 All right, so I want to start with one of my favorite Zen stories I feel kind of that it cool. I can tell a Buddhist story in India And it's about these two traveling monks. We have the wise senior monk and his young apprentice As they're walking down the road they come to a village and there's just been a torrential rain So now kind of washing through the main street through this village is now this river from all the water That's been coming down over the past several days and as they approach this new water feature in the town They see it come across a nobleman on One side who needs to cross Now he's dressed very nicely and doesn't want to walk across So he's yelling at his servant. You've got to carry me. You've got to pick me up carry me across this water I can't get my clothes all dirty But the problem is he's just been shopping and all his servants are loaded down with these fancy packages So they hear that they've got to carry him. So one of them goes to set the packages down and The nobleman says what are you doing? You can't put those packages down in the mud You know how much we just spent on those you can't get those dirty So now they're a little confused. He wants them to carry him across But they can't put down what they're carrying So in the midst of this confusion the older monk walks up to the nobleman scoops him up and starts carrying him across the Water now this nobleman isn't too happy about this and he starts complaining How dare you touch me you filthy old man? Don't you know who I am blah blah blah? Etc. Etc. This does not seem to faze the monk and he continues across the water eventually getting to the other side and setting the gentleman down Who continues to complain and yell at just about everyone and the monk continues on his way followed by his apprentice So they continue walking they go through that town they go farther down the road And eventually they make camp and they're having their modest supper when the apprentice Just can't hold it in anymore and he says master. Oh, I can't believe how that man treated you You're so wise and well respected doesn't he know who you are? And he goes on and on And the master stops him and says I set that man down hours ago Why are you still carrying him and we can do the same thing with our ideas and our practices There are things that we hold sacred that might be getting in our way that we just can't put down And it's easy to change practices or easier to change practices Then the beliefs and ideas that underpin those and there's certainly good reasons why we hold on to them Maybe they've worked for us in the past. They've been successful. They're comfortable. We know how they work Maybe it's just someone told us that's what we're supposed to do so we do it and we've stopped challenging it So it makes sense that we hold on to these things, but we're when we're in this mode We can feel like the hammer in a world full of nails And that's not a bad feeling like I got this boom boom boom. I am the perfect tool to solve this problem Unfortunately when we open our eyes or often have our eyes forcefully open for us We realize that the world is a little bit more complex than that and the single tool is no longer the right one to get the job done So I think it's certainly not a stretch within this audience to say that change is not optional. It's required Einstein said we cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we use when we created them We have to think differently and while we can often focus around Changing the world around us changing our context, which is important We also know that we have to change ourselves internally in order to prepare for change and that's what I'm going to focus on For the next, you know, 40 minutes or so I'm going to talk about six key elements that will help change how we think that will help us with Positive change and those elements are humility empathy ownership Awareness opportunity and reflection. I know six is a lot to remember So if you have a challenge, you have the easy acronym for all this is he or Okay, it's a lousy acronym, but anyway humility empathy ownership awareness opportunity and reflection. So let's start with humility Before any change is possible. We have to be willing to admit that maybe we're wrong Okay, maybe not completely wrong, but at least there's a better way of doing or working or addressing the problem that we're currently facing now unfortunately We're not wired that way Ray Dalio the author of principles fantastic book Calls his radical open-mindedness this openness to being wrong and he believes that it's more important How you deal with what you don't know Than what it is. You don't know I was getting ahead of myself. Like I said, we're not wired for this. We have confirmation bias Our brains look for things that already agree with what we believe So we have to work harder to find these counterpoints to our current beliefs What I find really fascinating is that when our core beliefs are challenged the same part of our brain activates as when we're physically attacked And an example I use in the US So you might have to use a little bit of imagination here because I don't know of an Indian example, but in the US You know our the founder of our country was George Washington So obviously he's highly revered and now when our country was founded 1700s, etc dental Practice was not what it is today. So a lot of people wore dentures and there's a famous story of George Washington having wooden teeth Most kids have heard this story. So now We know what teeth he has because the museums have them. They have his dentures So he didn't actually have wooden teeth. He had a set that was made of gold lead hippo ivory and some other animal teeth All right, you can probably you know, we can accept that it's