 We're gonna talk fun governance and how we all work, okay. I think that's good We gave people an extra minute to kind of sneak in here. It's actually nice to see this many People here because this session, you know, generally we do it at the end of the conference and it's really all about Showing that we have this lovely technical board here. That's kind of responsible for the overall technical strategy direction of the whole CNCF organization and just kind of show you that like hey We're accessible you could talk to us ask us questions and we also kind of talk about how This organization is structured and and you know the reason we kind of do this on a repeated basis is because one of You know one of my latest lessons in life or one of my mentors was like well, you know When you become a leader you kind of have to like repeat shit all the time for people to get it, especially New folks that kind of come in so we kind of you know repeat things and then kind of make sure people really know How we work as an organization. So it's gonna kick things off. You know, my name is Chris Anizic I'm a CTO, you know of the organization help start it You know think like eight and a half nine years ago now and it's kind of grown to this amazing global, you know Community we even have grown the TOC over the years to 11 now from a lovely nine group people But it's kind of you know kick things off, you know, generally we'll start with a bunch of kind of introductions Who these folks are, you know, where they work and kind of maybe their involvement? You know with with CNCF So go ahead. We have 11 folks, but only What seven here nine? All right, go ahead. Hi, my name is dims. I work mainly on Kubernetes and container D I Get paid by AWS My name is Duffy I've been involved in the communities community for a long time helping people understand how it all works and also I work on I work at icinvalent on psyllium and those sorts of things Hi, my name is lensa. I'm the head of open source as solos I will see people from my company tell them I'm appreciated so I can continue to be employed Hi everyone, I'm Nikita. I got paid by we are very by broad called Part of the CSF to you see I'm part of the Kubernetes community. I'm also one of the chairs for Kupcar Hello, everyone. My name is Katie. Come on. She apparently I get paid by Apple I represent the end user community in addition to that. I'm part of the the tab or technical advisory board as well Hi, my name is Casey John Yeah, I have been working in the open source community for over 10 years from OpenStack to CNCF I'm part of I'm one of the leads of the newly formed cognitive AI working group and Yeah, I work at Intel as a senior principal engineer Hi, I'm Ricardo. I lead the platform's infrastructure at CERN And I've been doing Kubernetes for quite a while together with other people at CERN Mostly focusing on our large-scale workloads I'm a member of the technical oversight committee and also the end user tab in the technical oversight committee I'm one of the representatives of the end users My name is Emily Fox. I chair the technical oversight committee and I am the security lead for emerging technologies and security community architect at Red Hat Awesome. Yeah, I forgot to say Emily is the chair and kind of leader of the group and Nikita's vice chair, right? Yeah, perfect Cool so to kind of get you know how this generally works is we'll kind of go through a little bit of kind of governance of how CNCF structure of the organization works and then we will go kind of I May ask some kind of interesting questions to kick things off Although this crowd is fairly large. So all y'all may have fun questions. So I kind of may start there So we'll do a quick five minutes house. Hey Kevin. Come on up. We need to get a chair up here. No, how do we? How do we make this work? They're kind of like attached right you got to like pop them out Please stand by how many very bright engineers as it takes to figure out how to Get a chair here Only dims is enough. Yeah, thank you Thank you dims perfect and Yeah, no, sometimes we have overlapping duties during this conference, which is a little bit difficult Okay, Kevin, you want to say a quick intro and a little bit about yourself what you do? Hi, I'm Kevin. I Started my contribution to Kubernetes since 2015 and I also Helped to initiate it some of the CNCF projects. I got elected on the TOC this year. So really excited and hopefully I can contribute more to the Community Thank you Kevin and good to good for you to make it So yeah, we're gonna do a quick little like how to see and see if work How is some of you know the the sausage is made and kind of how things work behind the scenes because I think it is important For people to understand that how this, you know, organization is structured So, you know, we the kind of main philosophy we've always, you know, had both in links foundation and CNCF as we We separate governance from the folks that you know join as members, right from the technical governance The technical stuff is always kind of Independently elected. These are folks that generally do the work or recognize an industry. This is the TOC There's 11, you know of them now and then we have a End user tab that has recently been former and user community that's existed for a while But the tab is a as a new thing and so you have kind of these three things You have the kind of business governance boring business stuff, you know, how the how do we spend the money? You know, how do we invest in cube cons and you know, yada yada, then you have the technical oversight committee Which is separate, you know, truly