 Those who have been associated with Vivek in some way, I think many of you are here. Very warm welcome to all of you. And before we begin, I'd like to request Professor Sugra Chonavala, Dean of HBCSE Homi Baba Centre to welcome Dr. Montero with a bouquet. You're all very much aware that this is a function to give the award, the Homi Baba Award in Science Education and Dr. Montero of course is the recipient and congratulations to him. Of course this is an unofficial statement. We'll have a formal announcement and heading over of the award from Professor Trivedi. I'd like to tell you a little bit about the Homi Baba Award in Science Education. It was instituted in 2006. The award was made possible by an endowment from Professor Bridge Arora, an alumnus of TIFR, of course a man very committed to science education. And the award is given every alternate year. That's once in two years. It carries a citation which you'll soon hear and a cash prize of rupees 20,000. I'd also like to mention the previous recipients of the award. The first award in 2006 was given to Professor Bhaktavar Mahajan of the Homi Baba Center of TIFR. The award in 2008 went to Professor Viji Gambhir also from the Homi Baba Center. The award in 2010 went to Professor Arnab Bhattacharya of the Tata Institute of Fundamental Research. Professor Arnab is also here. He's been associated with the award and with various science education activities. So welcome to Professor Arnab. The award in 2012 went to Professor Agankar from Homi Baba Center, TIFR. The award in 2014 was given to Professor Vijay Singh also from Homi Baba Center, TIFR. And there was an honorable mention for Sri Anand Gaisas from the Homi Baba Center. And of course we are here today to hand over the award for 2016. So you might be wondering how is it that I'm reading only names from TIFR and Homi Baba Center. So this is an award for members of the Tata Institute of TIFR and its centers, the larger family of TIFR. But it also includes the alumni of TIFR. And many of you would be pleased and of course we are all very proud to say that Dr. Vivek Montero was at the Tata Institute. He was a postdoctoral fellow many years ago. So we move on to the handing over of the award and I request Professor Sandeet Trivedi to read the citation. Dr. Montero, ladies and gentlemen, a very good afternoon to you today. It's a great privilege for me to be here today to participate in this ceremony and function. You know, I first heard about Dr. Montero almost the day I joined TIFR. My very good friend who is also a close friend of Dr. Montero, Spenta Wadia, is also a fellow theoretical physicist and Spenta told me he said, you know, you're going to have the time of your life in TIFR. Not just because the science is so good, but because there are so many remarkable individuals who are associated with this organization. And one of the people he singled out in his discussion was Vivek. And so I was very thrilled when I learned that he has been chosen for this very prestigious award. And I'm really thrilled to be here today in person to participate in this ceremony. I'll read out the citation if I may. So the Homi Bhabha Award in Science Education for 2016 is presented to Dr. Vivek Montero in recognition of his steadfast contribution over several decades to the universalization of science and mathematics education with impact across India, including creating a vast number of low cost educational science kits and innovative teaching resources like daytime astronomy projects, designing activity based educational engagements in mathematics and astronomy and teacher training modules, organizing and leading mass science campaigns during eclipses and other astronomical events, and founding Nav Nirmiti, a self reliant social enterprise for universalization of education. Thank you, Dr. Sathrivedi. Because there are many friends, well wishers, associates of Dr. Vivek Montero. And I think one of them, Mr. Praveen Kumar, who is the general manager of talent sourcing and manpower planning, so would like to hand over a bookator. Before Dr. Montero begins his talk, I'll just say a few words about him. Vivek Montero, there is BSc Physics from Bombay University in 1968, Masters in Theoretical Physics from California Institute of Technology, Pasadena in 1970, and PhD from the State University of New York, Stony Brook, USA in 1974. Dr. Montero was a visiting fellow, that's what we call postdoc fellow, in TIFR during 1975 to 77 in Theoretical Physics. His research interests included statistical mechanics, dynamical systems, and classical quantum physics interface. Vivek has been an active member in several science movements abroad and in India. He is the founder advisor to Navnir Mithi, a self-reliant organization devoted to universalizing good quality science and mathematics education. Over the years, Navnir Mithi has innovated a number of learning toys and tools for science and mathematics. It's developing a comprehensive pedagogy for universalizing school maths and science based on learning by doing. And is currently involved in programs for strengthening school maths and science in various states in India. Vivek has written numerous articles on STEM and STEM education, that's science, technology, and mathematics education, which have been featured in leading newspapers, magazines, and journals. Professionally, Vivek is a full-time political worker and trade unionist and works extensively on issues of both organized sector and unorganized sector workers. And above all, I'd like to say that Vivek, in terms of his work, in terms of his own life, is an inspiring example to all of us and really keeps us motivated in the sorts of work we do and a true leader in the field. Dr. Vivek Montiro. Professor Sandeep Trivedi, Professor Ravi Subramaniam, Professor Shugura and friends and colleagues from over the years and from many parts of India who have come here today. I am really honored that so many of you have come here today to share this experience. Very senior colleagues like G.P. Pednaker from Lok Vidyan Sangatna, a person even more senior than G.P. is Dr. Garda, who expressed his keenness to come today. But unfortunately, he was not well and he had to go to hospital so he could not come here today. But I'm very touched by the fact that he has expressed his intention to come here today. My childhood friend and actually my sister's classmate, my sister Preeti, who is no more today, former ambassador to Indonesia and Philippines. Navreka Sharma, she also is here today. I'm really very happy to have her here. And I will not start naming all the friends and colleagues whom I would like to name, otherwise there won't be time for this lecture. But I'm very happy that all of you have come here from Lombay-Lombay, Nasik, Guhargarh, Lombay-Lombay. And all of us are celebrating this joy today. Thank you to all of you. Many workers from both the organized sector where we have, I happen to look after the unions. Many workers from the unorganized sector, including contract workers from BRC, from other places. And I was very happy to be felicitated by Praveen Kumar because his workers are my members and we have met across the table to discuss their problems. My very senior colleague Kumar Chiralkar and all the people from the organization with which I work are also here today. When I was nominated, when I was told that I was nominated for this award, I said I will be much happier if the award goes to Navnirmiti because this is the organization that has done all the work. I have just been a team member and in fact this is the team of people who deserve the award. Then I was told that you have to have the TIFR ticket before you get the award. So I said okay, on behalf of this entire team of my colleagues and this work has been possible only because my colleagues in the union have given me that space and time to take some time out for education. So I sincerely thank all my team members who are here today. And I think one person I have to thank very especially is Brijarora. The reason being that Navnirmiti has been described as a self-reliant organization which it is. But a very important part of the self-reliance has been our first project which created the fund to set up Navnirmiti which was a solar filter project in which Dr. Brijarora checked the Mylar film on the spectrophotometer at TIFR. Now this was back in 1981 and before Navnirmiti came into existence. And at that time we decided to try and raise some funds for the Lok Vidyan Sangatana by making solar filters. So we found some Mylar film. Dr. Brijarora checked it out for us and it was found to have the right frequency characteristics. And so in that first exercise we made a handsome profit of 33,000 rupees which was the fund with which we organized a Vidyan Jatra at Prakasha where my friend Kumar Shirakal was working. This is in the Adivasi area in North Maharashtra. Then in 1995 again there was a total solar eclipse. And at that time again we decided let's do something. A factory was closed, women workers needed some employment. So we decided let's make solar filters. So we went back to the company we were making in Gujarat called Chemicoat and found it was closed. Then we found some packing material which seemed to suit the bill. It was made in a plant in Taloja and again we contacted Brij who again helped us. So