is NEA, right? They're, they're steel checking boxes, as you said. Even though things, uh, they, I see some, there's some light at the end of the tunnel, but you know, as an organizer, you always see the light at the end of the tunnel, no matter how fast it goes. As long as we can organize, we get a chance, right? So, um, and I, I felt, and I met another mentor, Ernesto Cortez, uh, right? I know, yeah. The IAF, and I learned two things, uh, two things from him. One, one I sort of knew, and that is the one on one is the revolution, revolutionary tool of organizing is what he said. But, but he also said, and this has helped me understand that you have to keep learning is that to be a good organizer, you have to be willing to be transformed, right? You can never, you, you, you have to enter every situation with utmost humility and be ready to understand that you don't know everything, that there are stories out there you've never heard, uh, and that your job, your job depends on your willingness to be transformed. So that, I mean, we were just, uh, you know, we were talking to Katie earlier before the broadcast, and here's another opportunity for me. I have to be willing to be transformed as we see our Asian brothers and sisters gaining awareness as to, you know, their place in America. So here's another, here's another, and out of tragedy comes opportunity, right? Here's another opportunity, hopefully, yes, for us to pull together and it depends on organizers like you and I and others to be, to be our willingness to be transformed to always be questioning our biases, our values, not our values, but, you know, always questioning what we think we know about the world as it currently is, because it's always, always, always changing, changing, especially as we unpack this, this racism thing, right? Um, there's, there's plenty of stuff to, to learn. Always something. And, and what would you say as, you know, we're, uh, at a place, both of us in our lives where we're trying to train younger people, and I know you're particularly interested in training young black people as organizers. What are some of the things you'd like them to understand and know? I think that, uh, I mean, I, the, I come back to the willingness to be transformed to, uh, I mean, it's up to we elders, seniors, to, um, to use our skills to hook them, you know, to go out and meet, meet, meet these young, uh, uh, young men and women of color, um, and, uh, meet them where they are. And, you know, uh, the, as Ernesto Cortez said, the one-on-one is the revolutionary tool of organizing. Get out there and do one-on-ones. If on the street corners, in the church, wherever we can find young people at the YMCA, I don't know where, but they're, they're, um, they have energy. They have rage. And, uh, I think it's up to us to find a way to, um, to channel that way, erase. I mean, another, uh, working, when I was working with, well, well, people from Wellstone, um, uh, Northern Minnesota Presbyterian organizer used to say there's a place in the choir for all God's children. So, you know, we got to bring, we got to bring these young people of color, these young black African Americans, Latinx, Asian, we got to bring them into the fold and find, find their, help them find their place in the choir to, um, to, um, so that they, so they'll understand that they're, I said that I felt like I was in a war that I was ill-prepared to fight as a young person myself back in the 60s. Well, these are different times and we have to help them understand that they have a place, they have a place in this army and, um, we can help them channel that rage, that, uh, resentment, uh, well, all, all understandable, uh, in, in a positive direction. And when you say you have, sorry, you were going to say something? No, no, no, go on. Now, when you say you have to be transformed, can you say a little bit about what that might actually mean, uh, for someone in their work, in their life on a daily basis, what that looks like, what it looked like for you, perhaps? Um, for me, it looked like, it looked like being willing to be, um, radically self-aware, radically self-critical, um, to question, you know, I, you know, I, uh, internal, I internalized a lot of racism, you know, as we all do. Um, and, you know, and 400 years worth of it, I got it from my parents as I explained, they got it from their parents. God bless them. Um, uh, so, um, I sort of lost my train here. But, uh, and you said when you came, certainly to Maine, certainly to Massachusetts, there was plenty of even very overt racism. Those Jesse Jackson cartoons, why is it so important now that, uh, young black people become organizers and learn that work of doing the one-on-ones, learning how to build power? Why is that so important now, George? Because, uh, most, I see most of these entry-level organizing jobs going to young white college graduates. And they don't, um, they don't have the lived experience of, um, of racism. But they don't have the lived experience of the impact of racism on, on oppressed people. So, so we need black people, African Americans, Caribbean Americans, all people who have suffered under, um, colonialism racism to be at the table in those strategy sessions. Well, so when, you know, the, uh, the conversation seems to be going in the radically wrong way. We can speak up, we've been trained, we understand organizing. And let me tell you that that's going to fail. Here's what you got to think about. Here's what we need to think about. Those voices are not currently are missing from, from, uh, from the table when it comes to organizing strategy, organizing campaigns, choosing what you're going to organize around. And what are some of your plans in the next, uh, eight months, years to actually do that, George? What are you hoping to do? And how to have conversations with you and Horace Small and Edwin Argueta and other, uh, senior organizers about how we can pull together the resources to, uh, to, uh, to develop, to establish an academy for, um, uh, black organizers, young black organizers, you know, the organizers who probably won't have the opportunity to go to college, but have plenty of life experiences, which are, uh, invaluable, more valuable than going to, uh, uh, a college where, you know, the, the, the myth of, um, we're in a post-racial society or whatever is fed, you know, you know what I'm talking about. I know what you're talking about. And what would you say to them if you were talking now to some young black person who was thinking of, you know, getting into organizing, what would be like some of the words you would say to them? Well, I would start out with, um, uh, you know, how's it going for you? Where are you? That's where I, I, I would, uh, what I have to say, it's your, your, it's your time, you know, it's, it's our time, uh, but I don't have anything to say until I listen first. And then it will be to support, uh, starting where you are to give you, uh, what are your dreams, you know, given where you are, what are your dreams and how can, uh, how can we put together an organization that'll help you realize your dreams? I mean, that's, that's, I would, I just have to enter the, uh, enter the conversation as a humble, humbled and ready to listen and, and, and say whatever I have to say as a response to where you are. Figure. Is it, will it be willing to be transformed? You can be transformed. I mean, that would, uh, that's, that for me is you, you always have to keep learning to be in a good organizing. You have to be willing to learn all the time about yourself, about other people around, uh, different, uh, situations. You just have to have a, I have to have a brain that's open to everything. Okay. Thanks a lot, George. Our time's almost up. I know it went quickly, but if there's one last word you want to say to, uh, people who are thinking about getting into the organizing business, what would that be? Anything else? Um, Michael, I think I, I said it all. Okay. Now, George Luce, George, you spend a lifetime organizing, uh, with the teachers union first in Maine, later in Massachusetts, you are certainly the only black organizer. Much of that time, uh, fought that battle and we're looking forward to having you, uh, teach many others and listen to many others. I'll just say that I haven't spent a lifetime organizing yet, but I plan to. Right. You still got quite a lot of time left. Well, thank you. My name again is Michael Jacobi Brown. I'm your host that we hold these truths. We were very honored to have today George Luce, an organizer for decades with the Massachusetts teachers union and still organizing, especially young black people who can take the work that George and others have done into the future. So George Luce, George Luce, thank you very much. It's an honor to have you on our show. Thank you, Michael. Thank you.