focus on technical decisions Which projects get accepted which projects don't get it get archived sets, you know Strategic direction regarding technical things and then the end user tab which is focused on What we call end user companies. So these are your companies that are generally not large cloud providers, right? These are folks that do not sell cloud native services. These are folks like a, you know In in adobe a Tesco a supermarket. I don't know what the supermarket chain in France Oh monopry monopry monopry It's like folks like those that that are end users and they kind of have a voice and kind of give feedback and Whole idea is these three kind of, you know, separate bodies all work, you know independently, but together But the coal coal thing here is like we we separate the funding governance the business stuff from the technical stuff So those things are not little too intertwined. So that's kind of how CNCF is structured, you know behind the scenes, you know constantly feel like I have to repeat this But yeah, everything is kind of done in a reason. It's important to kind of separate both the technical things from the funding things You know, we've been kind of Stuck with, you know oddly scaling challenges ourselves over the years, you know when we first started we had nine TOC members Didn't really have a notion of like working groups or or kind of break out streams And as we grew from one project to to two to four to a hundred and eighty four 185 now if I check as we have to kind of go scale out our work Not everyone is an expert in security storage networking sort and so on so we decided to create Independent kind of little work streams and groups that focus on certain things that represent our cloud native community So we have a lot of different things called CNCF technical advisory groups that covers Security storage you kind of see them on this list here Contributor strategy and how we become, you know improve contributor strategy and make it more welcoming for folks to contribute to things Even like environmental sustainability, which is an important topic and in my opinion if you're truly looking to get involved in the CNCF technical work outside of just joining a project as a maintainer or contributor Join attack it is the first perfect place to kind of get open They all have open public meetings just like the CNCF TOC does everything is Available online things are published to YouTube minutes are out there So generally get involved there first especially if you have a future desire of becoming a TOC member It's one of the best ways to to kind of get involved and and contribute I'm not going to really talk about proposing projects because people always ask I kind of get my projects in CNCF We have a variety of different processes and the documentation has improved significantly According not not according to but due to the hard efforts of Emily I think especially and and other TOC members that have kind of stepped up So we'll skip over that so before we start asking questions before start, you know Entertaining questions from from the audience here is a little bit of history lessons So when CNCF first started in 2015, we had this terrible architecture Diagram of like what is actually in scope? What should CNCF host and for some of us have been in the beginning it was an interesting debate, right? You know, obviously we knew Kubernetes was gonna be at the core, but you know, should we accept container run times in The beginning we're like no like out of scope spicy spicy topic and so if you kind of look at You know this picture here the things that are in Blue, you know, but light blue, you know, you know, blue are things that we considered originally in scope run times You know SDN surface mesh stuff all out of scope We have evolved a little bit based on member needs the community needs and so on and eventually now like obviously you saw Solomon here today Like we we host Docker engine container D. We host Creo and all the like we've expanded scope to Rise with the challenges and problems that all y'all had in deploying cloud native software So now we have grown to you know insert our favorite kind of meme here I don't know who on the TOC first came up with this thing But like we've kind of definitely have expanded and it's been a bit of a Challenge for the TOC here to kind of figure out what's in scope Especially if we get closer to the kernel level right when you work with the kernel You know you kind of have a kernel space boundaries with sometimes run into interesting license issues But we're all all about really kind of supporting and growing kind of the scope of the organization to meet You know a lot of your needs and you know You have to work with us and provide feedback to these lovely TOC members to kind of support things But this is kind of the the meme here and you know, maybe before I Open up the maybe this is kind of a good segue to start opening up in questions So I have a set of questions for the TOC pre you know that I haven't shared them shared with them Which is always fun, but you know since we have like this is probably the fullest room I've ever seen for a TOC panel, especially at the end of a cube con So maybe I will go turn it over to you know all y'all and maybe you will start with some You know questions for our esteemed TOC members here. So let's let's let's let's do that. How about we do that? Let's do that. Do we have any questions raise your hand and we're gonna go figure stuff out Maybe I have to go there's a microphone actually right in the middle aisle if you all could Thank you, Emily. Yeah, if you get in the line if you