Dr. Brijarora has been a very important part of the self-reliance of Navnirmiti. And I would like to personally thank him here. It's a small world indeed. Now today I will be speaking about science education and scientific temper. And let me begin by discussing what is scientific temper. What do we mean by scientific temper? This is from a statement on scientific temper in 1981 which was issued by a group of thinkers and intellectuals who gathered at Kunur and after some discussion they issued the statement. It says that there are four parts. The method of science provides a viable method of acquiring knowledge. Number one, B, that human problems can be understood and solved in terms of knowledge gained through the application of the method of science. C, that the fullest use of the method of science in everyday life and in every aspect of human endeavor from ethics to politics and economics is essential for ensuring human survival and progress. And D, that one should accept knowledge gained through the application of the method of science as the closest approximation of truth at that time and question what is incompatible with such knowledge and that one should from time to time re-examine the basic foundations of contemporary knowledge. I would say that the last D, maybe we can keep that aside. But A, B and C is important because D is rather arrogant, but A, B and C is important. So scientific temper is based on something called the method of science and what do we mean by the method of science? It says that do not accept something on faith, put it to several tests before you accept it. There is a test of practice, there is the test of internal logic and consistency, then you put it to statistical tests of validity and then finally you put that subject in the public domain, put your statements in the public domain so that it can be looked at critically so that other people can ask questions and can challenge what you have done. So if something is making a claim to science, then it is very important that that should be willing to be subjected to rigorous testing. That is basic and any system of knowledge that is not willing to take rigorous tests of science cannot claim to be scientifically valid. You can claim validity of another kind, but you cannot claim scientific validity unless you are willing to be put yourself through those rigorous tests of science. And astrology is one of those subjects which we do not include in science for the simple reason that astrologers are not willing to subject themselves to this test as I will show you by the next example. There was a paper written by Dr. Davolkar and Prof. Narlikar and two other persons, scientific paper, it is about testing for astrology and what they did was they took the Janampathrikas of 100 persons of which 200 persons of which 100 were mentally challenged, 100 were not mentally challenged and had their horoscopes prepared and then astrologers were invited and they were given 40 of those at random and they had to decide based looking at those horoscopes, they had to decide whether the person who had that horoscope was in which category, was that person mentally challenged or not because clearly that is a criteria which would affect the future of that person very directly and it was found that 51 participants, this was just given to a conference of astrologers which was happening in Pune at the time, 51 came forward, 27 sent back their assessment and the success of all these 27 was not better than what you would conclude by just tossing a coin and deciding based on the toss of a coin. So, they concluded that astrology does not have any predictive power because no astrologer could pass this test and that test is still open. The Andhashradha Nirmulan Semitthi and the Maharashtra Andhashradha Nirmulan Semitthi they have put up a challenge which at that time when I prepared this side it was 21,000, 21 lakh rupees was the award but I think now it has been increased, maybe it has increased to about 1 crore of rupees and the challenge is this that you have to whatever you claim, what are the claims I will show in the next slide, if you claim to be able to do that, you have to do it under controlled conditions and if you pass the test then you will get 21 lakhs of rupees but the condition was that to take the test you have to put a deposit of 10,000 and if you do not pass the test you will forfeit that 10,000 so up to now nobody has come forward to take this test though the amount has been raised not the 10,000 deposit the award has been raised from 21 lakhs but nobody has come forward to take this test it is an open test which is still available and what are the things the claims that they are willing to test they are here, well I just want to the person accepting the challenge will ensure the safety aspects of the test, that is Andeshwara Nibbulan Simiti would not be responsible if something happened to the person who was doing the test that is the responsibility of that person so these are all the time kinds of tests which are open to being tested like duplicating a given currency note stop the heartbeat for at least 5 minutes using the power of yoga there are many claims that with yoga you can stop heartbeat so for 5 minutes you have to show that you can stop your heartbeat under controlled conditions and take 21 lakh rupees stop breathing for at least 30 minutes using the power of yoga I will not go through this entire list but a number of such challenges were given nobody has come forward to take that award now so all those things which I mentioned there they cannot claim to be scientifically valid because they are not willing to come forward and face a scientific test only by that criteria, for no other criteria they may claim other validity but not scientific validity because they are not willing to take a test now some important things about the method of science everyone has the right to question anybody can be questioned including the highest authority like Einstein no sacred texts, no high priests and anything claiming to be scientifically true must be put to proof must be open to being tested professor Feynman gave a nice definition of the method of science which is it is a long history of learning how not to fool yourself nice definition immediately from this definition we can conclude that scientific temper and the method of science is in contradiction to any kind of fundamentalism because fundamentalism whether it is Christian fundamentalism or Hindutva fundamentalism or Islamic fundamentalism any kind of fundamentalism or even a non-religious fundamentalism scientific temper which says that there are these scriptures which cannot be questioned, they are true it is in contradiction because it is based on doubt it is based on systematic disbelief and naturally and intrinsically in conflict with fundamentalism per se now today we have various kinds of fundamentalisms who are clashing with each other that's a very real aspect of not just our country but all over the world and we know that there is a close nexus between fundamentalism religious conflict, communal politics and terrorism so scientific temper is in natural and fundamental clash with all the above nexus and all varieties of fundamentalisms so therefore one conclusion which we arrive at is that scientific temper is fundamentally secular because it challenges all these communal ideologies by its very method but there are also other kinds of obscurantisms and modern obscurantisms one of which I have termed as techno-obscurantism obscurantism means to obscure to keep in darkness and not to put on the light and one example is Enron I was personally very much involved in the whole challenge to Enron and one thing which was very marked there was that Enron and all the various organizations supporting Enron including various governments they were not willing to release any data they were not willing to release any financial data we got the data but not by disclosure we got it by other means and we said that this is a ship which will not float and we showed it that this is a ship which will sink but it was not what we said was not accepted we challenged in the high court our case is still pending in the supreme court many things have happened it has led to a loss to our country of 25,000 crores of rupees still date and it is still mounting the losses are still mounting similar kinds of economic issues are also there in other current projects which are not yet off the ground like the Jaithapur nuclear project our whole power policy the nation's power policy as a whole and more recently the bullet train I will not get into a discussion of this but I will say that these cannot claim to be scientific projects unless they are willing to put the data into the public domain and which is open for public scrutiny but there is a reluctance to put the data on these projects of course it is the strength of Indian democracy and Indian science that I can speak here in an organization on the podium of an organization which is funded by the department of atomic energy and yet raise questions this is the kind of democracy which is there in science a very healthy democracy but certainly I think as scientific people we would expect that data would come and be put into the public domain so it is not easy to be scientific and I want to take the example