not that different than wooden teeth animal teeth feels a little bit weird But it's not too challenging to our core beliefs as George Washington as a good man But when people also hear that he had a set of dentures that were made from slaves teeth That's harder to accept it challenges our identity Even as Americans if our founding father had a set of dentures made from slaves teeth, that's really uncomfortable But when we in our own work, we can find ourselves challenged by similar ideas and that's how our brain reacts as if we're attacked We get defensive. That's normal now going back to Dalio his suggestion is To find the most believable people who are likely to disagree with you and try and understand why they believe what they believe And what he means by believable Well, I'll say by example I've been in the UX field for more than 20 years if you want to talk about design patterns or user research I have a lot of experience. So I'm fairly believable if you'd like to talk about DevOps. Well, I've been around this community for a while So I have some high-level understanding about DevOps But honestly my opinions are not very believable. I don't have the experience to back it up So again, when you have questions and you're looking for input find the people who are most believable They have the experience they've done the work and whose opinions are likely to be different from yours and figure out Why they believe what they believe Now it helps if we have the right mindset Many of you may be familiar with the work of Carol Dweck who talks about a fixed mindset versus a growth mindset Now if you have a fixed mindset you believe that you are the way you are and you don't change So if you fail or succeed, it's innately who you are, right? If you fail it's a character flaw and it's because you stink and if you have a growth mindset You believe that you can learn new skills and failure is an opportunity to get better Now what's interesting is in different parts of our lives We can have a fixed mindset over here and a growth mindset over here But as we start to become aware of these we can move ourselves in more of a growth mindset direction One of my favorite examples of this is a friend of mine was working for Let's say a very large shoe brand that you've probably heard of and early on in this company's growth They were Getting a lot of revenue from affiliate marketers So that's where you know someone a smaller site will put an ad and they direct people to the the brand and if people buy Then that smaller site gets a little bit of revenue Now as this brand was growing You know they're this person saw you know a lot of our Profits are going to these affiliates. We're getting to be a big brand people know who we are Do we need these people anymore? So at one point he decided to cut off the program And it cost the company twenty million dollars. How many of you have made a twenty million dollar mistake? No one good. I'm glad to hear that How many of you think that your team would respond? Well, if you did make a twenty million dollar mistake probably not many luckily this person was not fired But they learned from it. They took this experience and Created a VIP program just for affiliates and was able to use that VIP program to grow the affiliate marketing to be 50% of their revenue Took that massive loss learned from it more than made up for it in how they grew and changed and evolved and for myself a personal experience about 10 years ago a little more than now when I was early on in my Personal Agile journey. I did a workshop with Jeff Patton. He's brilliant And it was a workshop on how to initiate projects in a fast way kind of design product sprinty kind of things that we talk about now He's going through the workshop and he's laying out the activities like well. This all feels pretty familiar And at the end I was like, you know Jeff you said this is gonna be fast, but this looks like six eight weeks of work It's kind of like what we do now in like waterfall design process So how long do you take to do this? He goes? Oh, yeah, I do this in two weeks My first reaction was you're freaking kidding me There's no way you do this in two weeks and that was my fixed mindset Taking over now. Luckily when having a day or two to reflect I get back to work the next Monday and I start thinking well He's pretty believable He's got the experience So how could this work? So I started said it set out an agenda like how would I structure this to get this done in two weeks? and I took a lot of his exercises and some of them I swapped out with things that I was a little bit more familiar with but accomplished the same thing and Wow, I had this Agenda that looked like it would fit in two weeks and I tried it out on the software startup I was working for and it worked really well So I did it with other companies and it worked pretty well and then I started hearing. Yeah. Yeah two weeks is too long Wait really for something that's critical to your business. You won't spend two weeks on it. No no two weeks too long All right, growth mindset again chopped it down to a week Further I've chopped it down to three days. So again when you can listen you can respond you can learn you can grow That's your growth mindset Now one way to kind of notice that you might be in a fixed mindset is how you respond to conflict We all have conflict or disagreements with other people, but when you are disagreeing with someone Are you seeking to convince them like you just convinced you're right? That's more of a fixed mindset Are you seeking to understand why they believe what they believe that's more of a growth mindset? You might learn something and also at least if you understand where what their position is if you still believe that your Opinion is correct. You'll be able