want to you know, yeah, and So hi, I have this pretty popular like open source tool and I was thinking it's a CPU power a CPU speed and power Optimizer automatic optimizer for Linux, right? And I was thinking like How like would it benefit CNCF or if it became a part of the group or what does? Qualify project to benefit the whole ecosystem or how does this work? like So the the question I think that you're saying is like I have a project that you know had that CPU profiling information or something like that and in my interest I'm potentially interested into contributing it to CNCF. How does that process work? How do that has it to see determine if it's in scope and so on so yeah I think maybe I'll let someone want to speak but essentially they have to they have to both vote on Accepting a project, right? So there's a body of 11 people and they need to have a Duffy you want to take it go far. What is even qualified like if I was thinking about this like, you know Yeah, one of the one of the again kind of coming back to the tags Multiple technical advisory groups that are usually focused on specific domain areas And if you can piece together like which which of those domain areas the application that you're looking for there You're working on or that you want to talk about would be associated with that it'd be a great opportunity To come to that tag and present this information to them And then you're gonna get a lot of feedback from the tag around like, you know Whether that whether they think it would be a great fit whether the you know like where in the ecosystem They see it would work They may ask questions about like the the form of it. Are there multiple people contributing to it? What's the maturity of the project? It's or etc But it's a really great place to begin to kind of get the feedback. I think that you're looking for Yeah, it has already like over 5,000 stars when you get up like 70 maybe even 80 contributors So I was thinking like where could I take this next? So a good next question to ask yourself is doesn't meet the definition for what it's cloud native So on the TOC repo, we do have a definition of cloud native It recently got approval from the governing board to be updated. We just need to merge it into our repository That's the first step just as Duffy said go have a conversation with one of the technical advisory groups to determine whether or not Your project is a good fit in cloud native. The other thing that I will say is not all cloud native open source projects Will necessarily want to come into CNCF or may necessarily fit We do have certain expectations of our projects as they reach maturity and part of that Contribution to CNCF and joining the foundation is the commitment to abide by and to conform to those criteria and expectations Awesome, I hopefully that answers your question. And yeah, I mean profiling is of course important We you know, we had an announcement this week open telemetries. Oh someone. Oh, you got a question. Oh, sorry Just one quick thing. I think tag runtime could be a good place. I see one tag Do you want to just like that's Rajas? I don't know if there's other tag runtime people here But as an immediate next step you can reach out to him to talk more Yeah, I think this on CPU profiling I think is very important features because you know, you have that profile, right? Then, you know, you can guide that profile information can guide, you know The schedule or how to schedule the workloads right to have better Performance and also cost efficiency. Yeah, I agree with Nikita I think tag runtime could be the tag you start with and then you talk with them Get their opinion get their recommendation in the review and in terms of the material level you can apply as a sandbox If you think it's a experimental you're at Experimental on stage or if you think you already have some, you know adoption some customers You can try on incubate as apply your project, you know as incubating level Yeah, thank you. I will definitely do that because I think it could yeah reduce the cost with that sustainability So I think it's it's a good thing and if it was running on data sensors like I think it's a good outfit, but I thank you Thank you. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you so much. We have a next question Hi, my name is Madhav Hi, my name is Madhav. I spoke to some of you already But it's hard to find people that keep cons. So I'm here to annoy you again So my main question was, you know, we have these sort of newer trends that are coming in almost every three to five years Earlier it was was a McKinney still is now. It's like AI and who knows what will be next but one thing that one trend that I'm starting to see now is Folks in just like industrial research or academic research They sort of agree that cloud native is ubiquitous in compute So they're tailoring some of their innovation towards cloud native itself So for example a one project that most of you might be aware of is it is the Ray project right for LLM serving and training and all of that And they have a cloud native sort of counterpart to it, which is Kubrick and Kubrick presented at tag runtime CMU started a wasm research center, right? And you have all of these like so many other examples So my main question is how do we get Folks doing research innovation and cloud native tech and like research To talk more to our foundation over here I like Nikita and I tried to work on this a little bit, but it's sort of we weren't in the right place So I'm sorry. I'm looking for a little bit of guidance on Where this can happen one avenue I thought what was possible was that