of Professor Feynman from whom I have learnt most of my physics and I think most of the physicists here will agree that all of us who are studying physics have learnt most of the physics from Professor Feynman's books now during the Vietnam war there were many physicists who opposed the war I became what I am today because of my participation in the anti-war movement in the US at that time and there were many well-known scientists who opposed the war at that time there were many well-known scientists who supported the war whatever it is they took clear stands but there were even larger number of scientists who neither opposed nor supported and Feynman was one of those when he was asked to sign a petition against the war in Vietnam in 1967 he declined by saying that I feel unhappy that I am not sure enough of my position to be able to sign your letter this letter was going to be published in the newspapers he did not sign but then he said he also sent a cheque saying as the next best alternative I am imposing a small cheque to help make sure your advertisement is published so it's clearly he had not made up his mind now a person of his intellectual caliber who was able to draw such far-reaching conclusions in so many areas how is it that in an area like this he does not make up his mind I would just like to pose that question another example from his writings he writes about his association with John Von Neumann during the Manhattan Project in Los Alamos and he says that we used to go for walks on Sunday it was a great pleasure and Von Neumann gave me an interesting idea that you don't have to be responsible for the world that you are in so I have developed a very powerful sense of social responsibility as a result of Von Neumann's advice it has made me a very happy man ever since it was Von Neumann who put the seed that grew into my active irresponsibility it's almost as if he's, you know, proud of the fact that he's actively irresponsible stating it I was intrigued by that question and then in an article of his called The Value of Science this is what he writes he says, from time to time people suggest to me that scientists ought to give more consideration to social problems especially that they should be more responsible in considering the impact of science on society the last sentence I believe that a scientist looking at non-scientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy and when he talks about a non-scientific matter he sounds as naive as anyone untrained in the matter so now here is the same Feynman who has said that science is a long history of learning how not to fool yourself so now in this he says that the world the real world divides into two areas one is scientific subjects where you can learn how not to fool yourself and the other is non-scientific subjects where it is not possible to learn how not to fool yourself and which are these non-scientific areas? it is the reasons being that we don't know we don't have any magic formula for solving social problems and that social problems are very much harder than scientific ones so social problems are not scientific problems according to Feynman social problems are outside the domain of science if they are outside the domain of science you don't have to think scientifically you can arrive at whatever opinion you want but if you include that within the domain of science then you don't have that freedom because once you get into an area of science and you decide that you are going to be scientific it's like putting your system on auto navigation then you are no longer driven by your opinions but you are driven by the nature of the subject that you are investigating and you may arrive at very inconvenient conclusions and that is why it's very prevalent that scientists keep social issues out of the domain of science I am not talking here about scientists who believe in superstitions that is another subject, that is not my subject today but I want to point out that this is where in my opinion the problem occurs when you divide the world into areas which are so-called scientific and those which are non-scientific so what is science? Science is not a subject it is a method of seeking validity it is a way of looking at the real world as a whole not just natural reality but also social realities Science is not a subject Science is a subject of thought The world doesn't study two parts one is non-scientific and one is social Both the subjects are involved in the field of science Now I would like to go from here now to the subject of ancient science Our Honorable Prime Minister 3 years back made this statement which I will read out In the world of medical science, we can argue that what was our country at some point in time It was the story of Karna in Mahabharat We all read about Karna in Mahabharat but we never thought about it So if we think about it, we will notice that Mahabharat is saying that Karna was not born from Mahabharat This means that it was a genetic science That is why Karna was born without Mahabharat This was made before a scientific audience audience of doctors in Mumbai some 3 years back About plastic surgery Mahanya Modi Ji says this We worship Ganesh Ji There must be a plastic surgeon at that time who had affected the human body and started the plastic surgery Now normally we do not give much importance to such statements but when they are made by the Prime Minister of a country to a scientific audience then I think we are entitled to ask What was this statement being made as a scientific statement? And it was made before an audience of scientists So we would conclude that yes, it was being made as a scientific statement But there is a problem here The problem is that most of such statements are made in a situation where there is no questioning allowed All the monkey baths are on TV No question can be asked But supposing, let us say that he had made this statement before some intelligent students So children would ask him this question that Prime Minister Ji Do you know the difference between plastic surgery and organ transplant? Do you not know the difference between plastic surgery and organ transplant? And is there any instance of organ transplant in our Charath in Sushrut? But such questioning is not allowed Similar statements are being made in the Gujarat curriculum in this book called Tejo Bhai Bharat by Dinanath Bhattra who has become a big advisor to the governments on educational policy So these are certainly concerns for the scientific establishment of our country I must congratulate Professor Vaya of TIFR who has written a very good article published in Current Science where he has examined statements like this and presented an alternate point of view I will just mention this It is published in Current Science Now, having given different examples of the kinds of areas in which a scientific questioning is important and increasingly important in our contemporary life in India today Some of the projects which are coming need to be looked at critically Various statements being made need to be looked at critically Having raised that issue I want to point out now that in fact all of us here are, as Indian citizens we are legally bound to raise questions about these developments I want to now point out some legal mandates for all Indians We are all Indians and the principles of India and the laws of India are important to us Article 51A which is just after the Directive Principles says this that it is a fundamental duty of an Indian citizen to develop the scientific temper of humanism and the spirit of inquiry and reform Of course, this is not legally binding because the Directive Principles and thereafter, they are not laws They are just recommendatory But, some years back the Right to Education Act was enacted and that is a law and in that Section 8G talks about quality education the appropriate government shall ensure good quality elementary education conforming to the standards and norms specified in the schedule Now, after Right to Education Act 2009 which was implemented from April 2010 Now, it's just enrollment is not sufficient for as a compliance with that right Compliance with that right now means access to good quality education So, you may ask what does the law say about good quality education that is actually specified in the National Curriculum Framework 2005 which has been notified under Section 7 of the same Act for the entire country and NCF 2005 does define good quality education and I must point out here that a former director of Homi Wawa Center for Science Education Professor Arvind Kumar was Stuart's role a very leadership role in defining the good quality education the document where this is defined is actually chaired by Professor Arvind Kumar it defines quality of education is defined in terms of equality it says the formal approach of equality of treatment in terms of equal access or equal representation for girls is inadequate there is a need to adopt a substantive approach towards equality of outcome where diversity, difference and disadvantage are taken into account good quality education must deliver equality of outcome not just equality of access it says another major concern is that quality school education has still not reached to a large section of our population there is no doubt about some islands of excellence but