to convince them better because you'll at least understand where they're coming from Everyone believes what they do for a reason they believe what they believe for a reason if you can understand that reason It's much easier to connect Again my personal experience As someone who's been in this field for a long time, especially the design field I go to a lot of conferences and sometimes I would see a speaker that maybe I didn't completely agree with or let's be more Generous and say I agreed with them but maybe I thought there was an important nuance that they weren't quite communicating to the audience and My need was I wanted the audience to learn as much as possible Now I at least had enough self-awareness not to be the person to raise their hand and contradict the speaker or not ask a Question but give information. I want them to own their talk and And have that be their their space so okay Well, how do I get my need met of seeing the audience get the information while being respectful of the person who's given the presentation? So I thought ah What if I ask a question where the obvious answer is What I think people should know Okay, I get my need gets met audience gets information and I get to maintain the respect of the person who's speaking And so when this comes up about 80% of the time the answer is exactly what I would expect and about 20% of the time The answer is different and then I learned something So you can also look for where you're uncomfortable again when you feel that discomfort it might be a trigger that You know, this might be a little bit of fixed mindset going so you can try and open yourself up You can think about all of your practices. What do you do now if you thought about changing that practice? How does that make you feel do you feel open to that or you maybe feel a little defensive? Are there things that you do that just haven't changed in a long time your process feels a little frozen? Again, maybe it's still the perfect way to do it, but maybe there's some opportunities there And then what are the things that you sort of just dismiss off-hand someone says something like la la nope not open to that again? Good trigger that maybe it's just worth investigating that reaction and seeing what's there and challenging that All right, so that's humility moving on empathy We need to have a deep understanding of the needs of our team our project our customers in order to know What types of experiments would actually benefit them? We need to be able to feel their pain because when we're while we're trying to level ourselves up We're not leveling leveling up for our own sake. We're leveling up for the sake of our teams and our customers It's not about us alone. You know, I'm sure you've all heard the whole there's no eye in team Yeah, yeah, well there is it's in the a-hole. Don't be the a-hole Moving on Next we'll talk about ownership you have to be willing to own your team's success Sorry, it's more of an American reference, but You have to believe that you can make a positive difference that if it goes well You have a part in that and if it doesn't going what go well, or it isn't going well There's something that you can do to have a positive impact as an example If I thought that my team would benefit from user research and they said we don't want to do any of that I could either say ah come on Don't they know how valuable this is and the benefit they're gonna get out of everyone who's anyone is doing good user research It's their fault. What a bunch of idiots I can blame them or I can think huh. I can take ownership and say well Maybe I'm not doing a good enough job Connecting the value of what I'm proposing to the goals of this team Or maybe I go even farther and say maybe I don't even understand the goals as well as I think I do Maybe I need to investigate that a little bit better so that what I propose will match And really support what's most important right now and maybe research isn't the most important thing to do right now Maybe there's something else that I can do but again, I have to take ownership for that result When we start thinking that way it often leads us to step out of our roles a little bit I one thing I've often done is lead retrospectives It's certainly not within the job title of the UX guy But as an experienced facilitator, it's a way that I can help out my team Going back to conflict We tend to have a lot of it you know, there's that team that's getting in our way or that stakeholder that makes our life difficult or whoever it is if they would only just get in line our lives would be easier and While it may seem like our small goals are in conflict typically if we take a step up We're on the same team our enemy is not them. It's outside of us. It's the marketplace. It's our competitors We have to find a way to work together so that we can be successful as a whole One way we can do this is with ownership. How can we take ownership of the problems the other people have? Maybe it's their obstacle which is preventing them from delivering to us So maybe we can help them fix it one it might break that bottleneck and then again We get what we need but the very least when you help other people They tend to want to help you back So by understanding what other people need even if it's outside of your own team you can often Everyone will get what they need and things tend to flow better All right So we're humble we know we can be better We have empathy for who we're trying to serve whether it's our team or our customers we're willing to take ownership of positive change and making it happen But what do we do? So that's where I think we come to awareness like what are the options because I don't think we need to invent everything a lot Of times there's stuff out there that would be perfectly