end user tab because these are the folks who can give direct feedback But yeah, I'm just looking on some guidance here Yeah, we are thinking about a concept called exploratory working groups a time-bound Specific thing about a specific technologies and try to get people into the same room You know create a slack channel mailing list and get people working together So, you know stay tuned. We'll try to do something like that So that people it doesn't matter what the new technology is coming We have a structured way to bring it on and get started and get people together in a room Yeah, maybe just to add to that. So you mentioned the end user tab. So this is pretty recent It's being kicked like the last couple of months, but One thing you can look at is also there are dedicated end user groups in the in the CNCF So there's several of them dedicated to different areas financial automotive dev ex, but there's also one for research It was very active. It got a little bit slower now, but we're about to kick it again. So This is exactly the area where these discussions were happening We would get end user focused discussions where people would present their stacks Describe how they are solving their actual problems with different projects like slur and desk and then we see Where the gaps are on the cloud native stack But also what's the innovative ideas that people are coming with for example? Q is a good good example of that. It actually the first presentation of Q was was that the end user research? Group so these things kind of grow organically from also discussions on and user groups And also, yeah, I would like to add that, you know, we have this AI working group So I think that Ray or coupe Ray will be a great also good fit to that So we really welcome you to join that working group. We have By weekly meetings and then you know, we all the published one by paper, right? We're still going to working on, you know, next steps what we we have some plans But we like the community feedback. So you are very welcome to join that I Like how this question lines with the title of the talk of our presence here like looking forward in the next 10 years What it's gonna look like and one of the things I'll say about this community Is that it's constantly surprising me with its ability to forward to look into the future and to and to be forward-looking, right? And it's a it's a cycle right every time there's something that it's new that comes along as soon as there starts to be Interested in it I feel like this community is gonna be one of the first to hear about it Whether it's the community that's primarily focused on Kubernetes because it has an infrastructure need Because it's the marketplace that we have that is like, you know, basically just an innovation center for anything that comes along So I feel like we're pretty well aligned with with at least seeing it coming I think there are two points I would like to make perhaps to continue Ricardo's point We have an end user tab town hall, which is going to be today at 2 p.m Where it's gonna be a perfect fit for you to interact with our end user organizations and as Ricardo already mentioned when we have a Group that is focused on research in academia and that may be a perfect fit for for your use case And I think in addition to to daffy's point here as well when it comes to Trends and innovation and perhaps Emily's point on us updating the cloud native definition I think we're trying to create consistently the space where these new technologies will be able to create and well have a landing space to begin with and hopefully evolve and Lead the cloud native evolution forward. So, yeah, definitely reach out to you to the end user end user tab and in regards to everyone here if if you have any Kind of use case for cloud native. I definitely encourage you to reach to the tags They have a lot of working groups that are Looking for that end user perspective quite a lot and this is ongoing and for example tag environment sustainability they are using well, they're actually in a position where they're looking for use cases and All of these perspectives that end users can provide So there's always possibilities to reach out as an end user not only to the end user tab But provide that feedback to the tags directly as well Yeah, I think I agree with everybody said the only thing I want to add is if you are not already on the cnc Slack join us. That's where you find the TOC the tags and the tabs and also I highly recommend you to maybe submit to one of the upcoming cube calm I believe the CFP is open. So if you're doing something really really innovative in research Speaking on the stage. It's the best way to find out who else is interested in your topic and who else might be Interesting collaborating with you Thank you, and just to end the we have a poster pavilion for the first time here So which if you know you participate in academic conferences, you're very familiar with kind of these poster sessions so you could go submit Yeah, yes, I didn't walk by enough. I must have said sorry, but yeah, we will probably keep those for future keep cons Okay. Yeah, I think I think the experiment worked out next question. Sure What are you most excited about for like 2024 and this kind of goes back to Duffy's question And on the flip side, is there something you're kind of dreading? Yeah, I can bring some fancy questions So for me the most exciting thing for the TOC in 2024 is our new due diligence process and the new criteria It's been a long time coming and it's taken us Way too long to go through a better clarity to projects on what our expectations are and