the large majority of marginalized groups socio-economically disadvantaged children do not get meaningful learning experiences in school which will give them a sense of dignity and confidence elementary curriculum design must reflect the commitment of universal elementary education not only in representing cultural diversity but also ensuring that children from different social and economic backgrounds and variations in physical psychological and intellectual characteristics are able to learn and achieve success in school the last sentence education must empower them to overcome the disadvantages of unequal socialization and enable them to develop their capabilities of becoming autonomous and equal citizens education of good quality is that which enables the disadvantaged citizens of our country to overcome the inequality and emerge as equal citizens now this is there in NCF 2005 which is legally mandated by RT Act 2009 which legally mandates good quality education for every Indian citizen and this sentence was written by Professor Arvind Kumar it says NCF 2005 has two very significant things to say about twin major concerns expressed universalization of education and quality in education are not to be regarded as two opposing needs we cannot oppose quantity and quality universalization and quality they are complementary and they reinforce each other quality cannot flourish for long in a society that is not based on equality and justice for all likewise universalization can be an empty slogan unless quality is assured for all NCF 2005 interprets the quality dimension specifically so now we can raise a question what do we mean by good quality science education that talked about good quality education now let's come to this subject of science education I think all of us will agree that these are necessary first is that all children now must be comfortable with science second is that all children should learn science by understanding all children should learn science by the method of doing and questioning because that is what leads to understanding and fourthly that all children should be developing scientific temper so now we have to talk about not just promoting scientific temper after RT Act we have to talk about universalization of scientific temper which is a different ball game so the RT Act with NCF 2005 is a legal mandate for promoting good quality science education on a massive scale in other words for universalization of good quality science education and therefore because scientific temper is a part of good quality scientific education it provides for universalization of scientific temper so it raises the question as to what can be a content for good quality science education it can begin with natural science and the question is raised and has to be raised can we create the resources for good quality science education in every school in every state in every district every part of the country now there was International Year of Astronomy 2009 which took up a program which can contribute to this effort it was called universalizing the universe and that was taken up by all India people's science network what is universalizing the universe it says that the real world is a powerful source of science learning which is far more powerful than any book or any internet resource or any you know thing that you can do with a TV screen this real world is available around every school and hence universalizing the universe we use the term universe as the real world around every school in every village in every town the sky the soil the water the plants the animals the community and we note that rural government schools have a far richer real world environment than most of the elite urban schools so in that sense the resource base is far richer than many of the elite schools so what is universalizing good quality science education this was discussed in depth in a consultation which was in Pune in 2015 which was organized by with many organizations participating and it was decided that let's start building this in the coming months and years as a collective effort of all like minded organizations and children will now explore the real world with self-constructed equipment Arvind Gupta's treasure trove is there how can you integrate that into the science curriculum so there is a wealth of resources but what we need is a selection process and a curricular selection that is a selection of experiments to suit the national curriculum which is well defined I might mention here that a team at love and beauty is working on this very systematically and we are very you know grateful to the garda foundation which has partially supported this effort and hopefully within a year or so some significant suggestions will be given in this direction a collection of experiments by which children can learn which is done with easily available materials with equipment that they make themselves some of the team members are here today and they are not only from Maharashtra they are also from Guwahati and other places of India so what is the criteria for selection there has to be a wow factor when the kids do it they must say wow it has to be low cost or no cost but then it must go from wow to why and how and that transition also has to be possible so we have to select with those criteria in mind and it has to be transacted by every school teacher and student and finally it should be freely available open source so once it is done everybody can do it at no cost so how do you validate these materials do we do it by a committee of experts or is it done by a community of teachers who actually do the experiments and give feedback by a community of students who actually do the experiments and feedback clearly the last two criteria but then there is a question of how do you integrate scientific temper along with these natural science wow activities and I think for that what we have to do is to also make available other material which is very important to the development of scientific temper for example Dr. Narendra Davulkar's lectures which are available in video but they have to be dubbed in languages and taken and you know to other states readings and materials for building scientific temper our own scientific contributions the real scientific contributions that India has made that scientific history has to be part of science learning in mathematics in other subjects history of science not only in India but all over the world that is it highlights a point that we need to go beyond natural science within the science curriculum if we want to build scientific temper can we conceive of universalization as a scientific process by a scientific process we have eliminated smallpox we have eliminated polio so can we eliminate ignorance can we eliminate communalism can we eliminate bigotry by building scientific temper as a through a scientific process who will be the stakeholders for this can we build a scientific community for universal good quality science education that is a question which all of us are posed with now these are some examples of universalizing the universe from IYA2009 this example is 1995 solar eclipse at Pune Chenewarwada mass science campaigns are very important of course and there have been many campaigns in which all of us here have been part of including Homiwawa center Navanimiti all of us have been part of all these most of the workshops for these campaigns have been initiated here at Homiwawa center transit of Venus 2004 international year of astronomy 2009 TOV 2012 and a large number of low cost self constructed equipments are there which give a lot of very interesting experiences these are children in various rural areas and adivasi areas of India who are using these equipments this is a school here at the Abhi Goregaon school at Goregaon where Jatra was organized Huma Ketu Aishon Cha Nimita Ne Jatra Jatra in which all the students participated as resource persons as well as the parents came there so there was a community involvement and here are the school students very proudly showing the nano solar system which they have made I will not tell you what is the nano solar system but 3 months from now hopefully this is going to be part of a much bigger project called Kognik zoom which we will launch you can see here they are explaining to their colleagues what it is all about every child becomes a resource person but there is a need again I will stress to go beyond natural sciences because scientific temper is not only for the natural scientist for the natural sciences scientific temper is a comprehensive attitude for the whole world for all parts of reality and therefore only learning maths, physics, chemistry, biology does not lead automatically to a scientific attitude we know that there are brilliant scientists who are doing very good work who believe in all kinds of superstitions so it does not automatically lead to a scientific attitude there is a need to develop willingness to look at social issues and particularly critically at techno of scurantism and we have to recognize that there are very strong traditions of rationality outside science in our own Indian intellectual traditions and I would like to just give a few examples of that this is something that Gautam Buddha wrote he says do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations but after