useful You know lean talks about getting out of the building And I think generally we can just think about that as getting out of our comfort zone How do we learn new things whether it's reading books or articles or podcasts or meet-ups or conferences? These are all places where we can expose ourselves to new ideas and I would say don't limit yourself to just Your own industry your own practice see what other people are doing. It's great to see Dr. Sengupta and think about oh, what is transportation and science looking at there's lots of other interesting domains out there that we can learn from so Investigate those and when you find an interesting practice steal it Bring it into your practice. This stuff's usually not copyrighted. Anyway, it's ideas that people have so figure out What can I steal? What can I borrow? What can I riff on that's going to make my me and my team more useful? Now you may need to tweak it a little bit, you know something that someone says may not be a perfect fit for your current needs But my guess is you can adjust it a little bit and try it out All right, so we're humble we think things could be better we have empathy for who we're going to serve We're willing to take ownership. We have some ideas for experiments. We could try How do we structure the opportunity so that it's most likely to be successful? Because the reality is as much as we say it people don't like change We're comfortable in our in things that are familiar So unless you've got like one of the best teams around you might have to think about how you introduce a new experiment How you create the right timing? Because people will have resistance You can think about where is that resistance most likely to come from Who is going to be most effective affected? Sorry, who might be most threatened? How could you smooth that transition out? One strategy I like to use is figure out who's the best person to introduce this idea So maybe I went to a conference and I see a development practice. Oh mob programming sounds really cool I think that would be really beneficial to my team now the UX guy advocating for mob programming again I'm not terribly believable However, you know, there's a senior developer on the team and he loves trying new things So maybe I sit with him and I say hey, I was at this conference I learned a little about mob programming and this is how I think it would be really useful and if I can get that person excited and Point them in the right direction and they go learn more. Well, then I also know it has legs if they're like, yeah That doesn't sound very useful. Okay, maybe my idea wasn't so good But if they get excited and they're believable and then they can be the one introducing it to the team Now it's more likely to be adopted doesn't have to be my idea. I just want to see the team moving forward One of the things that I really like a coach. I worked with a while ago use the language of experiments, right? Well, let's try an experiment because it doesn't work very well to say on Monday at 8 a.m. Show up for your scrum and doctoration I mean training Right, that doesn't feel very good. But hey, let's try an experiment if it works. We'll do more of it It doesn't work. We'll do something else. Let's just try it for a little while Give it a shot a little harder to say no to that invite people along When you're trying to affect change, I think it's good a simple model is BJ fogs Equation around behavior change the behavior is motivation ability and trigger So if you want people to do something new or they motivate in the right way and Intrinsic motivation tends to be better than extrinsic motivation. Do they have the ability you know whether it's training equipment? Environment, etc. Is the ability to affect that behavior there and are the right triggers there to remind people until it becomes a habit? So something to think about And I talked about introducing change Timing is everything Dan pink in his book when talks about temporal landmarks as good Times to introduce change and temporal landmarks just tend to be The beginning of a period You know one of the simplest is at the beginning of a sprint, right? We do a retrospective at the end and we try a new process at the beginning of the next sprint But there's lots of temporal met landmarks Next quarter at the after the next project milestone or hey when we get back for vacation or after a holiday Let's try something new or Mondays. There's always another Monday coming So you have an idea on Wednesday. She said hey, let's start it on Monday That gives people some time to be prepared for it, right? When you set that that trial date in the future gives people time to get used to the idea of that change as opposed to let's start now Ah, not ready for that now future. I can deal with now. Hmm too scary Some other scenarios that I found useful are when you start a new project or you're in a new role So company I joined a number of years ago and about right when I joined they were about to kick off a big initiative And the product owner was fairly new to product ownership So I went to her And I said do you have a plan for how you want to kick this off? And she looked back at me. She said no I said, you know, I do this thing. I was talking about that. I derived from Jeff's work. I do. Would you like me to do that? Yes She was in a new role. I was in a new role new project great time to try something new Not only did it work really well for that project But it worked so well that I started doing it for other parts of the company and we introduced it as a practice political capital When you're serving other people and you've earned their trust they will trust you when you make a recommendation So I tend not to go in in the beginning and start to say here's all the changes. I want I