what do we actually mean by their criteria? The moving levels task force we launched last year to go through and do those updates Was really instrumental in getting maintainer and project member feedback on where we were confusing them and causing more Challenges, but we're also hoping the new due diligence process will streamline the amount of time TOC members commit to doing this And hopefully reduce our backlog of projects significantly The thing that I believe I dread the most is what the next problem in the ecosystem is going to be that is going To be a reaction by the TOC to try to handle we've gotten ahead of a few things recently And we're starting to see less and less of those problems But I always worry the next cube con about a month before there's some big blow-up I'm waiting for North America For for my part, I think that the thing I'm looking forward to Is the momentum around a lot more of the you know being able to move things forward being a lot more clear in that language exactly to that point and I Think one of the things I probably dread is I know that we're and it's actually kind of a dread and and look forward to thing one of the challenges we have is in Breaking the perception that open sources and something for everyone like there are people out there working that could absolutely be contributors And they don't see the opportunity in front of them And I really want us to be able to like break that perception I want everyone to feel like they can feel like they can be a part of it again. I really want in the coming year that we actually Do some work to remind people that like a lot of times when you're trying to find the next professional thing when you're trying to find the next job If you are out there showing your work in open source It's gonna be a lot easier because you don't have to prove yourself in that interview cycle people already know who you are You're you're you're a known quantity. So I hope that we can convey that All right, so I'll add something because we had projects in community. I would add to end users So one thing I've been in the TOC for a bit now one thing that we always struggle struggled is helping more end users navigate the landscape And there's there was a lot of effort last year to form the the technical advisory board for the end users And one of the goals is to set up reference architecture so that people have some sort of help And they don't all not everyone has to try everything for their individual use cases I think this will be very complicated to achieve, but I think it's a challenge that that will be super interesting for this year Yeah, I just want to say we've talked a lot about AI in this coupon Talk about it again but I think one of the reasons why I'm looking forward to what we do in this space is because Kubernetes and cloud native has become a little boring and infrastructure is boring and should be But what's getting a little bit more interesting now is how we support AI workloads and also how we Incorporate AI into CNCF projects because no one's really talking about it And even if the discussions are happening, it's happening in smaller pockets And they're like there've been a lot of sessions that have been visited a like attending in Kubecoin and people are doing good work But then there hasn't been a lot of instances where we've been like, okay, we can use this in production And that's fine. This is a good time to be. It's interesting. We're doing experimental work There's research happening in the space as well Up there from working group a I Kathy I was like a lot of people are there here from working group a I and there's a lot of interesting work going on So I think building up on that and it's just not a hype Cycle and then actually doing the work towards it and making that boring like making cloud native an AI boring is something I'm looking forward to Reading I guess like maintainers are facing burn out left right and center and kind of making sure that we Tackle that we ensure that it doesn't get worse And we yeah, just making sure that doesn't get worse. I think that'd be an interesting problem to solve as well Wonderful. Thank you all for your work Can I add one more so I worry about We have to be relevant for a long period of time for you all So we have to be there for 10 years for 25 years and like how do we make sure that the projects are in a good state? So they can continue and more of you show up and help us stay Show us your patience and your skills and your interest and we need to turn that into actual things that we do in the projects and tags And everywhere so if you need to be there for the long term for each other, right? So that's one thing that I dread I Keeps me up and right. Thank you I would like to add that I think I would like to the next year 2024 from STOC we can connect the challenges and problems or pinpoints facing by the end user when using the Clownity infrastructure to run their AI workloads again. I'm talking about AI again. So either it's inference or training Because now I feel it's not easy for the end user to do that. So there is some there are some gaps here So we can connect that with you know, there are also some quite some projects coming up, right? So how we connect these the dots? That's that's one thing another thing I think I would like to see more is how we integrate the cloud native of Occultation we saw underlining hardware because now it's not integrated where right you have different Wonder has different architecture different GPU architecture has different CPU, right? Different API is it's not easy for the end user to you know to use we cannot expect