observation and analysis when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all then accept it and live up to it written more than 2,500 years back Swami Vivekananda he says astrology and all these mystical things are generally signs of a weak mind and therefore as soon as they are prominent in our minds we should see a physician take good food and rest superstition is our great enemy but bigotry is worse and then to believe blindly is to degenerate the human soul be an atheist if you want but do not believe in anything unquestioningly Bhagat Singh it is necessary for every person who stands for progress to criticize every tenet of old beliefs item by item he has to challenge the efficacy of old faith to analyze and understand all details if after rigorous reasoning one is led to believe in any theory of philosophy his faith is appreciated his reasoning may be mistaken or even ferocious but there is a chance that he will be corrected because reason is the guiding principle of his life but belief I should say blind belief is disastrous it deprives a man of his understanding power and makes him reactionary so nothing in the shastras which is capable of being reasoned can stand if it is in conflict with reason the importance the primacy of reason and he says faith becomes lame when it ventures into matters pertaining to reason but today we know that there is a very systematic assault taking place on rationality on those persons who have been in the forefront of articulating rational thinking and the ones that have been targeted are just the ones who have been doing this to public audiences to audiences of the common people first there was Dr. Davulkar then Comrade Pansare then Professor Kalburgi and now Gauri Lankesh who went to the public they did not write their articles just in scientific magazines in English they went to the public and spoke in Hindi, in Marathi in Kannada to the common public and they were the ones who were targeted because the whole idea was that the whole attempt was to try to prevent these ideas from reaching the common masses so our response has to be commensurate and we have to ensure that we have to take these ideas to even broader sections of the people and promote scientific temper more vigorously through scientific temper through science education we can reach every school, every college, every institute through universalization of scientific temper we can counter this anti-rational trend and this was the resolution that was passed when Dr. Dabholkar was killed we were meeting in Bangalore for Commit Ison and this was the resolution that was passed we take the All India People Science Network was meeting at that time to plan the campaign and we take inspiration from the life of Dr. Narinder Dabholkar and pledge to carry forward his work and ideals of spreading the scientific temper and opposing all forms of superstition and religious obscurantism we pledge to combat forces of communal fascism and terrorism acting in the name of religion which are active in different parts of our country today we affirm the values of the Indian constitution of scientific temper, secularism equality and democracy and will work to carry their message to every school to every town and village of our country and clearly there is a very close correlation, connection between science and democracy for one thing the scientific process itself the democratic process because everyone has a right not just a right but the duty to question without questioning there is no science science therefore needs democracy when democracy has been suppressed as for example happened in Germany that destroyed German mathematics that destroyed Göttinger University when these kind of tendencies came to power in Germany let us learn from that experience conversely and this is the point that we have in our country because we have a constitution we have article 51a we have conversely scientific temper in society can strengthen democracy so we have to respond to the attacks on democracy by resisting and expanding the democratic spaces we cannot promote scientific temper unless we counter the attacks on democracy but scientific temper itself has the strength and the capability to counter the attacks on democracy that is the important point as citizens of India and as scientists of course so to expand the democratic space the scientific the science academic community has an important role to play we have to of course strengthen science education but we also have to build a strong people science movement for this and understand that the people science movement is an important part of the larger democratic movement in our country and not just people science movement but all the organizations which are working for democracy workers organizations, trade unions farmers organizations, women, youth student organizations all of us have to come together if you have an if you think that politics is not within the framework of the scientific method then clearly you will have objections to working with all these organizations but if one understands that scientific temper is really the scope is very wide and you cannot exclude politics if you really want to be scientifically tempered then we have to work with all these organizations of course there are different forums there are forums in the academic institutions there are forums which are there in the people science movements and there are the public forums but we have the democratic space which we have to use in the most effective manner all the forums that we have so this was how the citizens responded to the killing of Gauri Lankesh we have some people in the audience here today who came to that meeting at Neriman Point at the Marine Drive and those people there wearing those caps Amisare Pansare those are members of my union and large numbers of people turned out to say that I am Gauri we are all Gauri in Pune there was a march for science just a couple of months back in Mumbai also in many cities in India and many cities all over the world there were these marches for science and in the bottom right corner you can see that Davulkar is an inspiration for all the people who came in that march one of the youngest participants in that march members of the Navdmriti team who were in Pune on that day and the posters that we prepared are highlighting the issues one here which Dinesh's holding says science is not equal to mythology science is equal to questioning experiments and progress many of these participants are here in the meeting in this hall today and of course Dr. Davulkar was a very important part of that march these are programs where after Pansare was killed public programs were held at various railway stations to distribute this handle here which says Amisare Pansare and it contains the writings of Pansare so those who are trying to prevent the spread of his ideas we ensured that more than 10,000 of these pamphlets were given to members of the public and we continue to hold these programs every year this is the cap that our activists would wear while conducting these programs which are very well attended and people really stood and listened very carefully to what we were seeing and it was workers, youth, women all came together as students to take up this campaign this is that bound up station and of course we were countering something we were saying that the kind of nationalism, one kind of nationalism which is based on religious hate politics that is not nationalism, that is pseudo nationalism and that was a statement which was made very strongly I would like to conclude I would like to conclude just before concluding I would like to show a short clip of Dr. Dabholkar on the issue of scientific temper okay so because of my understanding of intellect number 2 I don't understand the reason why the people of the world are working in this field I don't know what the answer is but I don't know how to understand it number 3 and I have proved the truth that the people of this world are the people of this world number 4 means if you want to make a decision then you have to listen to the scientific and the rest this is the reason why the people of the world are working in this field this is the reason why the people of the world are working in this field because of the evil power that means I can't do anything and because of the evil power I can't do anything the world will police me so if you aren't understanding a scientific and mental phenomenon then at the end of the day people remain curious that there are Gods and nashiva pra fordi santi prarad karnavalpa matchajadhanadan manjyajana when you are talking in thisія clearly that Vajnayanik Dushtikon Kale Parentha, Manus Bharatandra Hota, Vajnayanik Dushtikon Akkala, and Manus Swatantra Jhala. Vajnayanik Dushtikon is the chain of self-sufficiency, the work of taking the hand of self-sufficiency. And the work of taking the hand of self-sufficiency is the chain of self-sufficiency. The work of taking the hand of self-sufficiency is to establish a scientific temperament. Spirit of reform means the foundation of the mind. And humanism means that one must have a certain knowledge and skill. I was in Pune and I was privileged to release this book. This is called Vigyan Anisamaj and it has two articles by Davulkar. Also the article by Mayank Bahia translated into Marathi