start try I start by helping other people and when they say hey that person that guy really helped us a lot Then when I want to introduce something new They trust me because I've helped them and they're more likely to listen And the last two are the the ugly ones if a team is stuck We're having an existential crisis as a company then people are almost like we'll try anything We're open to that and I've been in that disaster Scenario where we either make this agile transformation work or there's no way this company is going to survive. Yeah, okay Well, we better get this right all hands on deck. Let's do it The other thing I'll talk about and it's a bit of a dark pattern is fear And it's not one that designers tend to use a lot because we tend to be very positive thinkers We want to make the world a better place, but a lot of stakeholders just want to avoid risk and I stumbled on this one. So when I was working for a company in online gaming So the online poker and our biggest market was France and France at the time was what you would call a gray market a White market is regulated a black market is illegal. The gray market just means there's no rules So you're not legal or illegal. You're kind of in the middle Well, the government of France said they saw all this money floating around they said we want that tax revenue Okay, fine. They're gonna regulate no problem Well, they decided as part of that regulation that They would Consider anyone operating in the country currently to be operating illegally So if you wanted a license, you're gonna have to wipe your membership database clean and start recruiting from scratch on day one That's really scary, especially considering that they were adding all these really Crazy restrictions around personal information and other things to create an account that had never been done in the poker industry before so this was scary for me and my hypothesis was that People are old customers would come back and they would try to create an account and they'd look at it go I don't want to give you that information. I've never had to give you that before I'm gonna go to one of your larger competitors And then they would get there and they would see the same information and go, huh They're asking me for that too and then maybe they'd read because no one likes to read and go. Oh, this is a government regulation I'm gonna get this everywhere All right, I'll give you the information, but they're probably gonna stay on the larger competitor not leave them and come back to us So that was a big risk. It was kind of this situation. You know what if we're wrong We're in trouble and all of a sudden when I never had money for user research before I had twenty five thousand dollars to go to France and test our actual users because there was a huge risk of failure so use it carefully, but It Fear can work. How am I doing on time where I got left? Anytime good. All right Reflection not going to go deeply into we have a deep tradition of retrospectives But when you've you've had the humility you have empathy ownership You thought of experiments you frame the opportunity you implement the opportunity you have to go back and say how well did that work? Did did we time it right? Did we deal with the resistance? Was it a good experiment? Did it match what we needed? Did I how was my ownership? Did it match the empathy the needs of the team? You know, we can go back and reflect on that again. We've got lots of traditions for that. I'm not gonna go into that so Humility empathy ownership awareness opportunity reflection now I appreciate you laughing at the beginning when I made my terrible acronym joke the first time I gave this presentation Woman came up to me afterward and she said I thought you were serious Really? She had a military background and she's got oh, yeah, that's higher earth orbit an area of responsibility It's like that's really cool Because when you're one to affect change sometimes you have to step back get into a higher earth orbit Look at things in a bigger picture, and it's good to know what is my area of responsibility? Where can I easily affect change and what's outside my area of a responsibility that I might be able to impact just as well Or I might need to influence other people so I thought that was actually a much better way than he or our To to remember this you can think about stepping back in a higher earth orbit and looking around in and out of side of your area of responsibility Now to help with this and because all the cool kids are doing it There is a canvas I will go through it briefly because everyone needs a canvas you can download this online I'll give you the the link in a minute. So it's another good way. It's just got the The six different things so you know you can talk about like Humility look at all the practices you have now, you know even just like keep a journal as you go through a week What are we doing? Which ones of those things do we feel some resistance about change or can we recognize that there's some value in changing of Those things that there's some value. How would that really impact the team? How does that empathically feel in terms of benefiting a team or their customer which of those might I or the team take ownership of? Now that we have a sense of that How can we generate awareness? Where can we go to learn more about what might help us? How do we structure the opportunity? Where's gonna be our resistance? What might our timing look like? How would we introduce this and then how well did that work? So just like a simple format it doesn't have to be linear You could start up here, but you might start with awareness. You're at a conference. You go. Oh, man. I heard about this great thing We could be better about that it would really help us and I'm willing to help