AI scientists or developers to know the ins and outs of you know all the hardware architecture So we need abstraction layer We need consistency of APIs that you know abstract away the complex complexities of the hardware and Provide a simple user face to the end user Thank you. Yeah I'm gonna I'm gonna call a five minute warning and there's two people in line left So let's try to squeeze them in and if we have a little extra time will go so sorry sorry Lynn Okay, I have two quick questions. The first one is is it you to see also planning on holding Existing projects accountable to the expectations that was said when they got into CNCF So to give some more context around this There are there can be layers around it right like things like other implementations or like release notes in place or Governance body is around the projects things like that. So so let me answer that one real quick According to the TOC repo. We do not retroactively apply changes to criteria to existing Graduated projects. I'm going to say that with a huge asterix However, we have started to see some graduated projects that cannot maintain their health or their stability And when that does happen the TOC pays attention and we start having conversations with the project to how to get them healthy When we do that we take learnings from changes to the criteria Observations of very successful projects and we use those as recommendations to get them back on the right path So while it's not a change in the criteria for them. It's an encouragement for them to do better Awesome, and let's yet one more question. Yeah, thank you for that The other one is on a lighter note some of us from tag runtime and our friends from tax storage met last evening for a social dinner So what came up was usually the tag TOC interactions at Kube cons have been mostly through meetings So you wondering from for next Kube cons if you can have like some socials for That's I'm happy to answer that will make something work. Okay. Thank you. Thank you Awesome one more question. We got a few minutes. So perfect This is my first Qcon in person that I've been watching for many years from Australia And I felt very welcome and thank you for all your work over the years. It's a great community you've built My question is maybe a bit simple, but I was just wondering what the overlap or division of authority and Responsibility between the tags and the SIGs are so for example, if there's a conflict Or a different approach between SIG network or tag network. How does that work out? Well, we can start by saying the audiences are slightly different SIGs are part of the Kubernetes community and ecosystem. So they are unique to Kubernetes They do provide best practices that often influences cloud native practices as well as cloud native tags Provide best practices that can influence Kubernetes. So it's kind of like a sibling partnership and rivalry on occasion But it's a happy partnership that we work through. Yeah, so another way to answer the same question is SIG network usually has to write caps. So and caps everybody is welcome In the community whether it is tag network or folks end user tab or Any anybody who is doing networking or a vendor? They are welcome to comment on the enhancements process proposal and We iterate over it over a period of time. We leave it open for some period of time We you know, it's all it's a well-connected community. It's the same set of people That are spread over different things, right? Like so there's a bunch of people in tag network or also in SIG network And there's a bunch of people who are in SIG network who are also part of vendor community as well So they all talk to each other, right? Like so we don't let it get to the point where you know, there's a huge problem One example is there is we've had CNIs for a while. So there is a new proposal That's called KNI. So then what does it mean for everybody? So there is you know, maybe it does maybe it doesn't right so People have to figure that out. So the proposal is out the community processes on in the community site and you know the comments and Questions and things are welcome from everyone. I Also, I don't think we had enough time for the last question Which was around like what everyone is looking forward to in 2020 for and I know Kevin Is a container for a lot of CNC projects. I also want to hear from him on what he thinks about it. Yeah, actually I I participate in the SIG as well as the tags in the past. So I feel like actually You are always welcome to join both and the slightly different focus is that for example tags have some the other responsibility for example, like boarding more Projects and they're looking for Projects outside the the foundation what they are doing interesting if they can come and collaborate with more the other Projects for example, and I think that's kind of very Helpful to expand the community force. Yeah Awesome, and I think that will take us and hopefully we'll see you at Cube Day Australia later later this year We'll be coming a little bit closer to you so To wrap things up since we're at time. I want to you know, thank the TOC here. They do incredible work So it's a it's a tough job some of them get a little bit of time at work And they all work above and beyond I think they're normal work duties, so let's you know, give these folks a hand I truly respect what all y'all Thank you for attending and hope all y'all feel that we're truly very accessible you could always kind of find us in the Hallways join the slack Join to see meeting. We're all open and available for all y'all. So thank you very much and enjoy the rest of kubecom