and some other articles. Now I think these articles, these his speeches, the transcripts of his speech, they should be there in every science curriculum. You can see what he's talking about is very much what we mean by scientific temper. And so I have volunteered to translate these two into English and I hope they will be translated into Hindi and other so that we can reach it throughout the country. And I would also like to make in conclusion two other proposals. First proposal is that just as we have a science day, all India science day, which is as you know February 28th, that is observed all over the country. That is related to Siviraman's discovery Nobel Prize. So we should also decide to observe an all India day of scientific temper. And I don't think we should wait for the government to declare that day of scientific temper. All the science organizations should together decide that we will observe a day of scientific temper. And because there are many things for scientific temper that we don't need the government. If this government support is there, that's plan A, great, we can do it on a very large scale. But if government support is not there, plan B can go ahead also on a very large scale without any government support. And that is something that all of us here can, we decide to do it, we can do it. The second proposal which I would like to make as part of that, that is also something that can be discussed, is that we choose November 1st as that day of scientific temper. Because that happens to be Dr. Daburkar's birthday. Thank you very much. Thank you very much Dr. Montero for a very thought provoking speech, talk in which you have actually promised, whatever was promised would come out came. And since you said that questioning is an important part, so I hope you will take a few questions. So now the floor is open for any questions, comments, suggestions, anything that people want to share. Share. So if you please come. Yeah, sure. Yeah, please, I welcome. You quoted Feynman on saying that scientists are the ones who are trained how not to fool themselves. Touching the one community which actually is perhaps more trained than the scientists not to fool themselves, is the community of magicians. In the, in many other countries of course there are strong magician communities. Which have been helping scientists in order to specially train or specially teach people about how not to fool themselves. In India, what is your experience, has there been a magicians community which is involved in such matters? Yes, yes. You see, firstly I just like to correct, I did not say that scientists are specially trained not to fool themselves. And that is not what Feynman said. What Feynman said was that science is a long history of learning how not to fool oneself. Secondly, the Andhra Shraddhan Nirmalini Semitri and the Maharashtra Andhra Shraddhan Nirmalini Semitri has got many activists who go around all over the state performing miracles. And then explaining how those miracles occur. There is nothing miraculous about the miracles. So, yes, not just magicians but there is a good cater of activists who go to various parts of the state explaining what is really behind miracles, so called miracles. Please introduce yourself also while, so that we also know where you are coming from. So, my name is Latha, I have come from Bengaluru and as an educationist as a teacher say. I came across a school where this was a simple fight in the school. A few teachers did not want a particular room because it was very moist and damp. And therefore, the game they played was there is a ghost in the room so that the teacher is driven and the community believed it. So, in fact, in the municipal corporation school the strength dropped. This is the scenario. Now, how should the teachers, for example, they have to negotiate between the community pressure because the community is strongly believing in all these things. And here is the moral responsibility of the teacher to see to it that the children will come out of all these things and somewhere they begin to rationally think about all these things. In your experience, how should a primary school teacher and a high school teacher should deal with such situations? See, I do not think it is the only responsibility of the teachers to promote scientific temper. Now, with the Indian constitution, it is the responsibility of every citizen in the country because we are all bound by that constitution. So, it is the responsibility of every citizen to promote scientific temper. I think let us ask the teachers to do the job that they are interested with, which is science teaching. Let us ask them to do that job as best possible and to build up an attitude in the minds of the students that they will ask questions, they will not accept things easily. Strengthen the fiber which is needed for scientific thinking. And then there are other organizations which can take up the more controversial areas of scientific temper who are also geared up to take up such controversies who are prepared to face the consequences of taking up such controversies. So, all these organizations, the teachers community, the PSM movements, and the Shraddha Nibbulun Samithis and the trade unions, the women's organizations, youth organizations, all these organizations have to work together in a complementary way. There has to be a scientific temper parivar. Sir, are you saying that during such situations the people science movement, people should be called so that they will address the community, otherwise the child is in a fix. Here at home they are believing or some people are believing and here some teachers are believing, some teachers are not believing, many things are playing here. And then here the small young mind is totally confused whether to believe this or that. Confusion is a part of the learning process. We have to keep strengthening the ability to question, to arrive at conclusions. Yes, people will be confused. All of us are confused to some extent. That's part of the learning process. I don't think we should try to clinch the issue in just one shot. We should go along strengthening the basis for helping those students to resolve the issue themselves. Ultimately the children themselves will have to resolve that issue. At least that's what I feel. Hello, I am Sonawde here. Sonawde from Homebus Center only. Actually my question is on the same lines. To my thing, scientific temperament, creating a scientific temperament within a person's mind, whether it is a child or the adult, is a very very difficult task. We are not like I say material. We are not going to change the material quality like hardening of the substance. And the changing of the mind or changing of the mindset starts at a very early age. And the religion is responsible for all such kind of things. And religion exactly, whatever the things are there in the religion, they take conflicts with the science and the fundamentals of science. And that is why this conflict is going in the schools. One of the important thing is that the cultural hegemony in India is at the highest mode. So unless and until anybody tries to hamper the cultural hegemony, these things are not going to end. And that's why I think scientific temperament, removing the scientific temperament is not a very easy task. In certain community or in certain religion, it is transformed onto the mind. Like suppose the constitution maker, Dr. Babasava Ambedkar, he transformed the people from one religion to another religion. So in that community, it has come but not in the other community. See, you have raised some very important issues. But please understand that what I have argued today in my lecture is that science education can play an important role in universalizing scientific temper. I repeat, science education can play an important role in universalizing scientific temper. But I have not said that science education is sufficient for assuring the universalization of scientific temper. I have not said that. And I have not really examined that question in a scientific manner. I have just said that there is a need for us to take it up as a scientific process. I have given a very, very partial analysis here today. There are many other aspects which have to be looked at equally in as much detail, which because of the time that we had for this talk, I could only focus on a small part. But on the part of religion, I will say that maybe I as an individual, I may not accept religion. But I will not require that this should become something for the whole society in order to promote scientific temper. I will not require that because I think that if you look at our history, the promotion of scientific temper has been a part of our democratic cultural movements. And most and many of our democratic cultural movements in Maharashtra and outside of Maharashtra have been democratic religious movements. If you look at the contributions of Santu Karam, if you look at the contributions of Basavanna, if you look at the contributions of Narayan Guru, Sri Narayan Guru, this is very much a part of the growth of rationality in our cultural history. So I think we need to take a slightly more scientific view of religion. We cannot say that there is no room for miracles in the scientific temper. That is true. There is no room for miracles. But I think the line today has to be drawn not between religion and science. Today the line has to be drawn between democratic religion and science acting together and hate politics, religious bigotry. The line has to be drawn between secularism and religious bigotry. And there are many religious people in our country today who are working very effectively for secularism. Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Sikhs. So we have to distinguish between religious bigotry and secularism, between religious bigotry and a more inclusive adherence to religion. And it is everybody's personal choice ultimately as to whether or not they want to believe in religion. But yes, we have to draw a line between religious bigotry and hate politics and democratic politics, which is what we are trying to promote. Good evening, sir. Myself, I am Heema from Hyderabad. I would like to ask one question regarding higher education in our country. This is the example of IIT and so especially. So there is one, I have heard somebody telling, if his son did not get seat in IIT, he can get seat in MIT. So that was the quality of our students, especially Indians. But after doing that, they are leaving for some other country. That is, we have a craze for foreign countries. And even in our higher institutions, like in big institutions, if you are a foreign written, you have a very fair chance of getting job. Not that you have done post-doc in India or some Indian institution. So how do you think we can improve the quality of higher education in our areas so that people do not migrate to other countries living in India? That's an interesting question, but that is somewhat out of the scope of what I spoke today. If you want me to really examine this question, I will have to give another lecture. So I will pass on that question. The first awardee of this award, Dr. Bhaktavar Majan is there. So I think you will all greet her. Hello, sir. This is Ravi. So I do understand that you have said that scientific temper is a very important attitude to develop a nurture in children if we want to be effectively part of democratic process to question the authority, to question our own, to fight for our own rights. And science is one of the mediums, not the sufficient, but one of the mediums to nurture the scientific temperament in children. But you also said that just because you ask question in science, that is not going to nurture the scientific temperament towards the social problems or the issues which are around us. And one of the ways you suggest to include such kind of writings is the eminent social activist in the science textbook for children to get exposed to. But I want to just ask you that is there another way to accelerate this process of nurturing scientific temper, not only seeing science as a medium, but focusing itself on the scientific temper and basically effectively dealing with the social... Yeah, I agree with you. The point that you make is one which I agree with, that you cannot work only in the national sciences for building scientific temper. We need to take up social issues frontally and centrally if we want to build up nurture scientific temper. We need to address social issues. I agree with you on that point. And secondly, do you think that science should be compulsory as part of the curriculum up to class 10? As long as there are things which are compulsory like learning language, I would include learning mathematics and learning science also as among the list of subjects which are there in every school curriculum in every classroom. I would include that, yes. In the kind of situation we are facing in India today, we need standard operating practices. We want to reach lakhs of students. We want to improve our educational system in the shortest possible way. So we are not Finland. We are India. So we need to have some subjects which are there in all the school curriculum and language is one of them, also mathematics and also science. But maybe we can do it differently. Hello. I don't have a question but I want to keep something. Like Dabhol Karne from Andhra Siddharth Nirmulan, as we listen to some things today, but some people used to work in Andhra Siddharth Nirmulan. One of them was sent to me by an acquaintance of mine. He is Sanjay Muttakkar and he is an RCEP officer. We say that we should marry a girl from a religious point of view. We should see the idol. So he worked in Andhra Siddharth Nirmulan for the last 20 years when he was studying. After that he is the only girl. He has never seen a girl's marriage or any idol. He works in Andhra Siddharth Nirmulan. And he called his relatives in the house and married a girl from a religious point of view. The boy's family didn't even meet first. They told him everything. And he celebrated his wedding. My point of view is that when we think of science, we think that in our own lives, in our own lives, we believe in such things. We accept such things. This is also a question for me. And when my friend sent me from Bejali Bagh, that if you work in Andhra Siddharth Nirmulan then my friend has married a girl like this. And both of them celebrated and got married on the 30th. So in our lives, what will we accept these things? How will we accept them? When we name our children, when we marry them, when we die, or when we grow up in our homes, what kind of ways do we accept them? This is also a matter of science. Just like we have some things in front of us. I remember that. That's why I have kept it here. Myself, Pratik I.D. Sharma. A participant in teacher exposure camp in astronomy. I want to know that what are the initially steps to be taken to inculcate the scientific temperament in the strength who are studying in science classes, but are acquiring, making their career in defense, army, navy, etc. As it is a well-known fact, we can modify a number of materials for our desired application of research work. Then in that case, how can we modify the scientific temperament? I have a number of students who have got more than 80% and 90% marks and avail a government of India, 80,000 annually scholarship, but they are studying first admitted in BA. Then how can we take to rectify these problems? I think you have highlighted the problem. Among the suggestions that I have made in the lecture today, I have said that one thing which contributes towards the development of scientific temper is that we should encourage and give the students the confidence to ask questions. That is one thing. The second thing is we should encourage the students to read the writings on scientific temper by people like Dabholkar and many others. Professor Wahia's article, there are many very good materials on scientific temper. That can become part of the science course because scientific temper is part of good science. So by exposure to such articles, and not just articles, now we have lectures. I have not shown you the whole lecture of Dr. Dabholkar. Very interesting lecture. He has given this in one in Pune, one in Panvel. But that video is available. So on supposing we observe this day of scientific temper, maybe on 1st November or any other day, let us decide that we observe this day. On that day, these videos will be seen. These videos will be circulated on WhatsApp. These videos will be shown on TV through such exposure and also in our traditions, the other aspects which are strengthening rationality. When we do that on a large scale in a systematic manner, it will slowly lead to the development of the scientific temper. Of course our Indian constitution is a very strong document. And if your students are going to defence and other government jobs, one thing they should really understand, not just as a formality, but really understand our Indian constitution. How did it come? What were the discussions through which that Indian constitution took shape? The Indian constitution itself is a very strong document for reform, which Dr. Ambedkar, Jawaharlal Nehru and all the others contributed. So we have to enlarge these spaces. Now what has happened is that we have put them into corners and they are not part of our discourse, but we have got to enlarge these spaces, bring it into our discourse so that this becomes a part of everybody's thinking process. Good evening, sir. My name is Dharmendra from Ayurveda. Sir, I have been teaching for the last 20 years in science. We have been taking children in various science exhibitions like National Children's Science Congress, inspired from district level to state level, state level to national level, taking the societal problems in the surroundings, giving the innovative ideas, concepts and all these things. When the students are going to this level, these certificates are not giving any priority in the engineering or medical field, whereas taken to the sports and the students go to the district level to state level, national level, the priority is given to the sports rather than the science. This mindset should be changed in our society, sir. Good point. That is, students who have excelled in innovative activities, they should get credit for their... inculcating scientific temper, scientific methods, but this mindset of the society, like bureaucrats, politicians, should be changing, giving more importance to the scientists, more important to the science subject, rather than the sports. I will not say rather