drive it forward Cool. I heard about the thing. How do I introduce that and then move forward from there again? It's a good tool to help you remember it, but it doesn't have to be a linear process. That's the URL It's just a Google doc. You can copy, you know, it's a read-only, but you can copy it and then you know create your own version all right, so You're the best of the best because you're here you want to be better, right so All of us can still get stuck So hopefully if you can kind of keep some of these things in mind It will help you as you evolve and improve your own practice And sort of my last slide and then I'd love to open it up for kind of questions or discussion or maybe how these have played in Is that you know George box said all models are wrong, but some are useful So obviously this is incomplete But I hope at least these are six things and some things that are will be useful or helpful to you And with that, I would love to hear what you think. Do we have a mic that we can pass around? any thoughts questions So can you share an example of where this catalyst canvas can be used? I mean from your experience or what would be a right Case where we could possibly use this and get benefits out of it sure so for me It's kind of almost at any time you could say it's an experiment. Where are we now? And that's more of the investigation like what are what could we be develop some humility around where could we Get better you could start as an experimentation The other is again if you learn something new just use it as a validation that it will benefit my team I do think we can get better. Here's how it'll impact us. I think then the opportunity part is really the Interesting thing. How am I going to introduce this? What should the timing be? Where am I going to find resistance? It's really just a trigger because I know that the six things are kind of hard to remember So if a big piece of paper with some spaces on it is useful just as a mental exercise awesome It's also an experiment if anyone does use it I've used it a little bit, but as others use it I would love to hear how it works for you if you find it helpful or not so It's early on in its development so Other questions Thanks for the talk. It was interesting So as we know that there are various other canvases like the lean change management has introduced lean canvas business canvas Team canvas and in addition to that we have this new canvas just catalyst canvas Where do you think that it is it is the best fit? You know if I were to compare like the lean canvas business and team canvas Where would you see that you'll find the most value? Sure, and I think that's again, it's really in Thinking about your your personal and your team evolution because you could do it for yourself or you could do it for your team but I think that's sort of tangential or yeah tangential to some of those other things and And again, I largely mean it initially as a trigger like I just want to get people to think about these things Not that it's a it's a recipe that you have to follow So if there are if you feel stuck in some ways, I would hope that this could be useful to remind yourself of different a different approach that you could go about using to Reinvigorate yourself or your team around improving what I see with a lot of teams Especially when it comes to retrospectives is initially You know you're on this huge upward slope as the things that you're taking on are huge and you're making massive changes And then it starts tapering off as teams are making good improvements The changes get smaller as you hit that local maximum And a lot of teams just stay there and they're only dealing with small issues through their retrospectives I think something like this can help you think how do I find that next big jump? What's the next big stage of our evolution as a team? Because we're probably not the best in the world. We probably have another hill to climb So that's a thing another thing if you see those Retro items getting tiny to me. That's that's the signal that you're hitting a local maximum any other questions Yeah, I like the point you made how to spot changes, right? So The question for me. This is the beginning, right? So yeah spot changes and is that second step So this one question and the second one is you talk about in some teams. There's early adopters, right? But how do we deal? How do we grow the growth mindset? With others where it was majority peoples So how do you how to grow the growth mindset? What was the first one again? Uh, the second one. Okay. So what's the next step after the spot changes is the framework or this is independent techniques So how to spot changes and oh man, I have a really short-term memory. What was the second one again? I am so bad Yeah, one at a time. Okay. How to spot change it. So yeah I think this the intent is that it's more than just how to spot changes because when you think about that opportunity And then you implement it that and then reflect that second the bottom part of the canvas the last three values awareness opportunity and reflection are about actually implementing the change So the first part you sort of are am I open to change? Can I identify an experiment and then can I introduce it in a way that works? I think that is that second step is sort of part of that. I don't know but my answer I'm not answering your question Overcoming resistance Um, so right now it's semi-independent, but obviously it fits in with a large thing. Like I said, it's not a complete model Um Dealing with the resistance. I think it's good to be very gentle And kind of bring to gently bring people along because when you abruptly create change You just people will react negatively So I think that's it is one of the power of things like the temporal landmarks