than sports, but along with sports. Okay, first, Vivek, I don't think I need to introduce myself. You introduced me. First of all, congratulations. It's lovely to see you here today. Thank you, thank you. I change gears for my question, not on scientific temper or science, science education. You did make a mention about, and of course we all recognize the important role of science in the society today. And you did make a mention, and if you extend that idea, it extends to the close linkages between science and social sciences. Absolutely. You also made a mention. In the Indian context, and we all, excuse me, and we also recognize that science is extremely intricate and it is complex, especially if you look at nuclear sciences or biotechnology today. That's one aspect. For social scientists, they are not trained in science. They are trained to only a certain extent in different aspects of science. What I feel, there is often a conflict between the social scientists who are not well versed in intricacies of science and scientists, especially in a country like India. What are your views on that? That's a very good point, that there is a need for training all academics, not just the natural science academics, which is what I had highlighted, but also the academics and teachers in the other subjects. Everybody needs to be, to understand what is scientific temper. And in fact, now we are mandated by our constitution, because every citizen, now it is not just the scientist, every citizen is mandated by Article 51A to promote scientific temper. So yes, social sciences is an area which also deserves very serious attention and that is something, so that is something which we have to think about. It's just a brief announcement because I just got this information. This talk was live broadcast on the web, but unfortunately that did not work because our broadcast server crashed due to the load. So I think there was very popular, there were many requests, I think many people wanting to see. The entire talk will be put on YouTube and it will be available in fairly good quality, I can assure you, and you can tell your friends and others this. Thank you very much. Thank you. Now we will take just a few more questions. Sir, I want to ask you a question. My name is Surya. Like the ma'am said, the worst affected area is probably not the science but the humanities subjects that are taught in the schools. Like science, you have the facts and you can verify it, but if you change the entire history books, so how do you approach that scientifically? What my question is that scientific approach depends on the facts. You change the entire facts where rationality will develop. That's a very important point. In fact, history is an area where there will be and there is a very important contest which is taking place between rational history and something which is posing pseudo-scientific history. Pseudo-science is something which wears the garb of science because science has got credibility. So it puts on those clothes and comes out as a so-called scientific. But I think there is enough strength in our country, in our history, academics to expose this pseudo-science which is taking place in the name of history. And today there are also many other means of ensuring that this accurate information, reliable information is available and is reaching to the broader section because there is internet, there are websites. It's very difficult now to... You can change textbooks, but textbooks can also be re-revised. A government comes and revises a textbook, but the government can be revised and we can re-revised the textbooks. So this is part of the democratic process and we should strengthen the hands of the reliable and verified and those who are willing to come into the domain of critical scrutiny. That is so-called contribution to history. They are never willing to come forward and face a critical scrutiny. So let's keep that as a criteria. Let's constantly keep that critical scrutiny going on. I think that itself is... But that's a contest which is going on, certainly. That is part of the democratic process, yes. That is part of the democratic process. The learning process that our country is going through. So my name is Pandana. Actually, I'm an alumni of IIT Bombay. So my question is this... During my research years there, I've seen my colleagues... They are quite good at the research things, but when it comes to the religious or some facts, they don't take that in a very scientific manner and there are few students, even my friends, so they even mix up the things. For example, when we are doing an experiment and something turned up quite differently. They think one of my friends while depositing a thin film got a colourful thin film, actually. So instead of finding the reason for that, she said it's quite a good colourful feathers of peacock. Could be the Krishna, something like that. I mean, it's not that she's not good at the research part. She's quite good at it. So my question is like this. We are one of the best institutes of India and we are like the future of our country with the young scientists. So the thing is, if this is the thing, at the mass level, yes, quite good moments are going with that to get the scientific temper at the mass level. What about at the colleges, like the young scientists or students like us? In fact, it's not that we have tried to give our reasonings to say that this is not because of that, this could be because of it, to show them the reasonings, but it didn't work. So you might have come up with the people like this. How did you actually deal with it? Is there any moment that we can go with the young scientists or the college students at the school students' level so that they can develop the scientific level, something like that. See, one of my points which I made during the lecture was that it is not easy to be scientifically temperate. It is not easy to be scientifically temperate. But I think that even your friend, if you had asked her the question that, okay, this is what you have observed, this is what you have said, do you think that that what you have said is the scientific reason why that color was there? You could have asked her that question. Do you think it was a scientific reason? She would probably have said, no, no, that's not a scientific reason. Then you could ask her, okay, what do you think is a scientific reason for that? That's enough. As long as people understand the difference between scientific reasoning and other beliefs. I don't think we are here to destroy other beliefs. What we are here to do is to encourage scientific reasoning, particularly in areas where scientific reasoning is very important. So we have to build up slowly. As I said, the lines are not between science and religion. The lines are between democratic thought and anti-democratic thought. That is where the fight is today. Good evening. My name is Chaitanya. I'm a PhD student here. So you quoted the Buddha. And if I'm not wrong, I think the Buddha has also said that, don't follow me because I am saying things. Follow me because what I'm saying makes sense to you. And I couldn't help thinking. I mean, when Dr. Dabholkar was speaking, he was a very charismatic person. And I think as someone who is trying to lead this movement for inculcating scientific temper, you need to be charismatic. But at the same time, you also don't want people to follow you simply because you are charismatic. Absolutely. So there is this, I think, this kind of tension that exists. I'm wondering if you have ever faced this and how do you deal with it? See, I think individuals don't achieve much. Ultimately, it is the teams which deliver the outcomes. It's not individuals. But individuals can contribute effectively as part of a larger team. Everybody can give their best. So that is what we have to focus on. Building large teams which have a common understanding, a common approach, and working as a large team. And then, of course, when individuals like Dr. Dabholkar come up, they will make a very big contribution. But the important thing is that when they are not there, also the work will not stop. The work will go forward. Thank you. I'd like to once again thank all of you who are here today. And also, Homibama Center for Science Education for giving us this opportunity to interact. And I would only like to ask your opinion on the last question which I had made. Do you think we should observe a national rave for scientific temper? Okay, thank you. Thank you, Dr. Montero. Now it's my job to give the vote of thanks. So in the list of people whom we have to thank is, of course, Professor Brijarora, who has instituted this award. And Professor Sandeep Trivedi for felicitating Dr. Montero. And the Homibaba Award Selection Committee, which also did a job of going through the nominations and selecting Dr. Montero for this award. And, of course, as usual, the various departments in TIFR and HBCAC came together, such as the Accounts Department and various, the PRO. So we have got publicity for this event. And various, all the people, Professor Montero's family, his friends, well-wishers, all those who tried to log on and could not. But also, all the administrative staff also have been very helpful, especially the canteen. And so talking about that, please join us for high tea. Okay.