and the language of an experiment because you make it less Less Scary like, you know if I said hey, do you want to run a marathon tomorrow? Maybe you're a runner already, but that seems really scary. How about in a month? You want to run a marathon in a month? No, uh, next year. Do you think you could prepare you and I run a marathon? Yeah, you know when things are in the future They feel less scary now marathon. Obviously, that's a big commitment So again saying we're going to do something now right away big change. Whoa, that's scary But hey, let's talk about why change would be necessary Let's think look at the direction that we might go in Now let's talk about a practice You're sort of priming people and you're taking them one one step at a time and that can that also goes to understanding The type of people that are on your team the level of resistance that you're going to encounter because maybe it's the whole team You need to deal with maybe it's just one person out of that Any other question Any other questions? All right, well I'll hang around and if you have anything. Oh, no one more. Okay. I think we have time Uh, thanks for the great talk. Uh, this is slightly unrelated also. Uh, so we did talk about identifying a change And trying to grow that one of the challenges that organizations often You know face people within the organization when they want to bring about a change Is the question that's asked that what is going to be the like the long-term benefit Can you envision that for us? Can you project that for us? How does this approach cover that does it cover that or and if so how? I would say not explicitly Though I think part of the empathy process is you're thinking how is this going to benefit Uh, though, I think when we if we're approaching this from an agile mindset I'm a little less concerned about the impact a year from now Although I think of that like compound interest if I get one percent better every sprint A year from now. Okay. I don't know the math on that but a year from now. I'm going to be a lot better So I'm less concerned about How is this going to play out a year from now then are we going to make small progressive improvements? And sometimes they're big improvements, but you know, again, are we are we getting better from where we are now? I don't know what the needs are going to be of this team a year from now So I'm not trying to project out that far So I don't so I'm I guess I'm not answering your question But I'm also saying it's not tend to be tend to be not my concern. Maybe that's an executive concern I also think about this process as more within the team try to do things that you may not need permission for Um, if you do find you need permission to make a change then I would probably I'd dress that in the opportunity uh Bucket like in order for me to make this change This is how it would have to be structured and I would need approval from from these parties in order to implement What else? So there is one thing that I have Like observed or other experienced when I have taken ownership of a particular change that I want to introduce Is like the people are very reluctant to adapt that change And they try to be in their comfort comfort zone and they do not want to come out to the comfort zone Since this new idea does bring them out of that comfort zone. So how do you suggest that? What how can they can be brought out of it? So I'll tell you a story of a team I worked with a number of years ago It was an engineering team. They were really early in their sort of scrum adoption. They were doing four-week sprints They do planning poker by the hour on task and it would take them like three days to plan for a month-long sprint Holy crap. It was a pain and um, so I was playing sort of a backseat coaching role and I would make some gentle suggestions that are what we would all consider fairly standard and um, They would just look at me like I had three heads and I'm like Why are these people think that this what I would consider like a basic recommendation? Why do they see this is so threatening? So I put my user research hat on and I started going out to lunch with all these folks And asking them about their background and where they came from and what their experience was like Just so I could understand their perspective a little bit better What I found was that we basically had two profiles of engineers One of them had come from like the oracles of the world. They were used to these like multi-year gated processes and so for them a one-month sprint Oh my god, we are just zooming right along. They could not even imagine going any faster And then there was this other group of people that were these brilliant mit grads, but you know right out of school They knew how to code. That's what they wanted to do. They didn't have a sense of how How they worked was going to impact the value of what they're doing They just uh will give me something to do and I'll code it So now I understood a little bit about these two populations and I could communicate to them in different ways so For the experienced engineers who are used to the big process I had to be able to give them a vision of how it could be even better And once they could see that vision then they could move forward But until they could see that the practices that I was suggesting didn't make any sense And for the other engineers, I had to help them understand how How we worked was going to impact the value of what they did And then once I could communicate them in a way that made sense to them We were able to move forward that answer your question. Yeah, in a sense. Yeah, okay Um, all right. We do have five more minutes. I think If anyone else has any questions, if not, you can get a really jump on on lunch Or yeah All right. Thank you so much